Monday, May 20, 2013

Monday Random Thoughts

- Lots of LFR random thoughts again being I did it a few times this weekend.  Something I had not done in a few weeks.

- One of those thoughts is that I would have done it a lot more if it were not for the fact I ran into a 2 hour queue once and over an hour queue multiple times.

- Not so long ago it was fun to see tanks waiting longer than DPS.

- Now, we are back to the bad old days of waiting for tanks.

- No one wants to tank them.

- Can't blame them, neither do I.

- Good thing the three current characters I like to tank with can get away with DPS gear.

- Two actually use DPS gear, the monk and the druid.

- And the death knight can tank in DPS gear.

- At least the content the DK does, LFR only.

- Don't think my DK has ever stepped into a real raid when it was current content.

- Speaking of monk tanking, I just started to read up a lot on it.

- I had tons of extra time while waiting this weekend.

- Have to love that the gear is the exact same as the DPS version.

- A few reforges aside and I can tank and DPS in the same gear.

- Oh, that monk that hit 90 last sunday is sitting pretty with a 490 item level this sunday.

- From ding to 490 in a week.

- Could have been faster but I only did a few LFRs each day with it.

- Do not take the fact that I went from 90 to a 490 item level in basically one run through the LFRs to mean it is easy.

- It took my rogue months and his luck still has him sitting at just a 500 item level.

- My death knight has been doing them for months as well since they increased the drop rates in the old LFRs and is still sitting at 472.

- How is it possible that you can run 16 boss and use 16 coins and win nothing every week?

- I will tell you how it is possible, because my monk and people like it really screw up the law of averages.

- So my monks journey began like all do, in the MV LFRs.

- 6 bosses, 6 coins.  Won something on 5 out of the 6 bosses, bonus rolls won 1 thing.

- HoF, 6 bosses, 6 coins.  Won something 4 out of 6 bosses, coins won 4 out of 6 used.

- Terrace, 4 bosses, 4 coins.  Won 2 pieces on coins, nothing from drops.

- Hey, luck can't last forever.  But I was one item level away from the LFR so guess what a person that is dedicated to get it done does?

- Yeap, you got it, I ran terrace again because it has drops for 2 of my weakest spots.

- I won the weapon, it was all I won from my 4 coins but it was all I needed, and was a nice and tight 480 item level thank you very much.

- Won nothing off sha, nothing off galleon, nothing off Oon, nothing of Nalak.

- Guess my monks luck does not leave the LFR, but can it follow me into the ToT LFRs?

- First leg of ToT, 3 bosses, 2 drops, 1 coin used 1 drop.  3 pieces total.

- Second leg of ToT, 3 bosses, 2 drops, no coins used.

- Third leg of ToT, 3 bosses, 2 drops, 1 coin used 1 drop.  3 pieces total.

- Last leg of ToT, 3 bosses, 1 drop, guess my luck ran out, but there is no reason to complain.

- No trinkets, weapons or tier and a few were for the same slot, but when all was said and done I had a 490 item level.

- And still have not purchased even one piece of valor gear.

- How could I get any valor gear, I just hit 90, but this week I can get me a 522 and see if my luck continues.

- 9 ToT drops in one week, 2 coins and 2 wins from coins, the odds are insane, this is why other characters can go months without getting anything.

- They need to get nothing to even out the averages to be lower.

- 9 Drops in one week.  My priest and shaman combined, that have been running them since they came out and do not have 9 drops combined between them.

- My hunter does not have 9 drops either and I have run every week, all of them, and used coins.

- My rogue, which until my monk went in, was my ToT lucky character getting at least 1 piece a week, still has not gotten a total of 9 pieces like my monk has.

- I always say I have bad luck.  I also always say there is such a thing as a lucky character.

- My monk seems to be my lucky character this expansion.

- At least after one week.

- Now to learn how to play it better.

- I can currently pull around 50-55K in movement fights and 60-65K when I get to stand still for the most part.

- Not exactly good.  Sure, it is good enough for the LFR, but not what I expect from myself.

- At a 490 item level I should be in the 70K range while in movement fights and 80K range when standing still.

- At least that is my aim.  I really could not find anything about what to expect from monks so I really do not know what to aim for.

- All I know is I can be doing better.

- But for having only played it for a week, I am not doing so bad.

- I want to get as good as this one rogue I saw in the LFR doing 200K+.

- Not burst, over the course of the entire fight, on all bosses.

- I guess heroic gear really does make a difference.

- I was on my rogue in the group with him and I was finishing consistently second.

- One fight I did 118K and was so happy with myself until I saw he did 237K doubling my damage done.

- Well, I thought I was doing good.  Until I saw him.

- Am I really that bad at my rogue or is the difference between a 495 item level and a 530 item level really that HUGE in what you can do?

- I thought 118K on a non damage boosting fight was fantastic and it was my best performance ever.

- The guy made me feel horrible, like I really suck.

- Then again, I can suck it up, I do kind of suck on my rogue.

- But I am oddly enough getting much better with it.

- Recently I have noticed more and more I like the agility based classes more than intellect or strength based ones.

- I wonder why that is?

- Monk tanking looks involved, but not too complex really.

- I can see how they are the new DKs however.

- Meaning that there is no in between for them.

- They are either good or bad.

- It is like having to follow three rotations at the same time, and manage your cooldowns.

- Good thing they only have one cooldown or it would get really confusing.

- But their defensive rotation could be called a cooldown of sorts, a consistent one.

- And that is where the good from the bad can be found.

- I kind of like the dropping damage part with stagger.

- But the key will be to manage buffs and clearing stagger damage.

- Kind of nice that the damage part of it closely resembles the DPS rotation.

- One less thing to learn.

- I have a topic for my next post in mind that came to mind after doing the LFR a lot lately in melee range.

- Something I had never really done much before, but with my rogue and monk both running them all this week and my druid and DK getting their turns in a little less recently but still in melee, it has be thinking about melee a lot.

- Not doing it, but doing it in relation to the people tanking.

- LFR tanks SUCK!

- And I mean that in every way possible.

- They suck because I wait 2 hours in queue for two of them just so they can both drop as soon as I zone in.

- They suck because they have no clue that if you tank mr nasty pants in the bad your little melee buddies become spectators.

- They suck because when they need to move a boss they move them as if they are trying to win the indy 500 and it makes it impossible to keep up.

- They suck because when tank switching they spin the boss around like crazy.

- They suck because they like to dance all over the place when there is no reason too.

- They suck because they seem to want to take the mobs back away from you at every chance they get.

- They suck because they do not realize that there is more to being a tank then just getting your face smashed in.

- Positioning people.  Positioning.

- Back to that wait in queue for 2 hours thing, yes I did.

- Got in, both tanks dropped.

- 15 minutes later, we get one tank.

- Clear trash, tank leaves.

- Excuse me?

- 30 minutes later, 2 tanks, kill boss one shot, one tank drops.

- We do trash to second boss, sit and wait another 20 minutes.

- Tank comes in, tank drops out.  Tank comes in, tank drops out.  Tank comes in, tank drops out.

- This goes on and on for 6 tanks coming and going before we finally get one to stay and one shot the boss.

- This was the last ToT, we just one shot 2 bosses, it is not a bad group, why are tanking not willing to stay.

- Lets face it, see above, they are most likely horrible tanks, but we still need them.

- Clear trash to the last boss.

- Waiting another 30 minutes now, a tank comes in, talks to the tank for a few seconds, drops group.

- The tank that had been there for the first two bosses says, he is sorry but he doesn't have any more time, it has been an hour and a half in here already and leaves.  So we need two tanks now.

- Yeap, an hour and a half in there and I waited 2 hours to get into it.  I am not leaving.  No F'N way.

- I tab out and read up more on monk tanking.

- Might as well put my down time to good use right?

- Another 30 minutes pass and we get two tanks.

- Woohoo, we buff everyone up, drop food, I go over the assignments, 1 red, 2 blue, 3 green, 4 purple, that should be standard by now right?

- We run a ready check, everyone is ready.  Except the tanks.

- Both drop group.

- Holy F'N shit.

- The group starts to fall apart.

- On the last boss, in a run we have never wiped in.

- Come on people stay.

- Been over 2 hours in here, people just do not have that type of time.

- Down to 18, down to no healers, down to 12, down to 10, 8, 7, 6, 5.

- Me and two people sit there, the other two of our 5 man DPS crew port out to do some pet battles and farming or whatever they want to do.

- I get more monk reading in.

- We finally get the group filled some time later.  I've lost track of time.  I started this adventure shortly after 10 AM and it is 3 PM now.

- I drop food, I call for buffs, I give assignments, 1 red, 2 blue, 3 green, 4 purple, and run a ready check.

- I point to the boss and yell charge.

- There was a lot of talk in raid before we started, saying we are going to wipe and will need a few stacks, and they have never seen this go well, even more so after this much of a wait.

- I just said, remember 1 red, 2 blue, 3 green, 4 purple and it is a nice and easy fight.

- People listened to me, people remembered, we one shot it.

- The raid burst out with WTF, impossible, etc.

- No one there has ever seen it one shot before.

- I did not win any loot but I did not care, I was done.

- And so was my desire to run the LFR again for a while.

- There is no reason that a run that there were no wipes on should ever take 5 F'N hours.

- This is the LFR, this is not raiding.

- The LFR should not take over 40 minutes, wait time included.  Ever.

- They need to find a way to fix this before they lose another 1.3 million players.

- I know a possible way to fix it.

- It is short and sweet, so hear me out please.

- You can do the LFR with 10 of the 17 damage dealers being capable.

- You can do the LFR with 4 of the 6 healers being capable.

- Why do both tanks not only need to be capable but at least decent to get it done?

- Make it so all fights can be one tanked.

- Might get more tanks willing to sign up that way.

- I know that is part of the reason I do not tank it.

- You can not ease through there as a tank.

- And no matter how good of a tank you might be if the other tank sucks they make you look bad too.

- You could have all 6 healers be half wits, all 17 damage dealers be half wits, and still get it done as long as all the half wits actually play and don't AFK.

- But if you have even one tank that is a half wit, it is wipe city.

- Make all LFR fights for 1 tank.

- Then I would queue as a tank.

- I would not have to worry about communicating when you taunt and then ending up dying because the other tank doesn't quite grasp taunt when I have the debuff and then I get yelled at because I am bad because I died.

- People are stupid.  They always blame the tank that died.  They never realize that the reason the tank died is because the other tank was not doing their job.

- It is easier to blame the tank for being a bad tank.

- It is easier to blame the healers for being bad healers.

- God forbid people actually blame the tank that was supposed to taunt but didn't.

- Like I said, people are stupid and it seems even more so in the LFR.

- If you want to blame a tank, blame the one that did not taunt when he was supposed to.

- As a tank there is absolutely no room for error.

- We all bitch about 30K DPS damage dealers, but the boss still goes down unless everyone is that bad.  You can carry slackers in the damage dealer department.

- We all bitch about the healers that DPS, but the boss still goes down as long as the other healers are not completely inept and can cover for it..

- Why is there no safety net for tanks?

- I might not be able to answer why there is no safety net for them but I can answer why I do not tank.

- I do not tank because I will only do it when I have another tank to queue with so I know I have someone capable of communicating.

- I do not tank because the other tank can easily screw things up by not knowing what to do.

- Tanks, even in the LFR, do not have the luxury that damage dealers and healers do.

- Tanks need to know the fights.

- Remove that need to know for tanks, make them one tank fights, and let the tanks get the easy route the damage dealers and healers can have sometimes and you will see more tanks.

- Maybe.

- Or maybe when the new patch comes out tomorrow you will see even less.

- Could go either way.

- People might tank to get DPS or healing gear.

- But people like me now have less reason to tank.

- If my warrior or paladin want tank gear I had no choice but to tank.

- Now I can DPS and win tank gear.

- Yeah, absolutely, I will never tank now, thank you blizzard.

- Fix the problem with fights needing 2 tanks and I might tank.

- But give me the option to get tank gear without tanking and I will always take it.

- Will this be a good change or a bad one?

- Will it help me not have a 5 hour adventure again?

- Either way, if the LFR system is going to keep being this bad, either with wait times, community, or bad groups, then it just need to be removed until they can find a better way to do it.

- I still say, make 10 man LFRs, please, I will pay you blizzard.

- Actually, I already pay you, so if you want me to keep paying, make 10 man LFRs.

- Have a great day all.


  1. heheheh... so what you are saying is "Tanks for all the memories"

    LOL, sorry, could not resist.

    stay frosty...

    1. I'd have to day "no tanks" to that.

  2. My hubby and I always queue together as tanks. We're well geared, and maybe because we're both tanks and raid leaders in our 10 man, we like to think about how to help the group maximize it's potential [ie, moving Jinrokh to the puddle and such as that].

    We led 2 groups to Lei Shen one shots this past week by assigning colors and taking out the dispersion and adds platforms [despite them being opposite and having a couple people slam us for overloading opposite platforms... hey we one shot it - twice!]

    We even have a set of alts of the same classes and specs that we run in ToT when we take the notion.

    And yet, despite being good at what we do, we get harrassed and harangued because it's apparently "fun" to do that to tanks in LFR. We had a druid [via symbiosis] using life grip to pull us to the edge of the windy platforms so we'd get blown off. And the entire rest of the raid thought they were justified in that griefing because we are tanks... we have an insta-queue, so we deserve to be griefed.

    Well, they didn't think it so highly that when we sat our butts down and told them to either kick the person responsible or to please kick both tanks, that they didn't kick the person responsible.

    We were life gripped the entire rest of the raid, but not to our deaths. I mean getting lifegripped the split second after I pull Horridon only killed a couple melee...

    I enjoy the insta-queue as a main spec tank. I don't always enjoy tanking and leading the LFRs.

    But yeah, not sure the ability to gear an off spec will help things. Not sure it will hurt either. I'll be happy to heal on my shaman alt now so I can gear her enhancement set [and both sets are adequate].

    I've enjoyed monk tanking a bit, but not as much as monk dps. Though I monk tanked for a normal raid in MSV the other week and did fine... a little squishier but mostly because not everything is in muscle memory yet like on my dk.

    I can see where it would be good for people for LFR fights to be one tankable... it's impossible on my dps alts to get tanks to stay for Sheek'zeer for some reason... but on the other hand, I enjoy tanking with my hubby, even in LFR... it makes it actually enjoyable.

    And speaking of blaming the tank who died... they kept blaming a tank who got MC'd on Sheekzeer rather than the tank who wouldn't taunt off them in time... took three wipes for them to listen to reason... although in that case they were putting more blame on the "fail healers" who were doing just fine.

    Of course for some reason the healers then refused to dispel me or the other guy who defended them... and said so quite bluntly... why I'm not sure.

    I just know after a ToES misadventure on a monday I don't do LFR on Mondays anymore.

    I enjoy reading random thoughts.

    1. Glad you enjoy mt babbling on mondays. Also it is nice to hear that I am not the only one out there who understands why people do not tank the LFR. Now if only we can get blizzard to understand it and do something that might help making tanking the LFR more attractive.

      I am not talking a baggie. I think one tank fights would help a little. But the idea of what you said, people love to screw with tanks, is a huge part of the reason and there is very little that can be done there.

      People pulling for you, people blaming you for what someone else does. Even if aggro is not really an issue any more it is possible to lose aggro and it is always the tanks fault. I wonder when these people started playing because when I started playing if I pulled aggro it was not the tanks fault, it was my fault. The job of the damage dealer is to do as much damage within the tanks ability. To hit the right targets. To not get aggro. Sure, as a tank it is my job to keep it as best I can but while I can only do so much the damage dealers can control themselves. So aggro is on them, not me as a tank.

      So much crap for no reason in the LFR and this tank issue is just one tiny piece of a much bigger puzzle.

      I wish I had another tank to queue up with like you do. Sadly I have to wait for real raid drops to get my tanks up there and being we are not killing too many bosses each week, I am not exactly gearing up fast or anything.

      Oh well, nothing we can do for most of it. It is all on blizzard now.

      Can't wait to see what off spec gearing is going t do. I think it will actually get us many really bad tanks because they will sign up for tanks for the instant queue while trying to get their DPS gear.

      Sad part is, like I said, unlike the other roles, you can not hide in the LFR as a tank. It might just make things worse.

  3. -Saturday was Valor day. I earned 890 vp in one day. Hadn't done that since Cata.

    -Scenario, Heroic, 4 LFRs (no loot btw), IoT and Tiller dailies, and a bunch of IoT elites = 890 vp

    -I've never one shot Lei Shen and I always end up zoning in at Lei Shen... I need loot off Iron Qon not Lei Shen, damnit!

    -Queues were 35-50 minutes as dps on Saturday. Longest I've seen so far was just over an hour I think.

    -The Scenario was crazy. I think it took all of 6 minutes to complete. Had a Blood DK in there who just pulled everything and we mowed it down. Couldn't really see my real-time dps but I did see some numbers in the 250-500K range doing AoE as BM. :D

    -Been soloing BT lately. Rep in there is great. I've run it 4 times and I just need to run it 1.5 more times to get exalted.

    -I have more netherweave cloth than I can possibly do anything with though...

    -MC rep is horrible. I've run it way too many times already and I still need to run it 11 more to get exalted. Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum...

    -No raid this weekend. Was busy on Friday and it got canceled on Saturday (probably because no one showed on Friday...).

    -I'm up to 2995/3000 vp and 3976/4000 jp in prep for the patch. Looked at which upgrades were the biggest bang for the buck; weapon and trinkets as usual. I'll upgrade a bunch of heirlooms from 80 to 85 as well for my mage.

    -Need to level my DK this patch. Bought another 415 for him. He's ilvl 407 now. Should allow him to faceroll through quests (yes, I should lvl him in dungeons but I'm just not a tank; especially after hearing you guys talk about all the bitching from other players). Need to relearn how to play it though...

    -I wish Blood DPS still existed. I liked that play style.

    -Might turn my mage into a pet battler. Covering all the achievs and getting some xp seems like a win-win.

    -Need more space in my guild bank to clean out some mail that I have bouncing around. Could buy another tab or take over one of two tabs I gave to the guild members. Only 12 members remaining and I think all the items were put there by me anyway... Probably just take Tab 2 for personal use. No idea why there are still a few stragglers in that guild...

    -New Brawlers stuff coming out... never finished the original fights. Only got to Rank 7. Things started getting hard then and I lost patience.

    -Ah, too much to do, too little time...

    1. I still blood DPS, it just is not welcomed in random content. But blood is my favorite of the three, always has been. I did like the days of having a blood tanking and a blood DPS spec. Not exactly sure why they did not like that versatility but I am sure they have their reasons. Most likely a balance thing.

      Still never stepped into the brawlers guild. Got my pass ASAP and lost interest because of the 3 hour wait to play and never went back even if I do know it is much better now.

      I've actually had a few times where I got over 800 on tuesday. It is a lot easier when no one is killing the rares on the island. Make my rounds and kill them all. Do one quest hub. Make my rounds and kill them. Do one quest hub. Etc. By the time I am done I have over 500, sometimes 600 valor. The I do my daily dungeon for 80 and LFR for 90 and can sometimes get in 2 LFRs. I've done as much as 935 valor on a tuesday but that was when I got in a champions of the thunder king group as well.

  4. Yep, I'm with you 100%, the 5.3 change to spec gearing could absolutely go either way in terms of queue time.

    I think tanks who want tank gear but don't really want to tank will drop out, but I don't think we really wanted them tanking anyway. Even if it makes for longer queues, I think that's a good thing.

    On the other hand, you're more likely to see geared tanks who are capable of solo tanking &/or will queue with a tank buddy continuing to tank to get off-spec gear when, otherwise, they might queue as dps or healer.

    I think we'll end up with BETTER tanks no matter what happens, but it might take longer to get them.

    As for the tank dropping issue, that's just a consequence of the instant tank queues... have a buddy queue with you on a "tank" (not even sure you need to have an actual tank spec picked to queue as a tank, can probably do it with dps/heal specs) and drop as soon as you get in. I still want a change in LFR where, if someone you queue with leaves before a boss dies, you get dropped as well. Seems simple enough to implement since they're still partied within the raid.

    Incompetent tanks have been the bane of melee forever. When I tank, I have two basic rules... 1) keep everything on me and taunt anything that I lose control of and 2) move them as little as possible while giving access to their backs.

    I don't see a lot of either of those in LFR, especially 1... tanking properly means rotating your target to keep high threat on everything, not just hoping that Swipe will be enough to keep all the bats on you vs a hunter doing 400K dps equally on all targets. I've even had tanks in LFR say that people should assist off them... which basically tells you they're only actually tanking one mob and just hoping the others stay on them. Makes me sad.

    I'm starting to rethink my opinion on healer requirements in LFR, at least in ToT... I've had some groups that had a rough time where the LOW healer was in the 30Ks and people were calling for that healer to be kicked... there's definitely some pressure put on healers in ToT. You can get away with half a dozen good dps on most fights, though.

    My biggest beef with tanks right now, though, is zoning into LFR and having both tanks have no idea how to do anything. "I haven't done this, what do I need to do?" I'd like to see killing the boss already (on any toon in any spec) as a requirement before you're allowed to queue as a tank for it... it wouldn't be perfect but it would at least HELP. Tank gear and dps gear are similar enough these days that you can dps in tank gear and be okay.

    1. Oh, and regarding monks... your current dps is pretty low for your gear (depending on your weapon) although with the changes in 5.3, should get an instant 10% dps increase, that'll help. I'd expect 70-80K as well.

      Monk dps is pretty much all about keeping up the buff and debuff and using TeB without overwriting itself. Intermediate skills are immediately using your free ability procs (it usually takes me 1 GCD to register that they've happened so I'm not great at that) and making sure to have at least 2 Chi for RSK once it comes off cooldown. Advanced techniques are figuring out when it makes sense to use SEF (which SUCKS but is helpful on fights like Council), saving up TeB for timing with trinket procs or higher-damage periods during a fight and making sure that RSK is used on AoE burst periods after all the adds are within range to get it on all of them.

      If you're doing those you'll be fine, the dps will come with practice and additional gear.

      The main reason I like monk tanking is that there's so much control... that's also what makes it challenging for someone who thinks just strapping on a shield makes him a tank.

      Pro tip: always have a bonus token for Council, far as I'm concerned that's the best boss in ToT for dps monks.