- While there was a lot I did this weekend otherwise, I plan to go over a few of my random thoughts about blizzcon for this random thoughts.
- The best looking announcement thus far was the changes to transmog.
- And I am not even a mog person really.
- Just on my main, because I hate the look of "armor" so I go for a more clothing type look.
- The second best thing, or maybe the first best, not sure it really is a tie for awesome, is the cinematic.
- Say what you want about the game and the issues each and everyone one of us have it with sometimes, but blizzard has really gotten the art of the cinematic down to a science.
- The wrathgate remains my absolutely favorite but this one has to be top five.
- Perhaps even top three.
- My favorite part of it is one that I bet most of you never even saw.
- The exchange between King Varian Wrynn and Sylvanas was amazing.
- Slight, ever so slight, and I am sure nearly everyone that watched it even missed it, but to someone like it it spoke volumes.
- The old saying "I picture is worth a thousand words" really fits here.
- Seeing him nod to her and her nod to him really was a thousand words.
- It showed the respect he had for her as a fighter and she for him.
- It spoke to the enormity of the situation that two mortal enemies would show that respect when a bigger threat looms.
- A split second of cinematic, a story all its own.
- Watch it again if you did not notice it.
- Look at Varian when the horde ship first appears and take note of that ever so slight, blink and you miss it nod, and tell me that it does not change the entire feel of the cinematic after seeing it.
- It is not them working together because they want to, it is them working together because they have to.
- It is like an unspoken bond where each is telling the other, we stand together, I will protect you as if you were my own.
- Going to be so sad when it game comes out and we have to watch Varian die.
- If rumors are to be believed.
- It was the first time I could honestly say I liked the idea.
- But that is blizzards MO, make it is you start to like someone and then kill them for impact.
- Their writers are, to put it politely, hacks.
- They can not tell a deep and meaningful story with any real substance, so they go for the quick impact.
- Put some time into a character, put them center stage, make people like them, kill them for impact.
- It is an old tactic used by piss poor writers to create feeling, connection.
- But it works, so even if it is poor writing, it is why they still do it.
- The writers need to take a page from the cinematic teams book.
- You do not need to beat someone over the head with something to tell a good story, you just need to tell a good story.
- That nod, it was awesome, and it told a better story, a more compelling story, than all of warlords put together.
- Back to transmog for another note of awesome.
- They are going to go over every quest we have ever done and award us every single piece of gear we collected from those quests, and even pieces of gear we did not take but could have used from those quests, and add them to our transmog options.
- Can you say "home run"?
- Blizzard really hit the ball out of the park with this one.
- Does this mean I am going to get my staff back from the level 60 epic hunter quest?
- I got rid of it so long ago but I would like it back.
- When they added transmog and I was looking for things to mog my hunter into all the best gear for me was from quest rewards.
- Many cases rewards I collected, and vendored off years eariler.
- I was so upset to lose those possible transmog options as the quest item were probably the best looking gear ever.
- At least for someone like me that like the minimalist look.
- Great work blizzard.
- They answered that question before it needed to be asked, they did the right thing.
- Yes, blizzard did the right thing.
- Without needing to be pushed to do it.
- Without the need of hundreds of threads asking for it.
- They are building it right from the get go.
- I am dumbfounded, I did not think they had it in them.
- And having mog sets, something people have been asking for.
- Everything about the mog system is just so well done it seems.
- I don't even get into mogging and I am loving it.
- You know what my favorite part of it was?
- You are going to laugh.
- You might even call me crazy.
- Well, I am, so that is fine.
- But I love that it is also adding a collection for it.
- So now people like me that love to collect stuff will go around and collect all the hunter loot.
- Even if I do not mog into it, if there are 500 helms, I will make every effort to get all 500 helms.
- I am weird that way.
- I most likely would never mog into any of them, but I will sure as hell collect them because I dig things like that.
- And it was only in passing but I thought I heard something I have to ask if many anyone else did.
- Are these mog collections account wide?
- So all my hunters would have all the things my main has now?
- That would be freaking awesome.
- My mog my hunter uses has most of the pieces removed from the game.
- To be able to have all my hunters wearing that mog would be awesome.
- Level 60 epic bow on all of them.
- Woot woot.
- Please say I heard that right because if I didn't I might cry.
- And the best gear news of all?
- You can hide shoulders now.
- That is so awesome because blizzard rarely makes a decent pair of shoulders.
- My druid is wearing ones right now I got from HFC that I love, but I can not remember the last time I said that about shoulders.
- Actually, I don't think I have ever said that about shoulders.
- I am thankful for them being able to be hidden now.
- No more freak of nature shoulders for me on my characters thank you very much.
- How about the trading personal loot option they are adding.
- Another winner that should have been in the game from the get go.
- If you have an equal or greater item level piece and you win something on a bonus roll you can trade it to anyone in the raid.
- Awesome.
- And about time.
- Something you have to wonder why it takes them so long to add obvious solutions.
- Challenge modes turning into rifts from diablo?
- No thank you blizzard.
- It works in diablo because you get loot success or failure.
- It works in diablo because you can do them over and over again, even a hundred times in a day if you wish.
- It will not work in warcraft because you get 1 per week.
- It will not work in warcraft because if you fail you get nothing.
- One disconnect, you lose you keystone for the week and your chance at loot.
- One emergency where someone needs to step away an you lose your keystone for the week or your chance at loot.
- One pug that joins only to be a jerk and screw other people out of the chance at loot (and yes this will happen) and you lose your keystone and your chance at loot for the week.
- Sorry blizzard, bad idea is bad.
- Go back to the drawing board before you even consider moving forward with this.
- Because right now, it is a dreadfully horrible idea that was not thought out and will be more annoying than enjoyable.
- Keystone challenge modes = failure, and they have not even come out yet.
- Mythic staying 20 player = failure.
- Yes, while I agree it is much better from a challenge perspective, and much better from a design perspective to make the challenge, it has been a failure this expansion and it will be a failure next expansion.
- They need to rethink that.
- Where is the motivation for casual guilds that know they will never have 20 player to even raid.
- I know many players that just quit after normal now.
- Why do heroic when you would only be doing heroic to get to mythic and you can not do mythic because you do not have 20 players?
- So there is no reason to do heroic.
- So guilds like mine suffer, guilds like every one on my server suffer.
- One of my guilds on another server did archie on normal 3 weeks after release and stopped raiding.
- Yeap, three weeks after HFC came out, they guild stopped raiding.
- Why?
- No reason to do heroic.
- Heroic is a stepping stone to mythic and they could not do mythic, so no need to do heroic.
- And oddly enough, when they made the decision to quit raiding the guild did not fall apart.
- They all just quit, together.
- 20 man mythic hurt the game way more than it helped it.
- Blizzard has to realize that.
- They are doubling down on mythic trying it for another expansion at a locked 20.
- And the only way that I can see that working is if they greatly decrease the difficulty of it, so I guild like mine can take the lesser players just to get to the 20 people.
- But if they do that, it would not longer be mythic.
- So that completely defeats the purpose of it.
- Yeah, 20 man mythic needs to go.
- Oh how about the profession news.
- Nodes are on a per person basis now.
- Can someone say about freaking time?
- Seriously, what took so long blizzard.
- I do worry about professions the way they are changing them.
- You need to be active to get all the patterns?
- You need to level them up to level 3 by being active?
- So how exactly is this going to work with alts now?
- I can no longer have my alts make things for me because they exist purely for their professions?
- Fuck you blizzard.
- Excuse my language, but really.
- They are called profession mules for a reason.
- I like them being there so I can be self sufficient.
- I am going to really hate this crap if I need to be "active" on all my characters just to make one character have what he needs to have.
- Seriously blizzard, fuck you.
- It is a game, not a job.
- Stop taking the fun out of things.
- But maybe I am over reacting.
- I did see one thing that leads me to believe it is quite possible something I predicted a long time back might come true and all professions would be account wide.
- If that is the case, my main could do all the professions and level them all up, and I would be fine with that really.
- It is possible too.
- Look back at the screen shots, if you can find them, see if you see what I saw.
- One screen shot had someone with what looked like was 4 professions.
- Another had someone with 3 professions.
- Not "looked like" three professions, absolutely was three professions.
- So there are a few possible things this could mean.
- 1) it is an alpha test thing were the characters have multiple professions so they can test them all.
- 2) they are increasing us to 3 professions per character, as there was absolutely 3 professions in the screen shots.
- 3) or professions are now account wide like so many other things.
- I am hoping for #3, not because I predicted it and I love saying "I told you so" but because the other option is that I have to active play alts just for their professions so one character will have everything they need.
- Sorry, like I said, this is a game not a job.
- I want to play my main and have my alts support him.
- I do not want to be forced to play my alts all the time to level up their professions just to support my main.
- About the demon hunter.
- No tank news really, that is what I was looking for.
- DPS news was a snorefest.
- Nothing to see here, move along.
- Really see no reason this class was added at the moment.
- It does not fill a required role in the game, there are already too many melee DPS classes and the issue with tanking is because there are too few of them, it is because people do not like to tank.
- So the class serves no purpose, it doesn't look overly interesting (to me) so it is a complete waste of resources to add it.
- Lets hope when they flesh out the tanking spec there is something new and interesting there because there is nothing new and interesting from a DPS perspective in my opinion.
- Flying will not be added on release again.
- And this is proof positive that blizzard does not learn from their mistakes.
- How can a company screw up so badly one expansion, then recognize they screwed up and try to make up for it, and then make the same exact screw up in the next expansion while they were still trying to repair the damage that mistake did to this expansion?
- Seriously what the hell are they smoking over in the blizzard headquarters because it is making them not care what happens to the game.
- About changes to classes.
- Hunters looks screwed every which way they can be.
- Marks seems to be losing its identity and becoming a hybrid between marks and survival.
- BM seems to be saying closest to what it has been, but some changes that are completely unnecessary.
- And survival, no, just no, what they are doing is a crying shame and shows blizzard cares little for their player base or the history of the game.
- I said it before and I will say it again, if blizzard really wanted hunters to have a melee spec they should have added a 4th spec.
- Don't laugh at hunters, the next class the screw over could be yours.
- Maybe next time they will say, we do not like paladins being able to DPS so we are making retribution a second tank spec.
- Maybe they will say, we do not like shaman having a melee DPS so we are switching enhancement to ranged.
- They should not be changing the identity of a spec because they "feel" like it.
- Even more so when there is no reason to.
- There are already too many melee specs, they are adding a heroic class melee spec, they do not need to move hunters into melee too.
- There is no game play reason to do it, and no logical reason to do it.
- They are changing disc back to atonement healers.
- Not sure why they nerfed it to begin with.
- No wait, I lie, I know exactly why they moved away from it.
- Because it is too powerful.
- It needs to be.
- As it is not aimed healing for it to be effective it needs to be a little over powered.
- The problem is that by being a little over powered, as you get more gear, it becomes way over powered, and that is why they nerfed it to death this expansion.
- Do I like disc is going full on atonement again? Absolutely.
- Do I have faith they will do it right? Absolutely not.
- It will either be too weak and you could never heal even a five man with it and it would only be good as a third healer option in a group, or it will be too strong and you would only need DPS dealing healers like disc.
- I am not sure they can create a decent balance.
- Honestly, I am not sure it is even possible to do so.
- Hope they do not screw it up.
- I loved their description for the changes to bear tanking.
- A bear should not be dodging, it should be in your face taking damage.
- I hope, really pray and hope that they can make their description work and not turn bears in mana sponges.
- I like the idea that they take all the damage and can handle it.
- Seems to fit what a bear would be like and it could be a really fun play style, if they add more survival cooldowns to it, otherwise it would be just a mana sponge and death will be soon to follow.
- But the idea that the more damage they take, the more they absorb could be a fun play style.
- Others they mentioned like arcane mage, fury warriors and death knights with their runes all seem to be in an effort to streamline the classes and make them easier.
- Which I am sure a vast majority of the player base will be very happy with.
- The classes, nearly all of them, have gotten too complex for the average players.
- So much so that the majority of players could not even come close to playing most classes to their potential.
- Heck, look at the two easiest, in terms of buttons, classes out there right now in hunters and rogues, and see how few of them actually do decent.
- If that does not show you that the classes are too complex for most players, I do not know what will.
- Not sure what to make the the changes to shadow priest.
- Sounds interesting, seems like it will be a clusterfuck.
- Spend the entire fight trying to build into insanity, burn while in insanity, spend time trying to get back there.
- Are their going to be useless outside of insanity?
- Sure seems so from that short description we got.
- Hope that does not end up being the case.
- Seems like they are trying a bit too hard to make classes unique.
- I am sure some classes will get screwed in the attempt.
- Sure seems like shadow will be one the ones that get screwed unless they do not balance insanity right.
- Now to class halls, we will have class garrisons now instead of personal garrisons.
- At least that is what I seem to get from what little we know.
- Okay, might be cool, but over all seems kind of useless.
- The class halls will basically just be a daily hub, so to speak, as it seems.
- So hunters will go one place to pick up their dailies, rogues will go to another, priests their own, etc.
- Not bad, but nothing game changing.
- How about that news that drops all over the world, from questing to raiding can be any item level.
- With luck...
- Seriously blizzard, more RNG?
- Stealing another page from diablo it seems.
- I can see people already posting on the forums for their grinding spots.
- Where they just grind mobs in the world trying to get lucky and get that one good drop.
- Don't worry, this will never make it live, not in a million years.
- Top end guilds will cry like babies that they are "forced" to grind mobs in the world to get the best gear for the world first race and blizzard will cave to them like a house of cards on a windy day, just like they always do.
- But I agree it is a good idea to make killing world mobs more interesting after we reach max level.
- As it stands now, once you reach max level you want to avoid everything in the world as much as possible as it is just a waste of time.
- But the idea that it could get you a mythic raid level piece, with luck of course, means it is not "as" annoying to have to stop and kill stuff.
- So it has potential.
- It is just not attractive for people like me who have no luck.
- Oh joy, another expansion of me getting no gear because my luck sucks.
- I am not going through that again blizzard.
- If you plan on everything being completely luck based, count me out.
- Give me ways to earn my gear, please, I am begging you.
- Do not make me have to luck into it.
- That is not a fun or compelling game style.
- Unless you really increase the drop rate of things to be something along the lines of you will get a top quality piece once every 100 or so mobs.
- Did you see that we will have a boat load in legendary items?
- I think I saw a back, neck and boots, there could be more.
- Each seems to have class specific bonuses.
- I guess they really wanted to removed the "legendary" from a "legendary" item if we are going to be getting flooded with it.
- I like the idea that we will be able to upgrade gear by "disenchanting" old gear.
- Not sure it if is really disenchanting, just using that word for now.
- But what you get from it is used to upgrade pieces.
- So weeks like this week were I managed to get 5 pieces were I needed none of them I could go "disenchant" or whatever we decide to call it and use those to upgrade a piece of gear I currently have.
- That seems like a good idea.
- Also seems like another diablo idea.
- Seems like legion steals a lot from diablo this time around.
- I would like to see them steal one more thing from diablo.
- And bring scenarios back with the diablo idea of just a massive amount of mobs a small group goes in and slaughters and they have a chance to drop awesome loot.
- Now that could be fun.
- If they are going to keep stealing diablo stuff might as well steal the fun stuff too.
- As long as they realize that some things will not work.
- As I mentioned with the challenge mode thing.
- Can't use the warcraft weekly lockout design with the diablo key idea.
- Some ideas translate well, others do not.
- This one will not, for the main reason that you can spam stuff in diablo, so if you fail no one minds, but if you are locked out for a week, it will make people hate other people.
- Making people hate other people because they screwed them out of their weekly lock out is not a good way to build up community in an MMO.
- Just a friendly word of advice from someone that apparently knows a lot better how people react than blizzard does.
- There is so much more I wanted to comment on.
- I am sure I am going to remember some of it as soon as I hit post.
- But that is enough babble for now.
- Hope you saw stuff you liked at blizzcon.
- Have a great day.
Sunday on the Promenade 241
20 hours ago
The real issue with the keystones will be that people will drop group as soon as they see that the timer will not be met. People will perceive groups as fail if they "lose" the opportunity for the absolute best gear attainable. If they don't meet the timer, they will leave and the dungeon will be a fail and the keystone lost. I guarantee that if they implement their current design philosophy, they will end up having to change it within a month of release as the complaints will be deafening. Those in larger guilds that can do these in guild runs will not have that issue, but the great numbers of us that pug will stop running them completely within a few weeks of launch if the current design is implemented and the results are as I predict..
ReplyDeleteI don't see the way the announced it going live. It could be a real problem, or better yet, will be a real problem if it does.
DeleteI think they were just talking "ideas" and had not had the time to really think this one out yet. Or at least I hope so. Because you know for a fact that is exactly what will happen. First pull does not go down as fast as possible and someone says, we have no chance at the timer and leaves and everyone else is screw. Or even worse, now the others leave because they know you will not make it, and you end up not even being able to "try" to finish it because as soon as one drops the entire group disbands and you wasted your key.
Challenge mode should have timers and specific loot. Keystone dungeon runs should not have a timer.
ReplyDeleteI agree 100%.
DeleteIt should just be get it done, even more so when you lost your key for the entire week if you fail.
I don't get how most people would have never seen the nod between Sylvannis and Varian. The cinematic made a big deal about trusting old enemies and then she appears so even the thickest of people should have gotten the hint.
ReplyDeleteI talked to a hell of a lot of people over the weekend. Not even one noticed the nod, not until I mentioned it and they went back to watch it a second time. It was very subtle.
DeleteI disagree, Blizzard should continue making raids that people quit after normal because if they make a compelling raid game, it would make me want to play for a lot longer and then I will not have time for other things! I thank Blizzard for thinking about their customers and making them bored so that they will unsubscribe and do more important things with their time!
ReplyDeleteI never thought about ti that way.
DeleteFrom my end, someone that wants to do mythic but keeps losing people so can never get 20, never the less finish heroic because they all know we do not have 20, it sucks.
But you make a good point, they have effectively made a great many players not want to raid any more by doing so. And for them, it is a very good thing.
Challenge Dungeons - Missing the timer means you don't upgrade your keystone, you still get the loot though.
ReplyDeleteHunters - It feels to me like they are giving the different specs a true identity, not taking it away.
What am I missing?
20-man Mythic - I like it the way it is, it seems perfectly tuned, but I think they should open up cross-realm a lot faster.
Maybe have a set time of 8 weeks on a raid, give out realm awards for the top guild at the end of that time, then open up x-realm.
You get loot, you don't get the best loot. Hence, people will leave if they perceive that the timer will be missed.
Delete•If you are trying Level 6 Halls of Valor and just barely fail, you will get a Level 6 quality reward chest for your group at the end of the run, but you now have a depleted Level 6 Halls of Valor keystone.
DeleteYou still get the loot, the time only matters for the Keystone. Does it say something different somewhere else? It needs to be this way or you and Grumpy are right, it will fail.
@Wes M
DeleteMy hunter feelings post will be tomorrow, I delve into it a little more there on why I am not happy with the changes.
As for the CM, if you are not making the timer I see people dropping out, which means you do not finish it, which mean you do not even get your loot just for finishing it. That is my worry. I like what someone else said. Remove the timer and then the issue is no big deal.
They really need to rethink their whole keystone thing, as it is presented it is a bad idea. It will create animosity among players, not community, and the game does not need more animosity between players.
Why would people drop out though?
DeleteThe timer only relates to the Keystone...
If it's your keystone, you aren't going to drop.
If it's not your keystone, you don't care about the timer because you are getting the loot anyway
If you don't get the loot then I agree, but everything I have heard/read says you get the loot.
Looking forward to the hunter post. It's just an alt for me so don't have the attachment that the long-term hunter mains like you have
DeleteWhy would people drop out?
DeleteTime is the most valuable resource in game and in life. While I might be the type of person that would not drop a group that is going to miss the timer, because I like to consider myself not a jerk, some people would.
Lets say for example it is a pure pug and someone who only really cares about themselves is in the group. Even if it is your keystone as soon as they see they are not making the timer they might leave the group to find one that will make the timer, and in the process, get better rewards. Because in the end they are looking out for themselves in the time they have to play, and making the timer would mean the best rewards.
Now I could be wrong, this is absolutely true, I've seen people drop dungeons after one wipe even if the group was moving smooth otherwise and you were not on a timer. Do you really think these people would stay if there were any slow downs or wipes in a timed mode? Even if it were not their key? I think not.
Sorry, I do not have a great deal of faith in my fellow player, I have seen to many people doing selfish things.
"see they are not making the timer they might leave the group to find one that will make the timer, and in the process, get better rewards"
DeleteThere are no 'better rewards' for beating the timer.
Beating the timer upgrades the keystone of the person who initiated the dungeon. As far as I can tell, it does absolutely nothing else.
If it's not your keystone, you are only there for the loot. There is no better loot for beating a timer Why would you leave?
Thing is, why would they drop out, especially if it's not their keystone?
DeleteYou miss hall of valor rank 6 timer, you get rank 6 loot, Good thing, it was not your keystone, you get rank 6 loot and you can still use, let say....your rank 4 helheim keystone, and get a shot at some rank 4 loot (or better if you make the timer)
Dropping when it's not your keystone and your not going to make the timer doesn't make any sense, cause it would be fully wasted time.
The only one that actually care about making the timer is the owner of the keystone,
And per Ion words :
If you are trying Level 6 Halls of Valor and just barely fail, you will get a Level 6 quality reward chest for your group at the end of the run, but you now have a depleted Level 6 Halls of Valor keystone. You can try again and if you manage to beat the time, you will upgrade your keystone to a fresh empowered Level 7 keystone that will give you loot.
So even if you miss out, you just have to find a better group to recharge your keystone.
I REALLY don't see the issue with keystones, it will just be EXCATLY like high-end raiding, bang your head on the wall until you succeed, witht the added advantage that you get a little power boost on your first fail.
I can't find any real problem in the system.
People drop for the "fail group" reason, their keystone or not, it will happen. That is just a flat out fact. I've done enough pug content in my life to know that.
DeleteAs for what you said Wes, I agree 100% personally. If it is not my keystone, why should I care if we do not make the timer. I would stay just for the hell of it.
But lets say it was your keystone, wouldn't you be major league pissed if some "pug" screwed it up, or had to take a cig break, or over pulled with barrage and wiped you, or even something as innocent as disconnected, or whatever other way they could screw you up
My issue is not so much anything other than the "one shot a week". It works in diablo because you can always do it over. It will not work if it is a one and done thing each week.
It will only create animosity among the community and this community does not need any more of that.
@Anon
Someone gets in a group, the group is moving real slow, sure they can get it done, but that person only has a short amount of time to play. So they will drop group because they know they will never finish it, even if the timer does not matter. They will leave as soon as it seems the group is going to take any longer than just "blowing through it at the speed of light".
Heck, heroic dungeons are fast even with a slow group and people still drop for no other reason than the run is too slow. Do you really think they would stay for "harder" content if there is any sign that it might be moving slower than the pace they want?
The issue with keystones are they are not like in diablo, they are one and done. You get one bad group, one person that needs to take a break, one person that disconnects, and bam, you are done for the week, screwed, no chance to move further.
If you do not see the issue with this than I don't believe you have 1) looked hard enough at the issue, or 2) experienced enough pugging to realize how often this will happen.
But that where you're wrong.
DeleteIf the timer fail you're not done, you can join other groups, you can recharge your stone, so it's the same at failling to kill a boss raid.
That system will not be queable, you can only join with your own group, so if your group is a "fail group", you can only blame youself.
I really feel like you didn not understand the system AT ALL.
let say the timer for hall of valor is 15 min, after like 6-7 min you realise that it will take you 20 min. Why would you drop group, waste the already 7 passed minute, to go back to group finder and try to find another group (wich may take you way more time tahn just finishing that run) rather thatn just finishing the run and get the loot?
If you only have, let say 40 min to play, you already know it's unlikely you'll get time for 2 dungeons anyway.
There is still a lot we do not know about it, but what I gather from reading it is you, as that character, get one per week. Once it is done it is done.
DeleteIf that is indeed the case, this is a horrible idea. As far as we know with as little that has been said, that is the case.
Hey, I am not saying it is "smart" to drop a group that is half done with only 7 minutes left. I already said even if I did not need the run I would stay and help even perfect strangers. I am just saying that is what "random people" will do. Why do they do it? I have no clue, they are idiots, that is really the only answer. I have seen people rage quit standing at the last boss in a heroic dungeon. I have seen pugs quit because it was a "fail raid" after w one shot the first 5 bosses of a raid. I have seen people rage quit because they lost a roll, rage quit because the item did not drop, rage quit before the boss they said they were actually there for. Pug people, in general, are not the most reliable types. So do not ask me why someone would leave with only 7 minutes left because I do not know. But what I do know is that will leave. That is an absolute fact.
Either way, with the little we know about it thus far, it seems like a dreadful idea. I like what someone else said, remove the timer and tada, you have a winner for a MMO like this. As long as you "finish" the dungeon you can either upgrade your keystone or take the loot for that level. Now that is how it should be done for a random group setting like people will want to do it with.
Well, I send you back to Ion interview, front page of MMO champion right now.
DeleteYou finish dungeon, no matter the timer, you get loot.
You finish within the timer you get upgraded keystone.
You failed the timer? you can run it again to try to get a new stone, but you don't get loot.
That how it works according to Ion.
system seems perfect to me tbh.
BTW, that means, assuming you start with a level 1 keystone :
Delete-you run level 1 CM finish in timer, you get loot, and level 2 stone.
-you continue to do a level 2, you finish in timer, get loot and new stone.
Assuming you fail at let say, level 7, taht mean you got 7 loots from one person stone.
Seems REALLY decent to me
Now the big question is this...
DeleteDo the other 4 people get loot too even if they did not use a keystone? Or is it only the person with the keystone that gets the loot?
That would be the big thing really.
Still, 1 keystone per week = bad design. It works in diablo because you can do it over and over again. It will not work in warcraft with 1 per week.
I don't care how you try to sugar coat it. If I am using my key, and the healer DCs and I end up losing my key because I did not make the timer and can not move up to level 8 and have to stop at 7 for the week, I am going to be pissed. Sorry, you can not, will not, and should not even consider changing my mind on this. I am thinking the logical approach, you are thinking "in a perfect world" were nothing bad can happen. I will bet you every cent I own and every cent I will ever own, that your "in a perfect world" scenario will never happen. You will lose keys to DCs, to someone dropping, to an emergency, to a mistake over pull, etc. It will happen and being you can not "start over" like you can in diablo and you end up screwed for the week, it is not a good design.
but you DON'T have one keystone per week, you have however many you want.
Deleteyou can RECHARGE your stone if you fail the timer, that seems to be what you don't get, if timer fail, it does not matter, your stone can STILL be used to try to reach timer and continue to progress.
I say it once again ;
you have REALLY NOT understood the system, and that's from where all you worries come.
I'm fine with you not liking the system, but ONLY if you understand it, which right now, is not the case
I was coming here to post that exact thing after I just read it. Being you can recharge it, it is somewhat okay. Still have to do the dungeon all over again if you fail, which seems like a bunch of wasted time if you ask me, but at least it is something.
DeleteIt is not that I did "not understand" the system, it was that what I was commenting on did not say anything about recharging.
I was commenting on the information available to me, you are commenting reading further information revealed later.
Of course when you have more information things look different. But remember, everything in our exchange was before they mentioned it could be recharged. So you can not say "you did not understand it could be recharged" because at the time we were talking it could not be recharged to our knowledge.
Well, there HAVE TO be a consequence in failling.
DeleteBeing that you got loot anyway, you're more likely to succeed.
Keep in mind that this is supposed to be an alternate gearing path to raiding, fo those that want challenges without the burden of managing 20 people.
The equivalent in raid would more or less be "ho you failed to kill the boss? Here is some gear from previous boss, but you won't get loot from this one when you kill it"
Of course, there is the problem of loot table, but you get the idea.
No upgrade is the consequence for failing.
DeleteThe way it seems is you can reactivate it by running a second time.
I was under the impression that you only got one piece of loot per week which was the max level you got to that week. I could be wrong of course.
If that is indeed the case, then why even have the keystones at all. Just let people try it as hard as they can get it. It is not like you will get loot from 1, 2, 3, etc all the way up. If you made it to completing 7 that week, 7 will be your reward.
The keystone, as I see it, is just a way to "force" you to have to repeat the same level 3 times to move on, and that just seems wasteful to me, time wise.
For example, as I am reading not to mean now at least, I know still more info needs to come. First time you fail. Second time you pass so you reactivate it. Third time you pass so you upgrade. It just seems wasteful time wise. I play a lot when I play and I still would not waste all that time just to move up a level. How would someone that plays less get any enjoyment out of doing the same run 3, and maybe more, times for no real reward?
If you complete it, no matter what, you should be allowed to move to the next one. If you can not complete the next one, you will get the 7 reward at the end of the week, not the 8. So repeating it 3 times just so you can try 8 seems very time wasteful in my opinion. That is what I am saying (now with the updated information).
I wish they would expand on it a bit more. I do see now why the timer needs to be there but I am still torn. Even if I do now agree with the timer I hate the idea that I would get stuck needing to do the same dungeon level over again, maybe multiple times, due to someone disconnecting. They need to find a safe guard from that happening or they need to remove the timer.
Well it's meant to ba an end game progression replacing raids for those taht doesn't want to raid, so it have to be tome-consuming in a way.
DeleteThink of it like a boss in a raid, you can't go to the next boss until you kill the current one.
Same here, you can move on to level X+1 if you don't beat level X.
Keystones are here for 3 things :
1-Determine the level of the dungeon.
2-Present you with a challenge you have a resonable chance to accomplish
3-Prevent people to run the same dungeon over and over again cause it's the fastest.
The most important point in my opinion is the last.
Imagine if any boss in HFC citadel could drop any loot, and you could run it any number of time, it would just be a bit more difficult each time, poeple will just pick the easiest one and farm it.
Pushing to highest level is at some point, pure bragging right, if you just want loot, and don't really care of the level, you could just sign up for group doing level ones all week long.
The system seems really flexible to me, all the while allowing to get challenge for those who want to.
We all have things we like and I am sure we all play for different reasons. I would rather it be for "fun" with some gearing options than a replacement for max level raiding. Sure it is fun thinking I could get mythic level gear without doing mythic, but I would rather it be "fun" and get easy normal level gear for alts and have that be the gear cap.
DeleteTo each their own. It will take time to find out who this is intended for but as it seems thus far, it is not intended for anyone with a job if this design is how it goes live.
Think of it this way, the average run, even a fast run, is no less than 15 minutes unless you are really ultra skilled. Now lets say you want to get to rank 20 to get the rank 20 reward.
With zero failures that means 5 hours, and that is not even considering that you might fail requiring additional runs. That is also not considering that the harder it gets the longer the runs will get. So lets say each run take a tiny bit longer as it gets harder, and you miss a few times at those high levels, you could be pushing yourself into the 8 hour range. All for the chance at 1 piece of loot that might not even be something you need.
Reward should equal time investment. Now, for example, if you could choose the piece you win, than for 8 hours time it "might" be worth it to get that one trouble piece you just can not seem to get, but for random, no thank you. The game already has too much random BS in it, it does not need more. Even more so when you need to invest that much time into doing and and convince 4 others to invest that time into it with you, for nothing on their end.
Like I said, each person has what they would like it to be, and for me I would rather it drop lesser gear and be something I can have fun with on alts, than drop higher gear and feel like I have to do it on my main.
It will not come out the way it was announced, of this I am sure. Lets just hope there is some sort of between ground. (hoping for the choose the gear you win at the end of the week being that between ground)
I think there is some confusion between the loot chest and the weekly reward...
DeleteYou get the loot chest from completing a run with a live Keystone.
So, if you start at 1 and get to tier 7, you will have a loot chest from each dungeon. I.e. 7 rewards of increasing value.
There is also a weekly reward that is determined by the highest level you reached for that week and is a one-off, weekly reward.
This sounds like it would really suit your alts idea Grumpy... run a few dungeons, not particularly high level so not that difficult, have some fun and gain a few rewards. Get an extra reward at the end of the week.
It does lead to a couple of questions though...
1. How hard will it be to find a group willing to run a dungeon with no loot chest to replenish your depleted keystone?
2. Can they continue week on week, or do you have to start from level 1 each time? Extend lockouts like raids maybe?
3. Given that these dungeons will start above Heroic dungeons, how many tiers will it take to reach lfr reward level, normal reward level, etc?
I am liking the idea in principle but we will have to wait and see if they can implement it well.
Now that seems like too much loot to me, if you are getting one on every single run. But I guess that is the trade off for possibly losing a stone and needing to recharge it.
DeletePerhaps it can work out that way, but that seems like a lot of loot once people get good at them and can easily do 10-15 levels per week.
Being you seem to have a better grasp of it than I, does everyone get an item, or just the one person using the keystone? I did not see an answer when I breezed through it.
My guesses to your questions.
1) It will be impossible for people without a guild. What random people would want to help you with nothing to gain from it?
2) I am guessing they might offer extending lockouts.
3) Being LFR is easier than a heroic dungeon normally I would say level 2 should be LFR item level.
Of course, just guessing based on my opinions, I have no real answers for you. lol
That should have been another question... how many people get loot from the loot chest?
DeleteThere has been no indication so far that I can find.
It definitely won't be just the keystone-holder though... My guess is a Personal Loot style roll with a guaranteed minimum of 1-2 pieces, Blizz loves the RNG after all.
1. That's my fear too, it will be almost impossible to replenish a stone.
Very occasionally, you might get a group that just missed out on the timer and will stick around for one more attempt.
More likely though, you will be trawling the premade groupfinder for someone with a live key and hoping to join their group.
Still too many questions unanswered but it's good to see Blizzard making the effort.
Just think of how hard it will be to get a group. If only the person with the keystone gets loot, what incentive do the other 4 have to help you? Even more so as it starts to get harder and harder? Maybe you could grab four friends for a quick and easy run just to help you out, but I do not see that lasting for long as everyone will have things they want to do for themselves as well instead of just helping you.
DeleteThere are a lot of questions that still need answering really. But I think that one is one of the biggest ones. What incentive do the people that are not using a keystone have to run it?
I think the high-level drops from completely random mobs is an absolutely terrible idea.
ReplyDeleteIf they insist on implementing it then I hope the drops are so rare that they are impossible to grind... I would much rather never be lucky enough to get a piece than have the gearing process become grinding mobs until something good drops.
As I said, that part will never make it live. The top guilds would all complain that they are "forced" to do that to complete for world first / server first and complain and it will get scraped.
DeleteHowever, adding some reason to kill mobs in the world once you reach max level is required.
I look at it the other way around. If they do add it, the drops should be easy enough to get even if you do it solo. If they make them mega rare than people will just use bots to do it and grind for them. They would be better to hand out more of them than less.
Not to mention, if you give a bad player the best gear in the game they will still be a bad player. So gear should never be "hard" to get, it is not the gear that makes the player it is the player that makes the gear.
It can't be both high level and easy to obtain or it will just make everything else irrelevant, starting with dungeons.
DeleteIt needs to be so rare that you can't use it as a gearing route and is just a nice bonus when it happens.
The bots are a whole other issue that Blizz needs to be considerably better at dealing with, but you can't design content around them
I agree, but there needs to be some sort of balance. If it is so rare that you can not use it for a gearing route, why have it?
DeleteThey want to add something that makes it "worthwhile" to be out in the world. For something to be "worthwhile" there has to be a reasonable chance to get it.
Now look at world drops this expansion, the BoE from the beginning of the expansion. While I got a few from some salvage crates, I never once got one in the world. That would NOT be worthwhile to grind for it, the drop rate is too low. And remember, you are talking to someone that grinded all the reputations to maximum, on alliance and horde side. So I killed a boat load of mobs and some and I never saw one of those BoEs drop. Yet someone in my guild got 3 in one day once not even trying. So they are extremely rare, but occasionally obtainable with high luck.
So, as I said, if they want it to be something that makes killing mobs in the world "worthwhile" they need to have a much higher drop rate than the BoEs this expansion did. Because it is not worth killing anything, thus not worth being out in the world to kill them, if they have low drop rates.
It is a balancing act that blizzard will surely screw up. It needs to drop stuff that is good enough to want to be out there killing stuff and a drop rate that is reasonable enough to make you want to do it with your free time while not making everything else less rewarding at the same time.
Honestly I think the best route is a flat out counter system. Count how many mobs you kill, give you something every 100 mobs. Then make the rarity of it, being (using todays numbers) 610, 630, 650, 670, 690 or 710 be the random number generator. But the gear should come easy enough itself.
I think you covered it in the first line. why have it?
DeleteIt depends what Blizzard want it to be before we can decide where to draw the line. If it is part of gearing, then by all means, make it fairly common drop or your counter idea.
I don't think they want it to be part of gearing though, we will have to wait and see what they actually want it to be.
I think they do want it to be part of gearing. They said, if I remember correctly, the most efficient way to gear up will be raids, dungeons and then world content.
DeleteNow we can only try to interpret what we believe that to mean but to me I read it as raiding would be the most consistent way to gear up as it drops "raid" level gear. Dungeons would be next as they would sometimes have upgrades that are "raid level" and then world drops would be third as there would be a small chance for it to drop "raid" level gear.
So yes, I do believe they actually want it to be part of the gearing process. Again, just thinking about it based on what they said. We can not be sure their meaning however, but that is how I read it, that world drops are meant to be the third best way to gear up.
Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:
ReplyDeleteI really want to like Legion, but there is a lot that may yet sink it for me. The start of the flight achievement with no end to in sight already means I won't buy at release. Gaining flight with the end of the game in sight is not using flight correctly. Still once done, it is better for the alts to follow. Even so, not knowing how and when during the expansion that flight will be re-enabled is not satisfactory at all. Not even close, and right there is a deal breaker for me.
Not the only deal breaker by no means. The massive changes to classes and specs bothers me. It is something I have never approved of. A decision that Blizzard loves to make over and over. This time around, my beloved Priests are likely not going to even come close to be understandable on day one. I skimmed the information and what they are proposing is pretty much going to make me lose interest in the class. Heck, the hunter class changes made more sense than the priest and I don't even really play a hunter nor do I really like the hunter changes all that much. Maybe the actual changes are going to be better than they sound when it comes time to play, but that remains to be seen.
Also the overall story is such a poorly done thing, that it almost makes me cry. I can't call it amateur because that would imply the love of the thing was the reason it was written, and I see no love at all in Blizzard's story telling via the game. More like a hack job of writing the story to my way of thinking.
It isn't just the untimely deaths as Grumpy talked about though that is certainly a good thing to note as not being up to snuff. I already knew just from looking at the map, that Blizzard has no understanding of geography and how rivers, mountains, lakes and so on are actually placed in a world (real or fictional). Zone design almost always leaves me shaking my head in wonderment about how the oddly designed the geography is. But the political landscape is even worse than the geographical one. Based on the political side of things, Azeroth has no chance at all against the Legion. And the silly idea that each of us is the commander of our respective classes. Uh huh, yea, right...that is going to be SO VERY AWESOME not.
Oh well, I am downloading FFXIV as I type this. What realm/server do you play on Grumpy?
I believe it is courel, but forget the exact spelling, it is something like that.
DeleteI too can not believe they are making the same mistake with flight all over again. Blizzard says they learn from mistakes and in the same sentence proves they do not learn from their mistakes.
I am with you on the changes to classes too. They are going way the hell over board. Tweaks and adjustments are fine. This over the top wholesale dismantling and rebuilding of nearly ever spec is not needed, not wanted, and serves no purpose.
It's funny (or sad maybe) that the only thing that got me jumping out of my chair with excitement while watching the virtual ticket was the transmog announcements...
ReplyDeleteSeeing Sylvanas come to Varian's aide in the cinematic gave me goosebumps though. And of course I noticed the "nod"!
Yes, transmog collection is account wide.
Where did you see a screenshot with 3 or 4 professions?
Agree, I'm pissed about flying not being available early on.
I have mixed feelings about the hunter preview. Waiting til we have beta before drawing any real conclusions, but I have a lot of doubts.
Same here. I loved the mog announcement and was really excited for it. And I am not even into mogging, so it is funny,or sad.
DeleteCheck back to the video when they were talking about it. In the crafting screen in one of them it clearly shows they have tailoring, mining and skinning. In another I could swear I saw 4 professions, but I never went back to look, but three? Absolutely, I am 100% certain I saw that.
I just posted my hunter post. My conclusion was that the best hunter spec would be a guardian druid for me. Says something about what I think of the hunter changes.
I re-watched the Game Systems panel discussion and there was nothing in there like that. I can't find anyone else mentioning it either. Where exactly did you see it?
DeleteI will do a search around today and try to see if I can find a screen shot of it. Trust me, I saw it, and I was excited when I saw it. I now really want to find it again.
DeleteI made a screen cap of the three profession thing I saw and will post to tomorrow in my post. Could not find the 4, but could have swore I saw that too. But maybe I am wrong, but you will see, the three is absolute, it is there. But remember, it doesn't mean anything. It could just be something for internal testing.
Delete