Thursday, May 23, 2013

I Want to Play With Bob

There is a thread over on MMO-Champion titled "How would you like to handle the gap between LFR and normal raiding?" Link. I've been enjoying reading both sides.  Seeing good points made on both sides and seeing clueless people on both sides.  But then just a short bit ago someone made a post that rang so true to me and I felt the real need to make a post about it because I know a few "bobs".

RickJamesLich Said:

Why is LFR a bad option if it perfectly fits Bobs needs? And who says that you *need* to kill the bosses in normal? On top of that, they got scenarios now for the slower guys that give better loot then even LFR, and challenge modes can reward gear as well. I think there's a sense of "failure is not an option right now" with some of the people on these boards when it's perfectly fine to not be able to kill a boss. And I've seen many of the guilds with Bobs go into ToT and at least be able to take down a few bosses.

Mad_Murdock Replied:

I believe you're looking at it all wrong. A Friends and family guild wants to do things together, they want to hang out with Bob because despite being terrible Bob is good people and everyone loves hanging out with Bob. Bob can run LFR with 24 strangers, but he's not paying to play with 24 strangers. Bob and friends can go into LFR and be grouped with 15 strangers, but there goes the whole playing with friends, which Blizzard has stated many times they believe is vital to the game.

So what you want to give is 2 options "Get better or quit" By the numbers we're seeing, people are taking the quit option. And you are in the group that believe this is a good thing. Blizzard and the other group doesn't agree.

I still haven't seen any real reason why a 10man LFR+ option is bad. All I see is "Normal is easy enough, if they can't do normal, they should quit" That's just a terrible mindset. The best way to ensure that Heroics stay heroic, is to ensure that the baddies and normal have something to do. You should be begging Blizzard for a 10man LFR plus option. Else you're really advocating that Blizzard go back to nerfing normal and heroics for all so that everyone has something to do with their friends and family. 

And now I want to thank Mad Murdock for putting it so perfectly.  For making me see that I know bob and I like bob and I would really enjoy playing with bob.

Actually when he mentioned bob it reminded me of a few people I know and I want to share my bob stories and explain why I like being able to play with bob.

Bob #1:  The PvP guy.

This bob is more of the PvP type of player in a PvE type of guild.  A military man that has served with people in our online family.  So even if we are not a PvP guild he is our PvP guy.  He is our family.  When I am in the mood to PvP he will gladly go with me and include me in his little crew that does them.  He will go out of his way to teach you everything you need to know about the battleground, he will play the leader, he will play any role needed.  He is well geared for PvP, well skilled for PvP and very knowledgeable and a good teacher for PvP.

How anyone can be that good at PvP and so bad at PvE I will always find astounding.  It escapes explanation.  He can go blow for blow with the best of them but telling him to move from the charge on horridon so that he is not facing the group when he gets to you is like I am speaking a foreign language to him. Usually PvPers make for amazing PvEers when they try but bob #1 is the exception to this rule.

He tries his best to keep at least one tank, one healer and one damage dealer at least close to current with their PvE gear.  When we are missing a person for our 10 man he is always the first to offer to help and also the first to offer to sit when someone better comes on.  He knows he is not a great PvEer but he still wants to help in every way he can, if we need him while at the same time being completely content if we never do.

Bob #1 is good people.  He will stop what he is doing to help you with a quest, give you an instant queue to a dungeon or the LFR on his tank or healer, make you anything you might need from his professions and he is always very upbeat and happy.  All in all a good presence in the clubhouse.

Sadly, bob can tend to be a problem sometimes.  Even on the first boss in ToT.  While we carried him as a healer in hopes he can get some gear and carried him as tank when I was the other tank and called out everything that needed to be done we can not carry him as a damage dealer.  At least not as we should.  We have 8 manned the first boss.  We do not need his damage.  But he just can not move when targeted.  Like I said, lightning reflexes in PvP and can't run out of a puddle when in PvE, I don't get it.  I finally told him, to NOT stack in the puddle with us.  That was the only way to get the boss down.

So Bob #1 is a bad PvEer.  I've proved that 100% haven't I?  But I like Bob.  I want to be able to play with him once in a while without having to change how we do things because he really isn't that great at PvE.

Bob #2:  The Healer vs. Mechanics

Bob #2 is actually an extremely good raider in most senses of the word.  She keeps up on her class, always knows the changes as soon as they happen and works tirelessly on getting gear when she is not raiding.  She comes to the raid with materials as she is a jewelcrafter and enchanter so if anyone wins something she can make what is needed so they can get it on right away.  She has not missed a raid in 3 years, she comes with her own food, flasks, and anything else you can imagine.  She is the ideal raider.

But some mechanics she just has issues with.  Not sure why but as I always say, some people are just better at things than others are and we all have something we have an issue with.

The first time we went to HoF she had an off night, as we rotate healers.  We were lucky enough to get the first boss down on that first night.  The week after she sat out so we could test a new healer and we one shot it that day.  The third week she came in and she was dying every single attempt.

She just could not get the circle thing.  Not sure why, but she died to it every single time.  We wiped 8 times that night, more than we wiped before the first time we beat it.  She knew it was all her fault too.  I did not say as much but when the healer dies so early in a fight every time, people know why you are wiping.  Like I said, she was a good raider, she knew it was her fault and offered to step out.

I told her she was not allowed too.  Not in a mean way of course.  We are a team, we win as a team and we wipe as a team and we all need to learn, today is just her day to learn.  We took a five minute break and I was told by a friend that she was crying.  She actually felt bad as if she was holding us back.  While to someone in a more progressed guild would surely say she was, I would say we are just experiencing her time to learn.  Just because we all learned it faster doesn't mean everyone learns at the same pace.

I whispered her some words of encouragement and let her know that we had not downed the second boss anyway, so it is not like we were losing loot because of the wipes, we will get this down before the night is over, she is getting better.

She did get better.  Took another 4 wipes but we got it down.  She kept apologizing over and over even if we all said it was no problem.  Some people just take a little longer to learn things that others.  That is something a Bob would do right?  Well this Bob #2 I like to raid with.  It just takes her a little longer to grasp some things.

On an interesting note, she made it through the tornado's on the second boss her first time.  I don't know a great deal of people that could say that.  Like I said, we all have our own learning curve.  Bob #2 just takes a little longer to learn some things.

Bob #3 : The Airhead.

Bob #3 is a girl.  I am not talking the type of girl that is horrible and gets taken along just because she is a girl or because she is dating someone.  I am talking the skilled, but sometimes common sense deprived person.  If you will excuse the expression, Bob #3 is a complete airhead.

If you have fallen off the bridge when there is no wind multiple times, you might be Bob #3 and not even realize it.  I just can not play with her in non raid content sometimes.  I find it infuriating.  She is an excellent raider, willing to sit out or level another character because we need that role filled.  She will learn that role and be ready to play it at our current level as fast as gear drops will allow.  She is dedicated, but she is also, as I said, is an airhead.

If there are mobs anywhere in the room, she will walk right into them.  If there is a pat that we say you need to avoid, she will surely AFK right where they pass.  If we take a 10 minute break it is not uncommon to come back to the entire raid being dead because she accidentally pulled the boss.  She dismounts herself mid fight at least 5 or 6 times a night if not more and no one has a clue how, not even her.

If there is a boss fight going on she is a beast.  Great at whatever you have her do.  When there is not anything going on, expect her to pull mobs to you even if you were one hundred percent sure there were no mobs within miles.

This type of behavior would clearly label her a Bob even if her ability might seem to say otherwise.  If you do not think this is Bob behavior, just trying doing a heroic scenario with her and saying, lets skip this pack only to her her say, okay, and still run right into them.

While I actually do not like playing with Bob #3 sometimes, I do like to raid with Bob #3.

Bob #4:  The Noob.

Back at the end of wrath a very quiet and very bad player joined our 25 man.  It was the 30% ICC buff days and we were blowing through everything so we had no issues bringing them.  Even after they got a lot of gear they still could not break 3K.  Think back if you can, 3K in ICC with the buff would be roughly the same as someone doing 15K in 500 gear now.  Horrible.

He got a little better as time when on.  He was always up for everything but really not that good at anything.  He was on vent all the time but he never said a word.  As rude as this might sound at first, it was like he was our mascot.  He tagged along with us everywhere we went and no matter what we did.  Honestly I could not tell you if Bob #4 was 13 or 30, I could not tell you if Bob #4 was male or female.  But Bob #4 still found a way to grow on you.

Somewhere between wrath ending and cataclysm beginning Bob #4 changed.  He became a vocal part of the guild and a great player.  Even earned an actual raid spot when we started raiding in cataclysm, not just a fill in spot because we needed a body role like he had always been either.

If you look now you will see his name littered in the top 50 on every world of logs fight since around firelands when he finally went from the getting better to the holy crap you are good phase.  Not only can he put out the numbers but he avoids the avoidable, never misses a raid, will tank for anyone that needs instant queue, will craft gear and even grind the materials to craft gear, if someone needed it.

He was once a Bob, Bob #4 if you will, and now he is indispensable as a raider.  We kept him around because he was our mascot, he became a part of the team never saying a word even if he was not great or even good.  It was that time we dragged him everywhere that made him want to get better.  He liked doing those raids and from listening on vent he knew that when we started the cataclysm raids he would not be a part of them.  So Bob #4 said, I need to get better, and he did.  If it were not for us playing with Bob #4 he would have just quit the game because he had nothing to do.  He even has said so himself.  Sometimes a Bob can be the best thing that ever happened to a raid team.  In time.

Bob #5:  Mr. & Mrs. Bob

All family and friends type guilds have these Bobs.  Most if not all casual guilds have these types of Bobs.  They are the "we only run together" crew.  One is usually good and one is usually bad.  Don't go assuming that it is the male that is good and the female that is bad however or you will have egg on your face.  I have seen it go either way myself.  Actually, more often than not, it seems the female is the better player.  Eat that one "girls don't play wow" crowd.

But they are good people and when we can squeeze them in we like to play with them.  They are fun to have around, knowledgeable about the game and in some ways even more knowledgeable about some things than anyone in the raid as raiding is not their focal point.

Sometimes you can get just one of them, usually the good one, but most times you have to take them both or get nothing.  Like those nights where you are down a tank he will tank, as long as there is an open space for her.  If there is, we would surely agree.  Although we all know she is bad, that doesn't mean we can't do content, or it shouldn't right.  Because Mr & Mrs Bob are nice people and sometimes it is nice to do something with them.

We actually have a joke this expansion or Mr & Mrs Bob thanks to MV.  They are two third players. We could do MVs first four bosses with them but could not down the fifth.  Kind of hard when they are both doing DPS in the 20s.  But hey, they were fun to play with and we were capable of doing a few bosses with them.  But even that only happened after we past MV and over geared it a little. 

The Mr & Mrs Bob I am thinking about at the moment have since quit the game as there is no place for them any more.  They get brutalized in the LFR because they are not good players and we have been focusing on new stuff so there were no older raids to invite them to that we would get some bosses down with them.  It is sad to see them go.  They were really nice people.

Bob #6 - 10,000+

There are so many bobs out there that fit so many stereotypes that I could not count or list them all even if I wanted to.  But what Mad Murdock said is so true.  Sometimes you just want to play with bob because you like bob.  No more, no less.  You just like bob and want to play a game with him.

So the answer to that question would be I think there should be a 10 man version of the LFR and/or a difficulty lower than normal but higher than LFR. 

Perhaps that 25 man I mentioned in my last post would have not been so horrible if there were such a thing.  LFR, with that group filled with Bobs, would have been a joke but normal with them was impossible.  It shows there is a clear gap there.  And all those people, those Bobs, are the ones that gap leaves with nothing.  And sadly for me, if I ever want to run 25s again on my server, I am going to have to take a few Bobs along like it or not.


  1. I think the real issue isn't the intrinsic difficulty of the raids themselves, but how much they moved things from a group challenge to a series of individual challenges. You can't bring Bobs to those kinds of fights no matter how it's tuned.

    Think of Yogg-Saron- the real challenge was in the brain room phase, but you could pick your 8 (iirc) best raiders to go down there. Think of the two dragon fight in Tier 11 (Valiona?) - it had multiple stack up/spread out mechanics that if a single person screwed up it was a wipe.

    If you had a bunch of players with equal skill, Yogg's the harder fight. If you have a raid of players with mixed skill, Valiona is. One fight tests your strongest players, another tests your weakest ones.

    I have very limited experience in Pandaria raiding outside of outside of LFR, but from my limited experience in MV it seems there is still an awful lot of individual accountability rather than testing the group. You certainly couldn't bring many of the Bobs to Elegon, and there would be many Bobs who'd be fine with Elegon but couldn't handle all the movement in the Stoneguard fight, etc...

    They key thing is is that if you want to bring Bobs you don't need a LFR10 or easier normal modes, you need to make fights test the group as a whole rather than the individuals. I personally consider that the entire point of raiding, so it sort of baffles me that they changed it to the current system.

    1. Yeah, when one bob can kill everyone it really makes bob an issue. If bob only got himself killed it would not be as much of an issue.

      If it were more a group effort then one person can pick up the slack of another. I agree. But when you put the pressure on one person to do something right or it is a wipe, bob has to sit on the bench because it seems to always pick poor bob.

    2. Very good point. Amber-shaper in HoF is a perfect example of that problem.

      In Heroic mode, everyone needs to be perfect or you wipe, but that's how it's supposed to be.

      In Normal mode, on average everyone should be good. If 10-20% screw up, it shouldn't mean instant wipe.

  2. I have friends. I'd love to raid with them. But they're not raiding material and I'd never force them upon my raid team. A raid team has to have equally skilled people or (no matter what) there will be problems.

    Take Bob#2. You decide she has to stay. Are you sure all players are on the same level, none of them feel their time is being wasted? None of them feel the least bit of frustration?
    My raid leader kept getting killed at the start of last Horridon phase by his pink direhorn. He's holy paladin, main healer, best suited to heal me up in that phase where the only real damage is on me. We were getting so pissed off with him. You think anyone gives a crap anymore of how much we like him and want him there if he's wiping us after 9 minutes every time?

    1. Yes, I was sure. She had been with us a long time and was just having issues catching up on one mechanic. We have all had things we had issue with. And she was a regular that was not there the first 2 times we downed it. So we had our chance to learn, now it was her chance to learn. It is a team belief. Not just mine. I believe that team attitude is a good thing, or would like to think it is.

      In your case it depends on your team. Are your guys pushing for progression as fast as possible? Has that person normally been very good just just taking a little more to adjust this time around?

      I would think hard core guild would be a three strike and your out rule, if that much. If he is the raid leader however then he should lead by example. I like to think I have to be better than anyone else just to be as good as them, because I am the raid leader. He should as well.

      If it is a casual raid team like mine, the team win matters more and we will be willing to give the person a few chances to learn. It helps when you know the player and you know their potential.

      Example, when we first got to will one of our tanks was horrible at the dance. We did everything perfect in every way except for him. He was the only reason we were wiping. I got 2 whispers asking if we should replace him and I answered both saying, give him a few more tries and he will be fine. The group listened to me, we wiped three more times, on the forth time he did it perfect, never got hit once and we downed it. He has never been hit with it since.

      I do not believe that replacing him would have solved anything. A new player would have had to come in an learn. I know him, I know his capabilities as a tank. Sometimes he is really slow on the uptake but once he has something he is gold with it. I could see he was getting it and he did.

      I can afford doing that when I play with people I know well. All because I know what people are capable of. Not to mention, how do you think he would feel if we replaced him? He might feel as if we don't want him, or he is bad, or we are saying he can't do it. He could end up quitting, he could end up feeling defeated and being worse next time.

      Kicking someone isn't always the answer. There is a lot more to it.

  3. Ah I agree with you Grumpy. I have a Bob in mind myself. I really like him, he is a genuinely nice guy. He'd never raided before Mists and so the runs he's done with me are his only raids, he has come on leaps and bounds since that first raid in MSV. However, on the dps board he's still going to be bottom of the list. Once he's done a pull or two unless it's a weird fight he'll be above the tanks, but he's not mixing it up at the top. Perhaps it's because our top dps is a ret paladin the same, so people compare the two and he looks worse from it. However, our top ret pally has got years of experience and some of the best gear in the guild. My Bob has only set foot in Throne once and started in MSV.

    I like him like I said. He's friendly, enthusiastic and so willing to learn. Every chance he gets he talks to our top ret pally for tips, studies logs to see the differences between them. I would rather have a raid full of Bob's like him than some of the people I have whose attitude, well less said the better really. However, I can't take him very often as it does slow us down.

    Personally that doesn't bother me as I like to raid with him, but I can't take the people I like I have to take the people with skills and they aren't willing to give him the time to learn. It's a balance I have to strike because my Bob will never get better if we don't give him a chance. Hell if I'd never given him a chance in the first place he never would have even tried raiding. I take him on the early bosses where I can but that doesn't help him learn the later ones. He came to fill in for us the other week when we were missing a dps. People were unhappy with him and I had to remind everyone that this was his first time on the boss. It's like once people learn it for themselves they then forget that they ever needed time to learn it.

    I would love, absolutely love, a 10 man LFR. I'd get down on my knees and beg blizz for that if I thought it would help. It would:
    a) give us a chance to practice the fight in a less punishing environment.
    b) let us practice working with new team members in a less punishing environment, as synergy in working together takes a while.
    c) progress as a guild on this weird legendary quest. I'm on the runestones part but we're not getting to the last half of Throne right now. I should queue for LFR but I hate it so much.
    d) we could try out recruits and see how they operate in a raid environment. For a tryout for a raid team in the past I went and run a couple of heroics with them. Well heroics are not exactly challenging for prospective raiders (or shouldn't be) so it was hardly much of an interview. LFR gets a bit closer to the real thing.
    e) We could play and practice with our Bob's in an environment where they'd be allowed to learn and screw up and it wouldn't (likely) affect the outcome.

    I'm sure there's a lot more reasons. 10 man LFR would completely change how I view LFR. It wouldn't be lag city, abuse hell. It would be something with the guild, a tool for us, or even something among a group of friends, some from one guild, some from another.


    1. ...

      My friend asked me yesterday if I was raiding that week (she knew that my guild had been having trouble) and I said yeah likely would be. They needed a tank as they (like us) only have 2 and one of them couldn't come. I really would have liked to go and help them, they had planned to continue their lock and try progressing on Dorumu which I know from experience is so much easier 1 tanking it. My guild can't take it 2 tank, never has been able to. That isn't good obviously but I'm not going to complain as we can get past it. However, I couldn't get locked so I had to say no.

      So my suggestion is make normal lockouts work like LFR. Once you have loot that it's but you can kill it more than once. It might get complicated with the lockout part of how you'd continue from bosses, but it could give you an option I suppose. It could say you've killed bosses 1-4 do you want to start at 5? So even if I'd killed boss 6 with this other group it wouldn't let me skip to 7 as I hadn't killed the bosses before it. Not sure I explained that right, I do think that'd be good though. Encourage more co-operation between friends and guilds.

      Oh and by the way I think you are right about the heroic scenarios bringing back some community. Even on my dead server I see lots of messages with people going "LFM heroic scenario". So maybe blizz did something right with those.

      Oh and sorry again for writing so much. I don't mean too. It's just your topics are so interesting. I guess I should go to my blog and write, rather than write stupid long comments.

    2. You nailed it with your bob friend there. He has the potential to be great but because of design he will never get the true chance to learn and get better. He has desire to learn, willingness to wipe, and a good attitude.

      Something that 90% of the new raiders don't seem to have. They all think they are great even when in last place and blame their gear. They all think you suck if you wipe because only bad groups wipe. And they all have the attitude that everyone should be better and pick on anything everyone does wrong but forgets what they did wrong themselves.

      I like that idea, can only loot normal modes once a week but can do them as many times as you like. Awesome idea. Gets my vote for sure.

      I am glad you are liking the posts. Good to see my rants are not going to waste. ;)

  4. Sounds like your Bob #4 sold his account between Wrath and Cat. :)

    Yep, there's definitely a skill gap in the game right now that isn't satisfied by any existing content. I know a lot of players in-game who are too good for LFR but aren't good enough for reasonable progression on Normals. I know one raid group who are still stuck on the first boss of ToT. My raid, who just killed Tortos for the first time this week (so, not exactly world first material), are almost to the point where we can kill the first boss during the 2nd puddle. Similar gear between the two groups, it's just a skill/execution gap.

    THEIR group should be 4/12 at this point, normal modes should be for them. My group should be 9/12 and trying to decide, once we get a full clear, whether we'll want to deal with heroics or just finish gearing out to prepare for 5.4.

    Blizz has already publicly acknowledged that they didn't do a good job of scaling the difficulty in ToT... gives me some hope that 5.4 will be better designed from a difficulty ramp-up perspective. If not, I think it's going to have some pretty dire consequences for the next expansion (World of Warcraft: Unification... where Horde and Alliance races functionally merge after Hellscream is usurped and players can either stick with the merged faction or become an Undead version of their race under Sylvanas as the second faction, along the lines of the choice Monks have to make when they leave the starter island... I totally want that expansion to happen).

    1. I could see how you can say that but I am 100% sure it is the same person. He just got better because he wanted to keep playing with us.

      My guild is like yours. We are way behind where we should be. We can kill the first boss in two puddles as well but we keep running into oops moments or execution issues that cause us stupid wipes on heavy mechanic fights like horridon and it eats up a crap load of time. Raiding on 2 hours, there are so many bosses you can get down when you are not perfect and I feel like if we ever want to see more than 4 bosses we need to be perfect. We might just start extending lock outs out of frustration as everyone is almost geared to the point we do not need to start fresh.

      If I were you, and position wise it seems we are close, I would say just keep farming normals and maybe try the easier heroics at best when the time comes. That is my intention.

      Sounds like an interesting idea for an expansion but I think it is way to radical to happen.

      5.4 will be like DS. First boss will be LFR easy, first 4 will be minor skill and mechanic based, and 5th boss will be the DPS check. It will ramp up each boss after that and it will satisfy most. They will also do the debuffs to allow everyone to see normal and we will be able to bring bob with us near the end of the expansion because we will basically be able to 5 man 10 man by that point thanks to gear and buffs. That is my guess.

    2. I was kidding with the account sale comment but I can honestly say I've never seen anyone overhaul their performance that much that quickly. Kudos to your Bob #4.

      Well, "should be" is an awkward term... based on the actual difficulty our raids are probably exactly where they should be. I just wish ToT was tuned a bit softer &/or with fewer mechanics to deal with.

      Oh, if we do end up clearing before 5.4 (which I seriously doubt) I don't see us trying heroics, I just think in a DS-level difficulty world that should be something we'd be thinking about at this point. DS was perhaps tuned a bit low on most fights (I still hate Spine's burst requirement, we had 4 DoT dps classes at that point and it was a major, major hassle) but was pretty close to where I'd have wanted it. ICC was almost dead on perfect, minus Defile... Defile needed 2s more on its cast time.

      I hope you're right about the 5.4 raid... I think we all need another one of those at this point. Save the really tough fights for heroic.

    3. I figured you were kidding. And I say it to him more often. I say, if I had a guild full of players like you we would be competing for top 10 in the world, not top 10 on the server. I am just glad he has not left us.

      I actually have 2 like him now on my team. Another one that players a hunter like me. I've taught him everything I know and he has passed me in what he can do. He is amazing.

      Now if only I can get some better healers. lol

      ICC was at that sweet spot. I agree. Even before the nerfs it was near perfect. DS was okay, except for spine as you said, that burst requirement could be issues for some groups without a great burst make up. Other wise it was fairly well done. First boss was really way to easy however. I know the first boss easy, but that was a joke. My guild has never in its history went in and one shot a boss the day it came out and we one shot that. The next week I solo tanked it. So yeah, a little too easy.

      Lets hope that 5.4 goes the ICC and DS route. Those were both last raids, this will be a last raid. We have history on our side.

    4. Yeah, I think the first boss ended up softer than they expected in DS... my raid one-shot it as well and it was the first time we'd done that, too. However, I ran with another group that failed to get it on their first night so again, there are a range of skills and competencies out there even among "raiders". :)

      I think Blizz is more afraid of putting up fight barriers in the last raid of the expansion, could too easily lead to an unsub... with steady progress, even if slow, should keep players engaged. I'm optimistic.

      As for the expansion idea, it's one I've had floating around in my head for all of MoP but BBB put the actual framework around it a while back:

      Only 2 factions in my vision, though, Alliance (including current horde races) and Forsaken (undead versions of all races). On first login after the expansion hits, you get a solo scenario that lays out what's happening and at the end you choose whether to go with the new Alliance or whether to, basically, suicide and be brought back voluntarily as Forsaken.

      Almost everything happening in game now, even more since 5.3 hit, seems to feed into that happening. I'm not optimistic about this one, but very hopeful, I think it would be great. And sure, it would be a bigger shock than Cataclysm was, but I think most would agree that WoW needs a major injection of something significant these days. Sure, it would piss off some hard-core Hordies, but they've been getting the best storylines for years... payback's a bitch.

    5. All raid teams are different. Mine has had problems with stuff others say are hard and had no problems with stuff that people said was easy. Like 3rd boss MV. Got it on our third attempt and some people said it took them 50 tries. Or 5th boss, we got it our fight night on it. Sure we had a few tries at nights end when we stopped there but the first night we started there, we downed it. I heard other groups say it took for what felt like forever.

      Yet on some bosses other say are a push over, we wipe 40 times on it. Every group has its strengths and weaknesses.

      The only reason I think that would not work is because there would not many that would want to be forsaken. Unless they add a way for you to be your own race and forsaken. Like have you ever seen a forsaken tauren, gnome, etc. They would need to have all versions of forsaken if that had any chance of working.

      I read a post about why the horde have been getting so much more play time and it makes a lot of sense. Still sucks to be alliance this expansion and being on the sidelines watching almost everything.

    6. Yeah, that's definitely true... all groups have their own, unique difficulties. :)

      That's the one hitch, they'd need to make Forsaken appealing... but it's not like there aren't any Death Knights running around, apparently people aren't always picky about the pulse rate of their toons and as long as they have the DK models rather than the jawbone-hanging look, I don't think the aesthetics will be a problem.

      Sylvanas has been very, very quiet since Wrath, she has to be up to something big and has had a long time to do it without any supervision. Blizz has been taking a LONG time, longer than I think most expected, to re-design the race models. It's not that much of a stretch to think that they're having to create a full second, Forsaken set. They might already be done but they won't be able to put them into the game files until after the expansion is announced to avoid spoilers.

      I find Sylvanas to be one of the more interesting NPCs in the game and I've spent very little time on the Horde side, from their side I find her even more interesting (and more than a bit concerning)... I'd be interested to see what she's doing from the inside. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't any hard-core anti-Alliance Horde players? Wouldn't Alliance players looking for a meatier storyline for nearly the first time since Onyxia? I'd argue that Anduin is Alliance's most interesting active storyline and all he's doing is getting chummy with a dragon that my rogue is already on friendly terms with from Cat.

      I don't think it'd be that big of a stretch, really. I haven't started any new toons for lore reasons for YEARS... I'd love a reason to do it again now.

    7. Perhaps they would like them more with, oh, skin maybe. ;)

      I have a feeling she is going to play a huge part in coming events. Not so much as making her own faction but trying to take control of the horde as her own. Over all she is the most qualified of the current leaders even if I do like Vol more. I like him being the brains behind the man like he was to thrall.

      Anduin will rise up to lead the army of light against wrathions army of darkness next expansion. It has been building to that all expansion. So it will happen, I am sure of it.

    8. Yes, we'd want skin attached models... if folks want the skin hanging look, there'd be a race for that that's Sylvanas-only to counteract... eh, Pandaren, let's leave them living-only.

      Well, a lot of folks are speculating that the next expansion will be back to a major, racial enemy... not necessarily just a few NPCs, but an entire race coming after you. Think Orcs coming after Humans in the original Warcraft.

      Problem is, there are too many forces in play right now pushing Horde and Alliance together, Wrathion included. I'm not sure another expansion like Wrath, with basically a 3rd, non-playable faction in the Scourge, makes sense... Alliance vs Horde, Alliance vs Scourge, Horde vs Scourge... even in Wrath, Horde and Alliance teamed up for the end-game, more or less. This next expansion baddie has to be WORSE than the Scourge, which should require the Horde and Alliance teaming up full-time. But the game wouldn't work with only one faction...

      ... leaving the opening for Sylvanas.

      Alright, let's stop discussing this, it'll just make me more disappointed if it doesn't happen. With Titan apparently pushed back &/or back to the drawing board, Blizz needs the next WoW expansion to be something close to a home run... I really think this should be it.

    9. I think game play wise it is going to revert to the wrath style with 10 and 25 being separate lock outs again and easier gearing for alts and late comers.

      It seems that was their high time and despite all the cries of "for the casuals" they have noticed that is who buys the game now. We are in the x-box generation of instant gratification and they are going to give it to us.

      Whatever the story is, the game will become more player friendly. At least I believe it will.

    10. I don't think split raid lockouts will bring back anyone who's left the game and it definitely won't be on the radar for any new players. :) Plus, that change would hurt me, I'd count it as a negative to continue playing. Probably not enough to put me over the edge, but to creep me closer to it.

      They need some sort of MAJOR shift in the game itself (not the mechanics) to rejuvenate interest in the player-, ex-player- and future-player-bases.

    11. I can see how split raids might actually scare some people away, as you mentioned. Read a post somewhere the other day where someone went on about how it would be bad for the game. While their post was great and I believe they were right, for my own selfish reasons, I would still want to see it return.

  5. I want to Raid with Grumpy too.

    Be nice to Bob. Bob's are great.

    I think I am most of those Bob's anyway, at least 2,4 and 5.

    1. We are all one of the bobs once in a while. I know I am too.

      Maybe we should find a server we can all reroll alt on to play once in a while just for fun.

      Name it Grumpys Playhouse or something. :P

  6. "Bob" spelled backwards is "boB".

    stay frosty...

    1. I thought I had it spelled wrong, thanks.

    2. oh gwad, "Grumpy's Playhouse". Shades of PeeWee....

      just run...

    3. That actually just makes it even funnier.