Thursday, May 23, 2013

Feeling Defeated.

I've been hearing a lot about the death of normal modes and I agree, it seems to be happening.  My progress through ToT has been dismal at best, if you can say that.  Any other raid tier I would be at least 9/12 at this point and my group just can not manage that and while we have multiple people trying to recruit all day every day, on the forums, in trade, through word of mouth, even talking to people we meet in randoms or know from other servers, there are just no decent players out there any more to support a solid raid team on my server.

Odd thing is when taking about my core team, for the most, part these are the same people that did all of cataclysm no problem.  Sure, we never downed nef in normal and were only progressing on rag but those were the only 2 bosses we did not down when current.  As a normal mode casual guild that raids 2 hours that was fine with me.  I always said if we raided more we would have had no problems and I am sure that is the case.

It is all about what you desire in the game.  I only desire to do normals so doing normals is fine for me.  DS was another story, it was a bit too easy and even more so when they started going crazy with the debuff.  But in a way, that too was nice.  It allowed us, a normal mode group to go through heroics like we normally go through normals.  Best of both worlds maybe?

Either way, we are stuck this expansion and it is becoming harder and harder to recruit anyone that is even half way decent and even harder than that to keep anyone motivated.  I am not world beater, not in the slightest and I do not ask others to be so either.  I can do my 90K-170K, depending on the fight, and it is ample to get the job done. 

The idea is finding other people capable of doing that.  It is the not great but not bad either area, the area I would like to call average but sadly it is not the average.  I would be hard pressed to find more than 20 people on my entire server that can do those numbers as a damage dealer and they are all over in different guilds.  I guess in a way I am lucky my guild has five of them.

We tired to run 25 man last night, filled it with all guild members which is a start at least and it was horrible.  Not horrible as in no fun, we did have some fun, but horrible as when looking at it and you ask yourself are these the best available players our server has, it is horrible.

We hit the brick wall many guilds are hitting on our first attempt at 25 man.  Horridon door 2.  Heck, looking at the numbers I am amazed we made it that far.  I think even making it there was a result of the people that have been playing on normal being there.

We had a great balanced healing break down that should have made dispelling easy as cake.  People were dying left and right to magic or poison effects.  I could not figure out for the life of me what was going wrong.  I explained everything as best I could, even for the absolute beginner and people were still not getting it.  I gave assignments for who is on what, what should be tanked where, priority in kills and dispels and everything I could think of.  Maybe it was information over load, but we hit door 2 and we hit the floor. Over and over again.  Face, meet wall, full speed.

Looking at the damage done most of these people I would have not invited to DS after the 30% debuff.  There was a warrior doing 17K.  I know in that chaos doing melee is hard, it is for me too, but 17K is not acceptable in any way shape or form.  The last time doing 17K was good was in ICC.

And the rest of the new raid damage dealers were in the 30 and 40 range.  I know I should have never let a few come along but I wanted to give people a taste, something to help motivate them to do better, to get better, to work on their gear.  Show them that if everyone is capable of stepping it up, this is what we can do.

After the raid I gave my review.  As always I was not overly harsh of anyone.  I knew there were a lot of people here that had not stepped into a raid this expansion, and in a couple of cases, never had been in one.

I mentioned the healers need to be dispelling smarter.  I saw the add tank go down on a few attempts when there was a damage dealer at near full health that was getting their dispel.  Dispel smart.  I told everyone they need to do a little more to help themselves.  Move when there is something bad at your feet.  You can see sand traps falling, move before it starts.  See poison, move, don't just side step it and forget it, it can move back under you, keep an eye on where you are standing.

About the only issue I did not complain about was the tanking but that is because we had our normal tanks.  They have done this, they where not the issue.

We did a few attempts before I started to nit pick, because as anyone that has ever raided both 10 and 25 man will tell you, the feel of 25 man is a bit more organized chaos and for many it was their first experience doing it at that size that was not the LFR.  Then I started taking notes while we attempted to progress past that second door.

Each time I would say things like, we had a few too many people standing in the bad, have to watch yourself when stuff is on the group.  As a casual guild I do not ever single out unless there is a need for it, and at this moment, there is no need for it.  Let the people think for themselves.  Let them learn for themselves.  They should be able to.  That is how I learned, by making mistakes.  That is how any decent player learns, they learn from their mistakes.

Next time I said, I want everyone on the venom priest's when they land.  When that first single one lands it should be dead before the two come afterwards.  If it is not dead before the second two land we might as well give up because we will never make it past that door.  So switch.  Instantly.

A few more attempts equal a few more wipes and each was because of the same thing over again.  I call the raid for the night and in my speech afterwards I tell everyone why we did not do more attempts.

I said to start that for our first time assembling as a team and with many people that have never raided before we should be proud we even got as far as we did.  That as we work together more we will get better but heavy mechanic fights are always harder on new people and we will get it if we keep working on it.

Then I went into the work on it mode.  Besides what I previously mentioned there was the concept that people need to pick up their numbers.  Seriously.  If you can not down the first venom priest before the other two drop we are just going to be banging our head against the wall here.

As much as I stressed smart play, the mechanics, and all that other stuff, it once again came down to what it always seems to come down to.  The damage dealers.

If you do not down that mob fast enough you are extending the time we are at that door which makes it harder on the healers and harder on everyone else as well because we will quickly run out of space.  I mentioned the one attempt, and only attempt, we actually downed the mancer on the second door and closed it.  There were mobs all over the place and there was poison everywhere.  Some people could not make it to the third door because they were basically trapped by poison.  I pointed out that as the perfect example of even if we close the door, if we are not downing things fast enough it is a wipe.

Basic idea is I came out and told the damage dealers.  You need to get better.  You need to do more damage, you need to interrupt more and you need to watch where you stand.  The tanks did okay.  The healers are getting better working as a unit and they will continue to.  But if the damage dealers are not doing their job and getting the mobs down in a timely manner we are all just wasting our time.  Practice attempts will let us all get better at switching and be able to time things better for damage on the mob that needs to go down, but if people are not doing enough, it will be impossible.

I said, next week I expect to see everyone with some new gear.  Or upgraded gear.  I expect them to spend some time on the dummy to work their rotation and get better at it.  If they need gems, enchants or advice, come to me, I can give them everything they need.  But they need to return the favor and get better.

I did not call anyone out by name, I did not call anyone bad, I even said we did awesome for out first time in there as a 25 man.  I also told them how to fix the problem we had.

And when all was said and done, a series of /gquits came.  WTF?

Did asking you to do your job correctly offend you?  Did asking you to pull your weight offend you?

It is the LFR mentality.  Everything thinks they should just be able to walk in and things should fall over dead.  They don't think wiping in normals should ever happen.  Well guess what, I don't think wiping in normals should ever happen either, but if you play badly you will wipe.  Not hard to understand. 

Sad part is, the people that left were the ones I saw with potential.  Those middle of the pack ones.  The ones doing 70K-80K, the ones that had a few interrupts, the ones that would have made it happen.  They were the ones we could have built on and weeded up the 17K warrior and others with low numbers, low skill and low desire.  And...

Giving this its own line because it deserves it.

The ones that left were the ones who normal mode content was made for.  Some skill and some ability but not all that great.

Do you know why they left?  Because they did not want to be stuck wiping in normals, they should be in heroics.

See, that is the LFR mentality.  People only wipe in heroics.  If you wipe in a normal you suck and I am better than you.  Welcome to the new world where everyone is a heroic raider, even if they can only pull 70K in mostly 522 gear.  People.  You are a normal mode player.  That is it, nothing more.  If anything, you are not even good enough for most normal modes.  I wanted to say that, I really did.  But they wanted to move up to heroics because normals were beneath them.

Excuse me?  Heroics?  They were good enough for normals maybe, up and coming players, sure, but they would not even get a spot on a 10 man normal team unless there were just starting.  And that is exactly what this 25 man is doing, just starting.  Be happy with it.

The people doing sub 30K are all excited to do it again next week.  But they are not good, and I don't want them back until they can start getting better.  And not to be disrespectful but if you are rocking an item level over 480 and still only doing 30K, raiding is not for you.  That is not an insult at all, that is just stating a clear fact.

The people that seemed to always stand in the bad are all excited to do it again next week.  But they are not good.  The easiest part of that fight is moving from the bad and if you can not handle that you do not even deserve to be in a raid.  Yes, I understand that for some it is a computer issue and with your settings you can not see the bad on the ground.  Well that means one of two things if you want to be a raider.  Download an addon like GTFO that will yell are you, or get a new computer.  Otherwise, you are not a raider, sorry.

The one healer that kept saying that people should come to him if they need heals because he doesn't want to run around like a chicken with his head cut off can't wait until next week either because he wants to raid again.  Why couldn't he leave, I don't want or need anyone with that attitude in my raids.  If you can't do your job, get better, this is a casual guild, you have time to learn because we do not demand perfection from the start.  You don't tell people to come to you for a heal.  Position yourself better so you can heal and work with the other healers to make a grid.  Don't just find your happy place and stand there.

A 25 man has a lot of moving parts and it seems the only parts that want to stay are the people from the 10s on alts, and the bad players.  Some bad players can get better, but we need those middle of the road players, the ones that are decent and have the chance at getting better with time and gear and they are the ones that are leaving because they want heroic progression.

I know it is only one week, but I really can not play like this any more.  I can not play with the only people happy to raid and willing to wipe being the bad players.  The people that could be great wanting more than their abilities allow them and the few good players I have getting frustrated by doing the same thing over and over again.

It could just be that fight.  It is a bitch to say the least, but we did okay getting there our first day as a 25 and as far as I am concerned, it should be our last day as a 25, for now at least.

I feel defeated.  The fights are just too hard for the player base I have available to me.  I can not do it with the people that are on my server.  And I do not want to teach a whole crew of people all over again.  I am tired.  I am beaten.  I do not have the energy for that any more.

I would like to just find a group of people that, even if not great, all know how to play their class, all look up the fights on their own, and can all listen to instructions.  I can deal with wiping with a group like that.  I can't deal with wiping with a group like I had.  Not any more.  I am defeated.

And that is why normal modes are dying.  Yes, I agree, normal modes are dead.  If all the recruiting we could do resulted in this being the best our server had to offer that was available I might as well just quit.

I am feeling defeated and I definitely do not have the energy in me any more to be a raid leader and have to teach this new LFR generation of players how to raid after they have been tainted beyond my repair.

I've a decision to make if 25s are to be in my future.  Quit raiding all together.  Find another raid team on another server where I can just sit back and be a rank and file hunter doing my pew pew and collecting my loot and letting others worry about finding capable fill ins and letting someone else teach them.  Or just quit the game all together.

I am feeling defeated.  I just want to raid and I can't even do the thing I want to do to a level of reasonable success because the people are incapable of doing it.   It feels as if I am being held captive by the player base and the player base loves torturing me.  They win.  I have been defeated.

I think the content is fine as is. The problem is with the player base.  And I have been defeated by them.


  1. While trying to PUG some people and get a raid established on a less populated server, you're really better off doing it on 10 man. Also becomes much easier to attract people cross server once you have a decent chunk of bosses down on 10 man.


    "Sad part is, the people that left were the ones I saw with potential."

    It sounds like maybe they explicitly said they wanted to be in heroics, but I would personally guess one of two things.

    1, they feel like they've been called bad and painted with the broad strokes you were saying - feeling like "Why are you saying I'm the problem when Bob over there is doing 17k?"

    2, they don't think any major improvement will happen for a long time or they think your perception is skewed. Hell, you said:

    "I even said we did awesome for out first time in there as a 25 man."

    Which to them probably sounded like a load of hogwash and potentially that you were clueless.

    In other words, by trying to not offend the really bad players and avoid calling people out, you might have pissed off the halfway decent players in two different ways.

    1. Unfortunately, I agree with this sentiment. It sounds harsh, but you really do need to call out the people who aren't that good. Not in public, in private is better.

      Also, since you are a good guy, you don't want to have anyone dislike you. The problem is no one is liked by everyone. It's better to have the people you don't want around dislike you and keep the ones you want - what use is not offending the ones who are bad?

      I'd suggest next time saying something like, "We did a reasonable job for a first time group that is just learning to work together. Not good, barely okay in fact, but reasonable given the circumstances. I see a lot of promise though given that we downed the first boss so readily. I'll be giving private feedback to help out each of you if you'd like." Frame feedback - give positive, then the negative, then finish with positive. Psychologically, it works the best with humans.

      I bet you'd receive 0 gquits (or very few).

      Then, in private, reward the middle of the grounders with, "I see a lot of promise in your play, I can give you some specific feedback … I'd like to see you back next week. You needn't worry about the poor performers, I'll be speaking with them and giving them notice to dramatically improve their game. I want to make good progress and I think you do too. I don't want to see someone with your promise leave." Again, frame feedback, as well as tell people exactly what you want, "I want you back", people respond well to being told what to do if its a positive action.

      In private with the low performers be harder, framing isn't necessary, you don't want to blunt this message, "I'm sorry, 17k is unacceptable for someone with your ilvl and time in the game. You need to pick up your game substantially or we have no place on the team. I can help you but you need to do research and practice because you can get better. Think about if you still want to be on the team and can make the commitment and get back to me later this week."

      It's like managing a team at work, you need to give praise, critical feedback, or hard reality checks where necessary. People will respect you for being honest with them rather than empty praise. People who know themselves reasonably well, the middle roaders will appreciate honesty tempered with a bit of sugar. No one useful likes undeserved praise, but when they do something you notice, reward them by calling out specifics. If it's particularly good, call it out in public - even if it's only to note a really good uptick in DPS from week to week.

      The problem with people that aren't good is that they are also not good at many other things, like evaluating their own performance. The need wakeup calls otherwise they'll think they are performing well.

      Imagine how you'd feel if you were on the other side and heard the same feedback you gave, how would that make you feel?

    2. If you really want to continue to raid, I'd suggest you swallow your pride and message the middle of the roaders and tell them, "I made mistakes in my feedback. I didn't give the poor performers harsher feedback and I was too free with my praise. I have many things to learn as well. I know you gquit but I'd like you to return for the raid next week. You were a good solid team player and I'd prefer to not lose that."

      When in doubt, reverse the tables and think about how you'd feel receiving the same feedback. If you need time to think about what to say rather than do it on your feet, do a delaying bit like, "I'd like to give good feedback right now, but I'm not always the best at speaking off the cuff. This is one of those times, if you'd give me a little bit while I look at logs and think things through, I can give a better summary of how we did - the good, the average, and the bad."

      Managing sometimes sounds like manipulating people. It's about achieving goals and helping people be their best. Using psychology to express things in the best way guarantees people hear the praise and can use feedback in the best way. Good communication is a skill and requires knowledge and practice.

    3. I feel like I'm just writing all over Grumpy's blog now (not trying to take over honest) but I just wanted to say thanks. I think part of the problem with something that happened in my raid team was that I was a bit too private about what I said. I didn't like to humiliate people for making mistakes so I didn't say anything publically, I messaged them privately about it. Then others in the group thought nothing was being said about those that they felt were doing bad, and then they got cross and resentful.

      However, some of your phrasing sounds really useful. I'll certainly bear it in mind and maybe I'll be able to keep more of a balance. I can't go back and fix what went wrong, but maybe I can prevent it from happening again perhaps.

    4. The phrasing is important :D

      That's why you need to address their concerns by telling them something is being done. Also, the next week when some of those poor performers don't show up, clueful people will notice. And see that you mean what you say.

      Public humiliation is often counter productive and should be avoided at all costs, its sends the message to everyone that if they start to perform a bit more poorly, have a bad week, or just make a mistake that you have no problem publicly shaming them and making them feel worse when they know they did poorly and are beating themselves up for it.

      It comes across as mean rather than helpful and demoralizes teams. You'll lose moderate players quickly, they'll think, "Well, I don't want that to happen to me and I'm already shaky on performance sometimes and make mistakes, so it is going to happen to me eventually. I should leave now and avoid that."

      They leave dispirited and feeling bad about themselves.

    5. @ Balkoth

      You are quite right. They might have felt as if some of that was addressed at them and being they do not know me well enough they did not come to me to speak to me directly.

      I'll definitely need to think about that the next time I try this again. Thanks for the very sound advice.

      But I still stand by what I said. Even getting there with that group was an good first time out. ;)

      @ Tiessa

      I agree, having the bad people I would rather not return getting offended would not be the loss that having the mid range people getting offended by thinking I mean them.

      I did replace a few people mid run, through whispers. I even let them say they needed to go. No one knew I did that, but I always try to keep any pure criticism like that, even more so if it is really bad, in whispers.

      I will however show light ire in the raid when the mage goes down for the 4th time to something stupid. I call out their name and say, leave them dead. Anyone that ever raided with me knows that is my very polite way of saying if you die that way one more time you are not invited back.

      I think the biggest issue with it was most of theses people did not know me, some not at all.

      You give some sound advice thank you. I handle it, or used to, a lot like you said. It has just been so long since I tried to run a big group it is like I forgot.

      As for if I heard the raid leader say that I would have said, yeah, nice work to start, but we are not moving anywhere with the dead weight. And I would judge my opinion on his or her reply to that.

      No one expected anything to happen on that run. I said at the beginning that we had plenty of people that really shouldn't be there, but we were going to get some practice in as a team. So based on that start, I do believe, honestly and not trying to blow sunshine up their ass, that based on what we had, we did good.

      I really appreciate the feedback, it is what I needed. A wake up call if you will. I've been with the same group for so long I do not need to use those skills that made me a good raid leader before. Being they all know me they all do what I said. No need to play politics so to speak. I have not needed to manipulate in ages. And boy oh boy do you do that a hell of a lot. I just have not had to in so long.

      My people knew that 17K DPS was never stepping into my raid again and I assumed everyone knew that. That, I think, was my biggest error.

    6. You're welcome for the feedback, I've recently discovered your blog and really like it and learn a lot. I thought I'd help out any way I can - good luck, it's not the best situation.

    7. I am glad you like it. Can't see what you can learn from it, because how to be grumpy of course, but I appreciate the words. :)

      I am considering doing some terrace 25s if I can still generate interest for those to get all those behind caught up a little bit. We do not have enough for a ToT 25 and there is no one to replace them. So I think we should get these new players some gear and experience and then really weed out the ones that refuse to learn.

      The one problem is trying to get people to do terrace. Even people in 476 gear think "why should I do that when I can get 522 gear". And they just will not listen when I tell them they are not good enough to be in a ToT yet. It is like saying, get some gear and we will see what you can do is the same as saying your mothers so fat she has her own zip code. They get offended by being told they need to be appropriately geared.

      I think I am just getting too old for all the hand holding. I don't recall it ever being this hard to get people to gear up before expecting to be in the current raid.

    8. I like you, Tiessa. Good advice there, Grumpy, especially the part about trying to reach the people who qguit. Doubly so given your mention of the fact that you realize you acted like this was a run of a bunch of people who knew you, each other, and your management style - which wasn't true.

      "I guess I got that. I found out who the selfish people are that will give up after one night of wiping as well as who I do not want to bring back in."

      Honestly, I'm not sure about that. It's possible, but I'd lead toward thinking that they simply expected months of wiping. If you spend an entire night and can't even make it past door two on Horridon, that's really bad. And these people know it's really bad. And you say publicly that you did great, which makes them think nothing is going to change.

      Also, I doubt those people would have jumped ship if you killed Jin'rokh, Horridon, and Council and then wiped all night on Tortos.

      I admit this whole thing is strange to me, since I have a Horde alt on another server than my main, and I expect to go at least 6 bosses in any PUG I join. It's on Area 52, which is known for having good PUGs, but still...

      "Public humiliation is often counter productive and should be avoided at all costs"

      Tiessa may disagree with me here, but I think it's important to still publicly identify mistakes (which is different from humiliation).

      "Bob, you stood in the fire like an idiot and wiped us, you suck"

      That's bad.

      "Bob, we wiped there since you got killed by the fire, please avoid that."

      That's good. Why?

      1. It helps the rest of the group understand what happened - wiping when you don't know WHY you wiped is extremely frustrating.

      2, It communicates to the group that YOU as the raid leader understand the problen and are watching it.

      What you don't want to communicate is that you simply think things will magically improve if you simply keep wiping - which is occasionally true, but usually you need to work several things out first - like which add to focus, who is interrupt what venom priest, etc.

    9. Oh, and...

      "I think I am just getting too old for all the hand holding. I don't recall it ever being this hard to get people to gear up before expecting to be in the current raid."

      I suspect many people are still in the Cataclysm mindset of "Run dungeons to gear up, you're done." Now they have to deal with a weekly LFR, valor cap for 522 items, and do dailies for coins - it's a lot more work and much slower progress.

    10. @ Balkoth

      I have horde on area 52 as well. Have not played them in years however. Just thought that was funny.

      Pugs on my server can not down the first boss sadly.

      I do, and did there, point out the issues we were having and why we wiped. If someone did not leave group on a charge I said, next time you need to run to a position so his side it to the group so you do not get us all killed. Then in my usual way I added, at least you know for next time. And I went before the pull and reminded everyone. I am against belittling people but I have no issues pointing out the errors.

      Three of the people that quit went to a guild that downed horridon and are now wiping on the 3rd boss. So they got what they wanted.

      My goal is to down horridon, and council, and then wait for them to want to come back and say I have no spots. Sorry.

      Not like it would happen, but it would be poetic justice don't you think?

      It would also not be the first time that has happened. Had two people last expansion that left for a guild that had more progression at the start of DS. We had just started and were 3/8 at the time the other guild was 5/8. I finished DS while the other group was still at 5/8. They asked to come back, I said, no thank you, we are full. Even if we could have used them.

      I like people that are team players. Progression is 2nd to me. Enjoying raiding is #1. I would rather wipe another 2 or 3 weeks on horridon with decent people while trying to get this off the ground, then be with a bunch of people that are going to bitch because we are wiping on horridon.

      I could go back to 10 man and hand pick the best of the best, sure, but I want more. I don't just want to down bosses and that be the be all end all of my game play. I want to have fun with a group of people and defeat challenges. And would there be any bigger challenge than getting past horridon on my horrible server, in 25 man? I think not.

      Admittedly, I did need a little wake up call to make me realize I need to do some things different now that I am not in my comfort zone any more. Thank you, and your advice as well as Tiessa's did not fall on deaf ears at all. It will make me make a few adjustments.

      I would like to see the cataclysm gear model return. Absolutely. Small servers like mine need that. The only way we can get raiders is to let them over gear it, because the skill poll is too small. And that is what they gear model helps.

  2. I feel for you I really do. You know I said that my raid group had fallen apart the other day? Well that was down to what you call the middle of the pack players. They were some of the best players in our group but I think if you put them up against heroic raiders they'd fall short. I don't know that for sure as I've never raided with a heroic raider. Anyway these players wanted more. Our 9/12 progress, a new boss every week, was not enough for them. They said that we were capable of more if we got rid of the dead weight, the people that they felt were beneath their abilities.

    The problem is we're on a very small server just like you. Our comfortable roster that we started with from the merger of 3 guilds got smaller and smaller as people quit raiding, decided the merger wasn't for them and left, or just plain stopped logging in. So we needed everyone we had, there wasn't anyone else we could take, there also isn't really a large pool of potential recruits, certainly very few better than anyone in the guild at that time.

    These players who felt they were better stopped signing, they looked at who else had signed, if they didn't like them then they refused to sign up for a "fail group". The problem is these fail groups were still downing bosses. As I said we were getting a new boss pretty much every week, but we were wiping too much to get there. Sometimes Tortos gave us trouble, other times it was Dorumu, bosses that we'd killed but then had nights of re-progression on I guess. Wiping is a fact of raiding, even the best team in the world will have an off night where things don't go well. It came to a head when I asked why someone had unsigned after I confirmed them and got the "it'll be a waste of my time as we'll just wipe a lot" in response.

    Well these 'superior' players have gone now, they've pretty much all server transferred or otherwise disappeared. We've managed to find people for their spots and I'll admit they aren't as good. It's hard for me personally to go from 9/12 to wiping on Magaera. I think that we should be capable of going past it but the thing is we're rebuilding now. So previous progress all wiped out like it never was.

    Cont ...

    1. ....

      What I'm trying to say, in a very roundabout way, is I feel for you. I'm the raid leader here, people look to me to fix it, but I can talk till I'm blue in the face about moving out of x, using cd's here, dispelling then, but it doesn't make any difference. I can't physically play their character to move them our of the swirling green bad, or off the fire patch, or out of the breath, or to use their personal cd then, or pop a raid one then. All I can do is the best I can with my character and offer suggestions but it's not enough, it's never enough. Then you get the people like the new mage who said "I died because I wasn't dispelled fast enough, I had cinders for 3 seconds" well 3 seconds sounds damn fast dispel to me. Check the logs and problem is after dispelling he didn't move out of the fire patch. He could have ice blocked but he decided he wanted to save it and blast the healers instead which I wasn't having. He didn't like it when I pointed out that saving his cd for the last rampage didn't help him if he wasn't alive in the last rampage to use it, but that's the truth unfortunately. Dead dps do no dps.

      Normals are dying as they are squeezing the casual raider. They are tuned to be more difficult so friends that used to raid together now struggle as some aren't capable of the step up. You then get those that have it go to their head, they get spoiled and decide that they are meant for better, even if they have reached their limit.

      I nearly quit raiding when this happened. I've stuck it out due to obligation. They don't have anyone else willing to lead, or a substitute tank, if I don't show then it doesn't happen. I'm not willing to screw over everyone else by quitting. Though I'm tired too because I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. There is no winning scenario. Too much progress or too little, there's no balance.

      Casual raiding is gone. You can't take people who just want to raid anymore, even though I wish I could only take the enthusiastic ones, I like them and not have to take the assholes who happen to have skills. It's very unfriendly and divisive. Plus if you are on a small server that is shrinking rapidly, then you can't even replace people you lose, you just go down and down rather than up.

      Sorry I wrote a lot but this is a subject that I think about a lot. I wish I had a solution. Hell Grumpy I would raid with you in a heartbeat if I was on a US server. You have the right attitude in my opinion, it's just finding others that think the same way as us that is the tricky part.

    2. The said part is that none of these people were stepping back in progression. We were wiping on horridon and none of them had ever even downed it. They wanted heroic progression and they could not even stay in a group long enough to get the second boss of a raid down? I don't get it.

      We are in the same place. Too bad we are not in the same part of the world or we could help each other. I feel for you as well and like you I am doing it out of a feeling of obligation. I sometimes am left thinking that how much of my own enjoyment am I sacrificing do to it however. I have no issues wiping 100 times. I've done so many times. I just have an issue wiping 100 times and then people saying they deserve better when they are sometimes responsible for the wipe. If you deserve better, be better. I so much want to say that to them sometimes, like your mage.

      I have a story like that mage one. I believe it was rag. I set up a marker where to stack after seeds. Everyone ran to the marker and the fire was under it. I had said before hand if the fire is on the marker move up. But no, what did they do, die. Every last one of them because I said to stack there. Use your heads people. If there is fire at the stack point stack NEAR it, not on it. We got it eventually but a few people, like your mage, just kept dying at the stack point because I told him to go there.

      There is only so much I can do. I can explain the fight as easy as pie. If only everyone did as I said we would one shot every boss. But they don't. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and they don't.

      So your people that want to do heroics, my people that want to do heroics, are in for culture shock if they get a chance. The key to being a really good player is not only to listen but to think. And if they can only do one of them they will never be a really good player.

      And that is partly why casual guilds are dying. Because of people that can't do it want to do it, and people that should be doing it want to do heroic.

  3. ah yes, the Michael D. Brown principle.

    1. Your stay frosty motto seems to be catching on.

      Not sure who Michael D Brown is. Off to google I go.

    2. did you learn what a Michael D. Brown is? Right or wrong, he was the person held responsible for the failed federal relief after Katrina hit in 2005. Just another example of the Peter Principle at work.

      LOL, nice to see others remember the phrase when I forgot it. Had a heck of a migraine, yesterday and last night. Change of weather and allergy season is upon us.

      stay frosty y'all...

    3. Yes I did, I looked it up. I actually feel really bad for the guy.

  4. Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:

    To read this makes me feel a touch of guilt. I wish I was in a position to help but honestly I know I am not. I am not in a position to help from a gear stand point (easily corrected with a bit of effort) nor from a mental stand point (burnout is not so easily changed) and also from a physical stand point (my body is not going to likely improve in health a great deal despite my best efforts).

    I have some vague notions for improvements to the available player base, but I suspect that they are not truely practical solutions, mostly due to the one lockout per week current design.

    With regards to fielding a 25 man guild team, I suspect that it may be beyond our current capability. Most especially with middle of the pack types /gquit because some comments felt like a guilt trip to them, even when not intended as such at all. Such people usually have a unrealistic appreciation for themselves and are not really as good as they think they are even when they are obviously better than the ones who are clearly "baddies."

    I have met and played with folks since the near beginning of WoW, and have observed that frequently many people just simply don't have it in them to give an honest appraisal of the performance they provide. No numbers can show them room for improvement because they are already better than most and therefore they are certain that they know all about the class/spec they play.

    I know for a fact that running into a player who actually is better at the role and listening to and learning from them is hard. Know so because I have been in that actual position. I was one of the better healers around and then we added another priest to the guild who taught me how to be better, yet in the process the only thing that kept me from rage quitting was my responsibilty to the guild as the leader. Even then, I had to sometimes reboot my PC to give me time to get my temper under control rather than lashing out. If I was a regular joe in a guild, odds are at one point or another, rather than do the temper control thing, I would have done the /gquit in rage thing. It would have been so much easier than trying to improve by listening and learning.

    With the recent merger, and the indication at the last officer meeting that many of the new members don't intend to adopt our way of doing things, I suspect very strongly that 10 man raiding is our only real raiding hope. (Yes, I word it as if I were still into raiding, which honestly, part of me is, but not a big enough part to do something about it.) Give the 25 man an honest effort, but don't let the stress of it get to you like this post indicates it might be. It is just a game and stress from it is not warranted.

    To quote Roo... "stay frosty"

    1. I don't think I will push 25s much more, at least not until 5.4 because that raid will be a little easier I believe thanks to the plummeting subscription numbers and that would allow us to fill the spots with a few of those lesser players without actually hurting to much.

      As you have not been around I'll give the brief run down on raiding as it is now. The requirements are no longer that someone have a pulse like it was for some raids. It is no longer that someone does good at their role. It is no longer a DPS check. It is no longer stack up and spread out. It is now everything all rolled into one. LK heroic modes had less to content with that ToT normal modes. Even cata heroics were easier than some of the ToT normal fights. Add that with the instant kill mentality that LFR is teaching new players, that everything falls over, and I am afraid for the future of raiding as a casual guild.

      Even more so when reading the forums and seeing guilds that raid 3 nights a week, 5 hours a night, and they have still not finished normals. We do not raid that much in 2 months. The raids are a touch too hard for the masses it seems.

      We have the people capable of doing it on 10 man. We just not raid enough to get better.

      So change has to come from somewhere and I do not know where that would be.

      Stay frosty ;)

    2. Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:

      I appreciate your update on that. I do care, I do care one helluva lot on the health of the guild. I put so much time and effort into keeping the guild alive and that struggle was because of personal pride to some extent but also because I truly care for the folks who have our guild name floating above their character's head.

      My advice is simple regarding 25 man runs: don't. We as a guild are not ready for it.

      If it is felt that 25s are a necessity, then step back one ilevel and run the previous one as an announced training run. Learning to work together as a team is one heck of a lot more important than banging heads against a brick wall for a drop that never occurs.

      But personally, I would say the "don't" option is a better one.

    3. I actually like the step back idea.

      It would help a lot of those people that need raid experience as they were nerfed 10%. The better players could handle a little more of the heavy lifting. And it could get gear for those people not quite up to snuff.

      Something to consider at least.

  5. I'm going to agree with some of the earlier comments. I believe diplomacy is critical for a RL but there's a limit. The last raid group I left wasn't because of performance issues, it was because they weren't willing to deal with performance issues and, more importantly, weren't willing to enforce minimums or at least noticeable improvement. When I'm one of the higher performing players (happens occasionally), I don't mind that I'm helping to compensate for someone on the lower end of the scale... but it's a pretty quick transition from that to starting to feel responsible for doing it and, worse, guilty if I don't on a particular attempt. I shouldn't feel guilty for "only" doing 50% more than someone else's dps rather than the usual 100%.

    Normal raids, right now, are hard. Simple as that. On many fights, anyone can mess up the attempt at any time in any one of a number of ways. If you're doing 5 things perfectly on a fight there are probably 2 or 3 others you could be doing to make it even smoother and I'm not sure most raiders can comfortably handle 3. Or 2. I've had some damned good attempts on the bosses we're downing, especially lately, but I always feel like I could be doing MORE. When that feeling of failure even in success becomes pervasive, you no longer look forward to raid night. I'm not there yet, but I'm aware that it's out there somewhere.

    In your case, the honest answer seems to be that your group isn't good enough for Horridon right now. That's not where you should be training your players, it's just too advanced.

    It sounds like you got the first boss down so do him every week... he's awesome for gear and make sure undergeared folks have AND USE bonus tokens until they're out of drops from him or have a VP equivalent. 3 tokens will last 3 weeks, that's one day of Island dailies every 10 days. If that's too much, cut 'em loose.

    After that, go back and do earlier content. Terrace is probably the most friendly, quick raid content in MoP right now and still offers pretty good gear. Work in there and use that as a gauge for how players are doing and monitor improvement from attempt to attempt and week to week, focusing on the biggest projects at first. Once you're able to consistently one-shot the first boss, do it on Elite mode, that's a nice step-up in difficulty and dps requirements without being brutally harder.

    Nobody in Terrace-level gear should be doing less than 60-70K on the bosses in there, including Lei Shi (that fight more than any other in there, I think, exposes people who are good button pushers but not good raiders, you'll see the biggest drop from them without much improvement).

    1. Finally, either publicly or privately, you have to be more specific in your criticism. If I had to guess, any decent raiders who left after that run left due to a combination of hopelessness and lack of specific criticism (not to individual people, necessarily, but "I expect all dps to be at 50K or more on the door phases, not including damage on Horridon") that'll let them know that you aren't including them in the criticism. Possibly mention that you might take some specific comments to people offline, whether you do or not...

      Complete side note - how many tanks did you use for Horridon? I've only done 10 (and LFR) but that strikes me as a great fight, especially while learning, to run with 3 or 4 tanks to help wrangle the adds... have 2 or 3 tanks positioned to pick up adds where they drop and keep them separated into smaller add packs so the ground crap will be less concentrated.

      I'm also concerned that there seems to be a noticeable drop in the quality of the raiders the past couple of expansions, too, unrelated to the difficulty of the fights. Back in Wrath or Cat I would have considered myself a, best case, 30%er... top 30% of all raiders. Maybe top 50%. Somewhat above average overall.

      These days, I'm feeling a lot better than that... I'm almost ranking on WoL, something that I wasn't even close to in the past... this week I was over 97% on one fight and 93% on another and I could have done both better.

      I don't think I'm a better raider, either... if anything, I seem to find splitting my focus to be harder than I used to (getting older sucks) and fights require it more than ever. Oh, so I need to stay in melee range of mobs that are scattered around and moving while dodging ground effects, interrupting, avoiding boss cleaves, trying to stay below the tank on threat, clicking orbs when they're in reach... and I've been asked to help out by dispelling myself and others. Sure, why not, my attention is totally on my raid frames &/or Decursive when I'm dodging stuff on the ground. Grumble.

      Either way, I sympathize greatly... someone trying to piece together a 25 ToT run these days is going to have a major task. I understand why Blizz only wanted to allow CRZ for non-current content but I think allowing it for current content is the thing that could SAVE CRZ in the eyes of many who haven't been fans to this point.

    2. That group wasn't good enough to be ON horridon to be honest. I knew that ahead of time. There were at least 8 people I would never raid with in that group. I took them with the knowledge of that and to evaluate them. Everything there was to evaluate them.

      Those people would not be getting invited back. It was not like I was asking people to do progression with them and everyone knew that heading into it. This is why I was surprised by the way some people reacted. It was more of a meet and greet and see what people can do.

      That Lei Shi analogy, I never heard that one but it does make a lot of sense. So you are saying that button mashers will disappear on the meters. That explains a lot. Like why my rogue which I suck at can finish first in the LFR.

      50K? You are being nice. I said I expect 60K-70K minimum from everyone by next week. Not kidding. I'll take 50K from someone that has never seen the fight before because it does take some getting used to.

      2 Tanks, one for horridon and one for adds. As you can guess, horridon tank is a paladin. There were no issues keeping him up at all. A second add tank however does sound like it might really help.

      I feel just like you, I am losing a step yet somehow in the same place I have always been. That is thanks to all the people leaving. There are less raiders out there to chose from.

      You can not raid current content with cross realm teams. That could help but that could also destroy guilds.

      Sorry to sound selfish but if I have the choice to join a full clear on tuesday with a cross realm pug or wipe on horridon again with the "best my server has to offer" I am going for the pug thank you very much.

      If I did that, my guild and their aspirations to raid on any lever are gone.

    3. Yeah, I find Lei Shi to be a great fight to gauge talent since it's such a stupidly awkward fight to do. Sometimes you get 30 seconds on the boss, sometimes it's 3. Add switching, dpsing while running, pulling any targeted AoE out of your bag (god, I hate Hide so much on half my toons... sure, let me just waste all my Death runes smacking Blood Boil ineffectively, why not...). It takes some skill to do appropriate dps on that fight without just AoEing the adds to pad the meter (and if they do, that's a solid warning sign that it's a player you don't want)... timing cooldowns is especially important.

      I specifically mean 50K on the door phases, assuming they're doing it right and not just attacking Horridon... hell, on our first kill I was only at 70K heading out of door 4 and I was #3 (in 10, but still). These days I'm still lucky to do 90K in those phases and I'm ending the fight up close to 180K from the late burn. Your ranged should be able to do more than 50K on those phases so you'll have better numbers overall, but I'd consider 50K to be the min. You could go with 60K but I think your player pool would be a lot smaller at that level.

      It could destroy guilds but isn't that already happening? I used to casually know 5 or 6 raid groups that were running in Wrath... guilds, group of friends (like the run I had at the time), etc. In Cat that dropped to about 4. These days it's close to 0, at least in terms of runs that are actually progressing a bit.

      Sure, you risk that with CRZ, people who ARE raiding on their server will start raiding with another realm but that can already happen for $25... I personally know more people who have xferred realm this expansion to raid than who are current raiding. That isn't an exaggeration... literally, more have left than are still on my server raiding.

      What CRZ would allow is for people on other servers to help out on yours... and while players are likely leaving your server, they aren't likely coming to it. The ONLY way for you to access outside talent is with CRZ current raiding. Hell, I'd raid with you if it means not having to switch servers, my server has issues but it's home for my toons.

      For me, raiding isn't about getting a quick full clear, it's about overcoming challenges with folks I like to run with. ROFLstomp runs are fine on occasion but I want my regular run to be a doable challenge. My goal is always to kill the last boss before the next raid comes out or until the first major nerf hits - I'm well below 50% on that over the years (got DW, almost had Rag and LK), but that's the goal. I wouldn't get that with a Tue PUG stomp run with a group from another server. Would that actually satisfy your personal raiding needs?

      And seriously, if your 25-man raid/group is hinging on you, you're doomed. No successful raid can be that reliant on one person, in my experience. Find yourself another raid on the server, even an alt run for an existing guild... don't join the guild if you don't want to, just offer to be a warm body. Be awesome and see where it goes from there.

    4. Perhaps you give me hope for them then if 70K was you end door number. We had 6 over 120K, and not attacking horridon. They could make up for a lot of slack that way. But I still do not think they should have to.

      I hate that fight on my rogue, hate it as melee in general. I feel so useless most of the time. I've only done it in the LFR on my rogue but my best door only numbers were 55K and that is at 500 item level. I am trying to get better at it but I am not a melee person and just hate that running all over the place thing. I like being ranged no that fight. So much easier.

      I've seen that xfer thing myself. My guild has lost 6 members to xfers so far this expansion and guess what? All 6 are back. They all xfered to raid and couldn't. Some bounced around a few places. Yet they all ended up back "home" because they said, if they are not going to be riding they might as well not be raiding with people they like. I can't argue that.

      I am somewhat the same. My goal is to kill the last boss before major nerfs or the next patch. I too am hovering around 50%. I'll count DW as I did it even if it was the week after the buff. We almost had it and would have had it that week even if they did not add the buff.

      My server is small. I know the guilds above me. One is opposite faction, 3 I do not like the people in, you know, the type were every word is fag and insults, one is ultra hard core even if their progression does not show it and they yell at everyone for everything constantly, and the other one is one my friend is in and I tank for him once in a while. His progression is 1 boss more than mine. So there is no place to go moving up on my server. At least if I want to keep my standard of "I would rather have less progression and be with decent people that more progression and be with people I really do not like."

      I know it needs more than just me, but that too is a problem. No one wants to step up and help. They all just want to be rank and file and kill things and collect loot.

    5. Yeah, if you have that much dps on the doors from your ranged you should be fine, it'll just be a matter of surviving the doors, not a dps issue. People not standing in stuff and (perhaps more importantly) healers removing debuffs, those hit surprisingly hard.

      Yeah, I have a similar issue on my server... most of the guilds that are more progressed than my run aren't exactly people I'd choose to hang with. I wouldn't be shocked if most mid-pop servers had that situation. Could also be that with the higher expectations comes some douchiness. Not sure why that has to be, but it doesn't seem to be uncommon.

      This expansion, though, I'd be fine with nerfs coming more quickly than they are. With 5.3 should have come a 10% across-the-board nerf for regular raids. Any "boss a week" raids should be done now so anyone who's stuck short of a clear must be stuck on a boss... and many of the sticking points can't just be overwhelmed by a few more weeks of gear.

    6. Yeah, I do not think upgrading gear is going to help many. It might get me from doing 120K to 130K because I have everything valor can buy but for most, it is a distraction. They upgrade things when they should be saving valor to by the 522 piece to replace their 476. Instead they waste their valor upgrading that one 522 they have already. They do not realize that upgrading a 476 to a 522 is worth a lot more stat wise.

      The item upgrade is a distraction for middle of the road players, and nothing that will help them at all. A blanket nerf would be better.

      The upgrades are for people that are competent but not that great that need a tiny boost. Not for the masses. I think they are a mistake.

      Maybe we will have more luck next time on the door. I stressed over and over about moving, but some people, most even, seem to get land locked. Not sure why they majority of the player base seems like that. This is my spot and this is where I need to DPS from. I have to beat that mentality out of them. lol

    7. Yeah, it's definitely a progression on that fight... one upside, only the first two doors have random elements to where the ground crap ends up, for the 3rd and 4th doors, the major effects (frost orbs and totems) are put down where the big adds are so if you can come up with a bit of a movement pattern that people can learn and anticipate where things will be dropped, it makes things a lot easier. The biggest issue to overcome seems to be the random feel... once it feels less random it gets a lot easier.

      Also, when I read this I thought of you. :)

    8. Seems like they got him down a lot faster than we did however. lol

      3rd and 4th are easier because like you said we can kite them and basically decide where the junk is dropped.

      Funny part is our 25 team, the new one, got to the 4th door on its now second week.

      We still have are a little weak, only 24, had 7 healers when I would have preferred to have 6, and still have 5 people in the 30s-40s range that I would like to replace or see get better, but 4th door was not bad for a second week trying with that crew. If we had those 5 people in the 60s, had that missing DPS spot filled and one of the healers were a damage dealer and by god I think we might have had it.

      There is always next week. But I am surprised they are moving along as quick as they are. Just need to recruit a few more damage dealers but as the joke goes on my server, 50K is good.

      Not kidding, people on my server think 50K is good. We have 5 people bursting over 200K, one bursting over 500K, and these people think 50K is good? This 25 man is a challenge, that is for sure. I think assembling a good group is harder than any boss I have ever faced.

    9. Yeah, putting groups together is harder than ever, even in 10s (but 25s are still harder, of course).

      We got Horridon down the week after we were consistently getting to the 3rd door... we often went into door 4 with a dead person but that issue went away over time, too. Sounds like you're on the verge of getting it.

      In terms of being over-stocked on healers, do you have any priest healers that can run Disc/Atonement? They don't even have to change anything from their normal talents/glyphs as long as they have a Disc spec, just have them stand in the middle of the room within range of Horridon and just do the full Atonement rotation on him, nothing else... Penance, Holy Fire/Power Word: Solace, Smite. Won't help you kill adds faster but by the 3rd and 4th doors when Horridon is taking significantly more damage, that healer will be putting out significantly more smart healing, too...

    10. Yeah, one disc priest. That is the idea for him. I think the 25 man is close. I am honestly not say for sure why I am still trying after that first run but it seems to have a life of its own.

      Our server, a small one, with no real progression, is all buzzing about our 25 man. Everyone wants to be in it. People doing 11/12 or even heroic want to be in it even though we just starting and are not past horridon.

      The raid is a huge hit, even if we are not getting anything done. But this shows me two things.

      1) People want to raid 25s.

      2) People want a spot but do not want to leave their guild for it.

      Sorry, but that is my bottom line rule. I would rather spend an extra week gearing up 5 guild mates to find one that can get the job done than to pull in someone that is 11/12 but doesn't want to switch guilds.

      Am I wrong for thinking that way?

    11. Wrong? No, but maybe a bit too restrictive. Personally, I'm done with guild flipping, I had 3 die in Wrath (I was generally in 2 simultaneously) and went into Cat basically without a guild... I'd created my own personal guild for my auction alt once guild leveling came in (why not?) and in Cat just put all my toons in that guild. I'm done with that. I have a few guilds that I'm friendly with but I won't put toons in them... just don't see the point. I'll accept raid invitations, will show up on time, bring my own consumables and will use my own guild repairs. The only thing the person being in a guild with you offers is a bit of a penalty threat ("shape up or you're out..."). Since it doesn't sound like you'll resort to that (and may not even have the power within your guild), what is that restriction getting you? If anything, it's EASIER to say "no thanks" to a non-guildie who has proven that they can't perform to an adequate level.

      In your place, I'd do one of two things (or both), assuming these non-guildies are looking for full-time slots rather than just fill-ins:

      * Battletag 'em... have some sort of way to contact them outside of the raid and try to involve them in guild activities - 5-mans, LFR runs, heroic scenarios, retro runs, etc.
      * Create a custom chat channel just for your run (FOG - FriendOf[Guildname]) that they can sign on to with all of their toons to keep in touch with you and others from the group. Your guilded raid members should also join that channel for it to work.

      Ultimately, what keeps groups together is the group members wanting to run together, plus success, not necessarily the guild. Those 11/12 guys probably won't be attracted by your success to this point (*cough*) so bending on the guild requirement and getting involved with them should be enough. If they get along and, even better, do stuff outside of the raid, your work as designated cat wrangler is mostly done.

      That's just me, though. I'm sure many others share your viewpoint for full-time raiders... but if that had been a requirement for most of my raiding life, I'd have done a lot less raiding than I have. I've basically made a career of running with a group of guildies/friends + me and not being guilded has rarely been an issue for anyone...

      Guild achievements are the only exception, with enough non-guildies you don't get guild credit for kills, but if you have a more-progressed main raid in your guild, that isn't an issue. If your raid was the primary guild raid then I probably *would* enforce the guild requirement and only allow exceptions for exceptional players and only enough to still quality for the achievements.

    12. Also, if you get some 11/12 folks in your raid, you can turn the tables and perhaps get some runs on an alt with their alt runs. This game is still about networking... not as much as it was in the early days, sure, but there are still a lot of chances to open up opportunities for yourself if you get in with good people.

    13. I really like that chat channel idea. I might have to use that. Seems like a great way to keep in touch with people outside of guild.

      We still have the 10 man guild running so we can get guild achievements that way. It is not really required the 25 get them. The 25 is more of an experiment.

      That is a good point as well. If I let their alts in they might invite one of my alts along with them.

      I can't tell you the number of runs I filled in for friends with and ended up coming back with an idea of how we could do a fight and it helped us down it. So that networking does work.

      I just have to work on me. I am not a people person. I do not like pugging with people I do not know. I have to get over that.

  6. Lots of good points here. I was a raid leader in Tier 11 in a very casual 10 man guild. That was hard, because you had to balance a fine line in holding people accountable and giving them feedback vs. wanting to progress at the same time vs. people in this casual guild just wanting to have fun and aligning this with how the GM wanted the guild's direction to be. We did ok during that tier, but it wasn't my cup of tea.

    And Grumpy, I'd raid with you anytime (former #1 dk on my medium sized server in tier 13 and 14 via wowprogress hint hint lol)and I'm itchin to get back into it.

    You mentioned it was a feat itself getting the team together, and even downing the first boss. That alone should have given those who quit an answer on expectations. Rome wasn't built in a day. I think just continue to lay out some general expectations next time and keep providing feedback individually if you have to. Raid leading is hard and can be time consuming. Thanks Grumpy!

    1. Blood or frost. Both my regular DKs quit.

      My expectations were to get to know each other, get to see what we can do, and to grow from that.

      I guess I got that. I found out who the selfish people are that will give up after one night of wiping as well as who I do not want to bring back in.

      I feel bad they left. Really I do. But I can't help but think that if they left that quick and easy they would have left anyway later and it is better off I do not spend time teaching them and gearing them and wasting my time on them. You never know, that 17K DPS might just not know better and with a little hand holding to start he cab become good.

      That is what I was there to find out. I would like to think I am a decent judge of seeing people play. It is not all about the DPS, sometimes it is the little things like moving when you should, interrupting what you can, and being back and ready after a wipe ASAP. At least the 17K DPS did all those other things right.

      You never know. I too was once that player in dead last in DPS until I got a few runs under my belt.

    2. It was more of a weeding out run, if that makes sense. You found out who those selfish people were, and they made it easier on you by guild quitting.

      That first run in all honesty was not defeating. You now know what you're up against, and what you need to do in the future if you do 25 mans again. So you have your answers. Coordinating 25 people, most new, some bad, and downing the first boss is an achievement itself.

      And ya, I could be in 535 gear and not be doing the interrupts and standing in sand and that would not help the raid in any way. I've seen a few players here and there progress from doing abysmal dps or healing to becoming outstanding, all around players. Hell I think my original main, a hunter, was just like that lol.

      I've always been Frost, though in Tier 14 I had to go Blood to help our guild at least be able to raid. I don't like giving info in a public forum, but my toon shouldn't be too hard to find. Thanks!

    3. I would love to extend an invite but would not want to make someone server transfer to my server. lol Perhaps a cross realm run some day for fun. I'll look you up.

      We all start somewhere, some lower than others and it seems many people forget that and expect everyone to be great. I am willing to let people grow into players.

      Breaking into raiding is not like it used to be. It is not easy any more. When I started there was one or two things to look out for, there were no heroic raids, and it still took time to learn. Now all fights have so many things to learn and then there is heroic mode and LFR mode, and blah blah blah. If I were new, I would want nothing to do with this. I really feel for the new player and understand why so many are not becoming raiders.

  7. I'm totally with you Grumpy there's so much to handling a raid group and even the slightest tones can send people into tizzy's one ray of light is the Dev team has recently acknowledged that this tier of normal mode raiding was probably too hard and they are working on solutions to that. So they see the issue at least and acknowledge it is there, that a first step.

    1. I must admit, while I believe I can do more this tier, I don't see me getting much more out of it. Raiding is a group thing and with it being so hard to get the right parts, it has been brutal.

      I am glad they realize the issue, but I don't think they are willing to act fast enough. They should fix it now, not next patch. Some numbers being adjusted and it would be more casual friendly. Saying, crap, we messed up is all fine and dandy, but saying, we messed up but we won't next patch is not acceptable. next patch is 3 months away at best. 3 more months of this and I will quit the game or lose my mind. Wait, already lost my mind.

    2. I think a major part of the problem is the lack of the scaling nerf/buff. Or more accurately the nerf/buff scaling is there it’s just hidden away in gear upgrading which makes it not obvious and a bit of a moral killer. GC has stated that they are using the upgrades to make it so they don't have to do the scaling debuff. I think thats a mistake but I understand why they think its a better solution. I just don't think it is.

    3. I don't think any sane raider feels better about killing something with a buff than without one.

    4. @ Tiggi

      Scaling works for people like me. I can see it, I know it is there. But I agree, I think the majority of people do not feel that boost. It is not "in their face" so they feel like they do not have it.

      I am not sure even a 10% nerf will help. It is a mechanic issue for most, not an ability issue. If you do not do the dance right you die. For more skilled groups that makes the fights piss easy, for middle of the pack or for lesser skilled groups, even if you give them a 30% buff, they will still fail. Personally that is where I think the problem is.

      @ James

      A kill is a kill is a kill. Sure for ego reasons it is nice to say I did it before the buff, but I really do not care when I killed it, just that I did.

      Not exactly sure I am sane however.

  8. Our guild/server has had similar issues with progression.

    Top 5 on our server: (all 10mans btw)
    8/12N <-our guild

    In Cata, we had 3 10 man teams and 1 25 man alt team that ran for a while during DS.

    Now, we have 1.5 10 man teams... I play with that .5 team sometimes, but personally don't have the time to raid consistently.

    The content is more difficult. LFR takes up WAY TOO MUCH time. Lots of burnout from the dailies. Raiding isn't a good source for valor. It's been really hard to have raid-ready alts, etc, etc... As a result, there are a lot less raiders than there used to be.

    1. My team argues that Cata content was harder than this. Normal modes at least.

      Compare last bosses from Cata first tier with last bosses from MoP tier. So, Cho'gall with stuns and switches and interrupts compared with Will, where you basically need to be able to kill some adds. Al'akir with many phases and movement compared to Shek'zeer. Shek'zeer is a joke, only issue is figuring out what to do with the adds in transition. We had 6 wipes on her and some 70 on Al'akir (I kid you not, we were retarded). And Sha compared to Nefarion. For real? Kiting, interrupts, stuns, cooldown rotation, massive dmg compared to Sha where tanks don't even need healers on normal...

      The normal content isn't harder, it just requires some planning more than it used to. Like for Ji'kun or Dark Animus. How can you even be stuck on Dark Animus? What's there to do: figure out you have to have each tank in between two adds because they don't link if you bar them. That's it. That's the whole fight. Fights that require tactics only are pure love.

    2. @ Jaeger

      You bring up some of the great points that often get left out while talking about normal mode raiding.

      LFR takes up a lot of time and causes some raid burn out. And doing all the little things like dailies really eats into your day.

      I look over wow progress and what you are showing right there is the majority of guilds. I bet if you scroll down some you will see 50%, or more, of your server stuck at 1/12 and that is just downright sad. Shows a huge design fault in my opinion.

      @ James

      Cataclysm normal modes were fantastic compared to these. Sure there were some annoying things. I really hated a few of the one mistake and a wipe mechanics and believe they have no place in normal modes, but they were a lot easier to get a grasp of in cataclysm as there were not a ton of mechanics going on. Most non end boss fights in cataclysm I could explain in less that 1 minute to people that have never done it. There are so few bosses in mists that are that easy on new players. At least as I see it.

      Might just be a team difference. We destroyed Al'Akir our first week in there and we were not really well geared at the time. I think we had a total of 4 wipes. Not counting a few whoops pulls because of that freaking hit box. But cho'gall was a compete nightmare for us. Even after we over geared it and went back later in cataclysm there was always at least 2 or 3 wipes guaranteed wipes. Each groups have their strengths and weaknesses. I did a pug at 90 the other week and they wiped on cho'gall. Not kidding. Seems our crews are polar opposites. lol

  9. Gosh you're too nice.
    My raid leader would've blasted through the first few seconds: we can and will replace any dps who isn't pulling his weight; if this ain't going well and I don't see you trying, we go to 10m and that's the end of the raid night for some.
    Raid is about a team's cohesion. If you don't have the same mindset and feel the need to sugar coat things so people don't get offended for being told the truth, then you probably don't want to play with those people.

    Real issue is low realm pop, though.

    1. Truth is I really did not want to play with those people. That is absolutely true.

      But the low pop part is the reason why I felt I had to stick it out to evaluate who is worth my time and effort and who isn't.

      Even if someone is doing 30K you can tell if they have the potential to get better. If they are moving right, following mechanics, trying, and I see progress, as in they start at 30K and go up a little each pull, I will take the time to see if I can help them get better.

      I do not have the luxury of saying 80K or GTFO but I would love if I did. I need to grow my own talent and it has been that way for about 2 years. Everyone in my guild for the most part is home grown. They came to me as non raiders, or lesser raiders that were looking for a chance, and I helped them get better. Not because I wanted to, but because I had to.