Sunday, August 9, 2015

Survival as Melee, Please Blizzard Don't

I've said on this very site at least a dozen times that I think survival should be a melee class.  Despite the title I actually still do believe that.  Survival should have been made as melee.  The issue I have is that should is past tense.  When they were first created if they were melee it would have been fine.  But you can not change them now, it is just not right.

I am not just saying this because I do not think survival should be changed without giving any reason.  While I do always voice my opinion I also always have a reason for my opinion and I am not shy about sharing it agree with me or not.

1) Too Late Blizzard:

Classes change, specs change, it is all part of the game but no class ever in the history of the game has ever had to change what the class actually does.  Except maybe the death knight that used to be able to tank on all three specs and DPS on all three.  But they do not count because no spec was ever fully declared a tank spec or a DPS spec, it was just a hero class that could do whatever it wanted.

Hunters have already been subjected to the largest change any class has had to go through when they changed from mana to focus.  So it is not like the hunter community is not capable to rolling with the punches, we have been doing it for the past 10 years.

A change like this however is much bigger than even changing the resources of the hunter.  No class ever in the history of the game has had to change like this and none should have to.  They have never changed a healing class into a DPS class, a tanking class into a healing class, a DPS class into tank or healer class, a melee class into a ranged class or a ranged class into a melee class.  That is because you just do not do things like that.

If you change something like this with a new class on the beta it would be fine but you can not change something that has been in game for 10+ years.

2) Taking Away Choice:

It might seem odd that I am saying that adding melee to the hunter class is actually taking away choice.  While it is true that they are actually adding the option to play melee at the same time they taking away the players choice.  Sometimes adding an option actually means they are taking away choice.  This is a case of that.

There are many players in the game that roll their class because they do not want to do something.  People that roll a class that can't heal so they can never be asked to heal.  People that roll a class that can't tank so they don't have to be asked to tank.  People that roll a class that can't play at range so they can't be asked to go to ranged.  And last but not least, people that roll a class that can't melee so they can't be asked to go into melee.

While it is true that there are two classes that already have both a melee and ranged specs, but these specs were like this from their first release, people that roll them roll them knowing that.  It is not changing thing so people that roll those classes know what they are in for from the beginning.

Bottom line is that there are a great many people that rolled hunters so they could never be asked to tank, heal, or be in melee.  If that is the reason someone rolled a hunter it is extremely wrong to take that choice away from them, to have their class not be asked to go into melee.

3) Adding is Better Than Taking Away:

I will start this by saying I feel bad for warlocks who lost a key abilities from one of their specs so that they could create an entire new class around that one ability.  It just feels wrong and it should never happen.

If blizzard really wanted to add a melee spec for hunters it should have been added as a forth spec.  Only earlier this week , before the announcement oddly enough, I wrote a post that I never liked survival and that was in part because it always felt like it should be a melee spec.  That is only one elves opinion however, there are a massive amount of people that play hunters out there that love survival.

Change happens, it will always happen, it is part of the game, but changing how a spec works is fine, changing what a spec is, is wrong.  When large changes like this are made they will always be met better if they were additions to the game, such as in a forth spec, than a removal from the game, which is removing ranged survival and replacing it with melee survival.  No one likes losing stuff, everyone likes getting stuff.  Hunter will lose survival, the ranged spec, and that sucks.

4) Balance:

Lets not worry about balance in PvP right now, lets talk about something a lot simpler.  What happens if survival becomes the best raiding spec?

Tens of thousands of hunters game wide will either be stuck trying to learn how to play in melee, and trust me it is a lot of learning because it is a completely different style of game play if someone has never done it before, or they can continue to play a sub par spec because they refuse to be in melee, or they could quit the class completely even if they did not want to do so because they would rather play at ranged.

People who roll hunters do so knowing they are a ranged class with pets.  People that do not like having pets do not roll hunters.  People that like being in melee do not roll hunters.  These are just the basics of the game.

If survival is ever the best spec for hunters to be you will surely see a lot of people quitting their hunter and leaving it to rot.  The hunter class is a great class, the hunter community is a great community, and people should never be put into the situation where they feel they have to learn a brand new play style this late in the game or quit their class and leave their community behind.

Better players will adjust and do it, but the vast majority of players will just quit playing a hunter or play a sub par spec.  They should never be put into that situation.

5) Clutter:

There are already too many melee classes, there is a new melee hero class being added that will have a lot of people playing it, and now survival is adding even more to that clutter in the melee pool.

Many fights are melee unfriendly.  While I am lucky in my guild were we have a boatload of hunters, mages and locks, many guilds get into trouble on some fights because they have too many melee and there are many melee unfriendly fights.  So why add more clutter to the already cluttered melee scene?

If, as in the above, survival becomes the best spec for hunters than that just adds more melee to the game.  Personally I think the next hero class should have been a healer / ranged class, but being it is going to be melee this is the worst time they should be considering changing one ranged spec into a melee one.  Not like I think any time would be a good one, but that is beside the point, this time is the worst time to do so when you are already adding a melee class you know everyone and their mother is going to want to play.  They are effectively adding two now classes of clutter to an already full zone, the melee zone.

6) Crossbow?

Every type of weapon in the game is getting the artifact treatment.  Beast mastery hunters are getting a gun and marksman hunters are getting a bow so it would only make sense for the survival hunter to get the crossbow.

Oddly enough, this should be a good reason alone to keep survival as a ranged.  They are the only other spec in the game that could use the crossbow and there is at least one of each type of weapon as an artifact, why now have one with a crossbow as well.

The gun fits well with the opening cinematic of the game in vanilla for beast mastery, that works perfectly.  A bow really fits the marksman feel, light, quiet, and deadly.  And the crossbow with its compact power can fit well as the survival toolbox of powerful traps and a powerful weapon.

Add the that, it fits with the fact they are the only spec that can use it and all other weapons are getting the artifact treatment, it just makes sense to let the survival stay at ranged and use it and maybe, just maybe, if they plan on changing survival, do it in another expansion.  Let them stay ranged for this class, let there be a crossbow artifact, and let hunters get another expansion as a pure ranged class.

I know these bullet points might not be the best, and will surely have absolutely zero impact on blizzard and will not change their opinion on changing the survival spec into melee, but maybe if we speak up, they might at least consider it.

Please blizzard, let survival stay ranged and give them a crossbow artifact.  It is the right thing to do.  If you really do desperately want hunters to have a melee spec, add a forth spec.  And I am saying this as someone that does not like survival, so I am sure that the people that do like do not want to see it changed either for a much better reason that the six I gave.  They like that spec and they like that spec being at ranged.  That is the best and biggest reason not to change it.


  1. ok, as I am reading this I got the "awe" stage and then the "shock and awe" (sorry) stage then to the pissed off stage. What do you mean I have to use a gun because it fits? That makes no sense at all. I prefer a bow, I like the noise of a bow, I can't stand the "BANG".

    And I don't care that my brother dwarf uses one in the opening cinematic of the game in vanilla for beast mastery, how do you know that is actually beast mastery? You don't. It could be a SS dwarf, though he would have been kicked out of the clan for being so.

    Now, what is going on with the hunter class now GE? No, I don't stay informed as I have been playing a paly and I love that class! Only thing missing is a having a gun. :D ... and a tanking pet... Why can't palys have a little religious Friar Tuck pet to chastise the baddies or even those dancing boys in Goldshire?

    But, back in vanilla, we did do melee, remember? We also had a dead space between using a gun/bow and a melee weapon. Hell, I remember carrying a 2H axe with agi and sta on it. So, it looks like we can go back to that with a dead space where rogues and everyone else can stand and NOT get attacked by us? When we lost mana it was to stop thinking we used special spells, yet, I still see those fancy magic spells in the game for our shots. But Blizzard has done a pretty job (up till now) trying to remove those magic shots.

    Where do you keep reading this BS (and no, not black smith) from Blizzard? And why aren't the fan bois screaming bloody murder to stop this crap?

    Instead of fucking with the hunter class, give a new race. And fix the crafting. Remove ALL armor that is dropped and allow only crafted armor/weapons/etc in the game. You raid, you can get the special mats needed, but you don't get a ilvl 805 from killing Ragger the Mean on heroic level.

    yeah, just perfect news to start Sunday morning with. time to play Aunty Elm the Paly.

    Yah, me aunt from the old country.

    -roo as always, a cuppa and biscuit and life is good.

    1. Yeap, BM will have one weapon next expansion, a gun. No changing no nothing. You can mog it into something else if you like but that one gun will be your one and only weapon all expansion long.

      You know it is actually BM because only BM would use a bear. :P

      BM will be a ranged class with a pet.
      MM will be a ranged class with no pet.
      SV will be a melee class with a pet.

      Yeah, I remember, I used to have mongoose bite, raptor strike and wing clip in a macro with disengage. It worked for a while too. Was awesome if I got too close, laid out a burst of damage, slowed them and got me at distance quick.

      I hated the dead zone. It was there, even if really small, up until they removed the range restriction on a ranged weapon.

      I am sure there are a lot of fan boys screaming bloody murder. While I am trying to be civil about it, I do not like the changes either.

      I usually get update from the front page of mmo-champion. Even if you just read there they will give nice tidbits on what is going on. Wowhead is also very good for that.

    2. I agree it should be a 4th spec option. And no survival should not be melee in fantasy survival is like famed Dritz he can melee and he can range. Beast master movies Beast master is melee only because he fights with his pets.

      Making survival melee goes against decades of fantasy hunter lore. Rangers are a type of hunter that can range or melee.

      Second ive played since day 1 as a survival hunter I had a 287 win 48 loss arena season last year. I have played survival for 10 years and now im cancelling my subscription because the took the only ranged class i like to play out of the game. I wouldve been ok with a deadzone and learning a melee/range play style but forcing my favorite class and soec to melee only im done ill find a new game owned by someone else to give my money to thx blizz for screwing over a dedicated player.

      I also know of 3 other people that already quit for the same reason they loved survival ranged.

  2. I don't like the BM with a gun choice, but that was a coin toss; Blizz would have gotten it wrong one way or another between BM vs MM. At least I can xmog it to a bow, if I end up getting annoyed with the gun.

    Regarding MM, it makes sense to go full "lone wolf". However, I won't play it outside of group content. I do not like the playstyle of ranged w/o a pet; that's why I don't like my mage or shadow priest. I'd rather play melee (I generally enjoy my DK and feral). I wonder if MM will be able to have a pet for leveling or something; just something to hold aggro while questing.

    Regarding SV, my only real complaint is that we don't need another melee spec in the game. I don't know what kind of identity SV could have in order to make it ranged though. Traps are way too clunky to base the playstyle around, so if they stay ranged, they just end up slightly different than BM or MM, which is the "problem" that blizz is trying to address. I haven't heard too many times where people say they preferred SV, and when they did, they never really gave compelling reasons. I mainly just remember them saying it was easier to play... or that they didn't like managing a pet...

    1. At least you will be able to mog the gun into whatever you like. I never liked the gun sounds or even feel, yes it feels different to me, but I know people that love it and will only use guns. We are lucky we can mog between them.

      Same with me on MM. I do not mind the full lone wolf, but two things. I hope we will still be able to cast all buffs like we do now and I hope we can still call a pet, if need be. Just because I am solo in a raid does not mean I do not want a pet out while questing. There has to be an option to have a pet out still, but I doubt that will happen.

      We most definitely do not need anther melee spec. God knows what blizzard was thinking but they are dead wrong on this idea. We need another ranged class, not another melee one if anything.

      They could make it like I said in that one post where I said I did not like survival. The rapid fire always something lighting up super fast play style shooter, like it felt with the SoO tier set. In my opinion that was the best survival ever was and that is how it should play.

  3. GE, civil? Go on, you are kiddin' me. :) Anyway, yes, I am glad we can still transmorg, but what is that going to do to heirlooms? Spending all that gold to update the bow to use it and now I will not be able too? Sorry, but getting that gold for me is hard work. Harder to make money in the game than in real life.

    And I agree - we do not need a melee spec. Why be a hunter if you are going to melee? Really doesn't make sense to me. be a paly and have fun at your fingertips (watch it, NOT that kind of fun).

    Speaking of, I lost Mr. Sweet Bob last weds. He passed over the rainbow bridge, gently going into the night. I am at a lost with my bud. But he is buried with Miss Peachy.

    1. Heirlooms are still good for alts, but at 100, when heirlooms end anyway, you switch the artifact.

      Hunters are a ranged physical damage class. All the way back to vanilla when there really were not specs but trees and you could put your points everywhere. There was no melee option even if we had melee abilities. The description of the class was simple, a ranged physical damage dealer. That is how it should stay.

      Sorry to hear he passed.

    2. It may have been the description, but it wasn't fact. Actually in very early WOW, melee was an option. I remember reading a person who was keeping a diary online of his trials and tribulations as a Melee only hunter. It was funny, but good.

      But it was an option just like warriors and rogues who could use a gun - they weren't ranged killers with a pet, but could use the weapon to take ownership of the mob. The same for hunters who use a 2-handed or even could use dual wield. Ha, I bet you don't remember that! Nearly all of my many thousand of duels was with a melee weapon in hand.

      How things come back full circle. Still seems like a joke that things are still being fooked with.

    3. It might have been an option but it was never a "good"option.

      I remember that. Saddest part of this change for me is I had a polearm I had for mogging that I vendored off just a couple of weeks ago. Now it is gone and I can never get it back as it is no longer in game. But I would have loved to have it for my SV hunter. I hate when they change stuff like that.

  4. I am in agreement with just about everything you said, Grumpy, and add a little bit. Ok, its me, Thuggs, lets be honest, a lot of bit.

    Class Identity.when introducing people to wow and they ask about the classes my default description is, "Hunters are ranged damage dealers with a pet to help protect you and be your companion on your travels."

    Fundamentally, this has been their identity for 8-10 years, depending if you want to count the half ass melee stuff all hunters did in vanilla and BC. Why is it so important to me that they are changing the fundamentals? Because these fundamentals are the bedrock of my relationship with my character, the skill sets I've developed with him, and my relationship to my communities: Raiding, Guild, Pug, etc.

    How does this differ from all the constant spec and class revamps before? These other modifications and changes did not invalidate an entire skillset and training. When MM was revamped to have sniper training, it affected my gameplay, but I had the skills to adapt. I knew what less movement at ranged looked and felt like. I knew what I could do and others weakenesses from covering other classes like stationary rdps. My time and investment in learning my role and all my abilities could translate.

    By moving SV to melee, Blizzard has invalidated whole skill sets that I've developed over thousands of hours. You've effectively made 1/3rd of my options, disappear. I concede that the MM changes aren't as drastic, but there's a big difference between running with no pet at specific times and never having a pet. Big gameplay difference, because it will no longer play like hunter. It'll play like a mage or elemental shaman, and there's a great option if I wanted that play style, I'D ROLL ONE!

    I've dabbled in other classes, Pally tank, Monk dps, Shaman healing/elemental and tried everything else, but those others never got about 20-30th level, because I did NOT enjoy any of their gameplay.

    I a one girl kind of guy. My chosen character is where i've invested 90% of my time into and I'm still just offended, hurt and depressed, that my investment is being slashed and a large part thrown into the rubbish bin.

    More importantly are the consequences. Yes, I can focus on BM with my shitty gun (and don't tell me mog it because then I never get to have fun with cool skins and looks) Or Marksman and i'm sure I could succeed. I'm sure I could compete in my heroic progression team and contribute positively. However, I can't. Its spoiled the well of joy and passion for me. All the while playing , I'll be reminded at what I have lost and no hope of regaining.

    When other readers read this and say to themselves, "come off it, don't be so melodramatic." I would ask you what your relative commitment level is to your hunter. Do you enjoy other classes, have other options? So please put yourselves in my shoes. I only love playing the hunter, and I've invested everything into that play. I'm sure you can see how significant my feelings on these matters.

    1. It is a very good point, even more so for someone that never had any melee experience before. It completely invalidates everything they learned and the ability to adapt when their class changes.

      I believe anyone that feels a deep connection with the class and never really liked any other class but that one would completely understand the feeling you and many hunters have. Some people will surely come out with "but you do not have the play that spec" and while it might be true to some extent, we should never be put into the position where we would have to consider it. We signed up for, and feel in love with, a ranged physical damage dealer with a pet and that is exactly what we should have.

  5. I can definitely see why some hunters would get upset over these changes, but overall I think that they add more to the hunter class, and give more options than what hunters have now. Example…currently you have a ranged class with a pet, a ranged class with a pet and a ranged class with a pet. The only variation comes from rotation and cool downs. Yes, there is also the glyph for lone wolf which acts differently depending upon spec and there are also exotic beasts for BM. But the glyph works for all specs and the exotic beasts, as far as I am aware, do not make the BM spec the must have spec.

    If you like your ranged class with a pet…you will still have it. The rotation will most definitely change, but in what expansion do specs and rotation not change? Now for those hunters who only like to play their one character, they can have multiple play styles without having to reroll multiple toons. The argument about one spec using a gun vice a bow, to me anyway is an issue of personal preference. As far as aesthetics are concerned, you may not like transmogrification, but this type of situation is exactly why it is there for.

    You can also have multiple specs and switch between them as needed. You want a pet while questing? Use your BM spec. What to lone wolf in a raid? You got your MM.

    Is there a distinct possibility that one spec will be better than the others? I hate to be that guy, but welcome to WoW. Ask how demonology warlocks are doing right now. Or how balance in PVP is. There will always be one spec, class or play style that is superior to the others.

    Should this stop you from playing the spec you like? That depends. Are you in a world first guild where that kind of thing matters, are you in a casual guild where is doesn’t matter, are you even in a guild at all? Only you can answer that question, but without any numbers to back up my next point, I am willing to bet that world first guilds make a up very small percentage of the overall population. Also that those world first guilds will use whatever spec and class will get them that world first regardless of other considerations or available hunter specs.

    Can blizzard mess this up? Absolutely!!! We will, of course, get more information in the future. But as far as general ideas go…I like this one.

    1. Except it will stop you from playing the spec you like because the spec you like will be gone. And it will not be easy at all to just switch specs, because remember you will have to grind a weapon on each spec.

      The way the class is now gives you far more real choice than the proposed setup. Want to play in melee range -- can do it. Want to play ranged -- yep. Want to play without a pet -- no problem. Want to stand still and be rewarded for long cast times -- got you covered. Want your pet to do significant damage -- BM is for you.

      So I don't see how the new structure does anything but remove choice from hunters. If you want to play at range with a pet, you will have exactly one and only one choice. It would be as if they took demon control away from one warlock spec, made a second lock spec melee only, and left one spec with both demon and ranged.

      And it is not just a matter of "rotation change". It is an entirely different game play style. As if warriors were suddenly ranged dps. All those years of them learning how to excel in melee range would be useless, they would have to learn an entirely different play style.

      This is nothing less than the dismantling of the hunter class.

    2. Thank you very much, It's a fundamental change, not an adaptation or reinterpretation, well see Fiannor,

    3. @Anon

      If the melee class is a tank, then it gives options. If it is a melee DPS, it does not. Hunters can stand at ranged or in melee anyway. So they do not need to be melee to be in melee range with the exception of a few raid mechanics here and there.

      So it is not so much a choice, and even more so will not be a choice if survival turns out to sim as the best. Because as we all know, anyone that raids, even at the normal level, will feel they need to be the best they can be and that forces them to play melee.

      At least with warlocks there class does not fundamentally change if one spec is better than another. They are still a ranged caster just as the hunter should be a ranged physical damage dealer. And let me remind you, hunters are the only ones that fit that bill. If you are going to change anyone, change casters to melee as there are no caster melee but every other melee is physical. Hunters do not fill a role there, so they are not needed there.

      And as Fiannor said, what if you are the type that does not go with whatever spec is tops and survival is your favorite. You can not just change them to melee. That would be like changing a blood DK into a ranged casters and a restoration shaman into a tank. You can not just change what a class fundamentally is supposed to be doing.

      If they wanted a melee hunter spec they should add a 4th spec, not change survival, that is a fair compromise. If they are dead set no hunters having a melee spec that is how you do it.

  6. I'll be the odd man out and say these changes have me interested in playing a hunter for the first time since I started playing 9 years ago, similar to how warlocks getting an overhaul for mop seemed to spark new life into the class. I understand long time hunter players being averse to the survival changes though, I never really adjusted to my dk after the cata changes to specs and rune regen. I'll be unusually optimistic for once and hope it ends up being an overall positive change.

    1. For someone that enjoys melee I can see this as a great way to bait them into playing hunters. Now you can raid as melee if you like it and can switch to BM to have a pet tank for questing or solo if you wish. The best of both world.

      However, hunters are already the most played class in the game. They do not need to bait people over to play them like they did with locks where were, at the time, the least played class in the game. Not to mention, they do not need to add more clutter to the melee scene that is already receiving a melee hero class this expansion.

      So there is no logical reason for this change. None what so ever. Unless their intention was to get some people to quit playing a hunter so it would not be the most played class. With blizzard, you never know.

  7. I like the change. I like having a little more variety in my class. Now we as hunters can play as melee or ranged. I'm not sure how succesful the change will be (unless Survival much outperforms the other specs). I think most people play a hunter because it is ranged and the other reasons you pointed out Grumpy. They play a hunter because they don't like melee.

    Let's be honest hunters... there is very little difference between hunter specs. Each has a signature ability (Kill Command, Chimera and Black Arrow), a focus gain shot, filler shot (arcane,aimed) and one other unique ability (Focus Fire, Rapid Fire and DoTs for SV). It's only recently (and mostly through talents) that the specs have been diverging a bit more. I see the survival change as the next logical step.

    Hunters have been in melee before, way back we even had melee abilities. Does anyone remember Survival trap dancing in melee? (some time during Cata?) I do. This is a good change in my opinion.

    I know there are hunters that love one spec over the others. They have a favorite. I favor BM, but I generally follow the deeps just because that's the type of player I am. I know others stick to one spec no matter what, but what exactly is it really about that spec? It can't really be rotation, because they aren't much different, we all look the same, wear the same gear use the same trinkets and weapons. I think it's smaller than that, I think it's more for historical/emotional reasons or just general stubbornness.

    I don't think they will make survival the overall number one spec, that would be a huge mistake. If it's slightly better on certain fights that's fine, that's not enough to force anyone other than world firsters to change. It's rare to see a dps druid switch between feral and balance just because one is better for certain fights. That's where we will be with survival.

    We have no idea about the gameplay, some melee attacks, trapping, who knows what else. It could be cool, let's see. I still think it will be one of the least played specs, but I'm ok with shaking things up each expansion.

    1. If you break things down to basics all classes could be considered the same like that. All melee are "hit these buttons in this order". So the fact they are similar does not really make much of a difference and should never be used to dictate change.

      Hunters were never melee, they had melee abilities yes, but they were never melee. No more than warriors and rogues were ranged because they had shoot and throw.

      I mostly feel bad for the people that loved the survival spec. Even if I didn't I can understand how they feel losing it like that. No real logic or reason behind it and most certainly not for the betterment of the game because the last thing the game needs is another melee class, even more so after adding a second melee hero class.

      I personally do not think there is anything to "lets see" about it. If you do not like to tank and your favorite spec became a tank you would not be happy, if you do not like to heal and your favorite spec became a healer you would not be happy, and as much as it makes sense if a frost mage was changed into a healer I am pretty damn sure the mage community would not go quietly into the night without a word. So the hunter community should do the same and defend their class to keep it a pure physical ranged DPS class as it should be and always has been.

      Not saying I do not like the idea of a melee hunter. In all honesty I could see myself playing around with it and maybe even liking it. But that does not change the fact that survival should not be changed to a melee class. The spec is ranged and it should stay ranged. If they wanted hunters to have a melee spec they should have added a 4th spec.

    2. Hunters really only had melee abilities as a way to get back into range. That dreaded dead zone was probably to blame. Get rid of that and you could get rid of the melee abilities.

    3. Yeah, that is exactly what they did as far as I can remember.

      I think they removed mongoose bite first and then removed raptor strike and wing clip later. I am not completely sure if I am remembering that accurately, but I believe it is how it was. We lost all the melee type talents when we lost the ability to pick our own talents. (which I still dislike that they did)

  8. What can we do about it, though? I agree with you that the hunter community needs to lobby hard against this, but we have seen that Blizz will change nothing unless it is a flying-in-Draenor type response. Which will not happen with this, nor should it. Strong emotion may be out of place, but on the other hand I feel like Blizz only pays attention when a lot of people throw tantrums, which is a shame.

    I feel very helpless, because there seems to be no official way for hunters to register their strong objections with Blizz. I do not count the "official" @WarcraftDevs Twitter account. Is there such a person as the main honcho dev hunter at Blizz? I feel like a few comments in the class forum at Blizz will be useless, and honestly I feel like 8-10 hunters writing blogs about it will not help either, though a series of well-reasoned strongly written posts from respected hunters such as you, Bendak, maybe a couple of others, might help.

    Honestly, I am just completely demoralized by this. More so because as usual Blizz has given us no reason beyond "de-homogenization" which in my opinion is as vague and weak as the "immersion" no-fly justification.

    1. Agreed, I have enjoyed Survival alot since it was more mobile than MM and slightly less pet dependant than BM. I will continue to play MM/BM as long as they are fun to play, but I am very depressed because I just lost a spec option. My hunter is now a two spec class for me. If someone asked me to play Survival I would say no. I will never play a melee Survival, since I just don't like melee. I would quit or play a different class before being forced into a playstyle I don't enjoy. I love my hunter, and this is making me very upset.

      Less options are never a good thing. I don't have any hope of Blizzard keeping Survival ranged which makes me feel very helpless. Our objections are often/usually ignored.

    2. Not sure we can do anything about it but we, as a community have changed blizzard mind before. We have saved percussive shot from the chopping block on multiple occasions as well as some other abilities such as masters call.

      Admittedly this is a lot larger than keeping them from removing abilities, but if we speak our minds and let them know how we feel, maybe, just maybe, one of us can make a logical reasonable argument that someone at blizzard can agree with and even if it is a snowballs chance in hell, they might change something.


      You should voice that point as an excellent one. They say part of the reason is to change the specs so they are not all the same. You, in one reply, just proved that they are not the same. Similar yes, but not the same. You liked survival for its mobile play style without a dependance on the pet. Whereas BM has mobility but with a pet doing all the work and MM can either have or not have a pet but is less mobile.

      They are three different specs that play three different ways. There is no need to make one melee to make it different, it already is different, and you said it.

    3. Yep they are similar, but not the same. So many people who are for this changed on the forums claim Survival was never unique. I disagree with that of course. I have stated what I wrote here on the forums, but they kept on saying Survival needed to be melee to be unique. After being forced into MM/BM far more this expansion it becomes even more clear how they differ.

      I would not mind Blizzard changing Survival if it still remained a ranged mobility focued spec. I've dealt with alot of changes I disagreed with and didn't find fun on both my hunter and druid. However, never before has the fundamental nature of my class changed. I've spent eight years now honing my ranged abilites both as a dps and as a healer. I have given both melee dps and tanking a fare shot over the years, but I just don't enjoy it.

      I'm not sure how much it reflects the general population, but alot of people on the forums are for this change. They are extremely hostile toward anyone who wants Survival to remain ranged. Apparently having all ranged specs is just not unique enough. I am curious if Mages/Locks/Rogues will be going through a similar ordeal in the future. I think the best we can hope for now is MM getting some of Survival's abilities and becoming more mobile.

    4. I had a post earlier in the week just before this change was announced saying I never liked survival for such a long time and it only just recently found its own identity, in my mind.

      Funny how I finally saw it had its own identity and then they decide to remove it because it does not have its own identity.

      I think this is a standard case of blizzard just making up excuses to change things. It had its own feel and was different enough from the other two specs. If anything the three mage specs are more similar than the three hunter specs were. The three rogue specs are most definitely more similar than the three hunter specs. Yet they leave them alone.

      Not sure why people support it, we need more ranged classes than we need melee. It would make more sense if they were changing a rogue spec to ranged than changing any spec to melee.

      Just look at recruitment on any forum anywhere on any server. Ranged, ranged, ranged and ranged are what they seek. The game does not need more melee. That is the bottom line.

  9. I guess Blizzard thinks these hunter changes will be fun, but what it's doing to my poor hunter is just making her another grumpy elf. :P

    1. Join the family.

      I really wish we could change their opinion on the matter. But I am not sure we could. I will keep trying however by doing what is it I do, complain. :)

  10. I find it interesting that the new Demon Hunter spec adds melee, and SV is changed to melee. Is there some game mechanic coming in Legion that will make melee more important? Maybe the thinking is "lots of people play Hunter, we need more melee, let's allow Hunters to do melee"? Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit.....

    Blizz knew this was coming so they've done everything they can to put people off playing SV in WoD. Maybe Fire mages are going melee too as they seem to have had similar treatment? ;-)

    Legion has been in development for over a year, we're told, and yet a Q&A session on Sunday turned into a vague hint farce that seemingly took Blizz employees by surprise too.

    Blizz look like a rudderless supertanker to me at the moment.

    1. Most raids shun melee like the plague as it is. Not sure why they would want to add more to an already over crowded area of the game. It makes no sense.

      Being SV was doing less than the tanks for a long time, I think they planned to get everyone away from playing SV so they would not fight the change. That is why they nerfed SV or hard, or it sure seems so now.

  11. Should I keep playing, I'll pretty much be down to one spec. I won't melee. Survival dps could be 100 times greater and I won't melee.

    I like having a pet. It is a large part of why I chose to be a hunter ten years ago. I won't use lone wolf now. Again, dps could be a 100 times greater and I'd still use a pet. That leaves marksman out of my toolbox.

    So, I'll be a BM hunter alone for eternity. Gee, thanks Blizzard. Three choices to one.

    And if the dps is screwed up and this time BM is in the tank, that'd be the nail in the coffin for me. I'd move on from the game.

    Man, there are a lot of those nails hanging over the coffin right now. Blizzard really needs to hit this out of the park to keep me around! :-(

    1. I think that is a big problem with the switch. A great many hunters just do not like melee. That is partly why they play a class that has no melee spec. So they are effectively removing the survival option from the game for them.

      I like a pet for most things but I do not mind no pet in a raid. I can live with that. But I agree, hunters should have a pet. Which, as you said, leaves BM as the only option.

      Blizzard keeps adding more nails every chance they get. It is sad to see a game you love moving in the wrong direction. But I guess it happens to everything.

  12. Honestly Grumpy, I am glad to see SV become the melee spec that I believe Hunters should have had early on (Raptor Strike and Volley had BETTER be coming back!).

    However, after reading your post I am beginning to side with you on making the melee spec for Hunters be a fourth spec and keeping SV as a ranged spec (with the crossbow as their Artifact weapon). You still run into the "what if the melee spec is far superior than the other ranged specs", but I will agree that the melee spec should be an additional spec and not a conversion of SV. Honestly, I was more happy hearing that the Hunter melee spec would include a pet. I raided as an Unholy DK in Wrath and Cata and loved having a pet with me as melee.

    It does concern me that the melee spec could be the "goto" spec, and I hope that doesn't happen. I think I will have less of an issue playing as a melee Hunter than many would, but it should NEVER come down to that choice at all... EVER. If anything, the melee spec (and yes, I do hope it's coming as a fourth spec now) should be just below at least one of the ranged specs. Not by a huge margin, but just below - at least one, if not two or all ranged specs.

    1. It was not so much as I did not want a melee spec, it was more I did not want what we have to change. I personally believe adding a forth spec would be the way to go or to not do it at all. But of course that is just my opinion.

      If the melee spec becomes the "go to" spec I am afraid my days of playing a hunter in raids are over. I would rather main a tank if I have to be in melee. I don't even think there should be a melee class in game unless it is for tanking purposes. I hate melee with a passion. Odd how I like to tank but hate to DPS as one isn't it?

      I agree that we should never be put into that situation but that is exactly what blizzard is going to do, they are going to put us in that situation. I personally think the melee spec should be the last of the specs under all situations. It could be close to them, but it should be last. Hunters should only ever have to go to melee if a mechanic requires it and the group is short on melee. Because, lets face it, no group is ever short on hunters.

    2. Agreed! Believe me, I totally get the "I'd rather tank than spank" when your only DPS option is melee. It's the main reason my warrior only tanks (Gladiator when questing or what have you). I don't mind DPS'ing on my DK though, but that's mainly because I have fun DPS'ing on my DK and I am very familiar with playing him.

      Here's hoping that they bring back raid mechanics (other than Adds, Adds and more Adds of Adds...) that require Hunters to be at range... kiting if you will. I'm glad that at least Archimonde has that spot for us Hunters in P3 to do something that other classes can't easily do. I would like to see more of this but in more creative ways. I'm not saying design the raid around ranged Hunters... well, on second thought... yeah.... design the raid around ranged Hunters! ;-)

    3. Same for my warrior. Love love love the addition of gladiator. My DK I DPS in my tank gear, sometimes in my tank spec too. My paladin and druid heal and my monk DPS's, because I never got enough healing gear for it to heal, or it would do that too.

      I play by this rule set.

      If it can tank it tanks.
      If it can heal it heals.
      If it can't do anything else it deals damage.

      For me it is a list of easiest to hardest role. I find tanking in an organized setting to be easiest role in the game, by an extremely long shot. Healing can most definitely be more challenging but as long as enough people live to kill the boss you did fine and being a damage dealer is the hardest. Why is that? Because of numbers. When a fight is over and everyone (or some people) is alive and the boss dies the tank did their job, the healers did their job, and however is near the top of the charts did their job, everyone else needs to get better. That is why DPS is the hardest role. Even when you win, if you are not near the pack at the top, you lost.

      Some fights like blackfuse seemed to be designed with hunters in mind. I think whenever there is a special duty task involved the developers ask themselves, can hunters do this? If yes, lets keep it.

  13. BM is the path I choose my first day in WOW back over 10 years ago. And played it since. Yeah, I tried SV and MM. But never develop a love for ether.

    IMHO even though it is a game, I figured if I am a hunter and I have a pet that protects me as well as the pets do, then I best learn how to protect it as well or take care of it. And that is beast master. Thru thick and then, thru the horrible changes to the good ones now, I stuck with it.

    So, I can understand the complaints and the fussing and bitching. And I am with you all SV's and MM's.

    1. It would suck to lose a spec you have always used. There are some that are as diehard SV as you are BM and have always used it through ups and downs. Those are the people I feel bad for most.

  14. Basically SV hunters are going to be squishy tanks, play "fetch" with a stick with their pets. Real smooth move Blizzard. I remember Vanilla, where it was a case of "No pet = road kill" for hunters. So are they giving SV hunters or MM Hunters plate? If not then it will be SV and MM hunters will be road kill as soon as they step out of towns.