I was going to name this post "Don't judge a book by its cover" but I did not believe enough people would understand it was a post about gear and item level. Well, at least until they started to read it.
I did the new LFR last night because I wanted to see what they changed with the bosses. I also might need to tank this week so figured I would get it out of the way on the first night. I like doing them all at least once so I can see the fights from the perspective of LFR. It helps me explain the fights to people that might have only done it in the LFR. But that is an all together different post, lets get to the topic at hand.
As fewer and fewer actual raiders do the LFR when I go in I am usually the LFR hero, a phrase most people use for its derogatory meaning, but lets face it, for a smooth group to happen there needs to be an LFR hero. Our group found that said hero was not me. Nope, not even close.
There was a mage in the group that was destroying me. We one shot the first boss, two shot the second and one shot the third. He owned me every step of the way. The closest I came to him was 12K. He was rocking it. I'd get to 150K on the pull, he would do 175K, I could not beat him and I actually was trying.
As normal I take a look at the gear of people that beat me, or people of the same class so I can use it as a means to compare how I am doing to them. If they are doing better I will view over their logs to see what they did that I did not so I could learn. I am a geek that way, excuse me. But when I looked at the mage it was not to learn, it was to see how he was geared and maybe glean into things a little as to why and how he was doing so well.
He had one piece of 695 gear, one piece of 701 gear and then everything else was 710 or higher. It would be very easy for me to just chalk it up to that was why he was beating me. His item level was 715 while mine is a pitiful 687. With a nearly 30 item level advantage he is supposed to be beating me right?
But I don't just take item levels word for it. I looked at what he did, how he did it, and I saw that he was not beating me "just" because of his item level. He was a damn decent player to say the least. As I said, it would be easy to just write it off and think he was doing good because his gear was carrying him but that was most definitely not the case. He knew how to use the gear he had.
There could have been others in there with the same item level as him and they could have done poorly because they did not know how to get the most out of the gear. I see that all the time.
But the big reason for this post was not to point out that it is the person that makes the gear work for them and not the gear itself doing all the work, but that with the T2 gear and 695 upgrades, people need to start to realize that is it not all about item level.
I mentioned my 687 item level, which for a raider is pretty poor, but once again that does not mean I would do poorly. For my gear I do okay and oft times do better than those with much better gear. I could easily get to a higher item level using some baleful upgrades, might even push 700 if I did that, but that would not be the best gear for me. What gear you use matters.
Does the fact I was beating everyone else outside of him mean that I am that much better of a player than them? Absolutely not.
I just made better choices. Sure I had bad luck never winning a heroic tier piece in BRF but I do have the normal 4 piece which means I am stuck with four 670 pieces. It also means I have four very effective, when used together, pieces of gear even if they are of a lower item level.
Put me along side someone that just did the T2 grind, upgraded anything they could get, and purchased a few BoEs off the auction house and you will see someone with an item level over 700 but someone that is not even remotely capable of matching my hunters numbers. Why is that?
Because the stats on gear matters, the bonuses on gear matters, almost just as much as hitting the right keys in the right order. There are those of us that pay such close attention to our rotation that we try to delay a shot if chimaera has less than 0.3 seconds to come off cooldown to try to get maximum damage and while perhaps that is a little more skill based, choosing to wear the best gear you have and not be sucked into thinking item level is no less of a skill.
Choosing a mastery haste baleful belt to upgrade as marksman is like delaying your shot by a full 2 seconds so you do not miss it. It is a DPS loss. All because you made the wrong choice of upgrading the mastery haste belt instead of a critical multistrike one for example.
Two people wearing the exact same gear and at the exact same item level could see greatly different results. One guy upgraded whatever baleful gear he came along and the other picked and chose to get the best stats he could for his spec. One will surely do better than the other, in a large amount, even if equally skilled, because one is wearing the "right' gear for him and the other is not.
What gear you choose matters, it matters a lot. Sometimes choosing a lower item level piece of gear is the correct choice. You can not just judge someone by their item level. It would be like me saying that mage only beat me because he had a lot more gear than I did when that is just not true. Sure it helped him create the large margin he did, but he beat me because he was skilled enough to use that gear to the best of his ability.
You can not say he did well just because of his gear just the same as you can not tell me I will do poorly just because of mine. I applied to a pug that was asking people to be capable of pulling 40K. The guys asked me why I signed up, he wanted 40K and there was no way I could pull that at my item level. He, of course, was wrong. He judged just on item level, which means he judged wrong. Sadly all people have to go on is item level when looking at a glance, but if you want a successful group, taking a look at the gear that comprises that item level matters a lot more than the item level itself sometimes.
You can't judge a book by its cover and you sure as hell can not judge a character by their item level.
Day Twenty-One - Nice
6 hours ago
I love it when someone of the same spec destroys me in LFR because I always learn something. Just yesterday I realized I was geming and enchanting an alt wrong when another player topped the meters. They had much better gear, but a quick look at their armory helped me immensely.
ReplyDeleteI like it too. It gives a direct connection doing the same thing with another so it makes it easy to compare and try to learn from. Sure looking at some random log of a hunter that did well can teach you, but looking at a log of a hunter that did well doing the same exact thing, same exact time, and same exact buffs and such, is so much better to get information from.
DeleteIt is amazing what people can learn when they really want to. I wonder how many people actually look at what other people do. Not just see it, but look at it.
This has been something I have been struggling with this whole expansion, not weather or not iLVL is king but attempting to find what really is the best gear combination per the stats. I have always believed this is a "numbers" game and that if you have the right combination of stats you can do amazing DPS, HPS etc...
ReplyDeleteI compare myself to others I LFR or PUG with all the time, especially when they out-DPS me. I figure I am doing something wrong and when I see that I am "better" geared I then realize that I am playing with someone who has some skills.
This expansion my DPS has been rather poor, I know I can and should be able to do better but I just can't put my finger on it. I have analyzed logs through AMR and WoL and I just don't see where the big disconnect is. The one thing that I do see is that some Hunters are able to get off more shots of a particular shot but I have no idea how that could be unless I am haste deficient. Again, trying to find the proper mix of Haste/Crit/MultiStrike is bit time consuming because you got to catalog the gear in spreadsheet so you can properly compare the stats.
I switched from SV to play MM but the cast times for most all the shots for me take more than 2 seconds except for Steady shot and this game play seems too slow for me but I am getting used to it. However, I have recently got some decent gear drops over the past weekend that have brought my BM DPS up, mostly due to the Mastery/Haste combination that I might just switch back to that until I get my 4pc tier. That 1sec. Aimed shot looks to be the big damage dealer that could push it way up.
However, I just have not had this much difficulty playing a hunter since I first started back at the beginning of Ulduar. Maybe its time for me to hang up the bow and do something else with my time. I'm sure the family would be happier.
I would say on most pieces with all things being equal item level is usually best. But gem slots and tier sets and trinket procs do throw that off.
DeleteFor the longest time I was using the 655 scales of doom even if I had 3 other trinkets with a higher item level because it was better for me. Now I am keeping the 670 tier set even if I have an item for that slot of 695 or better for every one. Because the tier bonus is worth it.
It does make it harder to judge sometimes. You can not just say, this is a better piece because it has a higher item level. The biggest example of that with the "simple' pieces is say a normal piece with perfect stats and a warforged piece with bad stats. That 6 items level, while higher, does not make up for the secondary's if one has good stats and the other bad ones.
For no proc shots, like chim, take the length of the fight, divide it by the cooldown of the spell, and then that is how many you should be shooting in a "perfect" work. Take into account if there are any down times of course. But that is how you can sort of notice if you are missing more opportunities. Even delaying a second here and there can add up to losing multiple shots a fight and that is your big hitter as MM.
If it is something that can come off a proc, like thrill of the hunt aimed shots, that comes down to luck. There is some, well a lot, of luck involved in doing well. Someone using thrill with good luck could very well end up getting off twice as many aimed shots while you could be stuck doing a steady.
Personally I wish blizzard would remove the luck factor. I've seen myself burst at 160K and at 70K all based on luck. Sucks that it matters that much to be lucky. Even more so when you are unlucky.
You will get used to it, it just takes time. I hated the standing still and cast time of focusing when I first was using survival, but I got used to it. Practice practice, practice. That is what you need, then it will become muscle memory and the cast times will feel natural. Also, when you get the 4 piece and aimed shot becomes instant it will finally make marksman the way it should be naturally to begin with which will smooth it out a lot.
"This expansion my DPS has been rather poor, I know I can and should be able to do better but I just can't put my finger on it."
DeleteHave you ever just literally gone to a DPS target dummy and done nothing but DPS it for 10+ minutes?
Combine that with Simcrafting your theoretical DPS (turn off the raid buffs you don't have) and WoL analysis and you can figure out what's causing problems.
@Balkoth
DeleteThat can help, I know I pour over logs and spend time just banging out on a dummy but I still have wide swings in my DPS depending on if I am lucky that day or not.
I think I read a post somewhere that someone has mentioned that the numbers you see on simcraft are averaged for luck. Which means to always read them as + or - 20%. Meaning if you sim at 50K doing 60K or doing 40K is within reason based on luck.
I've seen it personally. On the same fight in the same spec with the same gear I have done 56K once and 44K the next. Luck of the proc. It matters too much.
I personally would love to see blizzard develop better balance in terms of smoothing out luck. I want my DPS to be based on my skill and not based on if I get a proc or not.
"Which means to always read them as + or - 20%."
DeleteNo. Simcraft will literally tell you the exact variance it encountered over the 10,000 trials or whatever. I just ran a quick Sim on a default Auspicious Spirits (which is a very RNG crit dependent spec), for example, and it told me the DPS was 43.2k with a variance of 16% -- and you can even open a graph showing the distribution if you care enough.
Then I ran a Sim on a warlock in my guild and got 58.3k with a range of 13%. Others will probably be even smaller. The final result *is* averaged, but that doesn't mean it varied by 20%.
"On the same fight in the same spec with the same gear I have done 56K once and 44K the next."
If this is with the 4 piece from BRF resetting Bestial Wrath then that can certainly be a large factor, yes. But over the course of a longer fight in a large raid the overall raid DPS will average out.
As I said I do not remember where I read it, but I do remember what the person said about the 20%. I will paraphrase it as best as I can recall for you.
DeleteSimcraft numbers are simulated in the absolute perfect conditions and do not take mechanics into the equation. Even classes with the least amount of random nature to them can experience up to 10% variation when doing 10.000 iterations.
Once you factor in the human factor and mechanics and compare logs to simcraft estimations you will find that 20% variation + or - from those numbers is a much more reasonable estimation. No one is perfect and mechanics can either be punishing or you can get very lucky.
With that said, you agree there are divination, so we made some progress. Now I need to get you to accept that fights have these annoying little things called mechanics that can either help or harm your numbers.
Lets take the best patchwork example this expansion, gruul. If you get petrified your numbers get hurt, if you don't your numbers do just fine. Placement of the cave in, movement from the overhead smash, the petrify etc, can all either hurt your numbers or be forgiving if you are not targeted. So that is why the average of simcarft is closer to 20% than to 10% minimum or the 13% to 16% you mentioned.
So yes, 20% is probably the low end of the + or - because, as mentioned, simcraft lives in the perfect world with no mechanics and no chance for human error.
Sure, it is a complete guesstimate but it has more basis in fact (mechanics) than your saying it is only 16% on simcraft which is simulated in the perfect world with on mechanics.
"Now I need to get you to accept that fights have these annoying little things called mechanics that can either help or harm your numbers.
DeleteLets take the best patchwork example this expansion, gruul. If you get petrified your numbers get hurt, if you don't your numbers do just fine."
That still won't ever generate +20%. Mechanics like that will *hurt* your DPS compared to Patchwerk simcraft but they will never *help* it.
If you want to claim something like Gruul can result in +10% to -20% fine, but that wasn't your original claim.
And, of course, on a lot of fights you're going to potentially being massively higher or massively lower than Simcraft Patchwerk in terms of things that have nothing to do with luck at all (in terms of encounter mechanics or class/role mechanics).
So it all goes back to what I originally said.
DeleteThe sim number is basically an average of what you might be able to expect. It could be + or - 20%. And like I said, that was from a theory crafter, not from me. And from what I have seen in my own game play, I agree that is possible.
Didn't Blizz want to make the gearing process easier? Looks to me they failed big time (again) :P
ReplyDeleteRauxis, chosen of CAT
Yeah, I would agree. It seems like it is actually harder now than easier. Random gem slots also throw things off. Random is bad, just bad. Wish blizzard would ditch this old and dated idea of random is good content.
DeleteI'm not a fan of the current system either. Too many variables. I'm ok with a little bit of random, but this is too much. They should either get rid of warforged or not make gems random. That would at least get rid of one variable.
DeleteI agree. Some random does add to the game. Too much however makes it more annoying than anything else. Each piece of gear ends up being like a dozen of different pieces all due to random. Would love to get something off a boss and think, awesome I got it, instead of what I think now, no gem slot, no warfarged, this sucks.
Delete"Didn't Blizz want to make the gearing process easier? Looks to me they failed big time (again) :P"
DeleteThey did and they succeeded. People are obsessing over things that make a 1-2% difference (or less) in DPS or whatever in *Normal* mode. Even on Mythic that's usually irrelevant.
"Would love to get something off a boss and think, awesome I got it, instead of what I think now, no gem slot, no warfarged, this sucks."
You do realize that you're complaining about Blizzard adding something that's a pure bonus, yes? It's like saying "It used to be that the winning the lottery gave me 5 million dollars. Now they changed it so the winner gets 5 million dollars with a small chance of getting another 500k. I can't imagine how much it sucks to only win the 5 million."
I don't know about you, but I don't actually expect to win when I play the lottery. And not several times either. I do expect to get better gear for all slots while killing bosses though. Also, new gear replaces old gear, so it's not really that much big of a win. If it's just 9 iLvls apart, old being warforged and socketed, it just might not be worth at all. More in line with something like winning a coke can in a bag of chips that you have to go to a specific shop to pick up. Sure, it's a win, but meh.
Delete@Balkoth
Delete1-2% matters. I would upgrade a piece of gear if it gave me 50 DPS more because 50 more is still 50 more.
Pure bonus? Not even close. Take 2 players of equal skill, one with all "bonus" gear and one with none. Which does better?
If it effects your performance it is not a bonus. It is something you want. Simple as that. A bonus is something that does not directly benefit you. And yes, even 1% more is still worth getting.
@James
I had that issue the other night. Had my 691 heroic warfogred neck with 2 perfect stats for me and a gem slot on and a 700 dropped, not warforged, no gem slot, and with my two worst stats.
Blah, does not feel fun. I am better staying with the lower item level. Even checked it out, just in case, and it would be loss. A minor one mind you, but a loss none the less. I just wish that getting upgrades felt good more often, even more so with how rarely I see one.
Basically that is what this post is about. Sure the 700 would give me a higher item level, but it is not the better piece.
"If it's just 9 iLvls apart, old being warforged and socketed, it just might not be worth at all."
DeleteSure, but that's not what Grumpy was arguing. He was saying that even if he got an item 30 ilvls higher he'd be annoyed if it wasn't warforged/socketed.
Also, 9 ilvls is almost certainly an upgrade, even with the socket, 90%+ of the time, as an FYI.
"1-2% matters. I would upgrade a piece of gear if it gave me 50 DPS more because 50 more is still 50 more."
I admit, I'm really curious why you think you're better able to judge how much 1-2% more DPS matters in actual practice compared to a Mythic raid leader. I'm the one right now who's *doing* the fights relatively tuned to a razor's edge and who has told his raiders not to even bother with Augment runes on most pulls/fights because they aren't going to make a difference.
Yet we were the only two night guild in the US who killed H Archimonde week one, only two night guild in the US that killed 2 mythic bosses week two, and are currently rated the top two night mythic guild in the US. Is that just "luck" again?
"If it effects your performance it is not a bonus."
Fights are tuned ignoring Warforged/Socketed bonuses. They were introduced solely to make sure farming bosses still gave some bonuses even after everyone had the initial drops and to give another boost to guilds making slower progress. So yes, they are a bonus.
"Sure the 700 would give me a higher item level, but it is not the better piece."
Which is solely due to the gem socket, at least for 90%+ of specs and items.
@Balkoth
Delete"Sure, but that's not what Grumpy was arguing. He was saying that even if he got an item 30 ilvls higher he'd be annoyed if it wasn't warforged/socketed."
Please stop posting here if you are just going to continue to make up crap. I never said that and you know it.
If something is 30 item levels higher just the increase in the main stat alone is going to make up for the loss of proper secondary stats.
Yes, sometimes going from two perfect stats to the two worst stats will result in a minor upgrade, but because of the main stats it will still be a good upgrade.
What I did say, which you once again took completely out of context, is that breaking up the tier set bonus for one off piece that is, even 30 item levels higher, would be a net loss because you would lose your tier set bonus.
If you have a tier set bonus that is as HUGE as the hunter tier set bonus you would be better with 4 670 tier pieces than 4 pieces from T2 that are 695 item level.
Just stop making crap up. Please.
I would be doing mythic too if my guild was capable of it. Do not confuse the fact that you "do" them to mean you know more. And do not confuse the fact that someone that does not do them knows less. You can not judge a single player based on the group of people they like playing with. That is a completely ignorant assumption.
As for why I am in a better place to judge than you is simple. I know math. Apparently you do not.
1% better is 1% better. Not exactly sure why you are trying to argue 1% better is not 1% better. Sorry to tell you, you are wrong. 1% better is 1% better, no matter how much you argue it.
Just because you raid mythic does not make you right. It just makes you someone that raids mythic. Nothing more. It does not give any more credit to your cause and quite honestly if you ever have to fall back on the "I raid at a higher level then you so you have to listen to me" to make your argument it automatically invalidates anything you say. If you had facts you would state facts. Saying that is a last ditch effort because you know you are wrong and hope that could sway me. Not going to happen.
So, I will be waiting for the facts that adding 1% is bad. Please do tell mr mythic raid leader how having 1% more of something you need is a bad thing. I am waiting.
"So yes, they are a bonus."
DeleteNo, they are not. At best it is your "opinion" it is not a bonus and it is my "opinion" it is not. We could leave it at that, but I shall continue once more, just for the hell of it.
I have an idea, I challenge you to do this too. If it is only a bonus, then from now on, as raid leader you can do this, every piece of gear warforged or with a gem slot disenchant it instead.
As you said, it is only a bonus and you do not need it. So disenchant it. Tell your raiders they do not need it, it is just a bonus, it means nothing. Lets see how well that goes over.
After half your raid team quits your guild because you are disenchanting their upgrades because they do not really need them, you can come back to me and tell me that it is just a bonus and doesn't matter.
If it is something people active seek, it is what they are going for. It is not a bonus. A bonus is something you get while not wanting it. People want gem socket gear, they want war forged gear.
Here is a comparison for you. I get my coffee every morning at dunkin donuts. Same thing every day, same girls at the counter. They know me and once in a blue moon they throw me a donut for free because I am a regular customer.
The donut is a bonus, it is not expected and if they never give me one again I will be completely fine with it. But if I go there looking for a donut it is no longer a bonus, it is something I want. it is why I am there.
Same as me killing a boss hoping for a warforged or gem slot piece. I am killing for boss for that piece, it is what I am there for. It is not a bonus. It is only a bonus if you do not want it and you are not rooting for it. People want those pieces and they are hoping to get them. Not a bonus, sorry.
"Please stop posting here if you are just going to continue to make up crap. I never said that and you know it."
Delete...seriously? You said, and I quote:
"Would love to get something off a boss and think, awesome I got it, instead of what I think now, no gem slot, no warfarged, this sucks."
What in the world *IS* that supposed to mean, then? Cause it sure looks like you're saying that unless the item is warforged/socketed then it sucks because you wish it was better.
"What I did say, which you once again took completely out of context"
Uh, you're the one taking stuff out of context here. I never mentioned anything about set bonuses in that particular section of my comment, which was about socketed/warforged items in general.
"1% better is 1% better. Not exactly sure why you are trying to argue 1% better is not 1% better."
Because that was not your argument. Your argument was
"1-2% matters. I would upgrade a piece of gear if it gave me 50 DPS more because 50 more is still 50 more"
The question is not whether 1% is 1% better, but whether that 1% actually matters.
"It does not give any more credit to your cause and quite honestly if you ever have to fall back on the "I raid at a higher level then you so you have to listen to me" to make your argument it automatically invalidates anything you say."
No, you're thinking of a logical fallacy. I'd read this article (or something like it): http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
or this one: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Argumentum_ad_verecundiam
To quote...
"It is not always a fallacy to say that "So-and-so says that X is true, therefore X is probably true." For this discussion, it is necessary to distinguish between an expert and an authority.
If a famous astronomer says that the universe is expanding, then it is very likely that the universe really is expanding. If a qualified doctor says that a patient is suffering from Parkinson's disease, that's most likely the case. In these examples, the astronomer and the doctor are experts in a field, and are addressing topics within their area of expertise. As experts, they have studied their respective fields, are familiar with the state of the art, have studied how to recognize certain events, features or conditions, know how to recognize many problems that might lead a layman astray and how to work around them, and so forth. When we take an expert's word for something, we are saying, in effect, that if we had the time to learn as much about the field as the expert has, we would be able to examine the evidence and reach the same conclusion.
Naturally, this applies only to experts speaking within their field of expertise: there is no a priori reason to take an astronomer more seriously than anyone else on the subject of foreign policy or theology."
So if I were to say 'I'm a Mythic raid leader of a highly successful guild and I'm here to tell you that Chocolate is the best ice cream flavor" then that would be a fallacy because me being an expert in Mythic raid leading has nothing to do with judging ice cream flavors.
But if I was to say "'I'm a Mythic raid leader of a highly successful guild and I'm here to tell you that Mythic High Council is a harder fight then Mythic Hellfire Assault" then that is *not* a fallacy because that falls within my area of expertise. It is still possible that I am *wrong,* but it hardly invalidates anything I say.
See the difference?
Delete"If you had facts you would state facts."
Exactly what facts would you accept? If I went and assembled 10 normal PUGs, did a bunch of normal bosses, and then did a detailed WarcraftLogs analysis showing how none of the wipes that happened would have been prevented by everyone doing 1% more DPS, would that satisfy you?
Because that is, in effect, what I am doing -- I am saying that in my past experience as a raid leader (meaning hundreds or thousands of hours of raiding and analyzing logs/wipes) that doing 1% more DPS is almost always irrelevant, particularly in Normal or earlier Heroic bosses. The only difference is that I didn't record all of that to collect a bunch of data to present to you.
I mean, if the raid leaders of Paragon and Method posted here and said "Yeah, 1% more DPS is irrelevant except for some specific mythic bosses" would you also say that unless they present "facts" to back up their statement that it is completely invalidated?
If your answer is "yes" then you are saying that you think your expertise on the subject is superior to ours and thus you're equipped to determine that our conclusions are incorrect. And *that* is a hell of an argument to make.
"No, they are not. At best it is your "opinion" it is not a bonus and it is my "opinion" it is not."
Grumpy, there's a lot of stuff that's debatable about WoW, but this is not one of them. The content is literally tuned completely ignoring Warforged/sockets. The developers assume you have "plain" gear when tuning DPS/HPS checks. Thus anything beyond plain gear is, in fact, a bonus (by the definition of the word "bonus"). There's no opinion involved in those statements.
The only ways to *logically* disagree with the above statements would be to
A, assert/prove that the developers take Warforged/socketed items into account when tuning content
B, refine "bonus" to mean something else
"Tell your raiders they do not need it, it is just a bonus, it means nothing."
I am seriously starting to wonder if you're just trolling me now. If your boss came up to you and said "Hey, good news, the company did so well that we decided to give all the employees a bonus, so here's a check for $5,000" would you reply "It is just a bonus, it means nothing?"
That is a *complete* non sequitur -- something being a bonus doesn't therefore result in it meaning nothing...somehow.
"A bonus is something you get while not wanting it."
That, in fact, is *NOT* the definition of a bonus. A bonus *can* be a surprise but whether it's a surprise or not does not determine whether it is a bonus.
You are literally trying to redefine words here to mean what you want them to mean. I'm not even sure what to say.
What it means is, for example, boots drop off the boss and normal ones drop. If they are an upgrade, awesome, if they aren't, it is lame because they are not warforged or with a gem slot. Heck, even if they are an upgrade without those things it still feels like a let down because you wanted them to be warforged or with a gem slot. It feels like you lost not getting those things instead of just being happy you got an upgrade. Not seeing those feels like a loss.
DeleteBeing that option is there, that is the one you want. Anything else is just boring and bland. I would rather NOT have the option for extra on a piece of gear than to leave it up to the RNG. I would rather be happy to get a drop than unhappy because it did not have a gem slot or was not warforged. Many people like this change, I personally do not. I want to remove RNG from the game, not add more to it.
"Naturally, this applies only to experts speaking within their field of expertise:"
How does raiding mythic make you an expert in math? Then add to the fact that doing mythic does not prove you are better than anyone else or know more than anyone else. Never has. It just means you raid mythic. Nothing more. Anyone can do it. So no, it does not make you an authority on playing the game and sure as hell does not make you an authority on math.
You also can't use the argument from authority to reinforce the idea you are right unless people recognized as an authority, which I don't. An expert on mythic fight tactics sure I can buy that, but not on math.
I will trust hunter theory crafters over you. I will trust known theory crafters over you. I will trust the people debating over best in slot that crunch numbers all the time over you. Heck, I would trust myself over you. All of those have more validity as an authority on the subject.
Not to mention, what we are talking about you have absolutely no more expertise over anyone else that has every played the game, even people who never stepped foot into a raid. Heck, you have no more expertise over someone that never even played the game in this case. It is math, 1% better is 1% better. Stop trying to argue it, you are dead wrong. Deal with it.
Now, if we were to get into a debate about tactics on mythic gorefiend for example and I said something and you said "no you are wrong" then you could use the "I have done it card". That type of argument is were you do have a valid case for being an authority. You would be absolutely right to assert your authority in that case because you earned that right.
You raiding mythic makes you no more an authority on math than me having a cup of coffee this morning makes me an expert on coffee futures. That is why you using the "I have done mythic" card did not work here. It is math, not mythic raiding we are talking here.
As for what facts I would want, they are simple. You are taking the stance that 1% better is not 1% better. I would like you to prove that. Do not say "I raid mythic, trust me", nope, not going to work. You said having 1% better stats is not better. I want facts to prove that.
You keep thinking 1% better does not matter and I will keep living life in the real world were better is better. As a "mythic raider" I would expect you to know better. Heck, even a "normal raider" that had a 0% wipe would know better that 1% can make a difference. So I would say your expertise failed you.
Lets just let it go, you are wrong. 1% better is 1% better, let it go.
You changed my mind on another topic in another post because you made a valid argument. I am not always right and I am willing to admit when I am wrong, why can't you not just do the same and let this one go.
I am not even sure why we are still debating over it at this point. It's over. Better is better, end of discussion.
On the bonus topic...
DeleteBeing method killed the last boss in way lower gear than you will, and massively lower gear than I would, that means we should be able to do that too. All the gear you or I get is just "bonus" right? It isn't needed to clear the content, they proved that. So it is a bonus by your definition.
Nope, it is what we need to clear the content. Could we do it in less gear? Absolutely. If we found 19 other people to play at an acceptable skill level required to do it and put in the hours, yes we could. No doubt about that. But we do not raid with those other 19 players, we do not put in those hours, so we need that gear.
Would you call all that gear bonus?
No, it is what you need to get the job done. Even if you did not need it to get the job done, being able to do more is always preferable. You could be beating a boss without even thinking, would you turn down gear that is an upgrade? No.
Warforged or gem slots are upgrades, they are not bonus. You can have it one way or the other, you can not have it both. Either you do not need gear to down the bosses because they are only "bonus" or you enjoy all upgrades you get, plain, warforged and / or with a gem slot.
They are upgrades, they are not bonuses.
I'll give you the option for every slot you have. You have 4 options. You can take one for every single slot, make your choice.
1) Plain
2) Warforged
3) Gem slot
4) Warforged with a gem slot.
Now, find me one person that will take all #1 and say, the other stuff is not needed, it is just bonus. Seriously, find me one person that would say that. If you can find someone that says that then I will show you someone with some mental issues.
Everyone would take all option 4 across the board. Because they are upgrades, not bonuses.
Stop calling upgrades bonuses. There is nothing bonus about them. They are upgrades we seek out. They are the item we want. They are not bonus, they are the drops we are looking for.
Here is a good example that just came to mind, hope this helps explain why they are not bonus.
5 years ago...
I keep getting the bracers off the 4th boss but the ones off the 7th are best in slot for me. Sure I will use the ones I got off the 4th boss but I want the ones off the 7th. Heck, even the ones off the 9th boss would be better than these.
Today...
I keep getting the bracers off the 4th boss with no gem slot or warforged on them but the ones that are warforged with a gem slot are best in slot for me. Sure I will use the ones I got off the 4th boss but I want the ones that are warforged with a gem slot. Heck, even the ones that only have one or the other would be better than these.
See, this is no different then it was years ago. You are still killing a boss over and over trying to get the best piece for yourself.
They are not bonus. There is no difference between someone saying I want the ones off the 7th boss instead 5 years ago and saying I want the ones that are warforged with a gem slot now.
The only difference is that getting your BiS is harder now thanks to limiting it by RNG. It is not bonus. Heck, even blizzard said they are not bonus. Blizzards own words were (paraphrasing but I believe this is the exact wording) "we want to make it harder for people to get best in slot gear".
Again, not bonus. Not even blizzard considers it bonus. So why do you?
"Heck, even if they are an upgrade without those things it still feels like a let down because you wanted them to be warforged or with a gem slot."
DeleteIsn't that exactly what I said you thought and you said I was making crap up? Remember this?...
"Sure, but that's not what Grumpy was arguing. He was saying that even if he got an item 30 ilvls higher he'd be annoyed if it wasn't warforged/socketed."
"Please stop posting here if you are just going to continue to make up crap. I never said that and you know it."
So...what's going on?
"How does raiding mythic make you an expert in math?"
It doesn't, but we're talking about what matters in raiding. Or I am, at least, you keep trying to bring up stuff I've never claimed.
And my point is that in the vast majority of cases (*especially* for Normal raiders) 1% more DPS will not result in any practical changes. You will not kill Gorefiend in your normal group due to having 1% or 5% or even 20% more DPS if you're wiping to Touch of Doom and other stuff before even reaching the first Feast of Souls phase.
You will not kill Iskar by having 1% more DPS if everyone keeps getting thrown off the edge by the wind.
You will not kill Socrethar by having 1% more DPS if people cannot interrupt his casts correctly.
Etc.
To use a real world metaphor, if your boss came up to you and said "Good news, we're increasing your annual salary by $1"...would you care? Would it change anything in your life at all? Yes, you have $1 more per year and that is strictly speaking better than not having $1 more per year. But that $1 will not make a difference to you.
And that metaphor isn't even accurate because there you got the $1 without having to invest extra time to get it. Getting that 1% more DPS in WoW means you need to spend time/cash on *something,* whether that means time spent figuring out the best pieces of gear or time/money spent actually getting the gear. And that's time you could use (and by "you" I mean "people like your Normal raiders") to work on mechanics/watch boss guides/etc instead...which will be a far more significant difference.
"You are taking the stance that 1% better is not 1% better."
No, I am not. I am saying that being 1% better doesn't actually matter.
Are you not able to see that distinction?
"Being method killed the last boss in way lower gear than you will, and massively lower gear than I would, that means we should be able to do that too."
If everyone in our respective guilds was as good as everyone in Method and we put in the same number of wipes (472) then yes, we should.
However, everyone in our respective guilds is not as good as everyone in Method and Method was doing the boss undergeared. Archimonde is also tuned for a higher item level than Method killed it with, they just outskilled it.
That said, I think you're underestimating the amount of gear that Method had. Do you know what "split runs" are? Method had the equivalent of 18-24 weeks worth of Heroic gear while working on Archimonde plus 3 weeks of Mythic gear.
"So it is a bonus by your definition."
DeleteNo, because Archimonde was not tuned assuming their lower ilvl. Everyone having the legendary ring for Archimonde will certainly be a bonus, though, and make it significantly easier (I'm expecting 200-300 wipes).
I have no idea where this "if it's a bonus it must not matter" idea came from and it is very confusing. Nothing about something being a bonus implies it doesn't matter.
"Either you do not need gear to down the bosses because they are only "bonus" or you enjoy all upgrades you get, plain, warforged and / or with a gem slot."
Just to emphasize: where is this "only a bonus" thing coming from?
Because my answer would be "We will technically have more than enough gear to down the bosses on Mythic as we meet them but I will certainly not turn down any bonuses (meaning Legendary rings, Warforged items, socketed items, etc) we get along the way to make it easier."
You're trying to set up some kind of false dichotomy where none exists.
"Now, find me one person that will take all #1 and say, the other stuff is not needed, it is just bonus."
The entire Blizzard raid tuning team. Next!
"There is no difference between someone saying I want the ones off the 7th boss instead 5 years ago and saying I want the ones that are warforged with a gem slot now."
Yes, there is: Blizzard assumed you were using the better bracers 5 years ago when tuning the bosses and is not assuming you are using Warforged or socketed items for bosses now.
"Blizzards own words were (paraphrasing but I believe this is the exact wording) "we want to make it harder for people to get best in slot gear"."
You're thinking of this post:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10703970357
And this section:
"The design intent of these additional qualities on items is to make itemization more exciting and to give it more longevity. Rather than waiting weeks to get a breastplate, you might get one pretty quickly—but to get a true “best-in-slot” item will take much more effort and a bit of luck. "
And this goes back to gear nerfing content over time -- Blizzard wanted to spice up the 17th kill of H&F while you were working on Blackhand by giving the items a chance to have a socket or Warforged. Because otherwise chances are you need absolutely zero items from the boss even though you might need items from Kromog still (and have to kill H&F to get to Kromog).
With WF/sockets, though, you at least have a chance to get a minor upgrade from time to time which means killing H&F again isn't quite as dull and it's a minor nerf to content over the very long term.
How do you equate me saying that if something does not have a gem slot or is not warforged into meaning that it is not an upgrade even if it is 30 item levels higher?
DeleteI do not see the connection you are trying to make.
What does, say, a 685 piece vs a 691 piece or a 685 piece with a gem slot have to do with something that is 30 item levels higher?
That is why I said you are making up things. I never once said do not take something 30 item levels higher because it is not warforged and does not have a gem slot.
Do not talk mechanics when we are talking numbers. Of course you will not down bosses if people died to something. It is silly for you to even bring that into the conversation.
1% better is 1% better. Stop tying to say it is not.
You are making silly arguments to try and say 1% better is not better if you die or is not better if you wipe at 80% or whatever. No shit Sherlock. But it is still 1% better. Give it up. You can not win this argument by trying to add conditionals to it. It is math. 1% better is always 1% better.
I know they did split runs to funnel gear, but they still did it in way less of an item level than 99.9% of the player base would be capable of. We, the rest of the world, need those upgrades.
Gem slots and warforged items are upgrades. They are not bonuses.
I'd be willing to say avoidance, speed and leech are bonus even if they all do have a practice use. I would love for all my gear to have those, speed more than anything, makes moving from stuff have room for error, but still, those could be called bonuses. If you get one you are happy to have it, but it will not change your gearing or stat weights. Gems and warforged can, and will, because they are not bonus, they are flat out upgrades.
Gywndel - Thunderhorn EU
ReplyDeleteRight on the Money. If I may, perhaps you could write something about how to tackle browsing your logs and learning from them. It is something I have always put off because of time restrictions. Then again, if I can get Simcraft to work and start simming I can probably do that as well.
I am no expert. There are a few things I look for and know to look for of course, but I am sure there are people out there that can delve into it a lot better than I can.
DeleteWhen playing a class I do not play often it is easier because I will see them using abilities I am not which shows me I am doing something wrong. lol For a hunter it has more to do with how many shots they are getting in compared to mine, up times on buffs like the one from standing still, things like that which I keep an eye out for. Usually when I see a hunter in similar gear that beat me it is usually that they handled things better than I did. I saw one beat me by 15K on beast lord months back and noticed he was saving FF and barrage back for the adds. Ah, that is how he did it. I "could" do that too I thought but did not. Adds went down fast enough, did not need to cheese the charts for more DPS. So even if you want to do higher numbers, it is not always needed, so to speak. One day when he was not there I did it however and did 20K more than I normally do. All thanks to seeing how he pooled up just for that. It is fun to DPS whore sometimes on farm stuff.
"If I may, perhaps you could write something about how to tackle browsing your logs and learning from them."
DeleteFor what class/spec? Or generic?
I could do generic for anyone, that is the basics.
DeleteI know how to look deeper into some of it because I have played around a lot (admittedly with hunters) while bored at work but not really sure I could write up a good guide personally.
I too would love too see how to analyze the classes better, even more so the ones I have little experience with. Wonder if anyone could ever undertake such a huge task. Because it would be huge if they did it for all classes.
I second that request for a post on reading logs and interpreting them. I'm probably at the stage where I need to do that to improve my raiding performance.
ReplyDeleteI wish Blizz would simplify the gear choices though. We were sharing out gear last night, and a tier piece dropped. Trying to explain to people that it was a T18 piece and it wouldn't stack with their T17 N or T18 LFR pieces was just so painful.
Of our 14-16 most regular raid members only three people have two or more pieces of the same tier set on their character. That's because we haven't progressed far enough into a tier before the new one comes out and we need to switch to that for gear and quest tokens.
And you drop a 690 item to replace a 685 item, run it through Ask Mr Robot and it's no better because although it has crit it has a bucket load of Versatility on it. Frustrating.
The entry level for getting into raids is always "must have ilvl xyz or higher". Even Blizz do that. So people put on worse gear with higher ilvl to get in. That's not new to this expansion, that's been there since I started in Mists (and I'll bet it was there before too).
As I mentioned in the other reply, there are people much better than I to explain that. I know know how to do some basics and look for things I am specifically looking for.
DeleteI agree that blizzard is part of why we have this problem with there "you need to be this item level to play". Their bad gear design system along with them enforcing item level above all else gives people, at least those that do not reason outside guides, the idea that the higher the item level the better the gear when sometimes that is flat out false.
There are too many different item levels out there right now. They need to simplify gear. As much as people will flame me for saying this, LFR, normal, heroic and mythic should all drop the same item level gear. It would stop the insane stat inflation in its tracks and it would really allow them to design the raid for four different difficulties instead of increasing things each raid. All these different levels, are different numbers, then add warforging and the gradual gear increases with the new raid and you are talking 100s of different possible choices for each gear slot.
That did not make it easier, they made it harder.
So, Tuesday night the Heroic Mastery/Haste neck drops (Heartseeking Skull - ivl 710). All three of us Hunters are MM spec'ed and my offspec is BM so I select offspec (using EPGP for loot). The one Hunter that was consistently beating me (not by a lot but he always managed to hit top Hunter DPS in the end) selected mainspec and it was awarded to him. Now, he had the Heroic Warforged 691 Darklight neck (Crit/Multi) previously. As soon as he started using the Mastery/Haste neck, his DPS dropped - not by a lot... but enough that I am now beating him fairly consistently.
DeleteI am just waiting for him to ask what happened; because I know he will if he doesn't find it on his own.
"I agree that blizzard is part of why we have this problem with there "you need to be this item level to play"."
DeleteHow else would you suggest gating LFR? Remember, it can't be based on skill because LFR.
"That did not make it easier, they made it harder."
Only because you're overcomplicating it. Ignore Warforged/Socketed items -- if they happen, great, if not, oh well.
"I am just waiting for him to ask what happened; because I know he will if he doesn't find it on his own."
I can assure you that he didn't drop 5% or whatever in DPS due to to switching from the 691 to 710 neck.
Hell, he could have flat out removed his 691 necklace and gone necklace-less and not lost 5% DPS.
@Chris
DeleteFrom 691 to 710 is a fair jump, usually in cases like that things equal out thanks to the weight of agility, but when you go from your two best stats to your two worst stats, sometimes it could be worse.
@Balkoth
I wish I had an answer for what else I could suggest. There is no way to judge skill, none at all. At least not an objective one. So we are stuck using item level for queue.
But let me ask you, if you saw me with a 685 item level vs a 703 hunter sign up your your raid, who would you take?
The 703 right?
Now what if I told you I ranked 99% on every fight last tier and the 703 hunter never broke 50%. Who do you think will do more DPS?
That is what I mean. Item level means potential of a class but sometimes not even that. I can get my item level up 13 points with the gear in my bags, but I would do less DPS with that gear on. I'd rather be a lower item level and do my job better than have a higher item level just to appease some imaginary goals that you need to have this item level to do content.
"At least not an objective one."
DeleteWell, Proving Grounds is one. And while not every class will do as well at Endless in the later waves, every class/spec can easily get Silver/Gold.
...but LFR is designed for the people who are so bad they CAN'T get Silver/Gold...
"But let me ask you, if you saw me with a 685 item level vs a 703 hunter sign up your your raid, who would you take?"
If I had absolutely no knowledge of either of you? The 703, yes, because on average a 703 hunter is going to do better than the 685 hunter.
"Who do you think will do more DPS?"
In most cases? The 703 hunter. Unless you're talking percentage of optimal DPS rather than the Warcraft Logs percentile.
Here's the data for 50th percentile of Iron Reaver, for example, for the 703-705 ilvl bracket: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1785&bracket=8&dataset=50&difficulty=4
So 43.4k DPS.
Now let's look at the 99th percentile for the 688-690 ilvl bracket (so I'm actually UPPING you slightly):
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8#boss=1785&bracket=3&dataset=99&difficulty=4
41.1k.
So, on average (meaning looking at everyone's in WarcraftLogs dataset), a 689ish hunter ranking at the 99th percentile will do 5.3% less DPS than a 704ish hunter ranking at the 50th percentile.
Hey, maybe you know something I do not. Because I sure as hell would never tell someone they needed to waste their time in the proving grounds. Not sure why you do, but I am sure you have your reasons for doing weird things just like I do mine.
DeleteSo you are saying I do well above the 703-705 item level for iron reaver with my normal mode tier set being I usually do around 46K-50K at 681 (have not raided it in 2 weeks as I have been tanking and don't count LFR and my last log has me at 48K)
I do play at the 99th percentile. And I do way more than 41.1 in a lesser item level than you are saying. My logs are private however, so they might not count in the averages. But I believe anyone over 680, with the 4 piece set, can do over 40K easily.
I do see what you are saying however. A "bad" 703 player will provably be capable of keeping up with me doing 50% when I am doing 99%.
Seems unfair if you ask me, but I do have to concede that point. Gear means way to much.
However. If I put on my 700 and 706 off spec pieces I can get my item level higher. With that said I will be the first to admit, my DPS would be lower. Tier pieces mean a hell of a lot.
Just for you I am going to (if I do not need to tank) raid with no tier set and see what I do compared to my last logs. I'll let you know. But I am sure I will do less. Hunter tier is amazing even when you are unlucky like me, which goes to show how huge it really is.
"So, on average (meaning looking at everyone's in WarcraftLogs dataset), a 689ish hunter ranking at the 99th percentile will do 5.3% less DPS than a 704ish hunter ranking at the 50th percentile."
This makes me want to cry. It really does. I want the game to go back to rewarding skill, not people who get lucky with gear. That is bad design.
"Because I sure as hell would never tell someone they needed to waste their time in the proving grounds. Not sure why you do"
DeleteBecause if you're trying to check whether people understand concepts like interrupts, debuffs, moving out of bad, when to AoE vs when to single target, focusing down priority adds, burst damage, and more...Proving Grounds: Gold will help with all of that. Have you ever done it?
"So you are saying I do well above the 703-705 item level for iron reaver with my normal mode tier set being I usually do around 46K-50K at 681"
I didn't say anything along those lines, I just presented the aggregate data people have gathered for Heroic Iron Reaver. But if you do, in fact, average 48kish on Heroic Iron Reaver then that would mean that you're performing better than 80% of players who have killed Heroic Iron Reaver and are in the 703-705 ilvl range.
Keep in mind that this is using (currently) 3332 parses that included Marksmanship hunters in the 703-705 ilvl range and 504 parses in the 688-690 ilvl range. So your one (or even several) private parses are not going to change the statistical picture overall.
"Seems unfair if you ask me, but I do have to concede that point. Gear means way to much."
Blizzard uses gear as a nerfing mechanism and in that sense it has to mean a decent amount. With all of the crazy trinkets/set bonuses they like to throw around these days it's harder to make a definite statement, but *usually* going up 13 ilvls is about a 20% increase in damage (that, by the way, is why it used to be 13 ilvls between tiers).
And that's why ilvl is still important -- no matter how good you are, you're not going to outperform someone at 500 ilvl while you're at 450 ilvl unless they're literally asleep or something (as, on average, the 50 ilvls will result in about a 110% DPS boost).
That doesn't mean I agree with what a lot of PUGs (especially these days) do or something -- I had a ridiculous case last tier where I was refused entry into a group because I was 679 on my alt and they wanted 680...even with them knowing I was a 13/13M Mythic raider! 1 or 2 ilvls is pretty insignificant -- but 15? 30? Yeah, that starts to become important. You could do Normal Highmaul in 630 gear. Could you imagine doing it in 600 gear?
"Tier pieces mean a hell of a lot."
For you (and by that I mean "for hunters in that particular tier"), they might. But as Talarian said on my blog, for a lot of classes the 2 and/or 4 set was a pretty minor bonus. Depends on the class and depends on the tier.
"Hunter tier is amazing even when you are unlucky like me, which goes to show how huge it really is."
I'm pretty sure I never said it wasn't. What I'm saying is that some classes were not in your boat. In BRF, for example, the Shadow Priest 4 set was worth about 324 intellect. Or, to put it another way, using a 250 Int Flask and a 50 Augment Rune was 92% as good as my 4 piece. Or, to put it a third way, it was only 50% better than upgrading a 695 tier chest to a 725 tier chest in HFC.
"I want the game to go back to rewarding skill, not people who get lucky with gear."
It does. That's why your guild is struggling in Normal mode while other guilds are progressing through Heroic or Mythic.
I did gold the day the expansion came out still wearing all SoO gear. Not even one piece of gear I got from leveling this expansion. It was not hard, not even close to hard.
DeleteI did gold on my second hunter the day it hit 100 at a 580 item level. In a different spec. Again, it was not hard.
But hunters are by far the easiest class to do it with, so do not read anything into that.
Maybe for me, with my new players, PG might be a good idea. You bring up a good point. Will teach them interrupts and such. But for the people you play with, I am sorry, but it should not be needed for a mythic raider. Gold is a joke even 30 item levels under the lowest it goes down to. Any decent player would have no problem for it. Gold should be needed for heroic maybe, but not mythic.
"you're performing better than 80% of players who have killed Heroic Iron Reaver and are in the 703-705 ilvl range."
Thanks for the ego boost, always nice to get a surprise one of those. And in over 20 item levels less than them too. Let me guess, they ditched the tier set for higher item level gear. :P
For a shadow priest then, if they were stuck in my position with 670 tier it would make sense for them to ditch it for the higher item level. If your tier set sucks there is no reason to hold on to it. It is common sense really.
I am a hunter, this is a hunter blog, I write it from the perspective of a hunter, and whenever I talk about it from the perspective of another class I mention it. So my advice was coming from a hunter, about hunter gearing. I even mentioned the power of the hunter tier set as why you would hold on to it longer.
Quite honestly, anyone that would be reading it and actually concerned about the smaller numbers, is probably also the same person that would be smart enough to see "well my tier set sucks so this does not mean anything"
You do make me laugh a lot with the bringing up mythic every chance you get. You do understand that doesn't mean anything to me.
You can not judge a player by the group they are in. Just because the new players in my group are struggling and I choose to continue to help them does not mean that all the players in my group are bad.
I do not automatically think you are good because you are in "mythic gear". Just like you should not think I am bad because I am in "normal gear".
As one hunter I was in a pug with a few months back that was in all mythic gear said to me after it was over, "I may have beat you in DPS, but you are one hell of a player, maybe you can give me some tips, I was really trying and I can't match your numbers".
I was performing at 99% for my item level, him, with his full 13/13 mythic clears, was at 83%.
See, 13/13 mythic and he knew that me, at 12/13 heroic, was actually a more skilled player. He came to me for advice. Progress says nothing about individual skill. Never has, never will.
You do not need to be a great player to do mythic. Just need to find 19 others that are decent and willing to put in the time.
Do not judge a book by its cover.
"It was not hard, not even close to hard."
DeleteWhen did I say it was? I mean, see following Twitter conversation:
http://tinyurl.com/p9j297q
What you are forgetting, though, is that you are a person who knows Calculus trying to tell people that Trigonometry isn't hard. Yeah, you're right on an absolute level, but if you're a middle school or high school student then guess what, Trig is pretty hard.
Likewise, Gold is trivial for you and me, but what about your friend dropping Doom in melee? You should have seen how many threads there were on the Dungeons and Raids forum where people were complaining that *Silver* was too hard and shouldn't be required for Heroic Dungeons.
"But for the people you play with, I am sorry, but it should not be needed for a mythic raider."
When did I say it was? We're talking about people struggling to get a handle on Normal raid difficulty.
"Let me guess, they ditched the tier set for higher item level gear."
I have no idea. It's possible that they're using four 700 ilvl pieces in those slots I suppose and that would bump up their overall ilvl by 8 (four slots with 30 ilvl upgrade each).
"It is common sense really."
So it not dropping Doom in melee. Again, we are talking about people struggling to grasp Normal mode mechanics. Or people who refuse 30+ ilvl upgrades solely because it has versatility or something.
"You do make me laugh a lot with the bringing up mythic every chance you get. You do understand that doesn't mean anything to me."
How exactly do you want it to reward skill, then? Because right now having more skill means you can do Heroic and having even more skill beyond that means you can do Mythic. And by successfully completing those challenges you get better rewards.
I mean, isn't the main alternative to make the skill required for the three difficulties the same and have it be purely about needing more gear to beat the DPS/HPS checks? That seems like it would be the *last* thing you want.
So if you don't care about doing Mythic difficulty, fine, but in lieu of that what exactly do you think it should reward you with for skill and how should it determine that?
"I do not automatically think you are good because you are in "mythic gear". Just like you should not think I am bad because I am in "normal gear"."
DeleteDid I ever, once, say I thought you were bad?
That said, unless someone literally buys Mythic carries for gold then if they have Mythic gear they are, on average, significantly better than a Normal raider. But that doesn't mean there aren't amazingly skilled Normal raiders either -- but you yourself have *repeatedly* remarked on how you're performing in the 99th percentile for your gear level. Over 99% of Normal mode raiders are worse than you. Keep that in mind.
"I was performing at 99% for my item level, him, with his full 13/13 mythic clears, was at 83%."
I think you're confused about at least two things here.
1, a few months ago I don't see how 13/13M could have been possible. You'd be 7/7M in Highmaul, 10/10M in BRF, or even 17/17M for the tier. How do you get 13?
2, the fact that you're performing at 99% is bolstered by the fact you have those four tier pieces which is lowering your actual ilvl. In reality your ilvl is closer to 8+ above what your sheet says due to that tier bonuses (since apparently it's worth keeping 4 670 pieces over using 4 700 pieces).
It's possible that even if you had a more accurate ilvl score that you'd still perform in the 99th percentile, but that is something to keep in mind.
"You do not need to be a great player to do mythic."
Yes, you do (at least if we're assuming Mythic clears and not the first few bosses or something). Flat out, end of story.
You don't have to be a "world class" or "completely exceptional" player, though. But anyone capable of clearing Mythic (without being carried via gold or whatever) is automatically going to be in the top 3% of players, probably top 1-2%.
If you want to claim that being in the top 3% of players doesn't make a player great then you're using a very weird definition for great.
You convinced me to make a layman post on how to evaluate gear. It might go over better and should satisfy you while teaching others, at any level, something.
DeleteI will say here however, when tier is involved, you have to throw away stat weights as the judge. If your tier bonus is good, having less stats on the gear might not matter. Leave tier sets to the experts to decide on when it is worth ditching them. They are not as simple as adding some stats together to see which piece is best.
I get what you mean on gold now. I thought you asked it of your raiders, which I did not think was necessary. If you use it for pugs it makes more sense.
Honestly I never even attempted gold on any of my characters except my hunters. My hunters I did it on because me hunters are my mains. I would not even bother with my other DPS. Heck, even my tanks, warrior, paladin, DK, druid, all did the silver DPS challenge in tank spec because I do not DPS on any of them.
I know a lot of people had a problem with silver. Locks seem to have gotten the short end from what I read. The only class I failed on my first attempt with is my priest, but I am a healer. Once I changed my talents for AoE, which I did not have, I did it on the second try. I don't play shadow. Never have really, never will. Priests heal in my world.
If it can tank, it tanks, if it can heal it heals. That is my motto, meaning the only classes I DPS on are pure classes.
People move up to a harder level, heroic then mythic, when they can handle it. But you also get more gear. So that equals it out. The true "difficulty" of harder modes is mechanics.
That is why I am having trouble with my group, they are newer and do not know the mechanics and it is taking them a lot longer to learn it than I would like it too. Skill of class wise? They could do mythic. Now if only they could master skill of movement.
I made a post today that mentioned why people like you or I have no problem with things like moving for doom. It was not the focus of the post, but it is true. To you or I it is nothing special, it is something we have been doing for years. It is not new.
Sometimes it is easy for us to forget that these things are hard for new people because we think it is so easy. Every time someone fails at something I have to remind myself "they will learn".
Harder difficulties are all about handling mechanics. To anyone with a massive amount of experience it is not hard. To anyone with lesser skill, lesser reaction speed, or a lesser connection, it is problematic. But it is not "hard".
I never said I do not want to do mythic. I would love to do mythic. I would love to retire from teaching. I like being in a casual guild and we have managed to do just fine for many years. But too many old people leave and new people came and it feels like I am starting over teaching all new people. I would love to just sit back and let someone else do the work, let someone else explain, let someone else talk to the players messing up and let someone else try to help them. I would love to sit back and just kill bosses and (not) get loot.
I am actually thinking of quitting the game and sadly it is because of my raiding situation. I do not want to leave the guild because it would fall apart if I were not there. I feel as if I would be hurting them and I don't want to do that.
I can make them better, in time, but I do not feel like starting over. It can happen, I am sure of it. But it is a long term investment.
So I thought about lending my hunter out as a hired gun but looking around there are no guilds doing mythic on my server. So there goes that idea and I do not want to server transfer because I do not know how I would meld with other people and I have so many characters I would want to transfer so it is not worth it to do so.
Being raiding is what I, used to, enjoy the most in the game and I can no longer do it at the level I want to, I am really debating saying good bye to the game. I lost the one thing I liked doing.
I might not pay for a carry, but I would be willing to pay my way on to a team. lol Heck, I would pay people to server transfer to my server if it meant I got better players. I would pay someone else to assemble the team for me so I don't have to any more. None of that is carry, it is just me being lazy. So paying does not equal carry. Sadly I have not found anyone that is willing to be the assembler for me. lol
Delete13/13 was a brain fart, he was 10/10 BRF mythic. It was a heroic BRF run.
I see what you mean about the numbers but you are forgetting something. If anything at a lower item level it would be harder to get a high ranking, not easier.
You would have a much larger sampling of players. You would have all the "better" players that did it before you when they were in that item level range. You would have all the people that farmed at that item level and let people hog the meters at that item level. If anything ranking high at a lower item level, without hogging the meters, is harder.
Add to the fact that with a lesser group bosses last longer and burst DPS is shorter meaning lower numbers over all for me.
So looking at the big picture of more competition, people that played just for rank, longer fights meaning less burst up time, and ranking in a lower bracket is actually harder, not easier.
As for claiming being in the top 3% doesn't make someone great, it doesn't. You are only as good as the people around you. If your group is great, you can be great. But being it is a group effort, how do you know if it is you that is great?
My numbers are always better when I am in a good group than when I am in a poor group. Does that mean I bounce back and forth between being good and being bad? No. I am the same player, how I do is based on the group I am in.
It is the same as saying because I am in a group wiping in normal means I am bad. No, it is a group thing. You can never judge a person's game play ability by who they play with. I am sure there are people that do not even raid that could run circles around either of us. Does it mean they are "bad" because they do not raid?
And you can also never judge people based on numbers. We used to cycle who got adds on beastlord for fun. Does that mean because player X never got his chance to do 70K and rank on that fight means he sucks? Does that mean that player Y who was ranked #3 on the logs is great? No and no.
A great player is a great player no matter their surroundings. Not because of their surroundings.
You can say many things about people based on what is around them. Like I did 99% in my level range, and you average being the #3 shadow priest on all fights. But none of that makes either of us "great".
I've known bad players, really bad players, clear heroic (back in wrath and cataclysm) in top 100 guilds that I would not even consider bringing along on my normals. I am not kidding. You do not need to be "great" to be in a mythic raid team. You just need to be better than most, and that is not really hard in this game. That is why saying "I raid mythic" does not automatically get anyone instant access to the "they must be good" category. It means nothing except you have a good team to run with.
The only way to really judge if someone is a great player is by playing with them. You can not judge a person by the raid content they are doing, you can not judge a person by their log ranks and as the lost says, you can not judge a player by their item level. Playing with someone is the only way to "earn" the status of being a great player.
I'm going to have to disagree about how much of a difference "optimal" gear makes: http://balkothsword.blogspot.com/2015/07/your-stat-weights-dont-matter.html
ReplyDeleteYou agreed with my point and then say you have to disagree? I don't get it.
DeleteOh, you made up some fictional story in your head about two posts that had nothing to do with each other being connected. Now I get it.
Please do not do that. Each post is its own post. This is a blog, not a novel, everything is an individual post, not continuing chapters.
Your post is full of assumptions and misconceptions about how the two posts might be connected when they were not.
The two posts have nothing to do with each other thank you very much. But you did end your post by saying I was right, gear matters, so thank you for that to.
Looks like you are having a really bad day.
1) You connect two posts that obviously have nothing to do with each other somehow.
2) You say you disagree with me then you prove I am right in your own post.
All I can say is TGIF, you can use a day off.
I've had days like that too, where nothing you do goes right. It gets better. Trust me.
"Oh, you made up some fictional story in your head about two posts that had nothing to do with each other being connected."
DeleteNo, Grumpy, I never once said they were connected. All I said was that we could use the information you provided in a completely unrelated post to figure out if the worrying about gear optimization was important/relevant for many (struggling) Normal mode raiders.
How much time have you spent trying to calculate stat weights/tier bonuses/etc? Now how much time have your raiders spent? Do you think they'd be better off if they had spent that time on worrying about playing better rather than gear calculations?
*You* might be to the point where the gear optimization matters. But they sure aren't. For them, simply picking the highest ilvl and not worrying about gear beyond that would make an insignificant difference right now.
Why would gear optimization matter to people that have not even learned mechanics yet?
DeleteThat is what I am talking about. You made it about should gear itemization matter to them. Of course not, they need to learn to move from the bad before maximizing gear becomes a thought.
You knew that. You know I was not talking about them. You just made it like I was talking about them to make it seem like I am misleading them. Basically it means you are either 1) an idiot and did not understand the two were not connected or 2) an asshat looking to start a fight.
I'm going with 2, you do not seem like an idiot, but you most definitely are an asshat making up stuff just to start an argument.
I spend way to much time working on stats. I do it at work, it entertains me to do so. Many of my raiders, probably none. Most of them are not that type of player. At least not in this stage of their raiding career. I do not even talk stat weights with most of them as they need to learn the basics before they work on perfecting their craft.
I do however have two druids, among some others, that could probably show any druids a thing or two, these people are golden and can talk stats and numbers and weights and theory for hours on end. We had a great conversation about gaming the legendary rings on some fights, something i am sure most mythic guilds already figured out how to do but are keeping secret, just like I will. I enjoy talking to them a slight bit more than some of the others. lol
But you say I should not teach the others about gear right? So you want me to tell them it is fine for the rogue to get the cloak with bonus armor. And it is okay for the lock to roll on that spirit neck because it is an upgrade item level wise.
No, absolutely not. There are levels of knowledge and I teach them what they need to know. As someone moves up and starts learning on their own, I up the game some. Gems come out of nowhere sometimes, I've seen it. Today''s rogue that wants the bonus armor back is tomorrows 99%er.
BTW the reason I have not replied to your posts in the other thread is because I can not load it at work and I rarely am on at home. No time with real life and game time to spend here.
DeleteYou used a word in one of your replies that seems to be blocked by my filter at work so I can no longer load them. :(
"You used a word in one of your replies that seems to be blocked by my filter at work so I can no longer load them. :("
DeleteAny idea which word? I'll try to avoid it in the future.
"You just made it like I was talking about them to make it seem like I am misleading them"
Grumpy, *no one* but you has thought that. In fact, I have absolutely no idea how much time you've spent talking to them about gear OR mechanics. For all I know you've never mentioned gear to them and always tried to harp on mechanics, mechanics, mechanics.
My entire post was aimed at people like this guy: http://balkothsword.blogspot.com/2015/07/your-stat-weights-dont-matter.html?showComment=1437123077084#c6300206630411078
Because, disregarding your guild completely, there are literally *millions* of players who see stuff like AskMrRobot or stat priorities in guides or whatever and think that they are far more important than they are.
People like, well, Chris D. Mitchell: http://thegrumpyelf.blogspot.com/2015/07/dont-judge-character-by-their-item-level.html?showComment=1437079155326#c8565958997460997622
I've seen people pass on 30 item level upgrades with no set bonuses involved because "it has versatility."
And that's the difference between you and those millions of people -- you say "Well, it has X agility and Y mastery which translates into Z agility overall. My old piece has N agility and O haste which translates into P agility overall. Z > P, therefore it's an upgrade despite inferior stats." Or the reverse if the raw agility upgrade and secondary stat increase doesn't outweigh the worse secondary stats.
*They* say "the new item has mastery, and mastery is worse than haste for me, so I'll stick with my old item which is better."
"So you want me to tell them it is fine for the rogue to get the cloak with bonus armor. And it is okay for the lock to roll on that spirit neck because it is an upgrade item level wise."
No. Let's not build straw men here.
The word often used for the opposite of casual raider is a h...c... raider. Apparently that is blocked, for some odd reason.
DeleteI wrote a post about diablo doing the HC campaigns where if you die you are dead, so you can not die and locked my self out of my blog until I could post enough to push that off the front page. lol Opps.
Later I figured out what word it was and try to not use it any longer.
I see what you are getting at. I have the ask mr robot issue with players from new to experienced as well. Just the line "never use mr robot to judge trinkets" I must have said 1000 times if not more.
It is a fantastic tool, when used in the right hands. Same with something like recount. Sometimes some of these new players look at recount and immediately say, we should kick so and so, he is only doing 20K. I look at the big picture, see he is doing 98% of his potential and say, nope, as long as we are not hitting any DPS walls I want to get this person some gear, they are staying.
Every tool in the game can be misused in the wrong hands.
Heck, I've even misused them from time to time and I fancy myself as the type that usually knows right from wrong in situations like that. When recount started adding absorbs into healing I did not notice and thought I was getting better at my priest because my numbers went way up. I had always added my absorbs to my healing done. Didn't need to do that any more after they made the change. Took me a good two months before I realized my error.
That's hilarious about the word being blocked.
Delete"Sometimes some of these new players look at recount and immediately say, we should kick so and so, he is only doing 20K."
In all fairness, 20k was doable at like...610-615 ilvl. But maybe you mean Heroic Dungeons rather than current raids (or maybe the 20k wasn't literal).
I do know what you mean in general, though.
The problem is that the people who aren't good enough to use Recount wisely are the same people who can't use things like Mr. Robot or stat weights wisely and are the same people who can't use ilvl wisely. It's a bad package overall.
But if they put forth the effort to indicate they want to try to learn, we as teachers need to make sure we don't completely overload/overwhelm them with stuff that's very minor in the overall picture.
Which is where my "1% better is 1% better, but that 1% doesn't matter in practice" is coming from -- if you're wiping in Normal mode then 99%+ of the time it isn't because everyone doing 1% more DPS or even 5% more DPS would have saved you.
Nope, I mean current raid. Also at a 630 item level 2/3rd of specs can max out over 20K. Not all. So no, at 610 the only people that will break 20K are people that are exceptionally good and have high burst on a short length fight. So you are wrong there.
DeleteAnd you surely do not pug half as much as you say you do if you think "people can do 20K at 610-615". Most pug people can not do 20K at 670.
Did one boss the other night as a tank for a pug with a few guild mates in it because they asked if I could help. Was a 690 requirement, I was the lowest geared there at 695.
Guild mage: 67K, pug hunter: 54K, guild hunter: 53K, Guild warrior: 53K, pug tank 28K, then a few more pugs in the 27K to 18K range, my tank: 18K, everyone else was lower.
"Can" people do more? Yes. Do they? Nope, 90% of the player base can not break 30K at a 690 item level.
So no, me or you would easily pull those numbers because we are decent players. But 90% of the player base would not. You have to remove yourself from the equation when estimating what people "should" be doing. You are not the average player.
Heck, you play a shadow priest right? I have never seen a shadow priest do over 30K all expansion. Maybe on some trash packs with AoE, but most definitely never on any boss fight. So you most definitely can not say that your numbers are representative of what shadow priests, on the whole, are doing. "Top" shadow priest sure, but not over 90% of the players of shadow priests. The majority of shadow priests can not even pull 30K in 710 gear.
To the 1% thing.
1% better is still 1% better. Even if someone is only doing 10% of their potential, if they get a 1% upgrade they will do 1% better. That is how math works.
Now, if you consider it worth it or not is another story completely. But it is still better, worth it or not. Better is better, let it go.
can we build [wait for it] "straw women"? There, ya'll can now go back to whatever ya'll were doing....
DeleteNot exactly sure they would be any fun. But we can try. I'll go get some straw and you work on some blueprints so we can build it.
Delete