Before I had my army of alts, a long long time ago it seems, I used to have a collection of people on my friends list to help me out with what I needed. Someone that could make bullets and arrows for me. Someone that could make enchants for me. Someone that could pick locks for me. Someone who could make gems for me. You know the deal.
It was usually cheaper to get the raw materials for someone to make it for me and tip them a few gold than to buy them already made at the auction house. In some cases I had the materials anyway, so it was most definitely more cost effect just to throw someone a tip to craft what I needed made.
Back in wrath the person who I had making my gems for me was a member of the number one alliance guild on the server, number two over all. We became friends over the course of that time even if I only contacted him to cut some gems for me at the start.
Years past and we ran into each other from time to time. His guild would do 25 runs on the weekend and I would bring an alt into them to get some play time in and maybe some gear. He was a really good player, as you might expect from someone who was a main raider in the best guild on the server alliance side.
His guild broke up sometime in mists I believe and he never really found a place to fit in right away. He stopped raiding to tend to some real life situations and joined our guild because he knew a few people in it. He might not be able to raid but as a quality player that was occasionally available so he would definitely be a good addition.
He never raided with us in mists and only started to show some interest in raiding again in the past couple of months. He was well behind in gear when he decided to join us so we dragged him along with us on our normal alt run of BRF that we would do once a week. We figured it would get him back into the habit of raiding and get him a start on gear.
He has been working his butt off since then trying to gear up. Running with us when we could bring him, running in pugs, running LFR, upgrading his crafted gear, buying BoEs. Basically doing all the things you would expect someone that was a seasoned raider to do to catch up and join the team once again.
We even had him come along on a mythic dungeon run the other night and he did somewhat well. Not great mind you, his item level is now higher than mine, but he did acceptable. He was pulling in the 30s, which is not exactly horrible even if his gear said he could do more. He was still rusty, still returning to the idea of raiding in general and we are a casual guild, we do not ask for perfection, just that you try your best and it sure seemed like he was trying.
He was once a great player and there was no reason for me to believe that he could not return to that status. So when we were assembling for a new heroic run of HFC I decided to give him a chance. I sent him an invite. He earned it. He has worked hard to gear up, he did okay in the mythic dungeon I ran with him by doing decent numbers and not standing in crap. So I figured it won't hurt to give him a try out in the big show now.
We wiped a few times on the first boss, mostly because half the people there that night had not done it before. As usually when wiping on something I looked for where we can improve and saw that his numbers were dreadful. I am not just talking bad, I am talking really bad. His best attempt out of the three we put in was 16K. The first pull or two I was willing to let it slide as I knew he has never seen the fight before, even in normal, not to mention we was quite a bit out of practice. Sometimes it takes a few pulls to get a hang of what is going on and for a casual guild that is fine. It is not like we are blowing through heroic already because we are not. Everyone is still in that learning phase.
I decided that we were not going to be able to do heroic tonight. Not just because of his numbers, but over all we did not seem to have the right team for it. We were down a healer so it was stretching what we had thin to begin with even more so with one of the three healers for 18 people being under geared to begin with. That, combined with some new people along with his under performing and another two people that you could call the "top DPS" types that seemed to really miss the concept of single target the terrors down fast I thought we would just move to normal and kill some stuff nice and easy and maybe get some people experience tonight. I'd yell at them later for trying to pad their numbers instead of focusing the primary target. It looked like most people there needed some practice on the fight anyway.
This saved him. If I had decided to continue along on heroic that night he would have been asked to sit. It was clear that if we were going to do this some changes would be needed and someone doing 16K and screwing up running back boxes was surely on the chopping block to be the first gone with whatever changes were to come.
I really hate asking people to sit even more so after I asked them to come for a test out. We are not an aggressive progressions only type guild guild, so I give a little more leeway usually. On normal his 16K would not hurt us. As long as he could handle the mechanics it would be fine to carry him and maybe the experience will help him out next time. It is also a better place for him to learn the mechanics.
Remember, as I said, this guy now out geared me. So I expected something from him. At least what he was doing in that mythic dungeon which was in the 30s.
We moved to normal and made it up to gorefiend before I was once again put in that position. His numbers on gorefiend were better, but can't really say how much of that was due to the 100% increased damage in phase 2 or the fact that he was just better off as a melee with a boss that never moves anywhere. As a piss poor melee myself I know I can do awesome when the boss does not move, I just suck every other time.
We wiped a few times, all to stupid stuff that is completely avoidable. I was the middle of the chain, the mage I was attached to came to me, the other person did not. Even after yelling his name on voice chat to come to me. Guess who that other person was? You got it, him.
He dropped doom right on melee 2 times. He did not run to the person he was chained to three times. He did not switch off the boss when I said multiple times adds were top priority. If there was a mechanic in this fight, he was messing it up. About the only thing good I can say was that at least he was consistent, but when that consistent is consistently bad, that is a problem.
The first time of the night he was actually doing respectable damage and he somehow forget that mechanics matter more. I would rather have his 16K doing all the right things than his 40K doing all the wrong things any day. It was a sad turn of events but I was forced to whisper him the inevitable. I said, your numbers are most definitely looking better on this fight but you are just not getting the mechanics. I will give you one more attempt but if you mess up mechanics again I am going to have to ask you to sit. I even explained again, in whisper directly to him, what he was messing up with and what he needs to do so he handles those mechanics correctly.
We pulled once more and he dropped doom in melee again and did not run to someone he was chained to again. I asked him politely to leave. We are not world beaters, we can not carry people, even more so on bosses we just started fighting to begin with. It is not like we are over powered for it or know it like the back of our hands at this point, it is only the second week we are doing this boss. And even if any of that was the case, these are mechanics where one person can screw the entire team and I could not have that happen.
After the wipe he walked out of the entrance and saved me the trouble of having to boot him by dropping himself. He traveled back to loin's landing and logged out, dropped off voice chat and I have not seen him since. I swear for a moment I felt my heart sink, the same feeling I think I would have if someone else asked me to leave. I felt bad for him.
This is a person that seven or so years ago I looked up to. He was a great player and someone I wanted to be like and here I was making him feel like crap by asking him to leave because somehow he just was not the player he used to be.
I guess it happens to all of us. We lose a step, we take a break and come back and can not find our grove. But for me, having to tell someone that they can not raid for us when they used to be someone I looked up to as the ideal of what a raider should be really hurt me inside.
Is this my future? Is this the future all raiders face when we start losing a step? Some day someone will ask us to sit because we just aren't good enough any more, not even for a casual guild. It sucks just thinking about it and it really sucks I had to ask him to sit. I feel really bad about it. I am just not cut out to be a raid leader any longer. Not when asking someone to sit starts to affect me. Once he was at the top of his game and now I am asking him to sit, how the times have changed.
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Yeah, that sucks all around. And yes, it will happen. I'm closer to 50 now than 40 and it is a reality that my reflexes are not nearly as quick as when I was 40... much less than at 20! I try to make up for this in a raid environment through preparation and knowledge, making sure that I'm always in the proper place, anticipating burst needs, etc. However, that only gets you so far. I'm hoping that I don't become a liability in this or future games anytime soon, but it will happen. Part of life.
ReplyDeleteWe all lose a step and need to do other things to try to keep our edge. Like you said, we need to be more prepared. Pay extra attention. We need to do whatever we can to anticipate to make up for the slower reflexes. Sad part is that it seem as if he was even trying to abide by the mechanics. That is why I was stuck asking him to leave. It was not like he was a few steps slow.
Delete"Sad part is that it seem as if he was even trying to abide by the mechanics. That is why I was stuck asking him to leave. It was not like he was a few steps slow."
DeleteAnd that is the reason I don't have a ton of sympathy for him.
He ignored the debuff on him. He ignored you calling it out over voice. He apparently ignored everything except pushing his buttons as hard as he could.
It wasn't a matter of him having 2 seconds to see a debuff and react, or 6 seconds to see it and it took 3 to notice so he didn't have time to move far enough...he just flat out ignored everything.
Now maybe it is some serious medical issue and that would be terrible, but in that case how far can Blizzard cater to that?
My guild has several 40+ year old Mythic raiders and a chunk of retired/casual members in the same age group who are perfectly capable of handling normal and heroic. Sure, some of them (the retired/casual members) don't perform quite at the level as the younger casual players...but normal/heroic is tuned lax enough that they're more than fine in that environment.
I would think that "normal" which is intended for friends and family, or people like him if you will, should be forgiving enough for him. I would not make the mistake of bringing him on a heroic again until I see he can keep up, but I really wish he could partake in a normal. I think it is partly blizzard fault for putting in mechanics that one person can wipe (or really hurt) the raid like that. Not exactly friends and family in design.
DeleteI am over 40 and I do just fine but I would not say everyone does. But I agree, age is not really an excuse. I am sure there are many players out there over 40 that can run circles around all of us in terms of skill in game. It is just a matter of knowing what you can do and accepting it. As it seems, he took it hard. He has still not been on. I do feel bad for him but I wish he would understand raiding is not about "him" but about "us" and if he hurts us, he can not come.
"I would think that "normal" which is intended for friends and family, or people like him if you will, should be forgiving enough for him."
DeleteJust to make sure I'm understanding you correctly: your argument is that normal should be designed so that people in the raid can completely ignore mechanics and just tunnel the boss.
Again, this is not some difficult mechanic we're talking about. He's not having to dodge Hans and Franz stampers or the raid wipes. He's not having to dodge every Thogar train or the raid wipes. He's not having to dodge every Iron Reaver Barrage or the raid wipes.
He literally has at least 8 seconds to notice and react to the fact he has a debuff WITH people telling him he has the debuff on Mumble/Vent/Teamspeak. And by "react" we mean "run five steps to some edge of the room."
"Not exactly friends and family in design."
I don't agree -- if people don't have to react to at least SOME mechanics then you're not raiding, you're doing LFR. Those mechanics should be more forgiving on normal (and they are -- you should see the difference between Iskar's winds and Mannoroth's Shadowforce on normal and heroic, for example), but they have to exist. And anything particularly complex is allowed to be chosen by the raid (like the Socrethar construct, Iskar dispels/interrupts, Kilrogg's Vision of Death, Archimonde's Nether Banish, etc).
What exactly are you going to argue next -- that your friend shouldn't be allowed to be devoured by Gorefiend and go to the stomach? Because if he is and he (again) ignores everything down there, it's really going to hurt your raid.
No, I am saying that it should be design that if someone screws up it kills "them" not the raid. It should be used to train them. Killing them over and over might train them. Killing the raid over and over again gets them kicked.
DeleteI do not disagree with you that is not a hard mechanic. We agree there. I am just saying that his mistake should not cost the raid. Friends and family type of raid should not be like that. If he screws up he should be punished, not the raid.
LFR, at least as it stands is harder than normal. At least iron reaver. With the lower DPS, lower heals, and lower awareness you find in LFR that boss is at least 10 times harder in LFR than normal.
You are totally reading the entire argument wrong, which you usually do. I am not saying there should not be mechanics for people to learn. I am not saying there shouldn't be some level of difficulty even if it is only introductory. What I am saying is that "he" should be punished for doing wrong, not the raid.
If "he" dies each time he makes a mistake he will learn he is doing something wrong. If the raid dies, he will just think they are doing something wrong. Even if you tell him, no it is you doing it wrong. He will think "well you died, I am alive, it was you not me". I am asking for the punishment for failing mechanics should be placed on the person that failed them in normal.
"Friends and family type of raid should not be like that. If he screws up he should be punished, not the raid."
DeleteWhy aren't you concerned about Gorefiend's Stomach mechanic? If your friend got chosen and ignored the adds, then suddenly you have a bunch of full health adds appearing in the main room. How about the Shared Fate mechanic -- the person in the middle is rooted and your friend would just ignore the chain if he was on one end.
I don't understand why you're singling out the Touch of Doom mechanic here when there's a *lot* of mechanics in that fight (and HFC in general and hell, raiding in general) where that can happen.
Imagine if he kept clicking on the munitions boxes for Hellfire Assault but never ran them to the cannon.
Imagine if he stood right on top of everyone with Artillery in phase 2 of Iron Reaver (well, if only 1 out of 3 people did that it might be survivable but imagine all three people did it).
Imagine if he pushed the Empowered Explosive Runes on Korm to the edges so they all exploded on their own.
Imagine if he was a healer and constantly dispelled Mark of the Necromancer on Council.
Etc.
Or does the argument not apply to healers? What about tanks? If a tank fails to do a taunt swap correctly should they die instead of the other tank eventually dying due to high stacks?
What if we go back to BRF -- if he's a ranged DPS and stands in melee on Flamebender, the melee group gets Lava Slashed and dies. Do we need to change Lava Slash? What if he AoEs too soon and kills some Kromog hands too early, meaning people get flung up and die due to his mistake -- change that too? How about him standing on top of people in Beastlord and getting massive Bleed stacks as a result? Blood Ritual/Rapid Fire on the raid in Maidens? Not bringing the Slag Elemental to the Elementalists, stacking on people with the Firecaller debuff, or dropping Melt at a bad spot on Blast Furnace? How about triggering mines, hitting someone else with Impaling Throw, slagging the raid in p3, etc, on Blackhand?
Are all of these mechanics bad for normal mode because someone can screw it up for others? How would you change them for normal mode?
"You are totally reading the entire argument wrong, which you usually do."
Ultimately what I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways.
Right now Touch of Doom is actually pretty forgiving -- you can have several players screw it up throughout the fight and work around the void zones. The mistakes make it slightly harder but it's recoverable -- ESPECIALLY if the screwed up Doom Wells are scattered around the room because different people messed up.
In your ideal world, that mechanic would just instantly kill your friend (how would you even accomplish that, by the way -- meaning how would you change Touch of Doom to work in a way you like) and the only way to recover from THAT mistake is a battle rez. And if you have more than 1-2 people mess that up (doesn't matter where in the room or what role) then you're out of Battle Rezes and will probably wipe. You're arguing for a massive amount of one-shot mechanics, essentially, in normal mode. Because if it doesn't one-shot them you have two problems: 1, it doesn't provide that "I failed and I died" connection you want and 2, it means the healers can *try* to compensate for his mistakes which drains their mana and we go back to the raid being punished rather than him.
And for most normal groups, being able to reposition/recover from messed up Doom Wells is far preferable and far more forgiving compared to having people instantly die if they mess up the mechanic.
If one person screws up the stomach it will not hurt much on normal. The adds die in 3 or 4 second max once they come up. Sure if I lot of people screw up it becomes a problem, but one person is not make or break on that mechanic. At least not that I have seen so far.
DeleteAny wipes I have ever had on that boss came down to healing, as in we did not have enough healers, or to bad placement. Never once have we wiped to adds. But everyones mileage might different. Different groups suffer from different issues.
As for why I am point out doom, as I just said, it is the main reason we wipe. Bad placement. Good group = good placement over lapping to take up minimal space = kill. Bad group = bad placement no over lapped and all over the place = wipe.
To me, at least from my experience with it. Doom is the only mechanic on that fight that matters. You also have to remember, people that drop doom in the wrong places are also the people that are more likely to walk right through it because they do not know how to avoid it. Sure I can walk around a badly placed one. I can stand in a different place, no problem. But if people are not raid aware enough to drop it in a good place, do you really think they are raid aware enough to avoid it being in the middle of the room?
Lets put it this way to show you what some of these people do that I deal with.
When explaining that fight I put a square marker for where to stand when phase 2 comes. Someone screws up and stands in melee and drops doom right on that marker. Phase 2 comes, I say on vent, stand to the left of the marker (because the doom is there of course right. Common sense to any raider that has ever raided if you ask me) but what does half the raid do. They F'N stand on the marker and die in the doom. When I say something on vent after the answers I get. But you told us to stand on blue in phase two. aaaahhhhhhhhhh
Sorry for ranting, and no I am not making that up, it happened, it really happened.
Yes the same goes for artillery and the like, the reason I mentioned doom, was because that is the fight I had to kick him out on so it was fresh on my mind and it was the reason I asked him to leave.
Actually, in my ideal word, how the doom mechanic would work on normal is this. If the doom falls off someone and has anyone else in its radius, it knocks the other people back (doing no damage and getting them out of the ground effect) and kills the person that drops it instantly, not healable or avoidable death.
That would teach them, do not drop it in the group, go far away where no one is.
That is how you make a mechanic like that in normal. It would teach the person they did something wrong my instantly killing them. Sure the group would have to deal with a bad placement but that is no big deal. There would not be more bad placements from the same person and there would be a real conciquence to placing it in the wrong place.
Admittedly, that still might not teach someone like him, but I'd think he would be more likely to notice he did wrong if it killed him.
Also, as you said, I would need to waste a rez on him, but I would not. I would leave him dead. If we end up killing it cool, if we end up wiping I say to him, do that again and you are gone.
Now, he would have died to it again, and knew he died and he knew why. So he could not use the excuse "its no big deal no one died and you can walk around it" because that is what he would say. Who cares if no one died, you caused unnecessary damage to the raid. Who cares if we can walk around it, we should not have to if you did not screw up the mechanic.
Teach people to do it right, don't teach people to make excuses. As it is now, they hurt the group and it just gives them a reason to make excuses like "you could walk around it" when the fact is we should not have to.
I would rather him die than have to keep covering for him screwing up. I want to teach people, not coddle them. If they can't learn they need to go. We need mechanics on normal that teach.
"Sure if I lot of people screw up it becomes a problem, but one person is not make or break on that mechanic."
DeleteSerious question: have you actually ever had one person go down in a small group and completely screw it up? Just saying that it can potentially be a lot of adds. Maybe it's still completely manageable even in a smaller normal group, I don't know. Of course, even if your friend doesn't go down he could get nuked by a skeleton if he doesn't run away (which also nukes the raid).
"To me, at least from my experience with it. Doom is the only mechanic on that fight that matters."
Very different experiences, I guess -- only time Doom was a major issue for any group I've been in was our first pull ever when no one had ever done the fight. Had newer/less skilled players screw up since then and place some bad ones but even a few bad ones never wiped us. Part of this may come down to having multiple people mess up once versus one person mess up repeatedly.
"They F'N stand on the marker and die in the doom. When I say something on vent after the answers I get. But you told us to stand on blue in phase two. aaaahhhhhhhhhh
Sorry for ranting, and no I am not making that up, it happened, it really happened."
I believe that it happened...but honestly I'd just move the blue marker rather than try to get a normal group to adjust like that. You can change their position mid fight if you're not aware.
"If the doom falls off someone and has anyone else in its radius, it knocks the other people back"
What if it knocked people off the side of Gorefiend's room? You can fall off the edges.
Another concern: it's actually a *good* thing to stack them if you can...a Shadow Priest Dispersing one on top of a Paladin Divine Shielding it would perfectly overlap two, take up less space, and neither character would take significant damage. Your proposed change means an ideal Heroic/Mythic strategy would literally kill the players for doing it right in normal mode.
"If we end up killing it cool, if we end up wiping I say to him, do that again and you are gone.
So he could not use the excuse "its no big deal no one died and you can walk around it" because that is what he would say."
I mean no offense, but why do you care if he tries to use an excuse? If he's going to ignore the raid leader and not do what the raid leader says, then he shouldn't be in the raid. Every other single person in the raid knows he screwed up -- it's not like you're having to convince everyone else he screwed up.
"I would rather him die than have to keep covering for him screwing up."
I wouldn't -- I'd rather a person be able to mess up Doom Well and them be able to learn right there and then they screwed up and *still* be alive to continue the fight. And if they keep messing up the mechanic for that pull I'll reiterate the problem and point it out to them before the next pull. And if they mess it up again then I'll remove them -- I don't care what excuses they try to make short of them having to go AFK mid-fight due to an emergency.
I guess I just have more faith than you do in people being able to learn. I'd rather not have mechanics so punishing (instant death) on normal because it is supposed to be friends and family and it is supposed to be more forgiving.
Again, I mean no offense, but it kind of sounds like you basically want the game to take some of the responsibility off your shoulders as raid leader at the expense of making it more difficult for most groups. I get that raid leading can suck (I've led every difficulty of raid from 10 to 25 man to Normal/Heroic/Mythic and I've been raid leading since Burning Crusade) but your proposed solution makes it harder for most raids and I think most raid leaders vastly prefer the current situation.
I am guessing I never had someone go down and screw up because I never really saw a lot of adds. Did have some healers not know what to do on the first few pulls which left us with a lot of the caster adds a few times, but that is about it.
DeleteDid the LFR yesterday and I have to say apparently I am not the only one that thinks doom void zones are "the" mechanic for that fight. All mechanics of that fight are the same except there are no chains (or maybe I did not notice as I did not get one) and no doom void zones. Those are the two mechanics that guy kept screwing up. As I said, those are the only two that matter.
If blizzard removed them, they too know that they are a huge part of where people will have problems. I think you have been playing with such quality players for so long you forgot that sometimes what we think of as simple mechanics are actually the hardest part of these fights.
"but honestly I'd just move the blue marker rather than try to get a normal group to adjust like that"
Absolutely not. Hell no. Not going to happen. I will not move the marker. I am trying to train these people to be better raiders, doing that teaches them nothing. If they can not adjust on the fly and understand simple theory such as "markers are not absolutes" and be able to adjust they have no reason even stepping into a raid. For many that is a learned skill, to adjust. If I just move the marker they do not learn. If we wipe to their mistakes, it gives them a chance to learn. Death is a motivator to learn.
Moving the marker would work for your Wednesday group. The reason is that you have nothing invested in the pugs you take. All you want to do is down the boss. So if you move the marker to make it easier on them you down the boss. But that does not work for me. I need to teach these people. I will be raiding with them every week. I can not just always move the marker. That makes for piss poor raiders that do not know how to do anything but follow orders. They do not understand the mechanic on their own, they do not become capable of making snap decisions and they will never learn how to listen to changes on the fly from the raid leader.
If you have a vested interest in the players you teach them how to move on their own and use their brain. If you don't, you move the marker. That is why it works for you and it doesn't for me. I "need" these people to get better, you just "need" to down the boss with pugs.
"it's actually a *good* thing to stack them if you can."
You are preaching to the choir there. You are aware I am a hunter right, we invented moves like that. I tell my hunters to do that even on normal. It is standard practice. Normal or mythic makes no difference, you should always do things the right way.
"I mean no offense, but why do you care if he tries to use an excuse?"
Because an excuse shows they do not know what they did wrong or they do not care what they did wrong. The appropriate response would be, I screwed up, I will not do it again.
Do you accept excuses in your raid group? Someone screws up and you wipe and they said, "it wasn't my fault the cat jumped in my lap.", "the phone rang and I had to get it", "I got up to go to the bathroom, how did I know you would revive me", and stuff like that? If you do accept stuff like that instead of "I screwed up it won't happen again" consider yourself lucky you get any bosses down. There is no place for excuses. Admit you screwed up and don't do it again. Doesn't matter if you are casual like my guild or shooting for realm first like yours. You don't make excuses. If you screw up, own up to it.
You might have more faith because you have played with a better quality of players over the years. But when you have trained as many players as I have and seen all there is you realize that maybe one in every 30 players is actually capable of being a raider naturally and maybe another 2 of that 30 can learn with some effort. It is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of fact.
DeleteI disagree, death is more punishing but it is more of a tool for learning and a lot better for the group as a whole. It is MUCH easier to 14 main a 15 group than to 15 man a 15 man group when that 1 keeps screwing up and making it harder on everyone. Trust me, it is better they die. They learn and the fight will be easier without them in most cases.
I do not want the game to take the responsibility off my shoulders, I want it to help me teach people. I don't see anything wrong with it.
In the end it is the people like me, the ones that train all the new players, that make it capable for guilds like yours to keep going. Where do you think all the "good" players come from? Where do you think people get experience? Where do you think they learn those basic mechanics we take for granted and don't even consider a big deal like doom? From people like me that are willing to put the effort into training the next generation of raiders.
Trust me, if raid leaders like me dropped out of the game and we let blizzard train them with mechanics the way they already do, there would be no raiders left. I am not passing the buck, just asking for help teaching.
"I think you have been playing with such quality players for so long you forgot that sometimes what we think of as simple mechanics are actually the hardest part of these fights."
DeleteI think you should have seen the OpenRaid group last night and you'd change your mind real fast. First Heartseeker on Kilrogg went through a quarter of the raid.
"I am trying to train these people to be better raiders, doing that teaches them nothing."
It teaches them to trust that you're watching over the raid and will use the tools you have to compensate for other people's screw-ups.
Not moving the marker also teaches them to *ignore* what you say/plan if they think they know what's best to do to compensate for something.
"The reason is that you have nothing invested in the pugs you take. All you want to do is down the boss."
At this point something like 75%ish of the group is the same each week, maybe more. And a large portion of that 75% are guildies or cross-server friends of guildies. So you would be wrong.
"If you have a vested interest in the players you teach them how to move on their own and use their brain."
You are trying to force struggling sub-Normal mode raiders to change into upper level Heroic or even Mythic raiders. You cannot do that. The only way for a person to change in that regard is if they *want* to change.
And if they want to change, they'll do their own research/practice/improvement and ask you and/or others for help as needed.
Perhaps even more relevant, actually *killing* the bosses and seeing more stuff is going to make those people *like* raiding more and thus *be* more likely to want to improve.
"It is standard practice. Normal or mythic makes no difference, you should always do things the right way."
Except your change would kill both people on Normal and teach them NOT to do it the right way.
"Do you accept excuses in your raid group?"
Yes.
Now if someone has their cat keep jumping in their lap every pull THEN we have a problem.
"You might have more faith because you have played with a better quality of players over the years."
I started my guild with 4 friends at the end of WotLK and was literally PUGing half the raid group for normals at the start of Cataclysm for a long time. I've worked my way up from being in a *worse* position than you are right now.
"Where do you think they learn those basic mechanics we take for granted and don't even consider a big deal like doom?"
Not from groups like yours. I've *never* had a raid leader teach me anything of significance in that regard. People who go on to be Mythic or upper level Heroic raiders care enough to be learning from the start and they learn in things like dungeons or guides.
I also asked a friend of mine who started in WotLK about the matter -- he had a similar answer to mine. Sure, he started raiding in a normal guild but he was constantly frustrated at the lack of effort/willingness to learn that everyone else showed and he moved on as quickly as he could. He was teaching his *raid leader* things.
How many people have come into your groups, been completely ignorant, learned from your teachings, and then left to join a Heroic or Mythic guild? Entirely serious question.
I was so worried about heartseeker in LFR, I did it the day it came out, my worries were not unfounded.
DeleteI understand people not knowing, I can even accept when they mess up. The first time you see something it can cause that deer in headlight feeling. So in pugs you might get a lot of people that never saw it. One of the reasons I hate pugs. I do not mind training my people, I do not mind wiping with my people, but I am getting to old for wiping with pugs.
I actually took your advice the other night and started to coddlle them a little bit. Such as moving markers and such. Did not really see any marked improvement but we only did 5 bosses and we have been doing those 5 since week one, so I did not expect to see anything.
I was spoiled by playing with the same people day in and day out doing mythic last expansion that I forgot that I do need to give a little extra attention again with all new people around.
"You are trying to force struggling sub-Normal mode raiders to change into upper level Heroic or even Mythic raiders. You cannot do that. The only way for a person to change in that regard is if they *want* to change."
Yes, that is exactly what I am doing because that is the type of raider I am looking for. Maybe I am wrong for expecting more, but I want more.
Like you I was never taught the basics by a raider leader but that was because I wanted to raid. Back in that time you needed to know how to raid to become a raider. Or at least know the basics.
Now people need to be taught. You might not see it, but they do, trust me. I must hear "can you explain how xxx works again" a hundred times each tier. Sometimes from the same people multiple times. They actively seek me out to teach them how to handle the mechanic.
When I started raiding I would have been embarrassed to say I did not know a mechanic. I watched videos, I read guides, I viewed forms. I did everything I could to avoid asking how a mechanic worked. Now everyone expects the raid leader to explain it to them.
The world and the game has changed my friend. Like it or not.
1 Top 5 and 1 top 10 US guild, another 7 top 25 US guild. And I am sure a lot more that I lost track of over the years. One of them went to vodka way back when they were big and got me into the guild on an alt. I never leveled it but oh well, they merged a short time later.
There were also countless more that could move up that never did because they liked the 1 or 2 night raiding and were happy not to move up. We have even had a few former top players step down to "end" their raiding with us. Sad that 3 times in the past 2 years that has happened. Formally top players came to us, raided once in a while for a few months and then quit the game. Sad really.
I am just not used to this normal crap. I should be working on farming heroic right now to make mythic easier. Not doing normals.
I should just join a guild doing mythic already but I do not want to server transfer. I am stuck. But I do know I can't lead like this any more. I would be fine farming heroics for the next year (most likely) but normals just feels... dirty.
"One of the reasons I hate pugs. I do not mind training my people, I do not mind wiping with my people, but I am getting to old for wiping with pugs."
DeleteOne advantage of PUGs is that you don't HAVE to train them -- meaning you can look for PUGs who already know what to do. Plenty of alts of raiders who are looking for normal groups that don't wipe endlessly on the first two bosses. Obviously have to check armory or whatever and try to verify experience.
"I actually took your advice the other night and started to coddlle them a little bit."
If it's any consolation, even Mythic guilds (including mine) coddle our raiders a bit. Even voice chat is coddling to some degree -- strictly speaking you *should* be able to raid with just DBM, for example, don't *need* a raid leader calling stuff out as it happens (and back in BC Nihilium, world first Illidan, did not use voice chat IIRC).
Again, it's the overwhelming thing/deer in the headlights. I (and most raid leaders) don't think it's worth wiping again and again to stuff that's "easily" avoidable by coddling a little bit. There's already a lot of other stuff we can use to judge whether someone is capable of pulling their weight in general.
"Yes, that is exactly what I am doing because that is the type of raider I am looking for. Maybe I am wrong for expecting more, but I want more."
It's not that you're wrong for expecting more, it's that the people you're working with are not suddenly going to become what you expect. You have to play the hand you're dealt. I was talking about your post in general and the situation you describe with an officer of mine a day or two and he made a comment how it was like trying coach a Little League basketball team and an NBA team in the same manner. Yeah, *eventually* some of those Little Leaguers may become NBA all-stars but it's going to take a lot of time and practice and effort. And you can't expect them to be able to handle the same sort of plays or whatever. In fact, with Little Leaguers you don't try to run fancy plays for the most part, you just work on getting the fundamentals (passing, dribbling, shooting) down because that will make a much larger difference at that level.
"I must hear "can you explain how xxx works again" a hundred times each tier."
I do as well in the OpenRaid PUG and in PUGs I join on alts (whether as a raid leader or a regular raider in the raid).
Again, you are capable (I think) of raiding at an upper Heroic or even a Mythic level. And back then, *every* raid was Heroic/Mythic level. The idea of Karazhan being a F&F run was preposterous at the start of BC (later it was nerfed a bit and people started to overgear it and stomp it for badges). But I don't think we need to yell at every person these days who is trying to learn how to raid and tell them they should know more or know better. Like you said, compared to the "old days" you don't need to know as much to get to max level and be in a position to try to raid.
"The world and the game has changed my friend. Like it or not."
DeleteAnd I think that's more because back then the people doing Normal raid now would be doing Normal max level dungeons, maybe trying Heroic Dungeons (in BC) or Zul'Gurub/Ruins of AQ in Vanilla. Now the people who WOULD be learning basic raiding stuff in more difficult dungeons or "intro" raids are having to learn it in Normal raids.
Sure, a few (select) people like you or me probably were always far better prepared...but let me tell you how I got started raiding in BC.
I had recently switched to a Shadow Priest at the end of Vanilla and it suddenly became viable in PvE with the mana battery mechanic. I leveled at the start of BC, found people to run Heroic Dungeons with (I was one of a group of 6ish people who were the first people to clear each and every Heroic Dungeon on my smaller server -- we had a "core" group of 4 and a few others who rotated). I applied to the best raiding guild on the server and they wanted me to heal. I said no, Shadow or bust, if you don't want me then so be it. They invited me to a BG with them (Eye of the Storm to be exact) and were sufficiently impressed with how I was doing there to overcome their doubts and invite me on the spot.
The guild wound up breaking up a few weeks later due to some silly drama, but a decent chunk of the guild went to another guild on the server called Last Warlords of Lethon which was thinking of trying to raid. Some friends in my old guild plus some people I knew in LWoL (including the Druid tank for the Heroic Dungeon group) really encouraged me to join.
I wound up doing so and went from trial, to raider, to raid leader of one of the three Karazhan runs, to officer in the span of like two months I think. And it wasn't because I was a typical player/raider in the guild.
Nor are you the typical player/raider in Normals, let alone your guild. Don't expect the world from them, just try to help them and nudge them along rather than try to force them to become what you wish they were overnight.
"I am just not used to this normal crap. I should be working on farming heroic right now to make mythic easier. Not doing normals.
I should just join a guild doing mythic already but I do not want to server transfer."
Yes, you should, if that's your goal.
Remember, it took me five *months* to go from 5 raiders that were PUGing the other spots each week to having 10 raiders capable of killing Normal Nefarian (which technically would be equivalent of Heroic Nefarian in the current system). And that was with being willing to cut people who simply weren't up to par and being *very* aggressive on recruitment.
It was not an easy task at all. But compared to the idea of transforming your struggling Normal raiders into Mythic raiders it was a cakewalk.
With time and effort you can certainly make a team capable of clearing normal. If you try to somewhat aggressively recruit on the WoW forums, in trade chat, in the LFG tool, on OpenRaid, etc you could probably assemble a team capable of doing most or all of Heroics -- though it is likely/possible you would need to cut at least *some* people along the way.
And if you refuse to cut the people who simply cannot learn fast enough to keep guild with the guild (meaning people who are clearly holding the raid back and show no signs of improvement)...then you're going to lose the better players who decide to go elsewhere, particularly in this day and age.
This really hit home to me. From both sides.
ReplyDeleteI am not a raid leader, except as a pinch hitter in an emergency, but I have been on a progression team where the RL could never bring himself to sit someone, because he always felt bad about it and had decided he was just never going to put himself in that position any more. He made the decision that even if we wiped every time, that this was a game and not worth hurting anyone's feelings over. I didn't agree, but I respected his decision and the pain he went through to arrive at it. Ultimately, of course, that policy was a major factor in the demise of the team. Still, I admire the way he stuck to his guns on what was a matter of principle for him.
So I think I have some understanding of how this affected you, and I know you are going through some inner turmoil as you weigh your options. It is just a silly game, but it is a silly game with real people, and decisions affecting people are never easy.
From the other side, I saw myself. Not that I was ever an elite raider, far from it, but at least as recently as six months ago I was pretty darn decent. Not Mythic level, but definitely competent Heroic level. But both raid teams I was on fell apart, and I never completed Normal BRF -- to say nothing of Heroic -- and have not yet set foot in HFC except the first wing of LFR which I don't count.
I feel like I am losing -- possibly forever -- skills that I worked very hard to get. I'm not sure you can ever catch up once you have let those skills lapse. I may not be a big fan of raiding in this xpac, but that does not mean I want to relinquish that option for all future expansions. I find it ironic that Blizz is pushing raiding more and more as an end game requirement at the same time that it is becoming harder and harder for me to raid. Something is wrong with this model.
At any rate, sorry for rambling on so much, but as I said, your post really hit home for me.
Have a good weekend.
I agree this is a game and I don't want to hurt anyone's feeling either but there comes a point where if you are not killing bosses people will all be upset. Even more so when they are ones you should be killing. So it becomes a question of sit one person and have one person upset or let 17 others keep wiping with no chance of beating the boss if that one person is there.
DeleteThe fastest way to watch a raid team disappear and leave to go to other guilds is to make the wipe when there is no chance of beating a boss. You need to keep making adjustments, keep making sure the group has a chance, and if one, or a few, are keeping them from having the chance they need to go.
This is the absolutely worst part of flex raiding. It is the one reason I hate flex. Because before you could always tell someone you were taking someone more geared, more skilled, a different class, etc, all ways to tell them they could not come without making them feel bad in the process, but now with flex the only way to tell someone they can not come is basically to tell them they are a bad player and you do not think they can get better, at least tonight. I hate flex because of that, I really hate flex because of that. It is a raid leaders nightmare.
Blizzard is really at fault here. They made normal too hard. Way too hard. It was intended for "friends and family". This guy was asked to sit because he was messing up mechanics that could wipe the raid, and did wipe the raid. Mechanics like that should never exist in normal. There should never be a one person can wipe the group mechanic in normal. Heck, I might even argue that there should not be one in heroic either but that is another story. In the end blizzard is pushing everyone into raiding but making raiding harder and harder all the time limiting the number of people that can do it effectively instead of expanding it. Huge mistake.
"But both raid teams I was on fell apart, and I never completed Normal BRF -- to say nothing of Heroic -- and have not yet set foot in HFC except the first wing of LFR which I don't count."
DeleteIf you're free on Wednesday nights...
http://openraid.us/events/view/271427
"I hate flex because of that, I really hate flex because of that. It is a raid leaders nightmare."
I completely and 100% disagree, I love Flex because of that. It was awful having 12 people show up and wanting to do a run where I could only take 10 people. Or have like 20 and be stuck trying to figure out whether I should pug up to 25 or try to split into two 10 man groups or what.
Now I don't have to turn people away unless I'm literally at the 30 person cap or it severely unbalances the DPS/healer ratio.
"Mechanics like that should never exist in normal. There should never be a one person can wipe the group mechanic in normal."
Why not?
Again, they're not having to beat Hexos or the raid wipes. They literally just have to notice an 8 second debuff and take 3 seconds to move to the edge of the room or whatever.
And even one terrible Doom placement isn't going to wipe the raid, you'd need people to screw it up like 3+ times.
Normal has far more forgiving DPS/HPS checks and mechanics that are far more forgiving...but those mechanics still need to exist for it to be raiding.
Think of it this way: could your friend here have done Heroic Dungeons at the start of the expansion with the way he was playing? Nope. The bar in normal is set fairly low, but it still exists.
It was awful having 12 good raiders show up and you can only take 10. It is great for that.
DeleteIt sucks for everything else. Because now you have another 6 or 8 people that are not decenter raiders all thinking they "deserve" to come just because they showed up on time.
So either you tell them they can not come or you make less progression because you are stuck either in a training raid (which we do on saturdays) or in a raid where you are being held back.
As a casual guild I can not just say no to people left and right. I have to at least give them a try and it is killing us. We have the worst progression I have ever had in my entire life. It sucks having to carry dead weight that either can not pull the numbers or can not follow mechanics quick enough.
So I am left with either push progression and turn into a more hard focus group or stay casual and let them come. I want the better group but we sometimes do not have 10 good enough players for that and the raids are tuned to be harder for 10 man (just like they always have) so I have to take some of them, if not a lot of them, to make the raids somewhat easier. It is a balancing act that I am sick and tired of trying to figure out.
I agree, mechanics should not be hard to handle for any competent person. But if you ever wiped to a boss for the 5th time in a row because the entire melee range is filled with circles you will be sick and tired of saying, no yelling, before each pull, to move out if you have it.
For me or you it might be something we never even think about. It is about as simple as simple mechanics get, a monkey can do it. Sadly, most raiders are not as good as monkeys. Trust me, you are not experiencing what I am. You can not even imagine what I have to deal with.
If I start kicking people that screwed up 3 times I would have a raid of 8 people. I can not raid with 8 people. I have to raid with these people and hope that some of them, one day, get a clue and it finally kicks in and they start to understand. I do not have the option to start kicking people because I do not have enough people.
Normal is meant to be friends and family. The bar should be lower. I have no problems with DPS checks, I have not problem with healing checks. Those are easy. If a group fails more gear will help. But a raid for friends and family should not have mechanic checks, except for the last boss. That should be a step up and a lead in to doing heroic. So it should have mechanics like that. But not for the early ones. That was made for some of the people I am bringing along lately because I can not fill a raid without them. It should not cause "me" to wipe because of them. Heck, I should be doing mythic, not normal stuck with this happening. It gets frustrating.
If it were not for flex and heroic (now mythic) was still 10 man, I would be raiding with better people and doing the content I should be in. But I am not, thanks to the change to flex and the change to heroic (mythic). So yes. I hate it, I hate it with a passion. I dread raid night. I sometimes wish I would get hit by a car or something so I had an excuse not to come on to try to lead these raids. It is sad when the think you loved most about the game turns into the thing you hate most about it. Flex and 20 man mythic are why I hate raiding now. Remove flex, give me 10 man back, and I will be a happy camper again.
I am sorry to say this, but maybe you really should think about a change in environment. For me, even in normal difficulty "friends and family" raid, when you tell people repeatedly how to do things and even yell at them on the spot and they still dont do it, maybe they really are not cut out for raiding. If you cant get together 10 people that can listen to what you say and make some effort to put that into practice, then you can just cancel raids for a week or two and try to get your raiding enjoyment from pugs or even think about a guild change.
DeleteAlso I think you are just too nice, as you said in an earlier post you cant bring yourself to tell people "sorry, but you are right now not at the stage where we need you to be, please work on it". If people cant take soft criticism like this in a game, how do they survive in the outside world?
That is why I liked the set sizes more. With them you could play a bit more of a hard ass. You could draw the line in the sand and tell people to get better. Flex ruined that. Blizzard said "everyone can raid normal now" and that just is not true. Not even remotely close to true.
DeleteI think it has more to do with me not having my heart in it any more. That more than anything else.
I was thinking a hard set line in the sand is something I need to put up again, flex or not. But I have been training non raiders to become raiders for so long, I am not sure I want to do that any longer.
I used to know every class in the game, the rotations for every class in the game, and would spend time with everyone to try to help them get better.
I don't want to do that any more. I just want to be selfish and play. I think, even if just for a month or two if I could show up and just raid and kill things with a like skilled group I would be happy again.
Having to wipe to something for the 40th time that people should have learned by the 10th, at worst, is getting to me.
"It sucks for everything else."
DeleteJust to make sure we're on the same page:
1. It's awesome to avoid having to sit people
2. It's awesome to allow raid groups to easily grow over time and add new friends in
3. It sucks if you're not able to tell people that they're not even capable of doing a Heroic Dungeon
I don't know anyone but you who has argued that #3 even remotely outweighs #1 and #2.
"Because now you have another 6 or 8 people that are not decenter raiders all thinking they "deserve" to come just because they showed up on time."
If they showed up in 600 ilvl for HFC would you take them? If they were pulling 5k DPS as a DPS, ignoring adds that spawned as a tank, or doing 4k HPS as a healer, would you take them? If they showed up with no enchants/gems/flasks would you take them? If they were AFK during boss fights would you take them?
As the raid leader, you are *already* setting minimum expectations, perhaps more than you realize. There's a difference between "lax and forgiving expectations" and "no expectations."
"As a casual guild I can not just say no to people left and right. I have to at least give them a try and it is killing us."
No, you don't. Here's your solution:
Schedule like 75% of your raids to be "progression." That's where you take the people who aren't AFKing on boss fights and ignoring every mechanic. But once every week or two hold a "try-out/learning" raid where you spend a few hours doing some easier bosses and letting new people show that they're not completely clueless and AFK. Also require people to complete Proving Grounds: Gold before they're allowed to go to that learning raid. That's something they can do on their own time and tests some very basic things. It's also something they can get lots of advice/help with ("Hey, I'm struggling with Gold Wave 7, what could I do different?").
Everyone wins. You and the people who even slightly try get your raids where you can progress and kill bosses. People trying to aspire to raid get their chance to join that main group if they show a minimum level of competence. People who are not able to do a Heroic Dungeon will be told quite clearly by the Proving Grounds (where they personally have to react to certain things).
"Trust me, you are not experiencing what I am. You can not even imagine what I have to deal with."
I already posted the weekly normal run I host in OpenRaid where my entry criteria is "Have 675 ilvl for HFC normal." I don't care about people's previous experience or class or ilvl above that point.
And yet we've managed to get 7-9 normal bosses down each week and I haven't had to remove anyone from the raid due to being AFK like your friend. In fact, the only times I've ever had to remove people are 1, when they refuse to get on Mumble and 2, I had to remove one person last tier when we switched to Heroic for the last few weeks and someone was just doing absolutely terrible on Maidens.
And I'm in the situation where I can't take everyone who wants to go -- it's very common for me to have over 30 sign-ups and there's a hard cap of 30 which sucks.
So I'm dealing with a lot of random strangers at times too, I know what it's like to be leading something that's not a Mythic raid team.
"For me, even in normal difficulty "friends and family" raid, when you tell people repeatedly how to do things and even yell at them on the spot and they still dont do it, maybe they really are not cut out for raiding."
DeleteIndeed. Raiding means you actually have to try. Normal doesn't require you to try very hard, but you can't just AFK.
______________________________________
"You could draw the line in the sand and tell people to get better."
You still can do that, as a matter of fact. You don't *want* to do that and it was emotionally/mentally *easier* for you to do so earlier, but you still can. You could be a complete hard-ass if you wanted.
"Blizzard said "everyone can raid normal now" and that just is not true. Not even remotely close to true."
Unless you have a physical or mental handicap, everyone can in fact raid normal. But it does mean that they have to actually be willing to learn and actually willing to try.
Think of it as a driver's license if you want. Everyone can get one short of a major handicap and it's pretty easy to get one (like what, 99% of people have one over the minimum age required?). But you still have to learn the basics and pass the test, even if you're never going to be a NASCAR racer or something.
"I think, even if just for a month or two if I could show up and just raid and kill things with a like skilled group I would be happy again."
Sign up for my Wednesday run if you're free.
http://openraid.us/events/view/271427
The people I've had to work with this expansion are surely not the best I've ever had. Most are new and learning (really slowly) or just less skilled to begin with.
DeleteI have been talking to some of the more experienced players in the raid. The healing leader and a few officers. We started the expansion with 15 good raiders. We had intended to recruit to get to the point we could do mythic. We now have 8 left. 1 moved to another guild, oddly to only do normals with a friend because he did not want to do heroics any more and the other 6 have quit the game. So losing nearly half of the people who were mythic capable really hurt, a lot. But it has happened before, happens at the start of every expansion, but this is the worst I have seen it since cataclysm. So it is time to rebuild, once again, and I am getting way to old for this stuff. I just want to log in and kill stuff, not baby sit.
We are planning what you said. Wednesday which is our only progressions night, will be for those 8 and the best 2 we have show otherwise. It will be hard because all fights are harder for small groups, but we will move up from there. Thursday, in due time, we will add a day to see new people to try to recruit and to continue to train, or try to, and work with the people we think can learn.
Maybe, if all goes well, we can rebuild and start to actually raid 2 nights progression a week. But it will be a long uphill fight. And on a server without much of a raiding population, it will be hard to recruit, but it is the only way we can move forward is if we try.
In the end I think I am just going to end up moving on myself. I do not have the strength, nor the desire to do this again. To build a team again, to train a team again, and to deal with flex now. I think for my own enjoyment I would be better joining a bigger guild and just being a soldier. I could surely help as a leader of some sort if needed, but no longer want to be a raid leader. I don't want to deal with issues like this any more. It happens every expansion. Guess that is the downfall of a casual guild. Sure, we were as high as #3 on our server, but that just goes to show you how bad our server was.
If I had 20 people that were all of my skill level I would not mind telling people, sorry I can not bring you. But when all I have to work with are a few good people and some of those I would rather not bring, it sucks. And then having to ask people to sit when there are others that are just as bad staying (just so I have enough to even try to run) sucks even more. It is not fun.
I want to live in your world for just one month. Where I show up for raid, there are 20 competent people that all came with their own food, their own flasks, their own runes, and all knew the fights you were doing before you show up. It has been a long time since I had a group like that. I actually miss being the new guy and working my way into the group where everyone knew everything and it was me sitting on the outside watching videos to learn. How many would say that?
I would love to sign up, but wednesday is our one night we work progression. Not like we will get anywhere, but we try.
It is nice that you are doing that, and even better that you are doing it with such a low item level. I bring people in all the time, 690, 695, and they suck. I wish I had your luck with finding people. I've seen people over 700 with experience wipe the raid do to failing mechanics and you do them with people in 675 gear. That can only be luck being you said you do not vet them out to see their experience. Can I borrow your luck? For just one week, I promise I won't break it?
"Wednesday which is our only progressions night, will be for those 8 and the best 2 we have show otherwise. It will be hard because all fights are harder for small groups, but we will move up from there."
DeleteI don't know what time your raid is, but I could come and help outside of the time of my run (which is 9 to midnight CST) if you'd like. Can add Balkoth#1847 if you want.
"And on a server without much of a raiding population, it will be hard to recruit, but it is the only way we can move forward is if we try."
It may be worth trying to do stuff like advertising on OpenRaid and let people do a run or three cross-realm with your group first, with the understanding that if they enjoy the group then they'd be expected to transfer to join the guild after those raids (during which they can see if they think your group is a good fit for them and you can see if you'd even want them long term in your guild).
"To build a team again, to train a team again, and to deal with flex now."
Part of the responsibility and burden of being a raid leader is having to say "no" to people at times. Given the struggle you're having doing so, I'd agree that right now isn't a good time for you to be raid leading. People burn out, happens to a lot of raid leaders.
"Where I show up for raid, there are 20 competent people that all came with their own food, their own flasks, their own runes, and all knew the fights you were doing before you show up."
Well, technically we as the guild (meaning the officers) provide the food/flasks/potions/enchants/gems for players. If you're worried about Augment Runes in your raid then your priorities are very skewed -- we don't even use them on most pulls. Only used them on severe DPS check bosses when we were near a kill. Obviously the perma-augment rune changes that, but yeah...runes should not be a concern for a normal group.
And I wish every single person showed up knowing the fights perfectly every time. Doesn't always happen even in Mythic raiding.
"That can only be luck being you said you do not vet them out to see their experience."
It'd be an awfully lucky nearly two years since Siege opened in that case. To be fair, part of it is self-selection -- if you know about OpenRaid and sign up for a raid on it, chances are you're going to care enough about raiding to not be completely terrible. People also know they'll be rated on OpenRaid (can give anywhere between 0 and 5 stars to people after the raid) which is a significant incentive to pay attention and actually try -- note that most people will just give 5 stars to everyone unless there were significant problems with a person.
Of course, if you say the latter matters then you're also saying some of your raiders don't care what their guildmates think of them, which is also kind of depressing.
I must start this with the truly, painfully, honest personally assessment. I have developed a fear of pug people. A serious fear. So I try not to use fill ins through the group finder.
DeleteNot sure if it is because I embarrassed to invite people and then do poorly, or I am trying to avoid the toxic few by not dealing with any.
I need to learn to get over that but I am not sure how.
Now to the post, thanks for the offer to help. Are you alliance? I don't recall.
You are right, being we are only doing normal / heroic and have no designs on mythic at the moment cross realm can be used to our advantage. If and when the time ever comes to move to mythic the people on other realms might just consider coming to ours, as they would need to. Or we can use the cross realm groups that are doing well to invite people on our server and try to get them to join us for mythic. That is my goal, even if it does not seem possible right now.
I am burnt out on raid leading, but if I do not do it, we do not raid. It really is that simple. I am doing it because I have to, not because I want to. I'll be the first one to tell you I am the worst person in the world to be a raid leader right now. It takes a special person in the right state of mind to raid lead and I am just not that right now.
I have the permanent rune now, so I do not worry about it and I suggest to all my raiders that they should get it too. It is only 5K and you never need to buy one again. Sell the ones you get and you will make more than the 5K you spent on it back. Casual or not, there is no excuse for not being the best you can.
As for the gems, enchants, etc. I take care of them myself. Always have, always will. Even if I left my guild and went to another, I would take care of my own stuff. I also never use guild repairs. I am part of a guild because I want to be part of it. I don't particularly have any respect for people that expect their guild to provide that stuff for them.
But on the other hand. I will gladly make anything and everything any of my raiders ask for. I always keep the GB stocked with gems, potions and flasks. I just dislike that people expect it. But I am weird, we know that.
I am not saying I want to them know the fight perfectly, that is impossible. Heck I have killed fights a few times I still do not know perfectly and I really try. What I ask of people is that they at least watched a video or two, maybe read something about it, at least make an attempt to understand the fight a little.
You raid, you know how huge of a difference that is. If you have at least and "idea" what is going on that lowers the amount of attempts you need to put in. All I want people to do is show up with an idea what we will be doing.
I currently have one raid team member that watches videos before we fight a new boss. That is it. Everyone else just expects me to explain everything. I do not like that. Even if they do not understand what they saw it makes explaining a lot easier if they saw it.
I have not used OR since last expansion and when I went there looking for groups this expansion the place was a ghost town. It was me and 2 other people in chat. So I never went back. I guess it is only useful just for events now. I miss the old OR because, as you said, the people there are usually better because they went out of their way to find a group. Probably why you do well and my group finder filled groups don't.
Few quick things as I don't have time to respond to everything atm:
Delete1. Yes, my main is Alliance as is your guild as far as I could tell. That said, I have another max level priest on Horde side if my conclusion is incorrect.
2. "Casual or not, there is no excuse for not being the best you can." I would disagree, and you likely do too if you think about it -- do you have three 715 items with your best stats crafted? Are you earning conquest points to fill any needed slots? Are you buying BoEs from HFC to use? Etc. Everything has diminishing returns but runes in particular are extremely minor. I've been doing the dailies on most days and I don't even have the perma-rune yet -- a truly casual player is likely to be a long way away still. And the difference between a Normal and Heroic *necklace* (one of the weakest slots) is larger than the difference between rune and no rune. So it's literally less than 1 ilvl of difference. RNG in terms of crits/multistrikes/procs will have a much larger impact on your DPS pull to pull compared to runes.
Do you really think your raiders doing 1% more DPS is going to solve any issues your raid is having? Feels like you're trying to teach basketball players how to pass behind their back when they really need to be working on their basic passing skills in the first place.
3. "I don't particularly have any respect for people that expect their guild to provide that stuff for them." *shrug* Our philosophy was that we wanted to make raiding as easy as possible for people with busy/chaotic schedules -- all they needed to do was show up on time and know the fights because we have people who can barely log on outside of raid time. The addition of things like the bonus rolls and rep grinds in MoP/WoD complicated that a bit, but we still try to require the minimum time investment outside of raids as possible. There's a reason people wanted to join our 2 night guild instead of a 3-4+ night guild, y'know?
"It was me and 2 other people in chat. So I never went back. I guess it is only useful just for events now."
Correct, they even removed the chat feature because it was so dead. That said, there's currently over 50 Normal/Heroic HFC events listed for this week alone (meaning before the reset next Tuesday). Not saying all of those will work out well or even fill, but it's far from dead.
1) Yes I am alliance. My horde hunter does not current have a raid guild this expansion.
Delete2) I have one upgrade left, need 33 more felblight to get it. I am not rushing it as we are only doing normal but you could be damn straight if we trying to push content I would have it done already. I do not buy BoEs, I farm for them but if they are ones I can not farm yes I buy.
I do agree for a really casual player, like I play my horde hunter this expansion, it is hard to keep up. It does not have the crafted, it does not have enchants, it does not have runes, I sell them instead, etc. But I also am not raiding on that character.
As for my guild. DPS is never an issue. Mechanics are. It takes them a bit longer than I would like to pick up mechanics than I would like it too. 1% more however is 1% better. The faster the boss goes down the fewer chances their are to mess up mechanics.
3) It comes down to a personal preference. I do not like people "paying my way". I prefer to take care of my own needs. Like I said, I provide for everyone. Heck before guild banks I used to show up with all types of flasks, food, potions, etc in my bags for others. I will give, but I refuse to take unless I absolutely have to. Just personal preference.
I guess I should start trying to check out OR for groups. It would be better than doing LFR to get tomes on whichever one I do not raid with that week. Problem for me is I usually do not know which one I am raiding on until raid night. In the end I think it would be better to do a pug for the first 6 than LFR for the first 6. Anything to avoid LFR would be nice.
"I am not rushing it as we are only doing normal but you could be damn straight if we trying to push content I would have it done already."
DeleteHave you wondered why the raid/guild leader in the top two night a week Mythic guild in the US is less worried about that than you?
"1% more however is 1% better. The faster the boss goes down the fewer chances their are to mess up mechanics."
Except you're messing up mechanics starting from 5% into the fight or whatever. You could increase your raid's DPS by 20% and you'd still be wiping. And the time that you're trying to get them to invest into getting that 1% from whatever could be used for things like, say, actually watching guides.
Again, you're trying to get your guildies to be more hardcore than Mythic raiders in the top two night a week guild in the US. That should be ringing some alarm bells.
Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:
ReplyDeleteIt is much the same as a sports star trying to hang on for one more season, the stats almost always fall way off in the last year or two of attempting to keep on running with the big dogs. Many realize the decrease in their performance, the lack of the numbers being there to justify their presence and quietly go off into the sunset but some just won't and they have to be shown the door.
I hope I fall into the category of knowing my limits and that my limits are no longer great enough to raid regularly or even really irregularly. That is why I wanted to be the 26th man on the 25 man roster needed for mythic raiding. The person you described is probably one of those who should be for the last five positions on such a team, ahead of me but not a regular. Now I know we are talking about normal and heroic rather than mythic, but still the principal is the same.
Yes, in many ways you are to good a soul to be the raid leader. I know you sacrifice a lot to do that job. I knew that it would consume you when I asked you to take it and yet I did it anyway. Why? Because of all the world class people I have met playing this game, you are most prepared person I have met. Because I knew you would take the job as seriously as the warrior who proceeded you as raid lead but would be a 100% better on relations with players. And lastly because I wanted to do better as a raider and I knew you would bring that out in all of us.
A brief rundown on our history:
Vanilla--10 man raiding only (yes there were 10 and 15 man raids in vanilla, reduced over time but still there), 40 man raiding was held up by others raiding our guild for our best players that we developed over time.
TBC--10 man raiding mostly, two teams at one point, worked with other smaller guilds towards the end of the expansion to do some 25 man raiding.
Wrath--10 man raiding, first opportunity to do all the raids as 10 man, successful up till ICC, broken by our two tanks and a top dps/healer jumping ship, temporarily took our mains into another guild for 25 man raiding with success until that guild leader discovered Starcraft 2, I lead us back to our real guild and asked you to be my raid leader, got to Arthas but fell slightly short before the next expansion.
Cata--10 man raiding, first time as a guild finishing an expansion end boss before the end of the expansion (under your raid leadership)
MoP--ditto, save for being the second time finishing an end boss raid instead of the first, again under your leadership as raid lead.
WoD--you are still the raid lead, and from my position as a ghost observer, still doing a good job at it. But yes, there comes a point where all of us have to question our ability to keep on doing the thing we love doing or at least doing it at a level that we are satisfied with. Stats wise, I am confident you are good to go for a good long while yet, but being a raid leader is more than that. So while I don't want to see you quit as raid leader, I do hope you are eying any possible successors to fill your raid lead role. It will happen and when it does, I want you to be happy about how it ends. Admittedly, my personal preference is to see you keep on raid leading for us, but that is merely greediness on my part. In truth, you have fulfilled every hope I had back when I asked you to take the job and far more so.
You understood that you were getting older and you stepped down because you wanted to leave on your own terms. There is noting wrong with that, we all know our own limited. It just sometimes it becomes a problem of us acknowledging them. Most don't, I know I will not go silently into the night, but you did on your own terms.
DeleteEven in DS it was funny, because you played super sub. In DS you were there for three of our first heroic kills even if you had quit raiding earlier. You worked as a back up but you were also our good luck charm.
It is funny how all three of those first kills you never once wiped on. We were wiping and I had to switch to tank so you came in as DPS and the next pull we killed it. All three times. Now that is a good luck time.
Flex raiding has killed any joy of being a raid leader I ever had. Totally ripped it apart and chewed it up and spit it on the ground. I have not enjoyed raiding this entire expansion. I actually dread raid night and am to the point I hate logging in for it but I do it because I feel I have to.
As for a replacement. There are none. Not even one I might remotely consider. We have a couple of part timers that I would consider but they are part timers so they could not do it. But we do not have any member right now that has the right temperament, the desire, or the willingness to put in the time and research to learn what needs to be done for each and every encounter from the perspective of each class and role. So I am stuck doing it and will be for the foreseeable future. The sad part is I feel one day I will just burn out, log out, and never come back and that will be the end of our guild having a raid team. At least for a little while.
I didn't read all the comments (yeah, yeah, yeah) but maybe have you thought that with your friend, it may be medical? Yes, it happens. Who knew 8 years ago a tumor would pop up? One of the reasons why I don't very much anymore.
ReplyDeleteYou need to contact this person and just be their friend.
It is a game after all - nothing to hurt someone or be hurt by.
-roo
It would help if I see him log in again. I have not seen him since he logged off. I planned to talk to him but he has not been on. Medical issues happen. Even sometimes as simple as eyesight can play a huge part in raid performance.
DeleteMaybe real life issues eroded his self esteem. This usually translates into lack of confidence. Him doing so poorly on the first boss may have affected him deeply and he simply couldn't focus anymore. You whispering him was fair from a raid leader's pov, but it seems he was even more stressed and couldn't bring himself to play right. I had something like this happen once, had been arguing for weeks with my raid leader for personal outside of raid issues and I simply couldn't see crap on one fight. I closed my eyes as he yelled at me, just hoping it would end and go away. I'm very emotional and I do really bad if I feel bad towards someone in the raid (like I did that time).
ReplyDeleteMaybe WoW was his escape and he failed and now he doesn't know what to do, feeling ashamed, sad and lost. He needs a break and well, since it's a big dejection, maybe start fresh, without people expecting him to be how they remember him.
Also, time does change because you lose practice. Especially true for dpses. I haven't met even one dps who's been top in the past, take a long break and come back to be top first run. They usually suck for quite a while, takes a lot of practice and willpower to keep going to get back to how you were. One of my work colleagues is an ex-Method, hasn't been around in years, got back and was miffed how he kept failing on a certain BRF mechanic. He also wasn't happy with his dps. He continued raiding, practiced a lot, continued reading a following logs and now he's "back" but it wasn't immediate in the least. Takes a lot of time and willpower to keep going after you see yourself
'worse than you used to be'.
I am thinking that is a distinct possibility. I know he is currently out of work, that is why he had more time to play recently. It could be why he is taking it so hard. Maybe not feeling too good about himself and then I made him feel even worse. Now I feel even worse thinking about it.
DeleteI notice that too. If I am playing on my tank for a long time when I go back to my hunter, even if has just been a couple of week, it takes me a run or two to get back into the hang of things. So I could see it being much harder to someone that has been out of it for a long time.
It has nothing to do with getting old. Doing raid mechanics require just common sense to complete.
ReplyDeleteThere has to be some practice of course. I KNOW that I must get away from Iron Reaver's "Blitz" line asap, but from time to time I do get caught. Switching to adds, not standing in the fire, getting a bomb from or in the raid is not the thing of practice though. It's: just do it because you know it. There's also normally big, BIG letters in the middle of the screen, saying: hey, dude, something is gonna happen to YOU, and you better undertake some actions, will you? You have to be afk, physically or mentally, not to. Or an idiot.
I notice, things like the blitz, I mess up after it is on farm for a while. So I have not screwed it up yet as it is new, but I know for a fact I will. Sometimes when doing something for so long you take it for granted and forget about it.
DeleteFunny part is, even with DBM putting it on my screen, I still fail things like that sometimes because, like I said, I completely forget about it once something is on farm. You start to ignore the announcements after you no longer need them. Or at least I do. And that leads to those mistakes.
Grumpy, you're way too hard on yourself. It's probably what makes you such a good RL, but you need to sit down and think hard about what changes you need to make so that you can enjoy the game again.
ReplyDeleteIt's a game, it should be enjoyed. Find a way before you burn out and quit.
I agree with you that Normal raids shouldn't be wiped by one person screwing up. Poor players should be able to kill themselves, but not have the extra pressure & frustration of taking everyone else with them when they do.
I hold my hand up and admit it takes me a while to learn new fight mechanics, and I'm often the one that screws it up for everyone. I put enough pressure on myself without needing the resentment of the rest of the raid to add to it. (Also while I'm dead on the floor I can watch the others carry on and learn from it. If we insta-wipe I can't even do that).
But I *do* learn eventually, and I very seldom make the same mistake twice. If I'm not sure what I missed or did wrong I ask. I even run LFR (shudder) to see the mechanics in a non-threatening way so I understand them better when it really matters. That sort of commitment (plus knowing your class & rotation) is the minimum I'd expect from any raider of any level.
I hope the player you speak of comes back, and spends some time walking before they try to run again.
I would love to move into a position where I just join the raid, do my job, collect loot.
DeleteSadly all three of those things are a little to much to ask lately. I need to assemble and lead, or no on else would. I need to do my job and everyone else's it seems to let them know what cool downs they can use for certain things. And I have horrible luck, so I never get loot. So I can not just join a raid, do my job and collect loot. But I would really love to do that.
I agree in normal it should teach the person that screwed up by killing them. If the end of every fight comes and they are always dead maybe they would learn. But if them messing up kills other people, they do not see it happening to them. The think, oh, we wiped because people died and we did not have enough. They do not see it as, oh we wiped because I killed those people.
We are a casual team. I know more than anyone else that it takes some people longer to learn than others and I am fine with that. As long as they learn, or if they are having trouble they listen to help as it is given. Some just don't.
As you said, you run LFR to get an idea. Heck, I have someone in guild that runs the LFR 10 or so times a week. On the same character. So he can practice. He is an amazing player. Some people do not even try, most even do not, it is amazing how many people show up new and I ask them if they know the bosses and they say, no, they have not even done them on LFR.
As weird as it might sound, I am thinking that I am going to make doing the LFR a requirement.
He still has not been back online yet. Logged in quick one day and back out, but that is it.
Dear Grumpy Elf,
ReplyDeleteI have been a long time reader of your blog albeit a silent one. This is the first time that I felt the need to comment. Not because you don't invite good discussions with your posts otherwise but because I usually agreed with you or couldn't really add anything substantial. This post touched upon something I personally struggled and perhaps still struggle with.
I am not an old person. In my early twenties, actually. However, some years ago I had a stroke. Don't want to bore anyone with details but it has effected memory, reflexes, fine motor skills and situational awareness among other things. However, I have always been a gamer. Even as a young girl I played anything from Dyna (Bomberman?) to Drakan, Turok, Doom and the Tomb Raider series instead of playing with dolls. :) Whether it was a shooter, action or platformer game - I usually excelled in it. Found all the hidden medkits/ammos/upgrades, went for the collectibles, braved the most split-second-reaction based jumps.
Picked up WoW during the Burning Crusade. Was instantly hooked and very quickly shot through the ranks of the guild that took me in during my noob days. I quickly became the person to organize and lead attunement runs for the new recruits, I was there for the main raids and alt raids. Kept faithfully running Karazhan for the newbies even while we progressed in Black Temple and tried our hands at Sunwell. Continued down this path and was both a 10 and a 25 man (stuck to 25 man during ICC) heroic raider for most of WOTLK. Although with my last guild we never could get beyond Valithria before the 30% nerf was dropped on us. But still, I was valued as both a main tank and a ranged dps. (My two mains during both expacs were feral druid and beast mastery hunter. Dabbled in light spells and fel magic with my warlock and paladin alts although I mostly stuck to doing GDKP ToC runs with them for gear and gold.) Now I have days when I starve because I can't coordinate the food to my mouth due to excessive shaking/twitching of the hands.
Which is why I want to say, thank you for trying your best to keep that person in the raid and don't feel bad for what happened. You didn't chase him off nor did you do something wrong. I left raids in silence as well and kept logging on less and less. Not out of anger directed at my guildies / fellow raiders but out of anger directed at myself for the continous failure. A lot of shame and frustration. Knowing that I can't do it and not wanting to discuss the subject with anyone as it would have just added to the humiliation. But this isn't for the guild to deal with. It's a personal journey.
I put down WoW as I sorted through this. Picked up other games, tried out other genres in the meantime. More importantly, I worked on and still keep working on accepting that things have changed. That's the mindset with which I returned to WoW very recently and it works. Picked a class brand new to me so there is no pressure of living up to the performance of my "legacy" days. Taking things at my own pace, enjoying simple questing and grinding, putzing around with pet battles and archeology, giving dungeons my best shot. Maybe I will try raiding once again some day.
I believe your friend will find his way too. You could approach him if he ever stays logged on for more than a minute and tell him that you would be happy to try working with him if he is willing to do some things that you think would improve his performance. If he doesn't show interest then that's that. As I said, this is a personal journey first and foremost. You were already far kinder and patient than the average player. Thank you for that attitude and keep on being awesome!
Sorry to hear about the stroke. There can be a lot of side effects of something like that and I can certainly understand how it could change what you were used to doing a great deal.
DeleteAs Roo said too here, he guessed maybe it was some sort of illness or something, perhaps it is a situation like what happened with you which could explain his near 2 year absence well. Also could explain why he is playing a new class just like you did.
It gives me something to think about. Maybe he too had a situation like you and was attempting to make a comeback. It makes me feel even worse having had asked him to leave.
If something like that is the case and he had told me I would have never asked him to come on a heroic right away. I would have let him ease back into things. I do understand however why if that is the case he would not wish to talk about it. I don't think I would want to either.
He still has not been back on for more than a second here and there. And he has not come on voice chat either, which he always was on. I think I upset him. I do hope I have time to talk to him later and find out what is going on. I did not wish to hurt his feeling by asking him to leave but it sure seems like I did.
I try to remember that everyone is a real person on the other end of those pixels. I try to treat people as I wish to be treated. Sadly, with raiding, it leads to many tough decisions.
Thanks for sharing your story with us. I hope you continue to enjoy the game and enjoy what you are able to. Maybe one day you can get some raiding in again too.
Be well and feel better.
[raises left fist]
DeleteRight on Sister!
-roo
Are you even sure it is still the same person playing it?
ReplyDeleteThat is a valid question. I believe so. I spoke to him on voice chat back then and currently. It was years between talking and it sounds like the same person. But that does not mean it actually is. He is choosing the play a different main than the main he had always been before. But people do change.
DeleteGwyndel - Thunderhorn EU
ReplyDeleteI am late to the comment party here... This one really got to me. Could have been me you described! While I haven't been asked to sit I am one of those people that came back to raiding this expansion.
I raided in vanilla, and big time in BC and Wrath. I recently returned and I must admit I struggle to get up to my previous Level. I am out of practice, I had to relearn my class. And to be honest, my life is different, no longer allowing me to commit to playing the game as I did in the previous expansions. I am slowly working my way up and might be around 80% of what I am capable of. Luckily the guild I now raid with is much more casual so nobody holds being a young parent with a lack of sleep against me more than I do myself.
That said:
What I didn't see anyone mention however, is how different a game raiding is now from how it was back then!. The best raiders from my era excelled because they knew their class and hit the correct buttons. These days you need to do that, be aware of certain events you cannot influence all the while doing your dance or die. In my opinion this is radically different and should not be underestimated. And sadly there is really no other place to learn than normal mode raids!
I hope you find your raiding friend and can have a good chat with him, as a friend and as a raidleader. This can be sorted out, but might require a couple of weeks of steady practice.
If you are doing 80% of your potential than that places you easily in the top 1% of the player base, so don't be down on yourself. Most players can not consistently perform at that level.
DeleteYou are right, raiding has changed and it has changed a hell of a lot. Your average dungeon boss is harder than anything you ever saw in vanilla. Each patch that comes out they step it up even more. That is why I kind of disagree with their raiding model, because it leaves no place for new people to ease into it, the same way we eased into it when we started. They do not have their easy bosses were it was only 1 or 2 things to look for. Every fight seems like there are a dozen things that matter. It is a lot for a new player to take in.
I give credit to people that start playing now and pick up raiding quickly. There is a hell of a lot going on. Too much if you ask me. I play to kill stuff, not to be a dancer all fight long.
I am still waiting for him to come back online but he has not yet. Maybe he will in time. I hope so.