Monday, August 3, 2015

Monday Random Thoughts

- I decided to add a second day to trying to get further into the raid this week.

- Worked well the first week, not sure how long it will last however.

- But with a large raid, there is no way we are going to get anywhere 2 hours a week starting over each week.

- Was nice to see us get three bosses further and kill two new bosses.

- I am loving having 2 days.

- The second day we only raided an hour and a half and downed two new bosses.

- I would say week one was a success.

- I think, in time, if we can keep people showing up, we can clear in 4 hours.

- Nice to finally feel like we are moving forward again.

- Am I asking too much for a minimum of 35K for normal?

- There are people that sign up that are a higher item level than I, 700 and over, and they still can not break 25K single target.

- I think maybe I am setting the bar too high.

- But boy oh boy is everything easier with more DPS.

- I think my biggest problem is I try to judge others by what I can do and sometimes I ask too much of casual raiders.

- Hey, casual does not need to mean bad.

- I am a firm believer of that.

- Ran mythic dungeons all weekend.

- Wanted to make sure all my raiders got their heroic cache.

- It can't hurt right?

- And did not also do the everbloom thing for all of them, did many full clears.

- Because for most people a 705 would be an upgrade, and for some people even a 685 might.

- I got boots in my hunters bag, I did not need them.

- Got a trinket in my druids bag, the worst tanking trinket for it.

- So for my characters my weekend was a waste, but we got a lot of raiders upgrades.

- So it was time well spent.

- We did do the everbloom skip more than a few time, just because it is faster.

- When time started to run short and we wanted to get everyone the cache we just wanted to get it done.

- Not to mention it is human nature to take the easiest path of least resistance.

- It is the same reason the world first race stayed 25 man when they standardized the raids.

- It was the easy raid, the path of least resistance.

- It is human nature.

- Do you think skipping all the bosses is an exploit?

- Some do, I don't.

- In my opinion an exploit is something you do that was not intended by using some sort of bug or item to do things that you can not naturally do.

- While this was not intended, no tricks were done to do it.

- You can simply walk to the last boss.

- No wall climbing cheats, just a well timed jump.

- So not an exploit, even if not intended.

- Just my opinion of course.

- Making this a fast MRT for today.

- Hope you had a fun weekend like I did.

- Have a great day.


  1. An exploit? With such a loaded term I would say no it isn't an exploit but it is something I prefer to avoid.

    I do think the key thing is that it is a coding oversight, so yes, not intended. And while I am generally against forced "correct way to play" in most instances, I, personally, don't see dungeon paths in the same manner.

    I don't think anyone should be punished for using it and I'd rather they spent any coding time on more important things than in "fixing" this. Still, if I had me druthers, I would not use that. I'm actually the kind of person that prefers not to skip trash.

    Part of that is due to being instilled with a "full clear" mindset and making sure to eliminate any problems behind you in case you get into trouble.

    I also don't like how it becomes the only acceptable way to play in LFD then. The one path that people use now to skip trash in everbloom requires you to be a decent mount jumper. Which isn't too bad and to be fair, the groups I've been in have had 2 person mounts available to help others get up. But it will only be a matter of time before it is expected of all players and if you enter late and can't make it up, too bad for you.

    It also makes me hesitant to tank anything because I need to know all of the proper skipping techniques and such. And if I don't do them I'll probably get a fair amount of abuse and such for not doing it the best way.

    Please don't see any of this as a criticism of you or your guild. Again, as long as I don't have to do it, I don't really care. It doesn't impact me and I don't think it is an unfair exploit.

    1. Some people are calling it an exploit, and if it is then I would have to say it was the most widely used one in the history of the game.

      Looking for mythic groups on my alts was crazy, all you saw were last boss everbloom groups and nothing else. I wanted full runs on my alts because they can actually use gear from them. But oh well.

      Ans no, you can get from the entrance to the last boss without ever jumping once. Trust me, I did it a lot this weekend and got the pattern down. My feet never leave the ground now that I know the path, but I get what you mean.

  2. To talk more about the dps expectation that you have. You did mention that you still have the 4 piece 670 gear, which brings your ilvl down, but isn't that still supposed to be an upgrade for you until you get HFC tier? So technically you should be dying more dps than those at around 700, correct?

    Some fights, like Hellfire Assault, I'll do around 65-70k. Frost dk is great for that fight (unholy probably better). For some reason I get gimped on Iron Reaver. Not sure why, but I can barely break 30-35k. That's my worst fight of the raid so far, and another upgrade and I'll be at 700 ilvl.

    My class is gimped by the fact that it's centered around tier sets and class trinkets, which I don't have (current or last tier), so my full potential is limited, imo. Possibly, some of your raiders are in that boat. There's a warrior in my raid, ever since she got her 2 pc, she's been smoking me on dps. Before that, I was beating her on half the fights. This is why I hate Blizz balancing damage around tier sets and trinkets.

    1. The 4 piece, even the old one, is huge, that is for sure. But is it 15K huge? I am not so sure about that part. Could be however.

      Reaver on melee seems to hurt them. Not exactly sure why it seems to hurt them more than ranged, I mean even ranged don't attack him during the air phase, but I have yet to see a melee pull great numbers on that fight and I have a couple of amazing melee in my group.

      As you mentioned however, you are doing solid numbers without your tier and under 700. That is what I expect. Those are great numbers. I even understand why some classes do less on some fights, it is just how mechanics works.

      While it is true we got a new DK to join us at 704 and he is doing great numbers there was another DK that was 701 and doing half. The doing half people seem to be what I see the most of. People that on logs are in the 40% range for their class at that item level. For normal I would like to see, at least, over 60% for your item level personally. For heroic I want over 80% for your item level. Do you think I am asking to much?

      I know tier plays into it, so numbers are not the be all end all, but for new people you do not know looking at what damage they did and what damage they took that they could have avoided is a start. For me at least.

      Had a mage that was 705 ask me if they can come next week. I asked her what she is current doing, she says she does around 22-25K in LFR. I told her keep practicing. That is more what I was referring to when asking about that.

      You are SSSSOOOO going to love my post for the next two days. I already wrote it, will be posting it, but it is about tier sets and balancing around them. I hate it too.

    2. Well, for Reaver I know for a fact that the issue for melee is her Blitz (while she is on the ground) and the fact that in the air phase, there's a lot of running around for melee to DPS the bombs - whereas range just target them and blow them up (often times dead from ranged attacks just as the melee shows up to DPS it). So there is a LOT of down time for melee during that fight - and I definitely do not judge melee at all for that fight.

      I don't think your expectations for DPS (60% Normal and 80% Heroic) are at all unreasonable. The only exception being Reaver for melee and ranged assigned to specific duties (like the soak group for Runes on Kormrok or those assigned to fire suppression on Xhul'horac).

    3. Yeah, I look at a full picture, not just one fight.

      Heck, if people looked at my numbers on HFA they would think I was the worst hunter ever. I do MM and do not use barrage, so I can let guild mates get the fun of doing the big numbers. I just work on killing priority only. So I am usually between 30-60 on that fight whereas I am usually 94-99 on all others. If someone looked at that one fight they would immediately think I suck. So I never judge someone on one fight alone and melee on reaver is something you do not judge them on.

  3. We raid 3 nights a week, 3 hours a night with an optional clean up raid on Sunday that is also 3 hours (where we focus on the bosses that we know we should have gotten down but we were wiping on). Honestly, my recommendation would be to add a third night. Otherwise, you will be same bosses over and over again every week or else you will need to extend the lockout to get further. Trust me, once you get to Xhul'horac, the bosses really start to take some time (and wipes) to get down. Because, you know... Adds (that new boss mechanic they added for HFC).

    35K might be a bit high of a requirement for the first seven bosses, but once you reach Socrethar on, 35K would be ideal. Hopefully, by that time everyone has at least their 2pc bonus as the bonuses really do help a lot. 4pc MM just feels SOOOO good. Near full focus and Thrill procs!? O M G! Instant Aimed Shot for days! Pally 4pc for Ret and Prot is just crazy insane too.

    As for skipping bosses, I personally hated it during this event because I was after all the reputations (granted, I ran a ton of Heroics just to grind the reps to 999/1000 exalted). So that kind of bothered me - especially skipping bosses (and trash) for dungeons I specifically queued for - Everbloom being one of them as that dungeon grants the Laughing Skull Orcs / Sha'tari Defense rep. Honestly though, if the tank wasn't clearing everything or skipping bosses I announced before the end boss that I was running a clean up of what was skipped and anyone that wanted to stay was welcome to. Most often skipped was Xeri'tac in Everbloom. Switched to BM and lit that spider up like a Christmas Tree. :-) Once, it was just me and a Rogue clearing him and the other trash, the next time it was a Mage and a DPS Monk doing it. Who needs Tanks and Healers? Seriously! :-)

    Honestly though, I usually don't mind skipping bosses, but I do like it when the tank asks if everyone is okay with it. That's what I do when I tank on my warrior - I ask if people are cool with skipping "X" boss. If one person needs gear off that boss I planned to skip, we are no longer skipping it.

    1. We have a weekend third night, but that is for alts and some of the newer players that are not quite ready for real raiding so they can get their feet wet and learn. That night is a very important night as a casual guild that has a lot of non raiders that come wanting to be raiders. Never know where the next gem will come from.

      In our 3 and a half hours we did 8 bosses, two of which were new, so progression. I would "think" that once we are one practiced and I can get 4 hours, maybe a tiny more out of them, we should be able to clear in that time. But as you are further I will defer to you on if we can or not.

      We downed Soc for the first time this week, oh my god he was so easy. I was expecting a hard fight but that fight was a joke compared to the bosses before him. Think kilrog and gorefiend are the hardest so far, for our group at least.

      Sadly only 3 people have the 2 piece (I am not one of them) and none of those 3 are using it. All are waiting for the 4 piece to switch. So all tier pieces we have gotten so far seem to have been useless sadly.

      Not like, with the main crew, we will need any help on the DPS side, on Soc we had 5 people over 60K, so we will pass the 35K requirement. I still ask that of new players even if we do not "need" it. I don't want anyone coming in doing 20K and thinking that is okay.

      My horde hunter did the same thing, almost soloed it on mythic. lol I went there for rep and figured I would try while I was there. And my horde hunter is only 683 with no tier as it has never stepped into a raid. I could only imagine what my main could do. Yeah, who needs tanks when we have pets. :P

      I also agree that if a tank is going to try and skip he should let people know ahead of time.

    2. HAHA! Yeah, Soc is easy compared to Kilrogg and Gorefiend. As long as your tank knows how to control the Construct and people are target switching and interrupting, Soc is an easy fight. If you haven't killed Zakuun yet, he will be your next joke boss (Heroic is not so much a joke though - "shit get's real" on Heroic). Keep in mind, Xhul'horac, Velhari, Mannoroth and Archimonde will be heavy movement fights - so casters will dip a bit in their damage (assuming they stop their casts to move as they should - HAHA!).

    3. We did it in three tires, the tank never even saw a video. He learned the controls the first time and that is all I asked of him. Second attempt I told him the strat to use, he did it and we got it to 23%. Third try he got the pattern and we downed it. Only takes one transition too, it goes down nice and smooth as soon as the tank knows. It is one of those fights I hate. Good tank that knows it = easy fight. Bad or knowledgeable tank = wipe fest. They should never put an entire fight on the back of one person.

      I would hope they stop their casts to move. We do not have the OP healers we had back in ToT and SoO where we could stand in anything and let them carry us, even in heroic (now called mythic). I swear you get lazy fast when you have great healers behind you. But as a hunter I always moved anyway. Not because I had to, but because I could.

  4. I hate skipping. If someone really wants to climb hills to skip, they can do it for me too. And everyone else there. Swapblaster ftw.

    1. I would just get on a two person mount and carry someone. We had a healer that just could not get it so I rode here all the way there.

    2. From personal experience - Gnomes, Goblins and Dwarves seem to have the hardest time with that trash skip on the first boss in Everbloom. Larger races, not so much of an issue.

    3. Short classes do have a problem jumping, but I have found a way from doing it so many times this weekend that you can make it the entire way there without the need to jump even once. I can go from gate to portal without my feet ever leaving the ground.

      I do find it funny that blizzard keeps saying that all races can jump the same because if they do, I suck at it on smaller characters. But everyone I know that has a small character says the same thing, they have problems jumping.

    4. As a tank, I love skipping trash by properly gauging aggro radius and avoiding patrols.

      But I don't do it because typically someone in the group will pull by mistake.

      I don't enjoy skipping all the trash in a dungeon and going right to the last boss. That removes all the fun in setting up the pull and controlling the situation.

      When I was running Everbloom a lot, I never did learn the paths. I was always reliant on whoever was in there to show the way. Once I had a guy put raid markers down to show the way, which was nice. But usually, the guy would just run ahead of everyone and complain when we couldn't keep up.

      I think I might've dropped group once because of it, not sure.

      Blood DK Tank

    5. looks like the hotfixed the everbloom skip that people were using to go straight to the last boss for their mythic dungeon quest.

      reddit wow: Mythic Everbloom skip to last boss hotfixed?


    6. @Regardsanon

      Yeah, skipping if you understand aggro radius' is fine, but in a random it is dangerous. Just because you are a smart player does not mean everyone is. Someone is always bound to pull.

      I knew they would hotfix it. But the funny part is, I was not using the way that was showing on all the sites. My way I have not seen anywhere. Like I said here, my way you never even needed to jump once. Wonder if that would still work being most people did not know my way.

    7. Don't like skipping in pugs, not worth the hassel. I have to wait and watch everyone skip anyway. I remember this one tank who tried to skip some of the trash in Molten Core. Wiped several times because of it. I just assume tank isn't very experienced with pugs and is used from seeing it done "this way" with a guild group when it happens.

    8. Skipping is most pugs is a recipe for disaster. There will either be the oblivious person that walks right into it, the focused person that doesn't not even notice it because they are looking elsewhere and hits it with something like barrage, or the jerk who pulls it on purpose because it would be "funny". Not worth the risk to skip in pugs most of the time.