Wednesday, August 12, 2015

Honor System (v3) Raises Excitement and Concerns

As a reminder I will start by saying that everything here is based on a tiny bit of information we have from the announcement of legion and everything is subject to change, and some of it most likely will.  However, this post is about my first impressions after the announcement so those impressions are made based on the little bit of information supplied to us.

Quite some time ago a question was asked, it wondered why we play PvP in heroes of the storm and do not play PvP in warcraft.  I jumped on this topic as I really wanted to answer it.  I have tried to dabble in PvP many times over the years and I either got bored quickly, lost the crew I was playing with, or run into a string of discouragements that caused me to stop playing again.  So I had opinions, like everyone else, on why I do not PvP in one but I do in the other.

Seeing the announcement for the new honor system v3 actually made me a little excited in a few ways because I could see that a few of the things I mentioned in that post were being addressed but it also made me want for more information as I had some concerns with the announcement as the information we were given was so little.

Excitement: No More PvP Gear

Some people are screaming about this on the forums, and rightfully so.  If I had to PvP to get the bulk of my PvE gear right now I would not be a happy camper either.  However, as I am a PvEer the idea that they are removing PvP gear completely is very exciting to me.

No longer will I ever find myself caught behind that wall.  The one where I did not start to PvP from the get go so everyone I run into has full conquest gear now and here I am having just saved enough up for my PvP trinket and that is the only piece of PvP gear I have. Can you say dead elf?

Trust me, as someone that is not a regular PvPer the most discouraging thing in the world is to step into a 3v3 and find your entire team dead in less than 20 seconds because all of you were wearing PvE gear.  Yes, there is absolutely a skill factor involved as I am not a very good PvPer, but knowing that gear different was there was always a mental road block for me and many others I tried to get to go with me.  The line "but I have no PvP gear" was all I ever heard when asking people if they wanted to do some PvP.  How many beating am I willing to take until I get lucky enough to win a few here and there so I can get some gear?  That was the uphill battle every PvEer that wanted to join the fight had to ask themselves and most of the time it came down to just saying screw it, I won't PvP.

The removal of PvP gear with PvP stats entirely is something I look at with great excitement.  Sure there will still be people better geared than I, but at least I know I have the potential to catch up in gear now and gear means a lot less in PvP too whereas before there was no way in hell I would have gotten the best PvP gear without getting a million butt whooping and trust me, no one really wants to see a beaten and bruised purple elf butt.  It is not a pretty sight.

Concern: Talents

I like the new idea that you level your PvP level with v3.  As you level it gives you certain power boosts in PvP, increasing your abilities capability, your defensive capability and giving you new skills that can be used in only a PvP setting.

So if I like the idea why exactly is this a concern of mine?  Pretty simple actually.  They are adding PvP only abilities and that means the return of some abilities we lost (cool) and maybe the removal of some abilities we have now so they could become PvP only perks (not cool).

That is why this is a concern of mine.  I am a hunter and I love being a hunter.  I love having the toolbox I have.  Masters call, counter shot, ice trap, freezing trap, disengage, deterrence, concussive shot, distracting shot, and the list goes on and on, not to mention all the different things we can talent into like binding shot for example.  All awesome abilities that could be removed to become PvP only abilities and I am worried about that.

I am afraid I will lose some of these things so they can become PvP only abilities. I consider concussive shot to be at the top of the list of things they might remove to add to PvP only, followed closely by masters call.  I do not want to lose these abilities in PvE.  I use them and I use them often.  They have their purpose.  Sure they might be more suitable for the PvP environment, sure I might get even more use out of them in PvP, but I am concerned I might lose them just so they have talents to give us in our v3 tree.  I don't want to lose any of them.  I would cry and there is no crying in warcraft.  Unless your are Jaina of course, than you have to cry at least once per raid tier.

Excitement: No More PvP Gear (Part 2)

My luck is legend, or lack of luck if you will.  So much so that if they ever put an item in game for me it would probably be a book that rogues pickpocket called "The Unluckiest Elf on Azeroth".  It is so bad it is actually comical.

With that said, I am excited because with no more PvP gear that means that the gear you can get from doing PvP will be PvE gear, hopefully raid quality PvE gear.  Okay, okay, so I now have two chances to not get gear, but even a broken clock is right twice a day, so maybe with two different chances to get gear I might actually get some gear.

I am absolutely excited about the prospect that I could PvP to get another shot at gear.  Surely the gearing system from the PvP angle will not be as good as it used to be without conquest points and all, but it is a something right?  It just might be the motivation I needed to get into PvP, if the rewards are above what I am currently raiding that is, and if I get into PvP I will get better at it.  In theory anyway, and I would like to get better.

Concern: Talents (Part 2)

We do not know how match making will work when it comes to talents.  I am hopeful that if I do a random battleground as a level 1 PvPer that there are only level 1-5 PvPers there but you never know with blizzard.  In my opinion PvP levels should be used like character levels are.  You group people at the same level character so group people at the same PvP level.

If that turns out to be the case than that would be pretty cool.  But it is a concern of mine that it will not be handled correctly.  Being gear is not the huge obstacle that it used to be talents could easily take their place as what could keep lesser skilled people like myself from playing.

Before, as a lesser skilled player, I could get lucky against someone in all conquest gear.  Yes, it has been known to happen.  I could pull off a win here or there if the stars lined up right, or if I were fighting a retribution paladin.  But with skills I am worried that if I were a level 1 and ran into a level 50 I would get crushed.

Being the gear difference would be a 7% difference at most (using the guesstimate given by blizzard, again, subject to change) which means that PvP becomes more of a skill based game, which I love.  I always said PvP should be about skill, not what gear you wear.  So being it is a completely skill based game, someone that has a higher PvP level will have more skills to use against me.  So add their more skill playing their class to more skills available to them to use against me and more powerful nature of said skills thanks to skill levels and there is no getting lucky again like I used to from time to time.  They will completely WTF own me.

If blizzard handles the grouping correctly this is a non issue, if they don't this is a huge issue, and it is a major concern of mine because quite honestly I do not trust them to handle the grouping correctly.  I hope they will, I just do not trust they will.

Excitement & Concern:  World PvP

World PvP has always been my favorite part of PvP.  It was rare but it was also huge, spontaneous, and usually down right exciting at times.  Some of my favorite PvP moments would be world PvP moments.

I know they mentioned something about scaling and such in instanced content, but how will that work in world content.  If I am a level 50 will I be able to use all my PvP abilities in the world?  Even against a level 1?  There has always been a stronger or weaker person in world PvP, whomever has the most gear usually dictated that and maybe it will change to whomever has to highest PvP level now.  It is par for the course and there is nothing wrong with that is a world PvP setting.

But with less reliance on gear for PvP power and more on skills as their power base, will world PvP be more imbalanced than it currently is due to the skills higher level PvP players have?  Will it be better?  Will it be worse?

I have no clue, I can not even guess.  It is why it has both excited me and concerns me.  It could bring world PvP back, at least a little bit, which I find exciting and it could make it horrible if the skills someone has mean too much, which concerns me.

Even on characters that never stepped into one single instanced PvP environment I have always joined in whenever there was world PvP going on.  I love it and would love to see it more.  It makes the game feel alive.  But if I have to PvP to get the skills on character I never PvP on or I will get super owned by the people with skills, it is a concern, and could very well keep me from getting involved in a world battle situation.

End Note:

The announcement of the new honor system v3 has made me both excited to hear more and concerned with some of the things they already mentioned.  As someone that is not a PvP player, the fact that I have any excitement whatsoever about it is a positive step in the right direction for blizzard in my opinion.  Can't wait to see how this one takes off.  But be warned, if they try to take concussive shot from me I might be forced to make a post with a lot of curse words in it because homey don't play that.

What do you think about the little we know so far with honor system v3?


  1. trust me, no one really wants to see a beaten and bruised purple elf butt.

    / Fluffyfists the Gnome raises hand

    1. Keep your gnome away from my butt. I am warning you. :P

  2. ok, ok, Fluffy just doesn't know her own strength at times and maybe, just maybe it was that dang NE fishing achievement in NE City, requiring her to stay there for 2 whole weeks, having to eat night elf food - kimchi, red bean buns, and cheongju (yuk, spit out).

    Yeah, she is a trouble maker. Sorry, that I let her loose on my log in.

    I hope you don't want world pvp. I certainly don't and honestly, if it comes to that, I am gone. I hate pvp. I had the chance the other day to kill a Blood Elf locky who was pvp but she was lvl 30 and I was lvl 35 on AuntyElm my pally and she was half health. So, I helped her kill the mobs and waved at her and went away. That would have not been a fair fight, but kids these days don't have an honorable bone in their body - they would have attack even if they were lvl 100.

    ok, haven't played WoD in 3 weeks. Nothing there for me really. I can't figure out how to get all those followers like my main has (Tamhais) and can't figure out where to go. I am lost. Plus I can't find a guide how to play my druid, how to spec him, Icey Veins sucks IMHO these days as they are raiders and look at the world thru raiders eyes. Plus seems more concern with the cards games.

    So, who would you recommend for good guides to take a druid to lvl 100 (I am 92)? And how about playing that silly battleship game? I cant figure that out either, except need oil. how blizzard can take something simple and complicate it beyond all belief is a mystery.

    ok, gots to go to the store for food. later GE


    1. On a PvE server the world PvP usually stays in certain places like the deeprun tram. If can be fun if there are two large groups working against each other.

      I remember one time I was healing a prot paladin on my shaman and we, just the two of us, were running through horde left and right on the tram. Fighting as it was moving, using knockbacks to knock them off the tram. Jumping from one car to the other to get away from ground effects. It was great fun.

      Would I want that all the time every day? Absolutely not. But when you are bored world PvP like that can be a great deal of fun.

      What do you need to know? I am not expert on druids but if you are looking for the non raiding version I am sure I could give some advice.

      I would suggest just doing the quest lines. They are well done and if you follow them you get a fair deal of followers along the way. That is probably why one has so many and the others don't That one did all the quests and your others didn't. You get lots of them from quest lines.

    2. I found a web site and now it is just finding the time to read it. Everyone with a site on explaining druids (such as IV) assumes that one is raiding. How weird is that. Surely most who play don't raid.

      But I found some things and going to follow what they wrote. But right now, Aunty Elm is too much fun. I made 5 levels yesterday and did not play that much. :)

      But if I reach a halting place, I will send you and email. Thanks GE

    3. The reason for that is most people that seek out information are trying to be the best they can be and usually the raids are the example of the best of the best. So they explain it that way.

      There is a place for the simple basics, but no one writes for that reason.

    4. well, that just goes to assume something wrong. Maybe I want to be the best at playing the game and not raiding. Just sucks that they think that way.

  3. I have the same worries about talents and abilities, especially when you add in the unique ones that SV melee, and possibly even petless MM will have to have. Blizz said nothing about a total overhaul of the spell books and talent tiers, but I do not see how these other changes work without it. The current structures become overloaded and unbelievably complex if you try to make them work for all specs and all play modes.

    1. I would think melee SV needs to get some raid utility or they will never be taken. The playing field is already over crowded not even counting the the fact a new melee hero class is being added. So they will need something to get included and the normal "hunters have no utility" will not work for melee.

      Can't wait to see what happens with abilities, but I feel we will end up losing a lot of our tool box and what makes it so fun to play a hunter.

  4. Personally, this is something that I had said over and over and over again (until blue in the face - so to speak) that was needed and that was a completely separate ability and talent system for PvP. This system that was presented seems to be the closest to what I had said was needed LONG ago. I am concerned like you are, Grumpy. I don't want Concussive Shot and Masters call (and the like) to be PvP only. However, it seems more likely (to me) based on the limited info we saw that those talents and abilities can exist in PvE, but would react and behave differently in a PvP setting. All I can say is, "THANK GOD... it's about F'n time!"

    Also note, Lore stated: "The intent is that PvP talents activate in world PvP, similar to how PvP item levels currently activate in Warlords." ( - This is Lore stating this too, so we may need to take that with a grain of salt (given his track record as of late - Sorry Lore if you are reading this). So... if that holds true, this is a system I can 100% buy into. I'm on a PvP server (have been since I first started playing) and getting ganked is a fact of life - and it usually comes down to whoever started the gank, wins the gank - and more often than not, it's 3+ people versus me. I hate PvP (as it is now) but... with this system and the playing field being FAR more leveled... I might actually for the FIRST time ever, start actively PvP'ing. I have always hated PvP simply because of the issues with balance and that changing something for PvP meant it impacted PvE (and Vice Versa).

    I am also extremely happy to hear about the changes to gear from PvP. No more PvP specific bonuses or stats from gear. No more of this Conquest geared guy versus me in PvE gear not standing a chance. None of this me in Mythic gear against a guy in lower level PvP blues not standing a chance against me. This is absolutely the best news regarding PvP I have ever heard from Blizzard. As long as all of this is done CORRECTLY - with careful planning and thoughtful respect to all classes - this will be the best thing to happen to PvP (and in similar fashion PvE as well) since the introduction of Battlegrounds and Arenas!

    Overall, even given the limited amount of information we do have about all this, I am excited for it. It might just get me into an area of the game (PvP) that I have always avoided and hated. :-D

    1. I had always said the same thing, just differently. That abilities just worked different when used against a mob or against a player. Not sure why blizzard always pushed away from that. They did it with CC, it works for a much shorter time in PvP but they refused to do it with something like arcane shot, for example. It never made sense.

      I like Lore, but being he seems to be left out of the loop lately on what they are doing I am not sure we can take what he says about the PvP changes to be true. Maybe give him a week or two to catch up and if he says the same thing then I will believe it.

      I tried leveling on PvP servers multiple times. When I usually give up is when max levels start to camp me, I switch to another character and forget to come back. I have absolutely no problem if I am level 30 and a level 40 beats me, even if he still had the advantage, but I hate being killed over and over by a max level character. There is no challenge, there is no reward, you are just wasting my time and your time. I always said there needs to be some sort of penalty for someone that kills a lower level character, on purpose, not by incidental AoE. Say a 1 hour debuff that reduces your stats by 10% or something. Ganking happens yes, but ganking someone 70 levels lower than you should never happen. There is no good reason for it, ever.

      Gear normalization is a fantastic idea, if done right. But maybe as you and I are more PvE focused we see it differently. The PvP players are completely up in arms over this. We want balance, they want free honor kills, at least that is how I read it.

      I feel the same way, as a PvEer first and foremost, that it is a great thing to see myself and other PvE players interested in PvP because of this. A huge step in the right direction from blizzard.

      The concerns I mentioned, and some others, will be key. If they handle things well it will work out awesome. If they don't, PvP will be worse now than it was before. Cross your fingers and hope.

    2. HA! Well, Blizzard stated that the reasons they did not want to change all abilities to react differently in PvE and PvP was simply this (paraphrased quote): "We don't want players to look at the ability tool tip and be confused by what the ability does in different situations."

      I saw that as an underhanded slap in the face to the players. Because in stating that, they are saying, 'We think our players are too stupid to read a tool tip and understand it.' (again that is NOT a direct quote and I cannot for the life of me find the Blue post stating this - but I KNOW I replied to it). Classic right? :-P

      Yeah, I've been camped as a lowbie by max level players. Most times I just rez and sigh at them die, release, rez, rinse and repeat and they eventually get the clue and move on. In my expereince, they are trying to invoke World PvP by making the player pissed, having him switch to his max level main, grab a couple of his friends and come escalate the situation resulting the the intial player grabbing more of his friends to join in and then BAM! Massive World PvP (or at least 5 to 10 players versus 5 to 10 players). It happens... I've seen it happen and participated in said events resulting from exactly that scenario. I rarely ever start anything and I never gank lowbies... EVER. But I do get why some do. Friend of mine is of the opinion "If it's red, it's dead" - but he doesn't camp them. Just kills them and moves on.

      (Edit: man I'm just full of fail posts this morning. :-P )

    3. I always looked at it this way. If someone is actually reading the tooltip than they are also the type of person that would understand things work differently. The people that would get confused by it are probably the people that never read the tooltips anyway.

      I think the way you said it is really close to what the actual comment was. I remember them saying it too.

      Those people do not understand that if you are in the mood to quest, that is what you want to do. They are not going to start some world PvP by doing that, all they are going to do is waste their time and ruin someone elses day. Admittedly, for some, ruining someones day is more than enough incentive anyway, but I am sure you get what I mean.

      When I passed people lower than me I never attacked them. I had a rule if someone was more than 10 levels lower than I. If they attack, I will kill them and even camp once, if I was not in the middle of something. So they get the idea. I would have left you alone if you did not start anything.

      Funny part is that I noticed there is less world PvP on PvP servers than there is on PvE servers. I think maybe that has to do with people being flagged is rare on PvE servers so when it happens everyone and their mother flocks to it. But on a PvP server people just think, I will fight later, I am doing something else now. Which means, world PvP is best on a PvE server. And it is damn fun too when it happens.

      Sort story (I know, I never have a short story).

      Back in cataclysm the horde tried to attack stormwind. I rallied everyone in my guild at the time, mostly people that never PvP, and we met them in the tram. We owned them big time but they kept sending more. So we called out to trade as we started to be down 3 to 1 or more. People came. We beat them back.

      But now my guild had the PvP bug, so we went and invaded thunderbluff as a small group (about 18) and that caused a retaliation.

      They tried to come to stormwind again through the air this time and we disbanded them really fast. But they were not all there, I knew they had to be trying a split raid. So switched characters to my mage that was in Darn (I set him up there on purpose) and hit have group will travel as soon as we killed everyone in SW and chanced them away. Instantly the entire raid was inside the building in Darn and we destroyed the horde group trying there as well.

      We did not just beat them, we manhandled them. it was exciting as all hell.

      Now that is what world PvP should be like. That was fun, that was exciting, and that was a group of PvEers destroying PvPers all because we were well coordinated on voice chat together as it was all guild.

      Man on man that was great.

    4. I don't think it's about confusion. If all abilities act differently it's like a completely different class. I've never actually liked how abilities do different things on normal mobs vs bosses vs specific bosses vs whatever else. Hey look, an immunity bubble but it won't work for this this and this.
      I just don't like the concept, though I don't like the nerfing of one aspect of the game for the sake of the other. No elegant solution as I see it.

    5. I don't particularly believe so. It would depend on how they "change" them.

      If they changed aimed shot so it applied a DoT with no direct damage in PvP instead of being a direct damage ability, then yes, I agree with you. But that is not want I am saying. I am saying that you change aimed shot so it does, for example, 50K damage to a mob and 5K damage to a player. That does not change the ability or how the class is played in any way shape or form.

      It is like my trap works for a minute against a mob and 6 seconds against a person. It does not change the class I play in any way. It just works differently on people. That is what I personally meant about change how abilities work in PvP. It would change absolutely nothing about the class.

      I think this, scaling might be a better word than changing, would be the most elegant way of doing it. But I agree, there is no perfect way. The only perfect way would be to completely eliminate world PvP and then have a separate spec for PvP that is used in instanced PvP. The would be the only perfect solution.

  5. I have an extremely bad opinion about PvP-ers. And it's just that, my opinion and very unlikely to chage. I think most of them enjoy crushing their opponent through sheer overgearing and picking the most op class than actually playing fair on equal ground.

    So yeah cool, good on paper, how will PvP players progress? Any way you look at it, you have to end up having a bonus for what you do through what you do. So in the end, what does it matter that they remove gear when the advantages will come from pvp bonuses on the weapon or whatever pvp only perk they link to something or another. Same crap.

    1. I agree with your assessment 100%. I also believe that most PvPers that like to pick on low level characters do so because they have horrible personal lives that that is how they make themselves feel better, by exerting their power of the people they know are weaker. So no chance of losing. So I too have a very low opinion of PvPer as well. You are not alone.

      The are shifting the power from gear to skills. So really it will depend on how long it takes to get to level 50 and the match making to get to that point. If done well, it will not be a crushing experienced that it is now for a new entry player, or at least that is my hope.

      In the end, if I have a level 50 and they have a level 50 at least I know if I get killed it is because I need to get better, not because they have PvP gear and I don't. That is why I like the idea.