Tuesday, May 21, 2013

All About The Tank Issue in the LFR.

The recent change to tanks being the most in demand role for the LFR from its original tanks having longer queue time than damage dealers has really made the LFR hell lately. 

I queued up as a healer the other day and waited in queue for an hour and twenty minutes before I said "fuck it" and just quit.  Logged off the game, did not even switch to another character because I had no desire to play any more.

The thing is that I was left feeling like I wasted an hour and twenty minutes of my life.  I could have done the island dailies on three characters in that time.  I could have done the 80 valor heroics on four or five characters in that time.  I could have done the first scenario on every single 90 I have in that time.  I could have leveled one of my alts.  I could have went on my horde hunter to play the auction house some because he needs a little cash flow.  I could have quested on my healer instead of sitting there in healing spec while waiting doing absolutely nothing.  Okay, that last one is my own fault, but I blame blizzard for all the others.

See, the thing is that after wasting that time in queue I felt like I was screwed over by the game.  I lost all that time playing in an attempt to play.  I even put in a ticket about my previous two hour wait on a DPS and believe it or not have a GM respond quickly, while I was in this 1 hour healer queue.  I spent a good 15 minutes with them complaining about the LFR issues and all they could say was, I agree with you, go post it in suggestions and maybe something can be changed.

I have no desire to post something in suggestions.  I have no desire to post anything on the official forums.  Who would ever post anything on them?  They are horrible and I told the GM as such.  I said, perhaps if your moderators did their job and banned all the trolls so when people posted stuff it gets discussed instead of being derailed off topic near instantly.  But until this game starts to give a shit about their customers, I have no desire to waste my time making suggestions that will not be read or end up locked and closed because it went off topic thanks to trolls the game does nothing to control.

Needless to say it was an interesting conversation.  The GM was polite and as such while I did complain I was polite in doing so.  When all was said and done I thanked them for their time and letting me vent a little bit.  They said, any time, my ideas were good and I really should consider posting them.  They assured me it will be read.  But as polite as the GM was, how understanding they were with me being upset, a much as they agreed with nearly everything I said, I can not and will not believe them when they say my post would be read.  Sorry, once bitten twice shy.  I hate talking to a wall.  Posting a suggestion on the blizzard forums is effectively talking to a wall.

But part of what we discussed was the tank issue in the LFR.  I mentioned that making them so one tank can do them might help with a few of the issues.  I also mentioned that making them a little less damage intensive on that one tank could help as well.  They should be designed so a tank at 480, the minimum for the ToT ones, can easily solo tank them even if they are not a master of using their cooldowns.

My theory behind this was four fold.

Fold one.  You can do the LFR with only 10 decent damage dealers.  I am not even talking good, just decent.  You can do the LFR with only 4 decent healers.  I am not even talking good, just decent.  But you can not do the LFR without two good tanks.  Yes, good tanks.  If a tank that was only decent walked in they would be street pizza in a matter of seconds leaving one tank left to tank it.  And even if the healers were able to keep that one tank up it would drain the healers so the rest of the raid might take the short end of the stick by dying because a tank that was only decent was demanding all the healers time.

Fold two.  480 healers can go in there and have a bit of a challenge.  If all 6 healers are at 480 and none of them are at exceptional skill levels the LFR can be extremely challenging.  But it would be doable.  Same goes for DPS.  If all the damage dealers were at 480 and none of them were exactly what you would consider good, as long as they knew how to stand away from avoidable damage, which in and of itself is asking a lot, you could get it down.  It would be pushing it, but it could get done.

But a tank in 480 gear with limited skills will get destroyed.  If both tanks are in 480 gear and both tanks are lower on the skill ladder, it is wipe city.  Even if the tanks do have some skills, when placed with all 480 healers those healers would not be able to keep them up.  When placed with all 480 damage dealers, the fights would go on longer than their cooldowns could last.  So while 480 healers and damage dealers can do it, 480 tanks really can't if they do not have better people backing them up unless they were exceptional tanks and lets face it, seeing exceptional in the LFR is rare.

Fold 3.  Back to the you can do it with 10 DPS and 4 healers.  You can't do it with 1 tank.  People in other roles can slack off but people in the tank role, there is no room for error.  You both need to be good and there is no where to hide.  All fights should be capable of being one tanked for this very reason.  If you have two good tanks, awesome.  If you don't, at least with one you can still get it done.  One tank fights in LFR are not a suggestion.  They are a requirement.  There is a difference.

Durumu is the perfect example of this fold.  If many of the damage dealers fail at the maze you can still down it.  Even if a few of the healers die you can do it but it is a bit harder.  If both tanks die it is a wipe if they are not picked up ASAP.  It can not be done without them and even if one survives if that one is not a paladin that knows how to solo tank it, it is a wipe.  How come everyone else gets a free pass but the tanks don't?

Fold 4.  Knowing the fights.  You can go in as a damage dealer and wing it.  Kill the thing the tank is tanking, avoid stuff that hurts, and follow any friendly, or no so friendly, instructions that someone will yell out like kill the adds first.  As a healer your job is the same it is on 99.9% of the fights you will run into.  Heal people.  Dispel what you can.  Avoid the avoidable.  But tanks, they need to know what they are doing.  If they don't the fights can be hard or downright impossible.  Don't know when to taunt, wipe.  Don't know how to position a mob, wipe.  Don't know when to use your cooldowns, wipe.  So many chances in the fight for a tank to make a mistake that can wipe the raid if they do not know what they are doing.  Once again putting the weight of the world on their shoulders.  The least they could do it let these be one tanked with the second serving as a back up.

Could this all be the reason we see so few tanks?  I think so. In part at least.  I know I will not tank them without another tank with me.  If I do not have someone to work taunts out with I do not bother or even consider entering the queue.

No matter what goes wrong it is the tanks fault.  Tank dies three times in one fight.  Tanks fault.  Okay, it sure as hell could be, but it isn't always.  The problem is that the other players can not tell the difference between a tank dying because he is a bad player or a tank dying because the other tank is a bad player or the tank dying because the healing core is bad.  Most people see a dead tank and it is the tanks fault.  Sometimes it will be called the healers fault and rarely, as in I have never seen it except for when I had to point it out, it is the other tanks fault.

Last boss in HoF when the tank got controlled.  Bad tank everyone screamed.  I said, he did fine, but if the other tank does not taunt he gets controlled.  At least when I tank on my druid, a night elf, I have a trick that I use for situations like that.  Its called shadowmeld.  Yes, it works actually.  Sometimes.  But if the other tank is not second on threat the melee start to die a horrible death.  Sorry.  It is me getting controlled and a sure wipe or me doing this and hoping the other tank gets a clue and we have a chance to still win.  Either way, I will do anything in my power to force the other tank to do their job.  Most people do not have that luxury.

Now lets change the tone of this gripe post from on tanking end of the spectrum where I sympathize with them to one where I bitch at them.

And this is another issue.  People are always yelling at the tanks.  Who wants to play under those conditions?  I sure don't.  And while I am about to bitch right here be assured I have never once said any of these in raid, the tanks have enough asshats to deal with, why add my two cents to their already full plate.  But I will complain to my guild mates on vent.  And boy oh boy can I complain when it comes to bad tanks.

I never noticed it as much until I started to melee more when it comes to the damage dealer aspect of dealing with tanks.  As range I oft times never even notice if the tank is tanking a mob in a bad place or facing a bad direction because it does not effect me as much as it would a melee, if at all.

As a healer I always knew some of the bad tank issues.  Have you ever wasted nearly your entire mana bar trying to keep a tank up on the pull?  I have.  Have you ever needed to always heal every bit of a big move that is easily noticeable and they could have hit a cooldown for it?  I have.  Have you ever had to heal a tank that just stood in the bad because he thinks he is the tank and he doesn't need to move?  I have.  Healers can pick out a bad tank in one pull most of the times.  But their issues are not the same issues melee have, poor poor melee.  At the mercy of the tank.

It seems like the break down is something like this.  10% of random tanks are good or great.  60% are decent as in there are some issues but most you can deal with.  And that last 30% make you want to reach through the monitor and strangle them to death.  Don't tell me you never felt that way.  I know you have.  Admit it.

As a melee a lot recently I have been experiencing that more and more.  The biggest issue in the LFR with the bad tank issue is Lei Shi in terrace.  Tanks spin her around like a top.  What are we playing?  Spin the bottle.  I don't want her to kiss me, she hurts when she kisses.  Then you get the healers yelling at the melee for taking avoidable damage.  I have yet to die from it, but I have taken a fair deal of damage from it that I shouldn't have and none of it was my fault.  It seems like they do not realize that it is not only them that takes that damage when she splashes.  Anyone in front does.  So they just spin her around like crazy.  Stop it.

Or how about the tanks that like to kite Primordius as if he catches them he will kill them so they move at 100 MPH making it nearly impossible to keep up.  It is not the moving that makes it hard to keep up.  If you can not DPS while moving it is a "learn to keybind and move with your mouse" issue.  But it is the fact that they do not move in a circle, they move all over the freaking place.  If they moved in a set motion it is nice and easy to keep up with them but when they are all over the place like a drunk driver I just want to go to the middle of the room and sit down.  Why even try when half the time I am out of range because I can never tell where the hell they are going to zig or zag next.  With a good tank that moves in a set pattern and motion I consider Primordius basically a patchwork fight when you are transformed and because of that I love it as melee, I can really work my rotation.  When they are bad tanks however it goes to the other end of the spectrum pretty damn fast.

Or how about those lovely bosses like Stone Guard or Lei Shen that love to drop their puddles in melee all the time and the tanks decide it is not worth moving them.  Maybe, just maybe, they will move it so they can stand in a safe place which I am sure the healers are thankful for but what about us melee that need the mobs back?  Sure we can attack from the front if there is no cleave effect from the boss.  But it is not ideal.  And we are trained by the nature of our role to attack from behind.  Are all tanks clueless in the game today?  Even the seemingly great tanks I have seen in the LFR otherwise all seem to love to park the bosses ass in the bad.  Every.  Single.  Time.  Do they get a manual that reads "how to fuck with melee" or something because my tanks apparently missed that book.

Tanking is like real estate.  It is all about location, location, location.  How come every single tank that runs in the LFR has no clue how to position a mob?

So sometimes when people yell at these tanks they deserve it.  Many times however, they do not.  I just DPS from the side, or front if the boss mechanics will allow, but it does bother me too.  I just do not yell at the tanks in raid.  I might whisper them nicely, but never call them out in public.

Maybe that is because me, unlike most that play the game, understands that for everyone else the LFR can be fun but for a tank it is always work.  I think that is a huge key to why they are not entering the LFR as tanks.  They want to play too, not work.

Maybe blizzard needs to look at that a little bit when they try to address the issue with the long queue times.  Make the LFR more tank friendly and maybe more tanks will tank.  Making it a little more idiot proof can't hurt either.  Making all fights designed to be one tanked would be a start.

I bitched, I complained, I moaned, I feel better now.

So patch day is here, do you think we will see more tanks because of the off spec rolling or fewer?  It could go either way.


  1. While I used to like Tanking, I basically stopped soon after Cata hit.

    Firstly because due to the bad tuning in (most of) the levelling content Tanking was almost redundant, and more importantly - as has been said by people since the dawn of the LF tools - the social context often just not being fun, either (you 'must' always know the dungeons beforehand, outgear them, and keep everybody alive while at the same time speed through Instances).

    Until this social context changes (which I don't see happening soon, with all the emphasis in game mechanics etc. on helter-skelter content consumption), I don't see me returning and in general improve the situation.

    As for queuing woes: I know how it sounds and the negative sinvolved, but running two (+) copies of the game at the same time makes for a more relaxing way to play, you keep one guy in queue (with Sound in background toggled on) and the other copy with or without sound (sound being, at least for my computer, the hardest to handle simultaneously for multiple copies) you play a character involving something simple like munching easy Quests, AH etc. That way you don't waste time with either just waiting or doing something you don't really wanted to do due to 'queue anxiety' (and the often-accompanying too little bagspace)

    1. Yes, but I can not have 2 characters on the same account going at the same time.

      My other account is inactive and will remain so until I am given a decent reason to resub it, even if it just to get some bait mount, that would be enough.

      My computer can handle it but the biggest issue for me is it should not have to. You should never have to wait in queue for any type of random content for more than 20 minutes. If it is more than 20 minutes that blizzard needs to do something to make it more attractive to people so it becomes less than 20 minutes.

  2. I agree. I tanked in 5.0 and 5.1 but stopped because I always refused to do it in lfr. Not that I was a bad tank or anything. I only did fights I knew such as those in MV. I just hated the trolls in there whenever I'd heal or DPS. And I didn't tank anything else because I wasn't always comfortable doing other fights and I didn't want to screw over the 24 other people. Something needs to be done but I I doubt anything will change until next expansion.
    I do have a question and possible topic for you in the future: what still motivates you to play, especially if you suddenly stopped raiding? That's my problem now. I have the achievements I've worked for, suchas those for mounts and reputation and might finish loremaster. But otherwise since my guild has fell apart and due to real life I'm not raiding. My gear is 503. I don't know what to spend this valor I have because of the rep requirements in throne. And I hate lfr...the queue time, the trolls, and just the fact I have to do them to spend my valor once I get to say revered. Of course if I ever post this someone like Bashiok will say spend your valor on those new upgrade vendors, when he'd be avoiding the real issue of double gating and there not being any real choice. And i dont want to spend valor upgrading an item when i have enough to get a piece thats 20 points vs 8 points higher but cant due to rep. Thanks always great points grumpy!

    1. I thought I was facing this raiding-less future (and still might be) so I sat down and thought about what I liked about the game. I've never really been one to care about gear, it's always been a happy side benefit to what I liked to do.

      So try asking yourself what is you like about the game? You mentioned achievements and mounts. Are there any that you don't have? How about Pet Battles? There's Open Raid which might be an option to get some real raiding in. Just think about it, it might help :)

      I agree that they have done a very poor job, well actually done nothing at all, to provide gear progression for non-raiders (and I'm including LFR in that). Apparently gear will drop in the new heroic scenarios but we'll have to see about that. It does make me very concerned though especially as Ghostcrawler said in an interview that they were thinking about not even having any valor vendor in 5.4, just having the upgrade ones. Would not having the option at all be worse than double gating? I don't know but seriously what are they thinking? For all that they are trying to funnel everyone into LFR, they surely must know that not everyone can or will go there? Crazy.

    2. What still motivates me? Habit.

      Seriously. There are other reasons to play like friends in game but even that is not enough to keep me playing if I ever reach the point I do not enjoy it. So if I ever reach that point it would be habit that would keep me playing, nothing more, nothing less, nothing deep and filled with insight. Perhaps I should make a post about that. Nice idea.

      You are right. If you posted your concerns the troll will just tell you to get better and not understand that you are not them and perhaps you play a different way and if you do get a response from a blue it will be the standard company line instead of actually addressing what you asked.

      This is why I say never post on the forums. ;)

      Not be being grumpy about that, me being a realist about it.

      Thanks for reading and hope you can hand on. I think, hope, there are better times in the future. Cata went one way, mists another, is it sad that the best hope the game has is a new expansion where they can hopefully find the middle ground?

    3. @ Taitrina

      The no progression for non raiders is killer and they will see that reflected in the US/UK subs, I am 100% certain about that.

      If GC was serious about not new valor gear, and I hope he isn't, it will be the death of the game for many. Even casual raiders who use the valor gear to help them get past those first few bosses and need it would now be screwed.

      So not only would they screw 90% of the player base, but out of the 10% that do raid, they would screw 90% of them too. Leaving raiding for the 1%, just like the hard cores wanted.

    4. you know, I did some of the dailies for the Flying Cloud Serpent folks the other day with a friend. You know it took me about 3 hours to do 5 dailies! Slow huh. I gather about 20 or so valor, though. :D

      I had forgotten valor was part of dailies. But, I don't have 3 hours every day to do dailies.

      Hopefully I am not posting in the wrong area. But if I am, forgive me.

      stay frosty...

    5. Grumpy he didn't say that there wouldn't be ways to advance your gear in 5.4 but that valor would be for upgrading gear. He clarified on another interview later. They are going to provide new ways of earning gear outside of the raid for everyone. I'm intrigued and looking for ward to see what they come up with :) In fact this seems to be almost something along the lines of what you have been wanting IE not having to do a rep and pay valor for gear.

    6. Okay, that is good.

      I was fearful that they would just make no valor gear what so ever. Than what would be the use of valor?

      Nice to see he cleared that up. Even nicer that he is considering giving the non raiders an option to feel as if they are getting a little progression.

  3. I'm a tank and I flatter myself to think that I would be in your 10% of good tanks. I never queue for LFR, not ever. What would get me to queue for LFR? Nothing really.

    If LFR queues were instant jobs like dungeons then I might think about it. However, spending hours in a group where even if I'm giving it my all and playing a blinder we still wipe over and over, you know I get enough of that raiding normals, I don't need it in a random. I'm not convinced that making fights one tankable would help. On the rare occasion I have gone into LFR I've queued with my tanking partner, and while the runs haven't been awful, there's still been wipes. We've hit beserk thanks to awful dps. There's been deaths because even though we don't stand in bad, we blow our cds when we need to, the healing still isn't enough. If all the fights were one shot, like it is for dungeons unless you get the mother of all bad groups, then I might think about it.

    However, it's not the queue time, or the wipes, or even the lousy droprate for gear I don't even need, it's the other players. I don't have stories like the commenter yesterday about purposeful griefers. I do have stories about people being incredibly abusive though even when I've done nothing wrong. Like you said, if you die even though it was the other tanks fault for not taunting for example, it's still your fault. God forbid you make an actual mistake, which happens to us all, nobody is perfect. Why would I subject myself to that?

    I consider LFR to be a gigantic waste of time. I need the runestones for the last part of the legendary quest, I won't get them any other way, so I'm not going to be able to progress and get my cloak tomorrow. I won't queue for LFR. I won't queue as tank and I definitely won't queue as dps. At least if I queue as tank then I'm not going to be at the mercy of a bad tank. I queued on my warlock a few weeks back for the first and only time, and man the tanks were bad, as I'm a tank I think I can say that as I know what they should have been doing. It's incredibly frustrating and I just won't do it.

    So there isn't anything they can do to making tanking LFR's more attractive. Short of making instant groups, one shot all boss groups, and turning off all inter-group communication. Players having to fill certain roles means there's always going to be a shortage of something, they should make up the shortfall with buffs or NPC's. Either that or design the raid so it's flexi size, able to be completed with any group composition of any number, or at least just any composition.

    Make 10 man LFR's would be one answer. It's easy so even if you only had 7-8 guildies/friends to run with it wouldn't matter if the last couple were bad unless they were griefers, in which case you have the majority to remove them. This would screw over everyone who doesn't have someone to queue with as I can't imagine what the queue times would be for randoms then. So I know they'll never do this, even though it would be better for a lot of people.

    TLDR: It can't be fixed.

    1. The one tank thing is only part of the fix. The other is they really need to make LFR "random proof" by meaning that even the worst random group can manage to do it. As in a group where the top DPS is 30K, they should be able to do it. Where the top healer can barely keep themselves and the tank up without going oom in 30 seconds, that even they can heal it. They need to make it "random proof" so they become what they are intended to be.

      Let me repeat what they are intended to be in nice big bold letters so if someone from blizzard comes here they might notice it.


      For raiders it is a means to an end. valor, drops for stuff to help with their real raid, to practice, etc. But for the people it is meant for it fails miserably.

      It is way to hard for people to just see the content. They need to stop trying to make people that just want to see content into raiders. Trust me blizzard, if they wanted to be raiders there are enough guilds out there begging and screaming for raiders. They can raid if they want to. And if they are people that want to raid but do not have the time, then at least they can SEE THE CONTENT in the LFR so if a pug ever happens when they do have time they will have a basic idea of what they are in for.

      It can be fixed. Actually it can be fixed really easy. Just make the LFR what it was intended to be. A place for people to see the content. Should be 30 minute runs, at max, with limited chance to wipe. That is what LFR should be.

      Sorry for the rambling, I could not help myself. lol

  4. If anything, I think groups are easier on tanks than they should be... a bad tank (or worse, a troll) can do a LOT more damage to a group than 3 AFK dps can.

    I don't have an issue with that responsibility, either... tanks ARE more responsible than anyone else in group content. What I wish is that it could somehow be communicated to those who queue as tanks. "Note - you are queuing as a tank, tanks need to know details of fight mechanics that aren't required by other roles and should only be attempted once you've researched or experienced a fight already."

    The problem is, the requirement to tank well enough not to piss people off is so damned low compared to the other two roles that I have almost no patience for incompetent tanks. Taunt at 4 stacks, stay out of the bad, win. That's, literally, all it takes on most fights. Compare that to doing a full dps rotation for a full fight... or being an undergeared healer trying to put up a number in a group with 3 geared, competent Atonement priests. Once you actually know the mechanics, tanking is generally EASY from that point on.

    The problem is, they have to know the mechanics and some just seem unable to do it. Taunting seems to be the big issue right now, more and more I'm seeing TAUNT! in raid chat by one tank to the other, often multiple times... that's a matter of pushing one button, once. That takes 5 seconds? Or 10? I mean, if you're not tanking, what are you doing that's keeping you from reading raid chat or, y'know, taunting proactively when the time comes? Busy standing in bad to keep vengeance up? Oh, well, carry on then...

    The problem with bad tanking is that it generally isn't obvious to anyone who isn't watching for it (or unless you're the other tank). Healers won't necessarily notice, ranged will almost never notice and melee will only notice positional issues. You can see 15K dps or 10K hps on a chart and determine (rightly or wrongly) that someone isn't very good, but bad tanking is more subtle.

    On the other hand, when I do notice bad tanking, I'll call it out... not harshly, just stuff like "Tanks, please don't turn the boss toward melee, his cleave hurts". If we end up wiping after that because of it, I'll request a vote kick and it'll almost always go through... I've requested more vote kicks on tanks than any other role by FAR. I'll also generally click No to vote kicks for other roles except for AFKers or suiciders. Or dps who pull a boss, die, and immediately ask for a battle rez.

    1. I have one hilarious tank story (well, I think it's hilarious). Had the worst Lei Shen group I've had in a while this weekend, I was on my hunter... first attempt was a mess, at least one tank was new and wasn't taunting so the other tank kept dying. Second attempt was a lot better, almost got a kill, 0.6% wipe due to too many folks getting stuck in a late whip... happens. Move on, guaranteed 3-shot, of course.


      Next attempt didn't get past the 2nd transition, add spawns were the issue (spreading out is HARD!).

      Next attempt didn't even GET to the 2nd transition... even more adds spawning (and getting HARDER!).

      People started dropping at that point and the "leader", one of the tanks, ignored all the requests to explain to the new folks who goes where (he'd done it originally) and pulled... none of the healers were ready so he died, then he dropped.

      New tank comes in, actually sets the groups, actually uses the pull countdown, everything's going fine, people are actually spread out (!), healers are all on the border between zones ready for the tank to move to the second zone... and the new tank goes the other way, counter-clockwise, running completely out of healing range... dies. "FFS healers", drops group. Side note - has any group, ever, gone CCW off the original pull? Every group I've had in there, ever, has gone CW. I've had group colour assignements go CCW, but not boss movement by the tanks. But anyway.

      About a 20m wait for a replacement tank, a few others leave. Group fills, again nobody sets assignments, new tank just pulls... and somehow we get a kill with about half of us alive at the end.

      That's the first Lei Shen group I've had that has actually devolved from a very late wipe on an early attempt... it seemed so promising at first. :)

    2. Be taunt at 4 is hard man... really really hard. I just can't take the pressure any more.

      /end sarcasm

      I know what you mean. Tanking is about as easy as it can get in the LFR if you have someone that works with you. But people refuse to communicate or even worse, don't do it just to screw with you.

      I can see what you mean when you say it is easier on them because people will not notice it. Sure you and I might because it seems we both know what is required of them, but most have no clue. I say it is harder on them only because of the people they need to deal with. And lets not even get into the gogogo crowd or I might have to delete my own post because of too much cursing.

      I too click no to vote kicks unless I think there is a valid reason. AFK, refusing to take rez, things like that, no problem clicking it ASAP. For bad performance I think very hard about it before I consider pressing yes. If I press yes to a bad performance vote to kick, it was deserving. At least I would like to think so.

      Ever saw a ret paladin do 900 DPS? Yes, alive the entire fight. Moving around in melee the entire fight. Only 900 DPS. I said yes when the vote came up.

    3. I have ran into a few of those impatient tanks. The gods gift to the world thinking ones. Oddly enough, they are usually the worst ones. The really good ones that know they are good will give people time, tell them huge pull coming, let people catch up, and basally do the job of 2 all by themselves.

      That is an odd story, they usually get better, not worse, but I blame that tank you mentioned from his pull when I want ad screw everyone attitude.

  5. I'm going to disagree, I honestly think that we the player base have more to answer to than blizzard on the state of the community. The cluster fuck in looking to raid maybe isn’t the looking for raid we want right now but it’s defiantly the one we deserve. I do however think Looking for raid can be fixed but it can only be fixed by us the players. We have to lead by example we have to show good sportsmanship and we have to be team players, people will follow suit if they have a good player to follow. I was going to do my standard be the change you want post but it occurred to me that there is a fundamental problem with looking for raid and it’s not the trolls or the tanks or healers that DPS. These are all just symptoms of Looking for raids real problem. Looking for raid is missing the most important role in a raid. It’s missing the LEADER role. Every raid needs a leader someone who you follow who you listen to, you don’t raid by committee. That’s why you and I have fundamentally different Looking for raid experiences. For the last couple of months I’ve been checking the leader roll for LFR and I haven’t once not gotten it on zone in (I’m not sure if they have some secret mechanic that prioritizes you if you have more successful raids completed as leader but they should) and it’s made a world of difference for my raids. I typically greet everyone, ask who’s new as we move to the first boss, One thing that I’ve been doing is saying they can whisper me if they aren’t comfortable saying they are new in raid usually I’ll get 5 or so I’m new or first time in this roll then I can tailor the instructions as needed by that. Last night I had two new tanks for Lei Shen (lucky me) we got thru it in 3 wipes one of them being at 2% there were some new people that freaked out on the last phase. We did all 3 boss’s less than an hour. Anyways I’m getting away from my topic and that’s leadership is the main problem when you don’t have a leader to listen to you troll, when you don’t have a leader to tell you the strats you stand in the fire, when you don’t have a leader to take control you fail. Now since there’s no leader class I’m not sure how to fix Looking for raid besides urging everyone with a shred of leadership skill to step up take control and make the game a better place. (it would be a great topic for a blogger I’m sure)

    1. I find that having 2 experienced (or at least not clueless) tanks generally leads to a relatively smooth run, all other things being equal.

      The simple answer is to only allow players experienced with a fight to queue as a tank for it. Since achievements are account-wide, it'd be trivial to check if someone has done particular fights on any toon before re-enabling the tank checkbox for LFR.

    2. Unfortunately Tiggi, you are an exception and not the rule.

      If I knew I could be in your LFR, I would be more comfortable and probably start to do LFR's.

      As it is, my luck in finding someone like you to LFR with, is practically nill.

      stay frosty...

    3. We had two completely clueless tanks last night never seen the fights before never even been in the 4th part of the instance. It just took a little kindness and patience and I got us thru it. They probably will que up as tanks again now and be much more confident and do a better job.

      Roo- I should sell LFR runs lol I'd be a rich man if I charged a nickle a person I think!

    4. I like the idea of us making it better. But one person an ruin the attempts of a dozen people trying to do the right thing. Unless blizzard not only allows us to report them for their actions but they actually do something about them, as in banning them, at least from using the LF* system for a month, there is nothing the community can do.

      It takes one asshat to ruin 24 people working together. The community has the ability to be better, I agree, but we need blizzard to back us up. Otherwise what happens when we tell that one person to chill out or we will report them, they will say, "so what" and keep doing it. We, the players, can only do so much.

      I am glad to hear you do that and I applaud you for it. I do it, but only as a last resort when no one else will speak up. Otherwise I am content to sit back and kill stuff.

      While I do not mind helping others I do not take the approach that it is my job to do so. I did not come in expecting to have my hand held and I don't believe anyone should. Again, I will help if asked, but I've tried the proactive approach many times and it just does not work*.

      * on my hunter.

      Now, with that said, if I am on one of my female characters and I start to take the leadership role, amazingly, everyone listens to me and all goes well.

      Now that is something I would love to see someone write about.

    5. I feel you've set up a straw man argument here. There is absolutely something 24 other people in lfr can do against one ass hat boot um. You've already written off even trying. Look at the Data from riot Bans do not work. There needs to be something else something that rewards good leadership that's something blizzard can help with and should.

      "I don't mind helping others but its not my job" Who's job is it? Should blizzard have a DM run in every LFR to help people? No its OUR job to help our fellow players and until we embrace that job as a community your going to get shit LFR's now can blizzard make that job easier and better absolutely and they should much like riot is doing in LoL. have you seen the riot panel from pax its super interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5yKdpR0kU its Well worth the hour but you could skip the questions at the end.

    6. It is the players job to teach themselves. I do not go into something having no clue. I am no one special. If I can take 3 minutes out of my day to read basic strategy anyone can.

      I know that might be the wrong way to think about it but it is true. I am not a great player, but I can do the very least I am capable of doing and go into content having a clue. I play for fun, winning is fun, so I prepare to win. I don't see anything wrong with that approach honestly.

      As for being a strawman argument I don't believe that is true. I've seen countless good players trying to be helpful run off the game, and out of the game, by the bad players. It is not me just saying people standing up against the bad players won't work for the sake of argument, it is me knowing it does not always work. Sometimes yes, not always.

      For anything of the sort to work it needs to be backed up by the game. I have read a little on what LoL is doing to combat their toxic community issues and I think it is great. But that only supports my point, that blizzard CAN do something and them supporting the community can combat it.

      Without blizzard taking some action, be it bans or a community judgement panel or anything, we are all alone against a rude, disrespectful, insulting, rude, uneducated, and otherwise undesirable player base.

      Again, I give you credit for trying to take the lead and you seem to have gotten lucky with groups that are willing to learn and not be jerks but that is not the rule. It is the exception.

      Give the good people the tools to combat the bad ones and it can work. Without blizzard backing us up we are already defeated.

      Just look at that line in that video you linked. Someone treats someone with toxic behavior and then someone else that is not normal like that now begins to exhibit toxic behavior.

      That is the stage WoW is in right now. It is just spreading and getting worse.

    7. Look your idea here is to give up its already lost. I'm proving every week that that isn't the case. Give up if you want but if you do IMO you don't have the right to complain about it. (IE not voting and complaining about the consequences of an election) If you don't like it DO something about it. If you give up the ass hats have already won. I refuse to do that. I refuse to let the jerks win! Stand strong lead by example. What's the alternative sitting in que for an hour and a half to get a group with no leadership that then takes 3 hours to clear it? alternatively whats the worst that can happen some one says something mean in raid chat? Every Time I get a thank you or a that was awesome I tell them one thing Pay it forward. That is the mentality we need.

    8. Tiggi I used to agree with you. As a tank I have the same ability to mark and that even if I don't get leader. I'm also used to raid leading as I do it for my normal raid team. I've explained fights and got nothing but hell for it. I'm sure that it helps someone but they aren't the ones that speak up. No it's all "it's only LFR just go already" and that is the politest response I've got and about the only one without profanity.

      I tried restricting explaining to bosses where I know people have trouble like Lei Shen. I did color marks, I organised the raid panel so there was a healer in each group and then assigned groups. I even worked out a bullet point explanation pre-raid so I would be succinct and clear. I pull and we wipe as half the raid weren't paying attention, I get a "lol tactics?" from someone who was here the first time. I repeat myself and again no difference. Again and again this happens, Now the wipe is my fault as I said we could use hero twice but with the determination buff it wasn't available at the end.

      So I applaud your stance but I'm just too jaded. I don't ever queue for LFR now, even though I need to, as it's not worth the headache. Whatever I do I just get abuse and I don't deserve it honestly. So taking the lead does not always work.

    9. @ Tiggi

      Just because it works for you does not mean it works for everyone. That is thinking with a closed mind. "everyone has the exact same experiences as me". Sorry, that is not how the world works. Never has, never will.

      No biggie, we all get caught thinking in our own little world from time to time, I know I do too. But your experiences are not the standard most people experience. Trust me.

      What I do I believe in doing it the right way. I do not waste my time and effort with the asshats. I will however lead any group that wants to be lead and I have done so many times.

      You can keep doing what you are doing and I can keep doing what I am doing. I assure you at the end of the day we will both be happy with how we handled it. There is no right or wrong.

      You might confront the asshat, or feed the troll as some call it, I completely ignore them. I personally believe my approach works better. If you ignore the attention whore they go away, not always, but most times.

      I support the "play it forward" mentality. Even made a post about it some time ago. Lead by example. And I do it every single chance I get.

      The difference is, I will not waste my time on a group that is not worth wasting it on. Vote kick for the asshat doesn't go through? Don't expect me to help you.

      If people want help, they need to help themselves first. If they are not willing to make the first step I am not going to play pied piper and lead them. They need to show they want to do something.

      If I see someone ask a question, I answer, they want to know, they deserve my time. If they do not ask, they either know, pretend like they know, or don't care, and in all three cases, me typing out what to do it wasting my time. I am not a fan of wasting my time.

    10. @ Taitrina

      You seem to get the average group. There are always people like that. That boss is the only one I actively lead on as well. I knew it needs it, even from people that know the fight. People need to know where to go, so I give them a place to go to. There are always asshats like you mentioned. Funny part is they can wipe over and over again and still think they do not need to know what to do.

      @ Tiggi

      Read what Taitrina wrote. That is how most groups go. Not the way you describe. Unless you are super lucky like this one guy in my guild who always seems to have fantastic runs. I hate him. lol

    11. Sure, it's possible to get through a run with 2 clueless tanks, but the problem is that the tank role is the least obvious to other roles... so 2 clueless tanks are relying on someone IN ANOTHER ROLE to tell them how to do THEIRS. At least for dps and healers, there will be at least a few who know what to do and can instruct the others, even on the fly ("yo, other healers, dispel the boss") for mechanics that may not be obvious, especially if they aren't running DBM.

      Fact is, while I can generally tell you when tanks are doing something WRONG, I couldn't just queue up as a tank right now and expect to tank successfully, so I definitely can't explain how to do it to someone who doesn't already know. But at least I'd know positioning and how the fight generally works, the rest of it can usually be figured out as you go.

      I just think tanks queuing without a clue are the definition of selfish... taking advantage of the short queue time while significantly inconveniencing 23 or 24 other people.

    12. As for the "won't work for everyone" discussion, I tend to agree with that... some people are better built for diplomacy and leadership than others are, that combination of character traits should make it relatively trivial to herd a couple of dozen unruly cats. Not everyone is wired that way.

      However, anyone who IS wired that way either needs to step up and do something about it, or shrug and acknowledge that they're getting the groups that they deserve. There isn't much grey area between the two, I strongly subscribe to the "you only get to complain about politicians if you voted" argument. You can't be a passive participant in toxic behaviour without also passively accepting it at the same time.

    13. I never said you don't ignore the troll often times that’s the best way to deal with them. If someone says GO it’s just looking for raid. I either just ignore them or say something "okay it looks like everyone knows the fight let’s do it" that usually works really well if no one has spoken up and said they are new. @grumpy I'm not talking about confronting ass hats but I am talking about teaching and leading the other 98% of people that do want to learn. You say yourself LFR isn't for the people that research but here you are stamping your foot at that fact and demanding that they research a fight... Which is it? I agree with you LFR isn't for the people that know what they are doing therefore as someone that knows what I'm doing I should pass that on. The skill to handle people isn't some magical gene that you are born with it takes determination, time, and skill to developed but people never will if we tell them well this is the best it gets sorry folks nothing you can do about it! Will this work in Every LFR? Probably not will it help in most? Most definitely!

    14. Teaching and leading are fine. And that is where we agree. We just go different ways because you are talking about a good group that lets you teach and I am talking about a bad group that don't.

      "who cares it is only the LFR just pull"
      "who needs a strat this has been out for months"
      "who cares, if they don't know let them die"

      Things like that are what you get when you try to teach people. I am not a 13 year old. I do not talk to people like that and I do not expect anyone to talk to anyone else in front of my like that. It is downright disrespectful.

      The problem is that once someone acts like that it brings out others. It is just like trade chat. Another place i never talk.

      If someone asks a question in trade, I whisper them the answer. I will always answer everyone if I know the answer and I also always give them one piece of advice I hope they take with them their entire gaming life.

      Never ask a question in trade and never believe anything anyone says in trade. It is filled with trolls. If you have any questions just shoot me a whisper or drop me an in game mail. Have a great day.

      Now that... helps people.

    15. @ Second anon.

      Not to go off topic really, but I believe the exact opposite is true.

      If you vote, you have no reason to complain. That means you support the system and agreed to the rules that system runs on and the results of being part of that system are because you agreed to it. So you have absolutely no right to complain.

      However, if you do not vote that means you do not support the system so you have every right to complain as it is not your system and you have the right to disagree with it.

      If there were ever a better reason to complain I've not heard one yet.

      Complaining about something you have no control over is the best reason to complain.

    16. @ anon 1

      I agree that tanks entering the queue not knowing is bad and many do just for the queue time. The role, and the queue time, come at a price that you should know your role.

      The whole "does not have DBMs" is another issue all together. Seriously, if you want to enter a raid it should be the first thing you download. Even in the LFR. It should be required.

      "we do not detect the presence of a boss mod addon, you can not queue for this raid"

      That would be nice and oddly enough, it would help a ton even in LFR, even more so there actually as people are less likely to enter it knowing the fights before hand.

      Even for a tank it tells you everything you need to know. "your partner has 2 stacks" oh, if it is telling me he has two stacks it must mean I should taunt.

  6. So much /agree on the healer part seeing a bad tank. I was doing a 5-man only and looking at this tank asking myself why isn't he moving, why isn't he interrupting, why isn't he using cooldowns, why isn't he using seal of insight. Why are the dpses standing in so much bad, why aren't they interrupting either. Why is the only one interrupting that one hunter with a 24s cooldown. Why. I *rage* as a healer. I will never be a healer. I don't know how you do it without wanting to kill everything... How *do* you do it?

    1. I don't mind being a healer in randoms, even more so if I am over geared because I can handle most of that as long as they do not pull the whole instance AND be that bad.

      As a shaman I can CC and interrupt, which handles that, and I do it, often.

      As a disc priest I can DPS and heal at the same time and usually top the meters doing damage. So that helps in getting the mobs down.

      Perhaps one of the reasons I do not druid heal or paladin heal is because I never feel as much in control on them.

      It is a good question to ponder for me at least.

  7. sorry, I have to start first with "DPS role is the hardest" .... quoting a nice blogger from a few months ago :P

    IMHO you are spot on with regards to tanks. For me the main problem that prevents queuing as tank in LFR is ... I'm expected to PREPARE and to know the fight in advance. And I simply do not have time and energy to do it to my own satisfaction. Queuing as tank or healer in LFR is work compared to going as DPS. And I have enough work to do during day.

    There is also the social aspect. During LK (and all the time from BC) you could tell from chat there is a human on the other side, and you could tell your future group/raid leader "I can do A and B, but have not done C".

    With LFD and LFR this social aspect is gone. So IMHO the current LFR disaster is completely Blizz fault. If you automatically create groups, you have to make the content so easy even a bunch of socially/tactically challenged players can complete it in auto mode.

    One should think the LFD roller coaster of early Cata would have told them everything necessary (GC's statement "heroic dungeons should be difficult" quickly followed by nerfing the dungeons).

    But learning is hard, probably the WoW developer teams needs to wipe a few more times first :P

    Rauxis, chosen of CAT

    1. DPS is the hardest role. When getting maximum potential out of it. A tank is judged by living, a healer is judged by keeping people living, and a damage dealer is judged by how much damage they do. As their job is not judged by a simple success or failure but by a number, it is without a doubt the hardest role.

      With that said...

      Tanking is hard in a different way. It is hard having to know everything before hand when others can wing it. It is hard being expected to be the leader. It is hard that you have to communicate when others can get away with not doing so. Do you think a damage dealer communicates with other damage dealers? Not in random content.

      You are on target with the LFRs, they should be able to be completed on auto mode.

      Social aspect is a lost part of the game. Blizzard is trying to remove the natural development with it and tried to replace it with automated social element. That is not working apparently.

  8. @TheGrumpyElf

    I'd say that those who were doing LFR for raid tanking gear will do it as dps instead, decreasing the supply of LFR tanks. This late in the expansion, that might be mostly alts though, so it might not have a noticeable impact. Or maybe those who tank LFR just love tanking so much that they are willing to bear the brunt of LFR comments.

    In short, I can only guess.


    "[the horrible Looking for Raid experience is] defiantly [sic] the one we deserve. I do however think Looking for raid can be fixed but it can only be fixed by us the players."

    Who do you mean, 'we', kemosabe?

    1. It would suck to lose more capable tanks. Oddly enough however, there are a few people that love tanking them. Just not enough.

      Not sure what would make it easier for them. But I think the one tank suggestion is a start.

  9. Katzbalger-Arthas (US)May 26, 2013 at 2:22 AM

    Wait, tanks are actually needed in LFR now?! Omg, I might actually queue on my war as tank....I think part of the problem is that at the start, tanks were having insanely long queues....so many of them switched to doing lfr as dps instead. Especially people who only play tanks! I know a couple of guys who've done nothig but tank in most content since LFD/LFR and the whining over the queue times was absurd. I guess when you're used to instant queues having to wait is a shock, we dps players are cynical enough by now to expect the queue to take longer than the content.

    Your post has got 3 tanks back into it (well, once I get the new achievements mostly done on my hunter) at least, I hadn't bothered because it was just too much time sitting around to do on those alts.

    1. Needed? That is an understatement.

      Remember waiting an hour for a healer? Now it is wait 2 for a tank. One of the ones I was in had a healer say, I can't believe I waited an hour and three minutes as a healer.

      I know what you mean. I only tank with another person but even that, when we would queue up together, it would take 2 hours. Now, if he had not quit, we would have instant queue. I can't tell you the number of times while assembling this weekend I saw full groups that just needed tanks.

      Sad part is, a lot of people are like him, and have quit. And now with loot choice, you can choose tank gear while DPSing, it could mean less tanks.

      Lucky for me the only tanks I am currently using, monk, druid and DK, I tank in DPS gear just fine.

  10. God there is so much right about these observations. First I will preface this by saying coming out of cata I was a main tank who switched to rdps due to needs and a guild switch. So tanking in itself I am quite familiar with on the heroic difficulties. Fine. I also do not learn well through videos which is me. And I tend to read as opposed to watch then do. But my first ToT on a fresh 90 tank not a week since the toon dinged proved your points

    Was 480 and a pally not my main raid tank from cata but I like the rotation better than present DK. All the raids I whispered my fellow tank and told him first time tanking openly. And we cleared with maybe one wipe and me dying 2 times in 9 bosses. That was great for an under geared tank and yes I consider 480 under geared for these. Still I got gear as I went and that became less of a problem every queue.

    I get to pinnacle and the other tanks and I mean plural refuse to answer me or advise me so I go to old habits taunt when other tank is getting heavy damage and has a debuff let agro drop when the same is true for me. The other tank quit once on each of the first 2 bosses and 2 on the last before a dps actually whispered me with you're new aren't you. He then explained the mechanics as a second tank arrived and we cleared on the 4th pull all of which could have been avoided if people had actually talked and answered my questions. I thanked the Dps and told him he was more help than anyone of the prior tanks who were all too happy to brag that they can solo this but when asked for instruction gave nothing.

    1. It seems that some people, most even, forget that a quick 1 line explanation is all that is needed. Taunt on 3. Something even like that really helps.

      When I attempted to tank alone I would never be able to get people to talk to me. I'll take boss first. No response. Do you want adds? No response. Anything I say. No response. I wonder sometimes if they speak a different language or something.

      I won't take without a set partner to do so with. It is just not worth the aggravation.

    2. You are very right there and I wonder how many in any lfr are esl but now I am comfortable tanking these slowing my rotation when the other tank refuses to taunt or is under my gear level and push coming to shove using a bubble to drop agro on the boss when I need to. But it is bad and one of my first questions after a tanking issue to the tanks as my dps is are you two talking this out before you pull?

    3. Sadly the answer is usually no.

      A friend who tanks them solo said to me the best way to get a response is to ask in raid not in whisper. So people see you asking and the other tank is now put in the position of "be the baddie" or answer you.

      Kind of tricky but it might work. I have not tanked solo since he suggested it so I can not try.

      I also hate the DPS that love to pull. Not like it is as much of an issue as it used to be. I started tanking back when "count to five to stay alive" was still a common thing to say. Even if times have changed I still subscribe to that.

      My main is a hunter, I have MD, and I still wait for the tank to round things up. I like to think of it as being a good player. It shouldn't be that way, it should be standard.

      Also the people that rip aggro off a new 480 geared tank and start complaining need to go back to DPS 101 school. You work within the tanks range. If you can safely pull 100K without the tank losing aggro it is fine, but if anything over that means you pull aggro, throttle down. It isn't the tank that is bad it is the damage dealer that does not know his role and how to play it. Too bad most people will just side with the damage dealer.

      That is surely one of the reasons you do not see new tanks. There is no chance to learn. Even more so now when people are well geared if you are just starting up. I do not care how good of a tank you are, if you are a fresh tank in 480 gear and some fire mage with a lucky crit streak on the pull in half heroic gear starts to pull his 600K+ you are not holding aggro and it has nothing to do with your tanking ability. It is just a matter of hope your taunt is off cooldown and you can time it to get to the top of the aggro list just as his burst is ending so he does not pass you back up instantly.

      It makes it even harder for new people to break into tanking.

      Sorry for rambling.

    4. That is funny you almost perfectly described my Ranged dps except I am frost and regularly out dps ppl 20 or so ilvls above my 510 ish current gear. One of my guild duties is taking new raid into heroics and seeing how their agro management is (I know how to drop my threat and can take most heroic bosses on me If needed but the goal is the tank should be able to take agro back eventually which is the mark used.) But even then I am not going all out with 500k dps spikes on bosses and not using major dps cds. But most people don't know their limits.

      Our progression I have seen exactly what you are talking about after tank throw on boss 1 I was second on the table and after getting one shotted started scaling down as tank throw began to cast so that the off tank could more easily grab any threat I had processed. Most DPS just don't do that a lot don't watch threat at all where as I keep omen up at all times having learned in wrath Mages are horrible agro magnets who can be a tanks worst nightmare if they are not careful and monitoring their casting.

      For me as dps agromanagement is a habit now on any toon and I will back off during motion heavy mechanics or places where tank swaps are inevitable and must be done quickly. That is just playing smart in my mind.

    5. That is something that people in the LFR never take into consideration. They just say bad tank. While sometimes it can be a bad tank it isn't always.

      Like when I tank I always taunt shortly after the pull when I come close to losing something, it boosts me enough 99% of the time. By then I relock my lead and the vengeance is kicking in so it is no issue. But still, I believe it is the damage dealers job to work within the powers of the tank. The only time a tank really "needs" to do that is when you are racing some serious enrage timers which I have not seen in a long time. At least not in normal content.

    6. Last time I saw normal enrage hit was at the beginning of mop on Elegon. But that was a known point of contention in the design with a mechanic heavy dps check essentially. That sorted itself out by 5.1 and has not been an issue since.

    7. I love fights like that, the hard DPS check.

      Of course, as I think I mentioned, my group is insane when it comes to DPS, so perhaps that is why I love fights like that. They are easy. ;)

      It took us one night to down elegon. Maybe 6 attempts. My group is great with DPS checks, not so much with dancing however, that is why it took us 5 weeks to down horridon.

    8. I loved elegon as well it was a decently tough fight with out being too much and a breath of fresh air for our rdps heavy raid team. The pug that struggled with it was mdps heavy 3 melee 4 with the pally heals going ret and 2 ranged me and a lock which made it considerably tougher due to the floor mechanic and need to drop stacks. One pull looked like a kindergarden fire drill with mdps all running out at the same time to try and drop his debuff. It was pretty bad.

      Of course boss 1 of HoF was a rude surprise for all casters including our shammy healer who is normally top in healing but was behind the pally tank due to the inability to cast imposed by a number of his mechanics. Those sorts frustrate me as they are almost forcing classes out of raid teams. To my experience ToT is not like this on normal or even heroic which we are slowly progressing towards and there is ample channeling time for both heals and dps on all encounters to perform their role and conform to the mechanics.

    9. Yeah, that was a melee nightmare. At least as a tank I had the time to go out and still be doing my job, they didn't. lol

      ToT has been very unfriendly to my raid group because we have 3 shaman healers. Just imagine the nightmare horridon was for us until we figured out how to make it work? No really. Imagine it and then cry with me, please. ToT is more bring the class and less not bring the player.

      Horridon, all I kept saying was, this would be so much easier if we had more healer diversity. Tortos, all I kept saying was, this would be so much easier if we had more healer diversity.

      You get the idea. I really hate, with all feeling behind the word, hate the design of bring the class that ToT feels, or this expansion as a whole feels. I would so much rather the raids be designed around bring the player. If you three best healers are shaman, every fight should be healable by shaman just as easily as they would by other classes. Just my opinion of course.

    10. I believe your opinion there is very valid and if a class can fill a role it should be competitive in the raid mechanics no exception. Shamans and holy priests both got hosed in mop and just can't compete with other healers in raid content. Strangely Shamans seem to excel in challenge modes where they can still stand at least for long enough to heal every one up to where the bosses don't one shot them then move for the bad. Holy priests just don't have the numbers now and are pretty much pointless In raid content. Tanks are a little better balanced though warriors and druids seem to be squishier than pallies monks and dks but not unsurmountably so good healers can make them work.

      Dps is always this way one spec out shines the others. But in certain classes they have become more balanced. Sure fire mages have top potential but it needs a crit and is still swingy. Arcane can do awesome numbers but lacks mobility which in this teir is a killer. Frost is less damage potential but can do something even if forced to continually strife a boss or be running from the bad a boss drops every where. So in practice having been in 10 mans with all 3 specs the dps comes out pretty close in the end maybe a 2k ish difference unless gear levels are really disproportionate or play skill is superior or lacking.

      Why they could not do this across the board is beyond me there but it makes playing this spec or that class pointless inspite of skill.

      In my opinion bliz is far too quick to nerf classes because some pvper whines about it. That could be solved by boosting the other classes just as easily or simply have the problem ability diminish against players ie 10% less damage against player or duration 1 sec less on them etc. What is a pvp op is something pve players may be relying on for raiding heroics. Given my experience across servers pvp and pve I would say pve players slightly out number pvpers by probably a 6:4 ratio not that pve players don't dabble in pvp or vis versa but most ppl have their main stay and the other side is just to screw around in down time. Which is not taken into account. Now that said there have been places where pvp specs needed nerfed ret pallys in 4.3 after a glitch and mages. Scorch let arcane spec keep stacks as long as they wanted. Again my opinion there for what it is worth

    11. Oh don't get me started on classes getting nerfs because of PvP. Have you seen the nerf after nerf after nerf hunter have gotten all expansion long because of PvP? Every time I blink something else has been nerfed because some PvPer whined on the forums that a hunter beat him.

      I think the developers should take a time to actually develop and stop listening to people that cry on the forums.

      I believe the last numbers I read where that 30% of the population PvPs at least once a week on some level. (BGs, RBG, Arena, whatever) and only 7% raids at least once a week (LFR, normal and heroic).

      So more, percentage wise PvP. But PvP does have the advantage that it includes all levels. You can PvP at 30, 60 or 90. You can only raid at 90.

      Those numbers might also be skewed because of people like me that might run a battlegound every so often but I am not a PvPer at all. Whereas most PvPers would not run a raid, just for the hell of it.