Wednesday, March 28, 2012

LFR Loot Rules Won't Fix the Problems

In the most recent water cooler post by our friendly neighborhood crab ghostcrawler, found here, he explains a lot about loot in MoP.  There are many things I wish to touch on in what he said, like valor is no longer going to be used to buy gear, but this is about the looking for raid loot system he is saying will be implemented.

So here he is, ghostcrawler stepping up to the plate to bat.  Can he get a hit?

In a not so stunning way Blizzard has once again proved its complete detachment from the community and an utter lack of understanding as to why there were issues with the LFR loot system.

Their new design is simple enough, everyone rolls, everyone that wins gets someone fitting for their role.  Simple and basic and quite honestly not a bad idea but it is still faulty.

One good thing is we will no longer need to wait on people that just leave not rolling.  The good things end there.

Their assertion that this will fix a lot of the problems with people winning gear you felt you deserved will be cleared up is about as faulty as can be.

What they seem to miss the point on about this is that if player A and player B both roll on an item and player B wins when they did really horrible, player A has a right to complain they deserved it more, but do they think that allowing both player A and player B to win at the same time will change the opinion of player A?

If player B did do really poorly in their role they do not deserve the loot.  That is how the average player in the game sees it.  Even if player A can win as well, the act of player B winning will still cause problems.  Sure, people can not say that they won "my loot" but they will still complain that player does not deserve the loot.

Instead of it being like this.. "the worst players always win my loot"
It will become this.. "the worst players are the ones that always win something"

Blizzard seems to think that option two is better than option one.  Blizzard seems to think that the community is better off if only they make it so that player B is not getting loot out of the hands of player A.  Blizzard is wrong.

Player A, even if they did not want the loot, has a problem with player B winning because player B does not deserve it.  While that might only be their personal opinion it will not change just because they changed the loot system.  Player A will still be pissed off that player B won something.  Player A will still create drama.

Not sure what game crabby is playing but apparently it is not the same game I play because the community in the one I play will still create drama because someone they deem undeserving wins something.

Swing and a miss on that one Ghostcrawler, nice try but you missed the ball with that assertion.

Another thing the crab pointed out was that people would not be able to trade items and he boasted about this as if it were a good thing.  At least he is half right with this one but half right does not mean right.

I, for one, will be glad to not see people rolling on things just to trade them later.  That has always annoyed me and that is where GC hit the nail on the head.  Removing that possibility is a good thing but making things untradeable does bring up a lot of other issues.

My guild does a guild LFR every week and goes in with between 15-18 players.  Sometimes we bring lesser geared alts, non raiders, people that don't play often, whatever, the fact is, we play as a team.  We all roll on everything that anyone needs and we help gear the lesser geared players up.  It is good for the guild, good fun for everyone there, and it creates a great way to bridge the gap between the raiders and non raiders and create guild chemistry.

It brings people together and can also be used as an excellent recruiting tool in a world where people often do not want to leave their current guilds because they feel bound by reputation to them.

The new system means playing as a group will no longer offer any advantage.  The new system means that those lesser players we help out will now be looked at as players we are dragging along that are just not good enough and not players we are dragging along to help them catch up.

It could very well mean that we do not do guild runs any more because there is no real benefit of a guild run when it comes from a loot standpoint.  Why run as a group and make a set time for it if going alone or with a group will still end with the same results anyway?

Is this their way of trying to create community?  To make it that playing as a team means nothing now.

I am sure not everyone is like us but if none of us need something, we do not take it from others either.  We will pass on it and let someone else get it.  We are not jerks like that.

Taking away the ability to trade will ruin one of the best things we can do for fun as a guild that allows us to bring non raiders with us, the raiders.

Often I have been asked by someone to help them roll on something and I have.  Some people ask nicely, so I help.  This is good for the community as well, this is gone as well.

While trading in LFR can very well be a bad thing and I have seen it be abused, it is not always a bad thing and it is not abused by everyone.

Taking away the ability to trade items from the people that do not abuse the system because of the ones that do is not a solution.  You have to sharpen your pencils and rethink this one Blizzard.

Swing and a foul ball.  At least you got a piece of this one but that is still strike two ghostcrawler.

You've got one strike left. Will you get a hit or are you going to the bench with your tail between your legs?  Do crabs even have tails?

Lets take a look at offspec. Lets take a real close look at two situations that stand out in mind screaming look at me.

Being there will be no offspec loot awarded that means you need to run as what you want loot for.  Poor tanks and their massive long queue time.  Many tanks roll as DPS because they know if the two tanks do not need something they can win it.  They also do it because being DPS means a lot quicker of a queue time.

I know someone that has a full set of tank gear from the LFR and only runs it as DPS because he gets in faster that way.  Now he has not choice, he has to wait longer as a tank if he wants to get in.

So tank was situation one that was yelling look at me, but speaking louder by a long shot are the healers yelling look at me three times as loud.

Shadow priest running as healers.  Enhancement shaman running as healers.  Elemental shaman running as healers.  Protection paladins running as healers.  Retribution paladins running as healers.  Feral druids running as healers.  Balance druids running as healers. And soon guardian druids running as healers, winderwalker monks running as healers and brewmaster monks running as healers.

Are you aware of the amount of non healers that run the LFR as healers just for the instant queue?  They figure at the worst they can win tokens and if they get lucky some other stuff.  Sure, removing these non healers will increase the quality of healing in the LFR but it will also increase the queue time for everyone else.  Big time.

There are healing problems with the LFR as it is now, so what does blizzard do?  Create even less reason for people to run as a healer because they now went from a limited chance at getting gear for their main spec while running as a healer to absolutely zero chance at getting gear for their main spec running as a healer.

A huge swing and a miss.

The mighty ghostcrawler has just struck out.

Who is up next?

Mists will not be out for a long time still.  There is time to fix this blizzard, please get off your asses and give us a better solution.

Coming up next...  A better solution, because blizzard is not going to think of one themselves.


  1. Point 1: If you need 20 odd randomly selected other people to actually do the content, you cannot assert that person A has greater claim to loot than person B, regardless of performance. There's a system for kicking people already in place, and Person A (the chart topping rockstar) always has the option to drop and seek out a group that is much better than he is. Just so he doesn't feel like he SHOULD get loot, you understand...

    Point 2: We've had this discussion in my Guild already. The social aspects of the group going in together are PART of the reward. Not being able to game the system isn't really a bad thing, given that we aren't supposed to be doing it.

    Point 3: So people ignoring the queue rules is somehow Blizz' fault? If you queue as DPS, that SHOULD lock you out of healer gear, and vice versa. Longer queues offset by people actually planning on filling the correct role -- bummer, guess we wait -- and get a better run.

    LFR is a tool for giving a larger number of people access to Raid content, it should be a fundamentally different experience from normal Raiding.

    1. Point 1 - Not saying I agree with those attitudes, but if you look at the people in there you will see that usually 20 of the 25 people will cry like babies saying they deserve it more. They should just remove the need to cry all together.

      Point 2 - I can dungeon with my guild, raid with my guild, etc with my guild. This is a completely different type of content. If we can not use this content to help our guild mates I would just rather carry the players through the real thing. This is for carrying those players that want gear but you know are not worth gearing up in the real raid for whatever reason, attendance, ability, attitude, etc.

      Point 3 - Trust me I know. When I queue as a tank, I am usually 1 tanking it because the other tank is an idiot. When I queue as a healer I am usually three healing it with 2 other competent people and three people that checked healer just because it got them in faster. People should not be "locked out" of gear they can use. That is an elitist attitude I can not and will not ever subscribe to. The problem is they had to add the need + system which does not function correctly because people do not have any morals when it comes to rolling. See point 1, people are mostly jerks. Admittedly, I am different than most on my personal rolling rules. Even if I need someone for offspec I still do not roll need in LFR. I don't think it is right but I do not fault others who do it.

      Reserve judgement until you read my post tomorrow on a REAL fix and not some horrible idea that they are trying to pass off as a fix.

      As I wrote, doing this did not fix anything. It just turned the problem from facing left to facing right. It is still a problem even if you change the way it looks.

  2. Even if this new system is not perfect I honestly don't see how you can possibly say it doesn't fix anything. I personally think this new system is great. I really don't like the token/tooth idea you proposed earlier, I mean it would work but I think it would separate LFR from regular raiding even a further and I think there should be some randomness to it and some excitement to loot.

    For your token system, I can point on the calendar and say next Wednesday I will have my new sword and on the 26th I'll have everything I need. That seems wrong and not very exciting to me.

  3. "My guild does a guild LFR every week and goes in with between 15-18 players. Sometimes we bring lesser geared alts, non raiders, people that don't play often, whatever, the fact is, we play as a team. We all roll on everything that anyone needs and we help gear the lesser geared players up. It is good for the guild, good fun for everyone there..."

    I honestly doubt it was fun or good for the unfortunate 7-10 other players who had to compete against 15-18 people rolling on all the loot they could get their hands on to trade to their guildies. I usually respect your points of view, but in this case you acknowledge that the trading system is something unattractive that needs to go, and yet you seem to feel that your guild is justified in doing this to the PUGs.

    It may be easy to say that the PUGs would have done that, too, in any case, but not everyone does. It may sound like anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I myself and some of my friends found the Let's Make A Deal system extremely distasteful and thus never participated in it, in the belief that to be treated fairly you must start treating others fairly.

    - ellori

    1. TLDR: You can't complain about the loot system trading being a problem if you're among those who continue to contributing to/ creating the problem.

  4. I completely agree with Ellori. The fact that you mentioned how you queue for LFR with your guild but don't fill up the raid is a perfect example of why I hate the current system. If you had 25 people and did an in-house LFR that's one thing, but for the other 5-7 or so pugs that get thrown into your LFR they are basically screwed. Everyone from your guild will need on every single drop and pass it around after. The random pugs are at a great disadvantage.

    Not to mention LFR is not supposed to just be a lower tier raiding option for guilds.. it was created so that everyone can experience the raids that Blizz spends so much time on, and so that people that don't want to join a raiding guild can still have a chance at *current* gear and gear sets. This new change fits perfectly with that.

    There is no benefit to running with a group of friends on your token so you can all need and have a better chance at winning. There is no benefit to needing on gear you don't really need in hopes that you can trade it later on. There is no benefit to needing on gear just to be a dick and because you can.

    And as to your first point, coming from a once hardcore raider and current very casual LFR only raider.. I must say I don't agree with your sentiment regarding loot frustration. I get upset if player A gets an item I was really wanting (regardless of his performance, although if he was terrible it stings worse).. but I could care less if we both get it.

    I can honestly say any frustration about another player winning loot completely disappears when his win doesn't affect my loss. And that is where I think Blizzard really did a good job. It is the same thing (on a smaller scale) as not caring that the other people in the raid are also getting valor points as long as I am also getting them.

    I understand coming from your playstyle the lack of guild LFR's is frustrating.. I really do. But I have to say for the majority of players that use LFR, and especially for those players that *only* use LFR to raid these new changes are like a breath of fresh air. I for one can't wait till they are implemented and every time I see someone winning loot they don't need or later offering to trade it for another piece I take some solace in knowing that kind of behavior won't be around much longer.