Tuesday, May 14, 2013

Do Non-Raiders Deserve a Path of Progression?

Deserve is a rather touchy term.  It almost borders on entitlement which seems to be looked at like a four letter word in the game lately.  But it really isn't, at least not always.  If you work 40 hours a week you are entitled to be paid for your work aren't you?  So what exactly should people reasonably feel entitled to?  What do they deserve?

It seems to be a common belief, even by people in my own guild, that if you do not raid you do not need gear.  I've often argue against that and will continue to. 

I have not raided on my shaman this expansion, but I would like to keep it geared so if we start a third 10 man, or if there ever is a pug, I have a healer that is geared enough to be capable of doing it.  There are also the gathering characters.  I have a rogue I do not raid on that is my skinner / leatherworker.  The more gear my rogue has the faster I can farm materials to make what I want to make or to sell to for gold. 

Before I started to gear my rogue, I never went out to farm leather with it.  It was a long drawn out process and it seemed to take forever to get a decent amount of leather so it didn't feel worth my time.  Now with some gear I can pull packs of 4+ mobs and mow them down and skin until my little rogue heart is content.  It makes it feel worthwhile to do.

So that is my standpoint on why I do believe that even if you do not raid you should have access to gear of some sort.  For me, I am lucky.  I am willing to do the LFR to get them some gear.  Every character of mine goes into the LFR, even if I dislike doing it, even if they do not actually raid.  They go in at least enough for my shaman to stay within pug capabilities and my rogue to more effectively farm materials for me.  But what if someone does not wan to raid?  What if there are reasons that can not raid?

Does the non-raider deserve a path of progression when it comes to gear?

Let me tell you the story of a man named Jed.  Wait, wrong story. 

There are, or should I say were, two members of my guild that have been consistent raiders for the better part of 4 years if not more.  Both never missed a raid night.  Both were more than capable of performing their role.  Both were always geared as much as they could be outside of the raid to make how they performed in raid better.  Both are no longer raiding since 5.2. One isn't even playing any more since 5.2 dropped.  He quit.

Why do I bring this up?  Because of the reason they are no longer raiding.  It is, in my opinion, the perfect example of what those people on the forums are complaining about.  Sure, the people on the forums might be unwilling to raid, unskilled or lazy but the two people in question are none of those things.

Their computers just can not handle 25 man raiding.  Even on the lowest of low settings they describe the experience as frustrating and near impossible.  They have never had issues with our 10 mans but for some reason they can not do the 25 mans.  As a odd side note, they are both melee so I can only guess it is the mish mosh of heavy graphics in melee range that is getting to their computers. Only a guess however.

When they could not get reputation past whatever we might down in a 10 man they felt as if they were falling behind and just quit.  Let someone else have the spot.  Give credit where credit is due.  They at least admitted they were no longer capable of giving 100% and left to allow someone that could give 100% the chance at a raid spot.

Now, lets end with that story and look at the non-raider.  Perhaps they are a non raider for the very reason those two guild mates quit raiding.  And this is why I told that little story.  Not all people that don't raid are bad or lazy or unwilling to work type of players.  Some just can't for various reasons.

Perhaps they can't because of computer issues.  Some can't because of time issues for a planned group.  Some can't because they do not have enough time in a row to dedicate to it even in the LFR setting.  Some might have a disorder that makes them anxious around others making it impossible for them to do group content with people they do not know, and yes, that actually happens even in a game.  Some might have connection issues.  Some might have a fear of failure, or being insulted which makes them shy away from it.  Others can't because they do not like large groups, 10s are so much more casual friendly. 

There could be one hundred and one reasons why someone does not want to do the LFR to gear up.  My tank doesn't do the LFR, or at least not often at all.  I refuse to tank it without another guild tank going with me.  Has nothing to do with my ability, I just do not like having to work out who is going to do what through whispers with someone that most of the time just does whatever they want anyway or doesn't respond at all.  At least my tank gets some real raid time in, so it is not horribly behind on gear because it has won a few pieces from the real raid but there are two pieces I would like to buy with valor that I just can't, because I do not have the required reputation and that puts my tank firmly in the same ballpark feeling like the non-raiders feel.  Not being able to buy something.

But once again I have lost track of my own subject.  This is not about the raiders.  It is about the non-raiders.  Sorry for side tracking again.

Is there any good reason why non-raiders should be denied gear progression because they do not raid? 

I have thought about it over and over and I can not think of one reason why they should be denied gear of some sort.  I can see the argument that they should not be able to get raid quality gear but that is basically were it ends for me.  I can agree with that completely.  But no gear?  That just seems like too much of nothing for them.  They should still be allowed some sort of personal progression gear wise in my opinion.

The only reason I could see for saying they should not get gear is so I would feel special walking around in gear they do not have and quite honestly I really do not give a crap about that.  I don't care who has less gear than me, more gear than me or the same gear as me.  All I care about, I guess it comes from being a raid leader, is what you can do with the gear you have.

Gear can only make up for so much, it is what you do with it that matters.  So seeing a non raider with gear does not make me go ooohhh he is good.  I reserve that opinion for when I see them in action.  Like the hunter with nearly all 483 gear in the LFR pulling 120K, he was doing awesome but the boomkin who had all 522 gear except for one piece pulling 100K and telling the entire raid how great he is, is really average at the absolute best and that is me being extremely generous in my assessment.  The gear doesn't not make the player.  Never has, never will.  It just helps the player become the best they can be.  They still need to have the skills to back it up.

Non raiders like to see their character advancing too.  Just like a raider likes to see they went from the 5th boss to the 6th boss the non raider likes to see they went from having 14 level 25 pets to 16 level 25 pets or from having 2114 bones collected toward the raptor to having 2344 bones collected, or they moved from 9880 into revered to 10480 into revered after their dailies. 

Everyone, no matter what they do in the game, likes to see they are making some sort of advancement.  Even role players who are heavy into it and do not care about raids or pets or bones or reputations, they need to move their story forward.  So it isn't always about things directly tied to the game, it is anything.  It is human nature to want to see yourself moving forward and for many people that symbol of moving forward in a game like this is gear.  Gear is the one universal in game.  It is the one thing that even the game uses to judge people.  So it is, in fact, the one true way for the non raider to advance.

So do non-raiders deserve a path of progression?


I don't care, as long as I can still do my thing I say let them have it.


  1. LFR to me is blizz becoming entranced with their own idea and steadfastedly ignoring that it doesn't suit everyone. I don't want to get political but you are american? so you won't care. It's like the British government saying everyone should go to university. Not everyone wants to even if they are technically smart enough. They might have other dreams. It's so much better to be a happy builder than a miserable accountant. To me blizz "let's get everyone raiding" is exactly the same. It's shoehorning and forcing people into a system that they might not want or be suited for.

    All roads lead back to LFR. In T14 you could sort of ignore it and buy valor gear eventually from the different reputation vendors. You wouldn't be able to do the legendary quest which they "made for everyone" but you'd be able to get comparable gear to LFR. However, in T15 you don't have that option. You could buy outdated valor gear from the T14 vendors or or or? Nothing. The new reputation vendor is rep from running LFR. So if you don't want to or can't LFR, and you don't raid normals, then your gear progression stopped in T14.

    My raid team has basically imploded. I'm on a very low pop realm. Recently the 2 best guilds realm transferred which I think makes us 4th or 5th on the realm with 9/12, that'll tell you about my realm. The 5th or 6th guild (so the one behind us) just killed Mageara last night. I am extremely unlikely to either get another raid spot or get one in such a progressed guild. I'm a tank and there's hardly a shortage of them in raiding, healers yes but not tanks. So I'm looking at a future without raiding for a while.

    My computer doesn't like LFR. It grinds to a half on world bosses and I just get disconnect after disconnect. I also hate LFR because of the abuse people dish out, the general attitude of "screw everyone else" that people have, the fact that it's not raiding, it just shares the same aesthetics. I just, I hate LFR. So what is my progress going to be like in the future? I have a personal stake in your post, because I am looking at that future. Where it's LFR or bust.

    5.3 isn't bringing any new gear vendors either. They are all vanity or low level like Kirin Tor's offerings from what I've heard. So we're looking at another whole patch where it's LFR for gear or just stay with what you have. If people can't progress then they'll get fed up and quit. Everyone needs some kind of way to move forward, a reason for logging in.

    I hope blizz realise this LFR or nothing is a mistake. Not everyone wants to even do pretend raiding LFR style. They need to put in something for other people, just something. Why not let LFR non tier gear be available for valor from somewhere? If you want tier you'd need LFR, but you'd have something you could get. We'll have to see how they handle T16. If it's LFR or nothing again then you'll have people who are still stuck in T14 gear, and that just isn't right. What reason do they have to continue playing?

    1. I'd go all the way back the those numbers where they said so few raided, even back in wrath where it seemed like everyone raided.

      If so few raided when it was extremely accessible that means people just do not want to. So why force them?

      We have stuff like that in the US as well. More so in new york where I live. Our mayor even is pushing a bill making it illegal to sell a pepsi or coke that is in any size larger than 16 ounces. Excuse me? If I want a 20 oz soda I will buy one. You should not tell me I can only buy it in the sizes you want to give it to me.

      Sorry to hear about your raiding situation. And it had just gotten better for you and is already done. That really sucks and is really telling. My server is like yours. Only 6 guilds have more than 2 bosses down on normal. You believe that? Only 6 guilds have downed the 3rd boss on normal.

      The LFR is not the solution to try to get everyone raiding. At least not the way it is. It is made for raiders to have a super easy time with, not for non raiders to have a super easy time with. Make it easy for the non raider, not easy for me. That would help. And start to bad the people that bring their hate to them.

      There are many thing that could help the LFR and the actual raiding community in general. In the end the need to realize that throwing everyone together in that vat of bile and hate is actually bad for the game in general.

      I can see why the people that do not LFR, for whatever their reasons might be, would quit. There is nothing left game for many of them. Pet battles and all the other little fun distractions they added are great, but they are not enough for most.

    2. "is really telling"

      Are you saying I'm a curse? I jest.

      No in all seriousness my raiding group has failed for 2 reasons. A) low pop server and b) mists raiding approach. This ties in well with your post. Blizz didn't just forget about non raiders in their enthusiasm for all LFR all the time, they also forgot about the middle guy.

      I have no complaints about T14 or T15, normal mode and what I've seen, as I do like them both. I found them mostly challenging enough but nothing that couldn't be overcome. However I'd have to be blind not to see how many guilds have gone under. We've lost our only heroic guild's to another realm but we also lost a lot more guilds who couldn't get going on the tier. The Officer's Quarters wrote an article on this saying that casual guild raiding was gone. You either step up or fall off.

      So all those groups that used to raid but couldn't cut it this expansion. What do they have? LFR? Poor substitute, just a mockery of what they've lost. Add in that a lot of small guilds depended on alts and that's another issue.

      Now I'm not saying T14 or T15 was too hard. Personally for me they weren't and I think they were fine on difficulty. However what I personally think is immaterial. It 's like blizz loved LFR so much they're trying to do a one size fits all with it. Cutting the bottom set of guilds off the list and saying "no more organised raiding have LFR abuse fest instead"

      Hmm I hope I don't read this tomorrow and think I was too harsh. I'm furious right now about a guild thing. Anyway you know I agree with you Grumpy and I wish blizz could read your post and realise the same.

    3. One thing I agree on - dead realms. Population is really starting to be a big issue and I don't think Blizz realizes how big.

    4. Not you being a curse, the game getting to a lot of people and burning them out. lol

      I agree, as the middle guy, I am hurting and really finding reasons to even attempt to raid. I just do not enjoy wiping on every boss for 3 weeks before we down it. One solid night of quick pulls for a decently skilled group that is not seriously under geared should be all it ever takes.

      Even in Cata, which people said the early raids were brutal, we were advancing at one boss a week. I would be happy with 1 boss every 2 weeks now and that isn't happening. They did forget about us. :(

      @ James

      Dead realms suck. My guild just combined with another guild, two top 10 guilds, and we still have issues fielding groups. Ouch.

  2. It all seems to keep coming back to this one point: LFR is toxic.

    Mists has been a fantastic expansion, and I've loved every minute of it, even the things I didn't think I would touch, such as pet battles and farming.
    The only part I don't enjoy is LFR. And I don't think I'm the only one.

    1. I am right there with you. I am loving this expansion. I hate the LFR as well. It is beyond toxic. It is game killing.

    2. Did you guys see the presentation about toxic gameplay from the League of Legends developers? Very interesting and clearly shows that the developers can do something about it.

      The Science Behind Shaping Player Behavior in Online Games

      Check it out if you haven't watched it. It's only 25 minutes long.

  3. Anon, Grumpy's former GL:

    Even in Cata, LFR did not please me...I would run it with my priests to get gear so I could be available to help out when needed but running it with a guild group still left non-guild members with a nasty disposition in the same place as me. I won a roll for my main spec on one occasion and got whispered that I should trade it to another player who was in my main spec (and not doing all that great at it) as I already had the same piece on as my healing spec. No thank you, I need it I replied for my own use. The abuse started and the least of the insults was N00B...which I actually found hilarious as I have been gaming since the 1960s (tabletop war games and sports games).

    I know I am burnt out on WoW, but nothing irritated me as much as the Looking For system when I was playing full time. It has not been a benefit to the game even though individuals have benefited from it for gearing and look--see the content players. I railed against it from the day it was released and I continue in my strong belief that it has harmed WoW more than it has benefited.

    I have always been opposed to WoW's gear as progression model. It makes for a Monty Haul game, and I assure you that long term people tire of the rat race such a system leads to for gearing and replacing gear over and over. WoW subscription rates reflect this problem though no one else seems to recognize the origin of the problem being inherent in the gaming system set up by Blizzard.

    Grey and White gear are vendor trash, Green gear not much better than Disenchant materials or vendor trash (soulbound for the loss), Blue gear becomes better DE mats, and Epic gear is also pretty much DE mats soon after getting it originally.

    The words common, rare, and unique have about lost their meaning in WoW...especially rare and unique. Rare should be a handful of folks get lucky per server. Unique should be ONE person per server. Instead we have guilds of no particular greatness filled with player toons equipped with "unique" gear that is the same as everyone else of the same class and spec. Gee, how unique...

    I won't go into alternatives to the gear as progression model of gaming, but they do exist. And even the gear as progression model needs moderation--great moderation in amount distributed--to avoid the pitfall of Monty Haul. Otherwise players grow tired of gearing up only to have to repeat the same process with every content patch. For players that aren't worried about gear save as a means to be able to play with the fellow gamers, the system works...more or less until it reaches a burnout point in the gear rat race. The Looking For system helps reach that burnout point sooner for many I suspect. I know my own case was not all that affected by the LFD/LFR system as I basically avoided the two as much as possible. But in another way, my burnout was intensified by the Looking For system. It eliminated for all practical purposes any other method of doing dungeons and raids to gain the initial gear needed to do a normal raid.

    Ah well, ending my rant now. Blizzard came close with WoW to establishing a great game but they built flaws into the game, initially and subsequently that make it so I no longer care to play full time. Maybe later...

    1. The looking for system was a boon and a bane in the same. It helped the game in some ways and hurt in others.

      It is only now, years since it has started, that we are finally seeing how much the bad is and how little the good is. The scale as definitely swung to the looking for system is killing the game, one death at a time zone.

      I too tired of the gearing rat race. There are many that complained about ICC being too long, about DS being too long. They wanted more content. I agree, I wanted more content. But there is one little thing about that ICC and DS time that I did love. I was basically done gearing. Sure, on a very rare occasion I might get a drop I needed as there were always a few slots I did not have BiS but it was not required. It allowed me to do other things in game and not feel as if I had to keep working toward gearing up.

      Now, I work my ass gearing up and when I finally get a decent set of gear, maybe not the best, but good enough that I can roll with it and be happy, there is new stuff for me to get coming out.

      I love gearing up and getting stronger just as much as the next guy but there is something to be said about putting on some gear and keeping that same exact gear for a few months. Not it just seems like it never stops, I am always looking for more gear. So I know what you mean.

      Maybe some day you will come back. But I don't suggest it now. Mists is fantastic, but mists is also a rat race and unless you want to run the wheel for a while it is not really worth the trip back to azeroth.

  4. hmmm,
    note – a lot of thinking and mind wandering around here. Take it for what it is meant and re-read. Getting mushy headed.

    I look at Raiders as the "professional" wow player. You do it to get the achievements or titles that I can never have. Moreover, with Blizzard giving über stats to bosses, I can understand the über gear.

    However, for me to be denied the gear to be able to kill quickly the PVE-world-out-wandering-around-mob or rare, is plain wrong.

    Forcing folks to do LFR with bozos, trolls, and possible troublemakers is not right. It is not Blizzards place to make world peace for all of humanity (how many times you thought every-one was going to roll on a drop as greed and roll as need? Too many times, the little bloody bastards rolled need and left.).

    Maybe Blizzard needs to look at how they are giving out über stats on PVE-world mobs and lower them, or by gosh give me the ability whether thru world drops or crafted items to be able to take them on. Notice I did not say "raid ready", I said "pve-world ready". And don’t tie mats to instances or raids.

    It is tiring to see rares (or regular mobs) out wondering around who have 4 times the health than what I do and is pervious to any of my attacks – they are in my mind raid boss size. Why? Why are they that way? Sure make it a fight, but when I fire a concussive shot and the rare (or regular pve mob) can ignore it and stun me instead, that is no fun. Tit-for- Tat. If I can be stun, then they can be stun.

    Maybe Raiding should be different where stats are used on raiding gear. Nevertheless, outside of the raid instance, that gear losses all of it special stats and becomes plain ordinary gear.

    I like some of the reasons you listed on why folks maybe do not raid, but you missed a couple – maybe arthritis in the hands where it is hard to push buttons (a friend of mine is like that). Or, like me, a tumor that messes with the memory – hard to remember what things do and what I am supposed to be doing. We cannot bring 100% to a raid, but do fine in the PVE-world side, until we run into PVE-world side raid type bosses outside of an instance that require that über gear!! :D

    A very interesting post. Maybe it is time to lose the levels in the game and all the über gear such as “the sword of 1,000 truths”.

    Nah, it will never happen,lol.

    stay frosty…

    P.S - at least Blizzard put special awards one can buy to lessen the rep grind on alts. :D

    1. I do like the double rep things. Works nice for shado-pan and klaxxi who have quests, doesn't help a great deal with golden lotus and not at all with august celestials. But a decent change none the less for alts.

      You are the perfect example of who I am talking about when I say, just because you do not raid does not mean you do not need raid gear. You would still like better gear to take down the bigger mobs you run into easier and I have no problem with that. I am not sure why blizzard or the player base seem to have an issue with it. Why should the gear you get have any impact on my game play? That is why I really do not care if people get it. Some people just have to be special snowflakes I guess.

      I know what you mean about some of those rares. They can be brutal when you are not prepared. The normal rares are all pretty simple for a hunter once you know what to do, but most other classes I feel really bad for. No matter their gear they will have issues or even not be able to do them at all.

      And lets not even get into the isle and the scenarios that leads you into them.

      I have a few non raiders in my guild that just made it there and now that it is all open they need to do them all before they can do quests there. Well, guess what? Those quests are very hard to near impossible for players that are not very good or have decent gear to out gear them. They are stuck and can not move any further. I feel for them. Oddly enough, one told me that just as I finished them all on my 448 monk. But I read up on how to play it and I knew the scenarios already, so I had an advantage. I would be dismissing their concerns by saying if I can do it you can do it, but that seems to be the standard blizzard line now. I just don't agree with the "if I can do it you can do it" as the answer for everything people disagree with approach.

    2. thanks. Like what Anon, Grumpy's former GL said above, I truly agree with him and ya. Doesn't make much sense what was once über is now no longer. Honestly, any purple should always be purple and über, no matter what add-on.

      what does 'gl" stand for - golf lifer? gross lips? gold lender?

      well, you know the answer to this anyway about raid gear - "The lie must go on!"

      stay frosty... and thanks for listening


    3. sorry, one more thing.

      Have you heard anymore about a 3rd profession being added to the game with the next patch? Or was that for the next add-on?


    4. GL = Golden Lotus

      3rd prof was just something being discussed. No official news of if it'll happen or when.

    5. As Jaeger said, Golden Lotus.

      I don't think a third profession is in the immediate future. That sounds like something that would end up being added in a new expansion, not a patch. But you never know.

    6. lol, ok. must be an inhouse joke or something. :D I acutally thought guild leader. But if it is one of those NY terms of endearment, I apologize.

      having a blast

    7. Anon, Grumpy's former GL:

      LOL, the GL stands for Guild Leader, a term I prefer over Guild Master. Golden Lotus indeed... Context is everything I suppose. Our guild has been around since March 2005, and in that time, we have had several different guild leaders. We survive as a guild because the Guild Leader is viewed not as owning the guild but rather being the steward for the guild, with the various officers actually running the guild.

  5. Hunter 5.3 changes
    •Hunters now have 50 pet stable slots, up from 20.
    •Cooldown on crowd control abilities for several Hunter pet families have changed.
    •Basilisk pet family’s Petrifying Gaze cooldown is now 2 minutes (up from 1 minute).
    •Bat pet family’s Sonic Blast cooldown is now 2 minutes (up from 1 minute).
    •Crane pet family’s Lullaby cooldown is now 2 minutes (up from 1 minute).
    •Porcupine pet family’s Paralyzing Quill cooldown is now 2 minutes (up from 1 minute).
    •Shale Spider pet family’s Web Wrap cooldown is now 90 seconds (up from 45 seconds).
    •Worm pet family’s Burrow Attack has had its cooldown reduced to 14 seconds (down from 20 seconds).
    •Aspect of the Hawk now increases ranged attack power by 25%, up from 15%. •Revive Pet now has a cast time of 4 seconds, down from 6 seconds.
    •Scatter Shot now shares diminishing returns with Freezing Trap and Wyvern Sting.
    •Aspect of the Iron Hawk now increases ranged attack power by 25%, up from 15%.
    •Binding Shot is no longer a talent and learned by Marksmanship Hunters at level 30.
    •Blink Strike has been renamed Blink Strikes and turned into a passive ability. The pet's Basic Attacks deal 50% increased damage, can now be used from 30 yards away, and will instantly cause the pet to teleport behind their target.
    •Intimidation is now a level-30 talent available to all Hunter specializations and no longer learned by Beast Mastery Hunters at level 20.
    Beast Mastery
    •Beast Cleave now deals 75% of the original damage, up from 50%. •Exotic Beasts no longer reduces the cooldown of pet special abilities by 30%.
    •Bombardment now increases the damage of Multi-Shot by 60%, up from 30%.
    Item Sets
    •PvP 2-piece set bonus has been redesigned. Using Arcane Shot now causes the Hunter's PvP Power to increase by 800 for 6 seconds.

    So, we are being changed because of the whiners in PVP?

    1. There are actually some very good PvE buffs in there. Really liking the Blink Strikes change and the Beast Cleave and Aspect of the Hawk buffs.

      PvP is just a mess this season. Lots of changes for lots of classes; not just hunters.

      Binding Shot and Intimidation changes are questionable though.

    2. I think some of the changes are very good for PvE. Like that blink strike will now be a buttonless ability. A few more like that and the hunter bloat will be gone.

    3. greets Jaeger and hi GE,

      Yeah, I guess so on blink strike as I never have used it. But now it seems to be really introducing "magic" into a pet.

      I know Lynx Rush was nice and then messed with. And I like Beast Cleave being upped. And of course a stable of 50 for pets (a lot, but there are a lot of folks who like their pets! I generally have about 8 to 10 in my stables. with 2 with me all the time)

      Moving Intimidation from learned at lvl 20 to a talent at 30, is bit rough. Intimidation was always a god send at lvl 20 for me. But at least now all can use it.

      If you had read the replies on the forum, then you will know where I was coming from on "So, we are being changed because of the whiners in PVP?"


      stay frosty...

  6. Now to finally comment on the topic:

    YES! :D

    Valor gear (or some equivalent) should be attainable by everyone. Let non-raiders gear up and let raiders fill in for bad luck. Tier sets can be for raiders only if they want to make something exclusive.

    LFR for all it's problems is what allowed me to get into raiding. I went from valor + LFR gear straight into Heroic DS during Cata and I'm almost as well geared as the actual raiders in our guild since they aren't doing much Heroic progression (too much content, too quickly, so they can't keep up).

    I like having the highest gear I can get so that I can solo things and do the occasional raid with guildies.

    Oddly, the times when I have enjoyed the game the most was during those long final tiers where it wasn't about the grind. I started playing after ICC came out so I was leveling and doing 15 minute heroics and all that stuff which was fun. During DS, I enjoyed Heroic progression (at our own pace), soloing, achievement hunting, running old raids for fun, etc.

    1. Tier for raiders only always made perfect sense. I think that should be their bonus for raiding. Have the same gear, without bonus, for valor and both camps are happy. In theory anyway. ;)

      I like being able to keep up on my main too because I usually end up having to tank. It would suck if my main were screwed and the day that came when I got into a raid and wasn't needed to tank I did not have the gear to contribute well enough. I like having other options, just like you mentioned.

      I mentioned that in a reply to someone the other day too. I miss that ICC and DS done with gearing break where it was just raiding for fun.

    2. I think they should make the tier pieces purchasable with VP, and put them behind the rep grind, with the rep being raid based like the Shadow-Pan Assault.

      The SPA would sell regular 522 Valor pieces at Neutral, and tier pieces for those who went into ToT and grinded rep so they could fill the spots where the Tier token didn't drop.

      This would mean that LFR players could grind for rep and replace the LFR pieces with Normal pieces, but hey, it's a lot of work either way to grind rep and build up the VP needed to buy the stuff.

  7. I've been looking at this from all sides. This game is about action and reward. Reward is gear. For everything.
    Quests are designed to be doable in quest gear or slightly less. You do quests. You get quest gear. It's appropriate for questing. Dungeons are designed to be done in dungeon gear or slightly less.
    You do dungeons. You get dungeon gear. It's appropriate for doing dungeons.
    You do raids. You get raid gear. It's appropriate for doing raids. Raids are designed to be done in raid gear or slightly less.
    You do pvp. You get pvp gear. It's appropriate for doing pvp. Pvp is designed to be done in pvp gear or slightly less.

    Is this not fair? Is this not a fair system? That you get rewarded appropriate gear for the activity that you choose to do?

    And then there's 'grind gear' (rep, valor). Since it's across all activities but can be gained by even grinding just quests, it is not designed for any specific activity. Hence it is not the best of gear but definitely not the worst. There's many types of grinds: rep through dailies, rep through raiding, valor through quests and randoms and whatever. iLvl varies accordingly.

    Progression-wise. The progression is not in-between activities. The progression is done in itself.
    Low level quests gives lower level gear. Higher level quests give higher level gear. Some long quest chains may even offer epic-quality items.
    Normal dungeons offer lower level gear. Heroic dungeons offer max dungeon level gear.
    Normal raids offer normal raid gear. Heroic raids offer heroic raid gear.
    Some of these overlap, since a normal dungeon may actually be easier than completing a full quest chain or the likes. There's no clear progression. It's just that things are awarded per their (assumed) difficulty.

    Now I've read a few times on this blog some comments along the lines - I want the LFR gear, but I don't want to LFR. I just don't understand that. Why would you want gear that is not designed nor awarded for the activities you want do? I don't moan about pvp gear, because I don't do it. I'm on a pvp server though, I'm sure pvp gear would come in handy. But it just makes absolutely no sense to get something I didn't earn by doing the appropriate content.

    It's the overlapping that is the problem. Combined with the fact that you can use some gear from one activity into the other. If pvp gear wouldn't be sometimes better than pve gear and seemingly easier to obtain, you wouldn't hear people complaining they don't want to do pvp to get geared. Or the other way around. If quest gear was only available for doing quests, you wouldn't hear people complain that they need to do quests to get raid gear. And so on. But you can't have such a design.

    1. When there was no LFR, people wouldn't complain about Hyjal Avengers rep. Or the Wrath one form ICC. And what gear progress did you have back then if you weren't raiding?

      I can take the heroic raid gear and do all of the pve content successfully or easier than those who don't raid. That's, again, overlapping. But, again, you can't have such a design without overlapping.

      LFR thing? People want the gear because it's seemingly very accesible. If it wasn't, if it required what heroic raiding required, people wouldn't be moaning. You don't see them moan they don't have 541 pieces. At least I've never seen such. Why are people able to realize they don't deserve / need that gear but aren't able to realize even lower level gear isn't designed for them. Or is it that they just want more and if they got normal raiding gear for quests they'd soon start to moan about wanting heroic raiding gear?

      LFR is a mess because it's still very very hard for some people. People wouldn't get pissed off if people were competent, but they're not. But how to design a raid to be silly-proof? How can you take something and design it as to be real real easy. Then you need to have appropriate gear for it - which is real low level gear. Because it would be unfair to work harder in a 5-man than in a LFR.

      Is the system really unfair if you really look at it? Isn't it greedy or unrealistic to want what others have without doing the exact thing that those are doing?

      You can't have paths of progression for each content type. You just can't. This isn't about deserving. This is just about the game premise. You can't have 10 distinct paths of gearing that don't overlap because it would be hard to offer more and more for each and for completists it would be overwhelming. Don't heoric raiders deserve more after being fully heroic geared? Why do they have to wait for the next raiding patch? It's just the way things are. We all stop with the gear progression at some point. Some of us finish with the progression faster, some slower. My alts for example have a looooong way to go with the gear progression because thy do a dungeon once a week at best. The one lvl 90 alt I have probably won't even get raid gear this expansion, just maybe a couple of lfr pieces. It's normal to want more. We all deserve more. We can only push to get more. More of our preferred type of content and better rewards for our preferred type of content.
      But. Really. It's like asking other for more toys as children. Do we deserve more? Sure. Wouldn't mother want to give us more? Sure. But that's all she's able to buy for us at a given time. She wants us to be happy. She sometimes tries to offer sweets instead of toys maybe, or other things we might like. aybe we like what we are given, maybe we go back to crying we want more toys. Or maybe the Cindy doll isn't exactly like the Barbie doll and doesn't bend like Barbie would and we're disappointed.
      Unlike families though, we can pick another game if it's just not enough to satisfy us.

    2. Big mistake - no more 5 man. It's not that it was catching up. It's that it was more content for those who liked that content. There's more quests, more pvp stuff, more raids. No more dungeons.
      And if that was really the gist of the post, then yes, people deserved more dungeons. With better rewards. Everyone else gets stuff, people who just enjoyed dungeons, don't. They got less than they normally did (in previous expansions). Blizz thought people who enjoyed dungeons would also enjoy raiding but it's clearly not the same kind of content. Cars are toys but I wanted dolls. Brother is happy with cars. I'm not and feel cheated. Mom is on a budget though. Can't buy a ton of cars for brother and a ton of dolls for me, she thought it was ok to buy a ton of cars and limit it to that but maybe next time she's balance things out. Less cars or cheaper cars and more dolls. I wonder if brother's going to be happy though... He's not gonna get high quality cars like last time... Oh well.

    3. Where I think you are missing the point is that gear isn't all about labels. Raid gear might drop in raids but it isn't used exclusively in raids. It also enables those players to clear dungeons faster, kill more mobs out in the world, maybe solo a boss that they couldn't quite manage before. Whatever the case the gear makes them stronger all the time - not just in raids.

      That's what the argument is here. That nobody whether they are a heroic raider or a non raider wants to stand still in their personal progression. Heroic raiders burn through content super fast and then put it on farm to get all those bis pieces, some unsub till the next raid, others go into other aspects of the game, whatever they do they are doing something to move their character forward.

      With the LFR or bust model that blizz have used non-raiders (and I count people that don't LFR in this) have no further progression than T14. All the new gear added in 5.2 is tied to LFR. Sure everyone reaches a point where they have got all the gear they can possibly get in their chosen approach (whether hc raider or non raider) but nothing was added for the non raiders in 5.2. In the past they got a new dungeon, or the questing area gave slightly better gear than the previous quest vendors. They also could purchase last tiers gear for a more accessible currency, and some of this tier without having to raid for the rep to unlock it. With the new Mists model if you don't raid (inc LFR) then you are stuck and can't move forward at all - you have no options.

      I'm not saying let non raiders get equivalent raid gear, though personally I don't care if they do. I'm saying let them progress somehow in getting stronger, rather than just freezing their progression because they don't raid. Offering non-tier LFR pieces for a non reputation blocked valor vendor seems like a nice compromise. It still gives a bonus (tier bonuses) to running LFR but it enables those non raiders to do something. It's also not raid gear so raiders still have their special gear. Personally, as a raider, I don't care if everyone on the server has the same gear as me. I like what the gear lets me do, I'm not in competition with anybody. As long as people are happy with their personal progression then what does it matter how everyone is doing? That is another argument for another time though.

    4. Thank ye kind' Tait. Fur a Brit, ye aren' half bad :P (only joking, I spent 3 lovely years at Alconbury RAF. My favorite place? - why the 4 Horseshoes pub right out the gate with me pint o' bitters and roasted chicken crisps.

      stay frosty...

    5. @James.

      That is perfectly fair. But what about my healing alt that just sits there waiting for the day it is needed. Does it need to sit there in only quest gear? No.

      It should be allowed to keep up with the current raid so if it is needed it can go in there and contribute. It should be allowed to gear up for a raid without raiding so if and when I want to raid with it I can.

      In theory that works just fine but in practice, as we see, it doesn't work quite that well. Even more so for alts and people who play less.

      The grind gear progression is, higher item level = progression. That is the sense of it. Not the best way to do it, no, but it is a clear path of progression. Increased power.

      I see what you are saying with the "why need LFR gear if you are not doing it" but you seem to miss the point that if it were not for that gear than everyone that is not a raider basically stopped gearing at the beginning of the expansion.

      Those people need some path of progression and they feel forced to do the LFR to get the 502 and afterwards 522 gear otherwise they are stuck with the 489s that came out with the start of the expansion and the few 496s that were added later.

      Would raiders keep raiding if there was nothing in it for them? (I would, I raid for fun, not loot, but most would quit if there was no gear to get.)

      Would PvPers keep PvPing if they didn't get some sort of gear upgrade that showed they did it longer and well? (some might, but not all.)

      So why expect people that just like to play for the sake of playing but still want to see some gear progression not get any?

      Everyone wants to feel as if they are getting more powerful even if they never use that power for anything other than poking rats with a stick in the streets of stormwind.

      Or more importantly. How would someone poking a rat with a stick in stormwind hurt your game play if they were doing it in 522 gear?

    6. @ James second post.

      You had valor gear for cata, you had frost gear for wrath. Also, in cata you could use justice to buy last tiers stuff and in wrath you could use triumph (?) to buy the last tiers stuff and both were super easy to attain in large amounts if you put some effort in.

      So both of those had very quick and easy paths of progression for the non raiders.

      Not sure what comparison you are trying to make here. There was amazingly gear progression for the non raiders in both examples you gave.

      If anything you just proved that a better path of progression for the non raiders could be done, they did it both those times.

      I think the issue with the LFR is this "random group content". People do not DEMAND things that need assembled groups. They do not demand normal mode gear either. They do not demand challenge mode gear either.

      If content is random content, people feel they should be allowed to get it. And that is what blizzard has taught them since the random content was added to the game in what? Tier 9 was it? That is a long history for their people to be trained they are allowed to have it.

      I'll end with an I disagree with the "you can not have a path of progression for all".

      You can have 522 offered from doing quests. Just like they do with PvP gear. Get so many honor kills this season, you are allowed to buy this. Do not many dailies this season, you are allowed to buy this.

      You could do that for quests, dungeons, scenarios, etc.

      So I disagree, you can have a path of progression for everyone. You can make all your players feel they are worthwhile and they mean something to you. You can do it all, they just do not want to.

    7. @James post 3.

      New dungeons would have or could have filled the gap for people.

      Lowering the old tiers stuff to justice would have been the better solution however. At least in my opinion. Old stuff should use old currency.

    8. @ Taitrina

      You hit the nail on the head. Exactly what I am saying. For someone that does not raid, and even more so does not LFR, there is nothing for them this patch, or next for that matter.

      They are going to be sitting in T14 gear, their personal progression done, for how long? Until T16. But what if they lock that behind a raid again. DO they expect the non raiders, which even counting the LFR still means well more than 50% of their player base, just freeze an entire expansion with no gear upgrades?

      I don't get it.

    9. I think I failed at explaining this.

      The point of it is: progression gear is for progression content. The problem you should be complaining about is not: why do I not get progression content for the activity I like?
      I raid. I have blues. There's bosses harder and harder. With gear next boss doesn't get easier, it's usually the same amount of hard. Then heroic boss. Then the next heroic boss. IT gets harder. I get better gear.
      For dungeons, it's limited. You do normal dungeons once and it's an amount of hard. You do same one on heroic (lvl 90) and it's a similar amount of hard (supposedly) with your better gear. And that's it.
      Quests - early level quests give you some gear and they require some effort on your part. Higher level zones are harder but because of received gear, they require about the same amount of effort.

      Dailies: there's the easy dailies who give you the rep gear and whatever and the new dialies (Thunder isles) that are harder through the sheer fact that the mobs have more health. That's why you get some better pieces of gear. I'm pretty sure some undergeared people complain that Thunder Isle is pretty harsh for them.

      Do you really need progression gear to do same dailies over and over? No. No you don't. You need progression gear for harder content. You ain't getting harder content and that's the problem, not that you aren't getting gear to do the same thing easier.
      It's not about deserving or not deserving. You aren't getting more gear because there is nothing to justify giving the gear for. They designed a type of content and offered gear for it. Deserve - it's more for your content. More dungeons, more quests, more whatever you want. And appropriate gear for it. Then you can take gear and do your older dailies faster.

      I'll put it differently: do I deserve better gear for doing the same boss over and over and over? Should I expect that the next patch same boss gives me higher level gear?
      So. Do I deserve better gear for doing the same daily? Or skinning the same mob?
      Or is it that I deserve more content, harder content that gets rewarded with new gear, better gear?

    10. In a way you can say that questing does have some progression at the moment. I know a few, albeit bad, players that are stuck and not able to open the isle because they can not get past one of the solo scenarios.

      Same with the legendary quest line. I know more than a few people that can not move any further because they are stuck on the last quest before you get the head gem. After doing it myself the first thing I said was, there are some people that will never be able to do this. That is quest content.

      Heck, the mobs on the island will rip a fresh 90 a new asshole, pardon the language. But that is also quest progression.

      I agree with dungeons however. They are what they are and they never evolve. Oh well, as they say, it is what it is. I do feel bad for the people that enjoyed that part of the game as their main focus and it does seem there are a lot that did. With no new dungeons AND nothing to spend the valor or justice they get from doing them on, they have completely alienated a section of the player base.

      Do you really need progression gear for anything?

      No, not at all. I could have done ToT in my T14 gear no problem. I would have needed to find a better guild however. I would have needed to up my skill level as well I am sure. But I did not NEED gear.

      And even if I did NEED the gear it could have been easily designed to not need it. The only reason it was designed to need it so they can offer that gear and make people feel like they are moving up. And that is the key. Everyone wants that feeling even if all they are doing is questing.

      No matter if the content is the same over and over or continuously getting harder, you need to offer gear so people feel they are moving forward. Even if they are only poking a rat with a stick in stormwind getting a bigger stick matters. It really does.

  8. Why can't non-raiders get the best (PVE) gear? Because people play for gear, and so the best gear can not be available too easily (since otherwise people would obtain it too fast and stop playing), and the only really lengthy PVE end-game is, well, raids.


    They can change it, and add some other form of lengthy PVE end-game different from raids, which would reward equally good gear. There is some of this already in reps (look at ilvls in 5.0). They could certainly add more. Should they do this? Maybe. I think this is simply a question of priorities.

    As to LFR, I stopped doing it after I killed Lei-Shen. I've seen all the content, I don't want to raid normals or heroics, so why bother. I am not even capping valor anymore. When the next raid comes, I will kill everything in LFR, get some drops on the way, buy / upgrade some items and go back to not caring about PVE. It feels good, btw. :-)

    1. Not saying the best PvE gear. Something, that is advancement. If last tier they got all their 489 and 496, this tier they have no gear to get at all unless they raid.

      Not saying they should get the best gear, not at all. But shouldn't they have some gear progression?

      If I were better at it I could see turning PvP but I suck at it and do not feel like learning to get better at this stage in my gaming life. But the PvP gear model is so much better in my opinion.