Wednesday, July 29, 2015

Blizzard Lies

This will be an extremely short post, for me at least.  I also put it under the header of humor because I think it has to be one of the funniest things I have heard from blizzard all expansion long.

I saw a question and answer highlighted on the front of MMOC regarding the extremely long queue times for the LFR recently.  After reading it my mind was blown.  I had to read it a second time to make sure I did not misread it.

Someone asked on twitter
"time in queue 1h 30min.. this isn't very fun gameplay"

For this warcraftdevs had a two part answer
(1) We have a fix in the works that should improve LFR queue times
(2) We’re currently giving too much weight to class diversity in forming groups

I found this funny partly because they have a "fix in the works" because it should have never been like this to begin with and should not need a fix.  But the real reason this had me laughing was the second reason they gave, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that blizzard lies.

Two weeks ago I queued up for the BFR wings on my horde hunter, I get into a group and it has 15 hunters in it.  You are aware there are only 18 damage dealer spaces to begin with right?

Last week, horde hunter again, BRF again, 12 hunters in the group.

Monday before reset, wanted to get the first two bosses on my druid, because I only tanked from the 3rd on, so I queue up as a healer for the first HFC.  Guess how many druid healers we had?  5 druid healers.  Let me give you a reminder how many healers LFR uses, it uses 5.

So I have to say "(2) We’re currently giving too much weight to class diversity in forming groups"  has to be both the most blatant lie blizzard has told us all expansion and probably the funniest one too.

If having 5 out of 5 healers being a druid and 15 out of 18 damage dealers being a hunter is diversity in the eyes of the people that work at blizzard, I now completely understand why they are having all the problems they are.


  1. I think it has a grain of truth. In my experience, each LFR has different classes - as many as possible. I don't check out each and every fight, but I'm playing 10 different DPS classes and I tend to mouse over the raid to see, t.ex., how many of the windwalker monks we have if I'm playing a monk etc. Normally it's one or two or none. Tanks or healers of the same class is a rare thing as well.

    Sometimes when our tank is dead for some time, there's an exclamation in a chat: "Wait, what? We have 3 DK, no CD running and there's no battle rez?". But never "we have 5 warlocks and 6 DKs". 5 or 6 hunters happened once.

    1. Tanks of the same class seem to be the standard in the ones I get in. Always two DKs or two druids. Rarely a warrior or a monk. Extremely rarely a paladin.

      The one with my druid with 5 druid healers had 6 DKS in it.

      Everything has a grain of truth to it. But they can not blame the matchmaking keeping things balanced for the delay when it is clearly not keeping things balanced.

    2. I don't see how it's a lie.

      Putting too much emphasis on class balance doesn"t means that at some point the weight of the wait is higher than the weight of class balance. If many peaople of the same class queued around the same time (bound to happen with hunter) it's very likely the breakpoint will be reached at the same time for many of them and get put in the same group.

      While I have no proof blizzard is not lying, your anecdote doesn"t prove they are aswell.

    3. @Anon

      They are saying that the delay is because they are trying to diversify classes and they are not diversifying classes. That is why it is a lie.

      Now, if he said something like "(2) We’re currently giving too much weight to class diversity in forming groups for the first half hour" then it would not be a lie.

      It is not anecdotal evidence. It is empirical evidence.

      Being we are evaluating a fact (delay because of diversity) as they are telling it to us, any evidence, even one occurrence of it, is empirical data to counter the "fact" we were given, which is why queue times were taking so long.

      "Empirical evidence is information that justifies a belief in the truth or falsity of a claim." -wikipedia

      With that said, even once occurrence proves the falsity of his claim that class diversity is the (a) reason for the long queue times.

      Perhaps he just paraphrased it wrong and meant to say it another way. But as it was said, without a shadow of a doubt, it is a lie.

    4. No, you're so biased in proving blizzard lies that you're making logical falacy.

      Saying "wer're giving to much weight on diversifying group" doesn't mean "no group will ever not be diversified".

      It just says that it's given too much importance.

    5. You are just doing everything you can to defend them. Nothing wrong with that.

      I'll try to explain why it is a lie once more.

      If he says part of it might be because they are trying to get diversity, and they are not getting diversity, you can not blame the long wait time on diversity. Simple as that. It is a lie.

      Did he mean something else? Most likely. But as it is stated, it is a lie. Sure I might be picking on the fact he misspoke but it does not change the fact that what he said is a falsehood.

      Don't blindly defend and I will not blindly bash.

    6. Do you have any idea how optimisazion works?

      let's say you have a formula looking like this (EXTREMELY simplified) :

      p = d+ t. where p is your priority, d is an arbitrary number weight for diversity, t is the time spend in queue. As time passes by diversity will means nothing in regard to time for your priority. at some point you WILL get in regardless of the diversity of the group, even if they are aiming for diversity.

      Just because you get groups that are not diverse doesn't mean that they aiming for diversity is not the reason the queue are long.

      As I said, that doesn't mean they're not lying, but there is nothing proving they are either.

    7. I understand how it works. What I am saying is that it is not working like that.

      Read back, I even referenced the same exact thing you just said in the first reply.

      "Now, if he said something like "(2) We’re currently giving too much weight to class diversity in forming groups for the first half hour" then it would not be a lie."

      He did not say it was a time factor.

      What he said, once again because you keep missing the point, might have been misspoken, but as he said it, it is false.

    8. And neither did he say taht time is NOT a factor.

      For me it was implied it was in what he said, you choose to interpret it as if he said time was not.

      So the most objective way to look at is comment is "We lack information to know if he's lying or not, but we learn they are factoring in stupid stuff for LFR queue"

    9. Note as well that in my formula the weight given to diversity is not varying with time, only the weight given to time vary with time, and at some point that weight exceed the static one given to diversity.

    10. Yes, he did not say it was NOT a factor.

      So, I am basing my comment on what he DID say because I can not comment on what he did NOT say.

      With that said, what he said is a lie.

      No matter what you think me meant, or what I know he said, the fact of the matter is, there should not ever be anything like that in the queue system for LFR. If there is, they are doing it wrong.

    11. Essentialy what you're saying is since he said 1+2=3 without saying 1+1=2, he is lying.

      Yes that IS what I get out of what you're saying.

      You're so dead set on spitting on blizzard that you don't want to even think of what they are saying.

      Nowhere did I say that they did not screw up, LFR queues ARE a mess, factoring class diversity for LFR is the most stupid thing ever. That does not mean they are lying when they are saying they are giving it too much importance.

    12. It is not simple math so it does not work that way.

      And no, I am not so dead set on spitting on blizzard. I am not a hater, if I were a hater I would not write a blog about the game, if I were a hater I would not play the game, if I were a hater I would not care if I was lied to. If I were a hater I would not care at all.

      I am saying what he said was a lie because it was.

      It is entirely possible to say a "truth" with the intention to deceive. That is what that is. I will provide an example for you.

      If I were to say I have not downed mythic archie yet because I have not had the right make up for it what would that lead you to believe?

      You would think I was currently on it the way I said it right?

      If I said it that way my goal would be to give the impression I was at him without actually saying I was on him.

      In a word, what I said would be 100% truthful. However it would still be a lie, because the intention of what I said would be to deceive, to make you think I was currently on that boss.

      So the intention of that line was to deceive, which means it is a lie, just like me saying I have not downed mythic archie yet because I do not have the right make up for it would be a lie. Even if the underlining fact is truth, the way it was presented is a lie.

      He should have just said the truth which would be something like "there is an error in the code we are trying to correct as soon as possible"

      That... is what truth in this situation would look like.

  2. I don't find the idea that Blizz saw a problem and in trying to fix it made it worse absurd at all.

    There are too many players choosing from a small pool of classes & specs that are seen as viable (or even "OP"). The mix of classes you describe seems a good representation of the current raiding community, and if the LFR algorithm is churning out groups like that I surmise it didn't have a lot of options to chew over. The fault in the algorithm may be that it's taking too long to come to a decision given the limited number of choices it has to start with. Maybe they'll just put in a shorter timeout where after X minutes it'll just take whoever's been queuing the longest. I'm guessing here of course. The algorithm might include queue time and ilevel as well, but I doubt we'll ever find out.

    1. It is not absurd at all. Blizzard has a long and storied tradition of trying to "fix" things and making them worse.

      They need to just make it look for 2 tanks, 5 healers and 18 damage dealers. It is LFR, you do not, or at least should not, ever need class diversity.

      The idea of the LFR is to get in and out of there as fast as possible. Not to create the perfect raiding experience. If there even is some sort of system trying to create that in game I would love to ask the person who added it why they thought it was necessary.

    2. especially with personal loot, who cares about class diversity? It's a luxury but if it means faster queues it should be cut - just like they are talking seriously about making PVP faction neutral.


    3. I don't care about diversity, I want in and out as fast as possible personally. Others might feel different, but I do not care.

  3. So I'll just note that I never had much trouble in BRF LFR. It's only when HFC came out that the wait became unbearable. So it could be that they implemented new class balance algorithms to "fix" the issue you saw with getting a dozen hunters in one LFR, and that $%^# up the queue times.

    Either that or it was just the Grumpy Elf's standard bizarre RNG weirdness...

    1. I think they tried to "fix" something and broke it instead in 6.2. BRF queues were never that bad. Sure on an off time I might wait an hour and a half, but never the 3 hour wait I have had with HFC twice now.

      My luck is bad but my luck is not that bad. lol Others have commented on the long wait times themselves, so it is not just me. Even if sometimes it feels like it.

  4. Blizz has a long history of making Perfect the enemy of Good Enough. I think there is no question but what they tried to "improve" something that was not broke, because as you say there was not much of a problem with queue times in BRF.

    And yes, they did lie in the tweet, because even if they added in a diversity factor to the algorithm, "diversity" is not the problem, their crappy half-assed tweak is the problem. As is the fact that they have never bothered to explain why it changed in 6.2, or even that they recognized there is a problem, until this one cryptic tweet.

    Why they feel compelled to fix things that are not broken, and ignore huge problems just boggles my mind. It as if no one at Blizz even plays this game any more.

    1. There was no need to "fix" things because it was not broken to begin with.

      They are trying to perfect, as you said, when good enough would be fine for LFR.

  5. Grumpy I've always thought the cure for LFR times was for Blizzard to use in house bots to make up the missing players thus cutting the wait time to a more reasonable amount say 30 mins. ie the grp is full in 30 mins or the missing players are adds in be a blizzard bot system.

    1. 30 minutes should be the most it every takes, even at a slow time.

      I doubt they would ever go the NPC way, but that could be an option if they wanted to. The problem is the NPCs would end up being better players than most of the people that you run into in LFR. NPCS would not troll raid chat. NPCs would not ninja pull. NPCs would not AFK. NPCs would not perform poorly. NPCs would not ignore mechanics and stand in crap making it harder on healers. NPCs, would just be a better option.

      This is why they will never add NPCs to play along side us, because if they did, I would do LFR on every single character every week and I would opt for (if I could) groups with NPCs only.

      I would absolutely LOVE for blizzard to add NPC players.

      So what I am saying is I support this idea. But it will never happen.

    2. Their fear would be that no one would ever play with anyone else if they allowed us to have NPCs around us that are better then humans.

      Would make for an interesting world first race however. It would come down to who is the best "player" not the best team. Would be interesting for sure.

  6. This is totally anecdotal, but yesterday, I queued for and completed all 3 HFC LFR wings in less than 90 minutes... Unlike the previous week, where it took 3 days and about 5hrs... (I gave up waiting for the queue one day)

    So something got "fixed" for me.

    @Truwellan: The problem with bots is that we're waiting on Tanks/Healers and I don't think those roles can be handled by bots.

    1. My time this week was 2 hours total, including waiting and clearing time for all 3.

      Whatever bug was there they must have fixed it. I still do not buy the idea it was because they were trying to diversify the groups. I think that was some lie made up to sound like they were trying to do something good for us, when in fact it was someone just screwed up the code in the background.

      I do think that bots could work. The problem is, as I responded to Truwellan, they would be better players than any of us could ever be. People would rather play with them than real people. And they can not really make them "bad" because we would just complain about stupid bots, so they would have to be good.

  7. Queues don't seem so long in eu. Then again I only queued on support roles.

    1. This week was the first week it did not take me at least an hour to get in. As a matter of fact it took me two hours to do and wait for all three, total. Which is fine.

      I think there was a bug in the system and instead of saying that they blamed it on some "diversity" thing. I guess they should that sounded better than "someone Fed up."