Friday, February 13, 2015

Off Base Blue Posts on Reforging Bother Me

Get ready for rant time, because a blue post annoyed me and I want to have some fun complaining about it.

I have always been against the removal of reforging.  Despite the countless posts made about it I still do not understand blizzards reason for removing it and oddly enough every time one of the blues makes a post concerning its removal I understand less why it was removed.  It is almost as if they are defending its removal by making me want it back even more with what they say.

Some people love the removal of reforging, some people hate it.  We, as the paying and playing customers, have the rights to our opinions.  There is nothing wrong about us not agreeing on things because not everyone shares the same opinions.  And that is the problem with the blue responses when it comes to reforging.  They are taking their opinion (the company line if you will) and saying it is fact.

It is really starting to piss me off that they keep throwing around their opinions as facts when there is, as a fact, entire parts of the community that vocally disagrees with them.  They need to stop saying that "reforging was not engaging game play", just because it wasn't for them.  That doesn't mean it wasn't for me or many others that would like to see reforging return. 

I do not find transmog to be engaging game play, but I don't go around saying it isn't.  So they should not go around saying reforging wasn't engaging game play even if was just changing numbers just because they do not find it to be so.  That is an opinion, they need to stop spewing that garbage as fact.

Here is the question and answer taken from the blue tracker over at MMOC that bugged me, basically because of the double talk that contradicted itself. 

Their original reason for removing Reforging was the fact that everyone was using it solely to maintain Hit and Expertise cap. with those two stats gone, I legitimately see no reason why Reforging cannot be brought back and used in the way it was originally designed for.

That was one part, but the bigger part was that it doesn't actually improve the game experience. There are still soft caps for some stats, but ultimately Reforging just didn't provide any engaging gameplay to get an item and then reforge it to whatever your best stat is based on a sim or recommendation from a website. That's not creating engaging gameplay. If the desire for Reforging is based on "I'd like to make my items better by picking the stats I want more." the simpler answer there, and the one that does create engaging gameplay and interaction with the game world and other players, is "Get better items."

This reply, made by Bashiok, once again show how completely clueless he is.

"The bigger part was that it doesn't actually improve the game experience".  I have two responses to this line alone, one short one, and one longer rant.  The short one comes first.

How did reforging not improve my game experience?  I really would like to hear him explain that.  Having better stats for my class and spec made my experience worse?  Having more options for upgrades made my experience worse?  Having the power to switch from a mastery build to a haste build on the fly made my experience worse?

I want to tap him on the head a few times yelling, think McFly, think.  Seriously Baskiok, how did having more options make my game experience worse, I would like to know.

Now to the meat.

"The bigger part was that it doesn't actually improve the game experience" is one loaded line if I ever read one.  Who says it doesn't improve the game experience?  It sure as hell improves mine.  I like when I get a piece of gear and it is an upgrade, I dislike when I get a piece of gear and it is not.  I am absolutely sure I am not alone with that sentiment. 

When I can get a new item which should be an upgrade and it is not because my lesser item level piece is perfectly itemized but the better item level piece has my two worst secondary stats on it, it sucks.  My so called upgrade is actually a down grade, that is not, repeat, not improving my game experience. 

With reforging around that piece might, just might, still be an upgrade now.  Without reforging it gets disenchanted and is a temporal crystal at best.  Is that really something that is helping my over all experience in game?  The fact that the one time I can loot the boss that week I won an upgrade that was not actually an upgrade?

There are opinions and we are all entitled to them but saying something like that is not an opinion.  You might like reforging, you might hate reforging, that is an opinion.  But saying that you removed it for "the bigger part" because it doesn't improve game play is not an opinion, it is an outright falsehood.  It is a lie.  You are allowed your own opinions but do not lie and call it fact.  Do not say it does not improve game play because you do not like it, or because the company line tells you to say that because that is a lie.  It might not improve your game play because you dislike it, but to say that because you do not like it that it is fact for everyone when it is not.

Bashiok goes on in the same reply to say if your sole reason for wanting reforging is to get better stats on an item that it would be more engaging game play to go and get better items.  But what if the better item you seek does not exists which is the case for a great many slots for a great many classes?

Lets go through this step by step so I can explain how this is double talk and faulty logic.

So he says that getting better items is engaging game play right?
So that means he acknowledges that getting better stuff is engaging game play right?
So if reforging makes better stuff shouldn't that fit into his description of engaging game play?

He said getting better items is engaging game play but in the same breath he says reforging was not engaging game play because it makes items better.  That makes absolutely no sense.  Does he even have a clue what he is talking about?

So Bashiok, I ask you.  Is getting better items engaging game play or not?  Can't have it both ways.  If getting better items is engaging game play than reforging should return, if getting better items is not engaging game play than reforging should stay gone.  I am using your logic here.  Now pick a side and stand on it. 

If you say getting better items is not engaging game play I will ask you to never upgrade your gear again, because that is not engaging game play.  Oh wait, you can't do that because that is what the entire game is about, getting better gear.  Guess you were right, getting better items is engaging game play.  Guess that means reforging, even if your opinion was you disliked it, is engaging game play as well.

So please stop with the garbage remarks Bashiok and start pushing for reforging to be returned to the game.  You said so yourself in the post you made, even if you did not intend to, that reforging is in fact engaging game play.  There was no reason for it to be removed in the first place.  Reworked, maybe, removed, no.


  1. As a Blood DK, I have a choice between multistrike for more dps or mastery for more surivival.

    There isn't a magic number at which I decide to use one or the other.

    It's engaging to choose between the two and see how much mastery survival I can sacrifice for the extra dps multistrike I can stack and still not die.

    I do this with trinkets, other gear, and GEMS.

    I only have 2 gem slots, but it's really easy to switch out gems and if I were using expensive gems I could alter my stats by +100 multistrike or +100 mastery, which is not insignificant.

    Why don't they remove gems?


    p.s. I want reforging back. Please don't remove gems.

    1. I can also game my food buff stat by removing gear so my secondary stat is either multistrike or mastery depending on what I am stacking more.

      I'm not sure whether that qualifies as engaging.

    2. You are getting exactly at what I loved it for. As a damage dealer it was always black and white, always will be, best is best, end of story. But for someone like a blood DK it was about feel, for healers and tanks it was like that, and it was awesome to have the ability to tweak it and try to see what works for you.

      I want reforging back too. And do not give them any ideas about gems, they might listen to you. lol

    3. Yeah, hate that you have to do that to get the right buff.

      I just went the lazy route and made myself multistirke food and carry around a few stacks of it. Can't be bothered to remember to take off, and more importantly, put on gear every time I eat.

  2. Can't help but be cynical: reforging is gone because it let you turn bad drops into at least ok ones, reducing the need (and time) to grind. Bashiok's response says it all: "our solution if you're not happy with your drop is for you to queue up to try again." Some things got easier -- garrison missions get you into starter gear quickly, some things got harder -- good stat sets require more time committment.

    1. Yes, it was good for the reason you said it was taken away. Because it turned useless gear into something that might be suitable to use. I really have a hard time seeing what is so bad about that. Isn't the idea of the game to "gear up"?

      There is nothing wrong with getting filler gear with reforging, as you mentioned, while you wait for the better piece. It is all part of the gearing process. Same as those garrison missions are part of the gearing process, and dungeons are part of the gearing process, and LFR is part of the gearing process, and normal.. etc. you get the idea. There was absolutely zero reason to remove it. Anyone that things otherwise is willfully blind.

      Using that logic, might as well remove the crafted gear, dungeon gear, missions gear, garrison gear, hell all gear, because it is "only" part of the gearing process.

    2. This is the most likely reason, especially as WoD is very, very empty without the Dark Iron Relic Coffer-esque 'joy of gearing'

      (which btw they made a funny 6.1 vid about:


      While annoying at 100, the removal of Reforging is even more so for content that was made with Reforging in mind, most notably the MoP content that is endgame for the many Expansion Holdouts.

      (To get an idea on how many: in the EU, you'll get a pop on Random Scenario - only avialable at 90 iirc - within scant minutes even in the dead of the night).

      If you add it to other changes, like keeping the old Honor prices while removing the Honor Dailies and Weeklies for 90's and lower (Grizzly Hills, Wintergrasp and TB, Krasarang Wildss, Northrend Dungeon Honor, conversion of JP's to Honor) and more to come (6.1 will apparently lower the all too important random BG Honor bonus for more irrelevant XP), as well as all noticeable Gear improvements from WoD (Archeology, Craftables and Garrison Missions) being level 91+ , they're making it very unattractive to play at 90.

      With however MoP having actual content to do and in general a far better endgame experience for the majority of the players (WoD might be fine for Raiders but...well, you know the rest) that may not be the best strategy.

      But hey, let them continue to piss off subscribers in feeble attempts to sell more boxes (invariably ending up being given for free), and then wonder why your stock value is dropping.

      /rant ;)

    3. Wow, that is a lot of people that have not upgraded their expansion yet if you still get randoms that fast at 90. Dungeons are not even that fast at prime time at 100.

      The problem here is blizzard does not give a crap about you or anyone else that is not playing current content. They never have and they never will. They design for the end game and say screw everyone else. I personally do not agree with it, but what you are saying really shows the huge impact of it with loss of honor gains and no reforging being part of the issue.

      WoD sucks for raiders. It is, without doubt, the single worst raiding experience I have ever had since I started playing. The raids might be okay, but the scaling is horrible, the flexible is creating more drama than it should, and mythic being 20 man only is killing guilds like mine that do not have the people to do it and can't seem to recruit enough to try.

      WoD killed the raiding experience in wow.

    4. Yeah, those super-short queues for Scenario's had me flabberghasted as well. During MoP, Holdouts were very common as well but that partially had to do with still being effective in PvP/having Rated Arena's, which isn't currently the case anymore.

      I chalk it to the combination of the BattleChest being more competively priced with other MMORPG's (as far as newcomers are concerned) and the very dark clouds regarding WoD 'even' before launch/wide-spread issues with WOD being (basically) a bad buy (as far as the more established Holdouts are concerned).

      I know the devs don't give two hoots about anything outside certain current end-game niches - which btw they have said so themselves, albeit a bit more obfuscated - but for some reason I still have this hope that, especially when the golden goose is getting constipated, Activision/someone will step in and basically force a more intelligent treatment of customers.

      WoW is a sub game with an Item Shop and Paid Services, time and again the earning calls show that this is the main source of income, meaning you want happy subscibers that buy crap for their characters - the actual box they have barely factors in that (heck, the PR-important mass of Chinese players doesn't even need to buy boxes, period). Also, only 6% or so Raids so keep that other 94% happy, too.

      The odd thing is, with MoP they seemed to be 'getting it. Say what you want about it, but it was absolutely brimming with content for most types of players (PvP became a mess over the expac, and the Accountwide Achievements killed-off most Vanity Twinking, but still).

      WoD however killed-off most gameplay, and now I hear from you that even Raiding isn't that fun anymore to its target audience.

      Damn I want to hear the q1 2015 stats :P

    5. The battle chest having everything up to, but not including, the current expansion, was one of the best business moves blizzard has ever made. Years back I made a post about the cost of starting the game and said it would be a problem if something was not done about it. This seems to have settled that. Glad they did it. Could you just imagine if people needed to spend 30 each for the base and 4 expansions before getting the new one? The game would never see any new players at that price.

      The last number I read, albeit some time ago, was 7% of characters raid, but even at that is a tiny percentage. Blizzard needs to get off this raid or die horse, even more so that they have now beaten that horse to death. Raiding is dying a horrible death as I see it now.

      I think my problem is I might need to find a new guild. One that is actively raiding, has CM groups, has PvPers that are willing to learn with a new player or just have some fun in threes. My guild, while full of great people I really love, just doesn't want to do anything any more. And hey, I can't blame them, this expansion, I really do not want to do anything any more either.

  3. I actually like it that i can just equip the newly dropped item without having to go to town and reforge it. Enchantments and gems can be carried around with you. Reforging cannot.

    1. Don't get me wrong, I actually like that idea too. But putting on that piece of gear is not always best. If you have something warforged slightly lower, or with a gem slot, or with both perhaps, or with better secondaries, it could be a better item.

      So basically we went from "having to go out to see what mr robot said to reforge to" to "having to go out and see what mr robot says about the item and if it is really an upgrade".

      So they changed nothing.

      However, if reforging was still in game the higher item level item would be more likely to be better in most cases. Not to mention, in every raid group there is usually someone with the reforge (now transmog) mount, so it is not like reforging was ever an issue to begin with. Just math, and they removed the math with caps. Now it would be easy, reforge the worst stat into the best, done, no need to tab out and look elsewhere. Wasn't that what they were aiming for?

  4. Reforging always felt awful as a game mechanic to me and I'm glad it's gone. Sure, it let you turn poorly itemized great into slightly passable gear. It also meant you used websites/mods while standing in front of an NPC reforging every piece of equipment every single time you got one upgrade. Remember when you could get a raid drop and equip it for use during the next boss? Me neither, it's been too long. At least gems/enchants are easy to apply.

    I can also appreciate the argument that removing Reforging actually makes the game LESS grindy, rather than more. When there are a half-dozen "slightly okay with Reforging" items, you basically have to go for all of them. These days you know exactly which pieces are upgrades and you have your one shot (or whatever) at getting them. Didn't drop? Try again next week instead of spending another dozen hours fighting for the slightly-less-useful pieces.

    1. I think you mostly used 3rd party addons/sites because it was hell to calculate how much hit/expertise/haste/whatever (soft)cap you had. When I first heard reforging went away, I too, was happy..until I found out that caps where also going away...

    2. @Azuriel

      I agree with the comment that at least now you know exactly which ones to aim for, instead of I could use "all of those if I reforge". But as someone with horrible loot luck, I liked having more options instead of less. That of course is opinion based and we differ there.

      As Andre said, most used 3rd party programs and that is why some say it became a hassle. Being there are no caps any longer, no need for a 3rd party to help. Just make your worst stat your best stat and be done with it.


      I was like you. I did not mind it going away until they removed the one reason it was "work" with caps. Once they removed caps, I was really upset they got rid of it. It was no longer mathy, as they suggested, without caps, so there was no longer any need to remove it. Still makes no sense that they did.

  5. This is a rant I myself have had more than once. If you think about it, interestingly, they didn't exactly remove reforging. They just made it so you can only do it on your crafted pieces, with a crap shoot as to what you will end up with. Apparently this exercise in futility IS engaging game play.

    If you play a class such as hunter, where all the specs have the same primary stats, secondary stats are pretty important. I don't do high end raiding, but for people who do, I suspect that the random stats on your gear play a significant role in your spec selection. This is just very wrong, and absolutely not my idea of engaging play.

    I, too, want reforging back. Bring it back, Blizz, and for Bashiok let me just point out, if you don't like doing it, then don't. But let the rest of us get the most out of the gear we have.

    1. Rerolling stats on crafted gear is nothing even close to engaging. Annoying, yes, frustrating, absolutely, busy work, hell yes, but engaging, not even slightly.

      Even if you do not do high end raiding, if your best stat is, for example, multistrike, wouldn't you want multistrike on every piece of gear? Having the right stats is not just for end game raiding, it is for anyone that wants the most out of their character, even if they are just beating on beasts to trap them. The right stats matter... to everyone.

  6. One more thought, which is possibly Blizz could fix this without going back to the evil reforging. Add secondary stats to the calculations for the gear you get when you select your loot spec. So for example if I select SV as my hunter loot spec, I will get gear with multistrike on it, not -- as it is now -- agility and whatever the RNG gods want to give me for secondary stats, which invariably seems to be mastery. In fact, for the non-hybrid classes, selecting a loot spec now is a completely useless exercise.

    1. I think adding reforging back is just easier.

      Or if they want to go the "engaging" reroll route, add reroll items for raid gear as well that professions can craft. That would be, even if annoying, an option.

    2. That right there is a brilliant idea. Add drops to the bosses that, when combined with craft appropriate mats, produce a doodad that lets me reroll the damn raid drops (hell, add them to the heroic 5 man stuff for the same purpose)

      The fact that there are several raid drops that itemize stats that suck for ALL my spec choices is just dumb. And it's really not adding to my game experience in a positive way...

    3. Adding them to 5 mans might even give people the incentive to run them a little more. As it is there really is none other wise.

      Seems like it would be a "fair" idea. Not the best of course because you can reroll 100 times and never get what you want, but at least it would offer and option. Something blizzard does not offer at all now.

  7. Look, I originally sided with blizz when they removed reforging. Being able to equip a freshly dropped item without further detours via AMR and main city, apart from the occasional gem or enchant, is just great. Not having to wait until the end of the raid and reforge and re-gem half the equipment because of a single upgrade is just wonderful. I really appreciate that nowdays, even when I've still not fully adjusted to it and always feel like I've forgotten something whenever I get a new piece.

    However... Blizz fucked up second stats on Highmaul gear so much that I actually want reforging back. With hit gone, it is just a small thing that can be done on the fly with a Yak most of the time. Until the opening of BRF only, like, 10% of gear had multistrike on it. It is only now that I really start to appreciate SV, and I think that we should be able to customise our gear a little more in order to adapt to circumstances like that.

    1. You seem to have come around to what I said when they first said they were removing it.

      With the removal of hit and expertise, reforging is no longer some big math deal, you can just put it on and pick your best stats and go with it.

      I can't see how blizzard never noticed this. That reforging is probably more needed now than it was before. Because it would be easier and no longer something you needed to tab out for.

  8. I think Bashiok is trying to say that the process of having to reforge is not fun. It's one more tedium on top of enchanting and gemming that needs to be done with each piece of gear. Now we only have 4 enchant slots, not more spellthread, and gem sockets are minimal. (yes I only have highmaul lfr gear, so not aware of what drops from normal raids yet).

    The side-effect of reforging was the 'fun' part. It helped compensating for the lousy RNG drops that you got. Now that DPS gear can be used on my bear until a true bear replacement piece drops. Yes, I could run yet one more dungeon in order to get a better piece, while maintaining that lousy green tank staff, but why?

    1. The "act of reforging" is not fun. That I can agree with. However... "the act of having better gear" is fun. Reforging allows for that.

      This, reforging by process is fun. ;)

      I think that is what Bashiok and the people at blizzard did not notice when doing this. They just looked at the "act of reforging" not being fun and did not realize the fun part that came with it.

      Blizzard needs to admit they made a mistake and add it back into game. It is as simple as that.

  9. I originally was writing a comment just based on the title, but once I read your post further, my comment was almost verbatim what the player commented that the Blue responded to...

    Basically what the Blue and Blizz in general have been saying about reforging: We want you to bang your head against the wall raging at the RNG gods and the limited itemization of gear because that's "engaging gameplay".

    Don't really have anything else to add. Grumpy, Andre, Fiannor, and Ril already said what I would have said.

    1. I guess their idea of "fun" and mine greatly differ.

  10. I don't understand the game these days. Part of that is because I haven't made myself learn the new way as I don't 'need to' but the bigger part is annoyance.

    They said that they wanted to make the game simpler, so you could just throw an item on and play rather than gemming/enchanting/reforming etc. Before you could. However, those steps gave control. I knew my character, I understood the process. Now yeah did I get the stat priority from Theck? Yeah I'm not that smart but I felt like I understood what I needed to do and I could do it which felt good.

    With the changes to stats, changes to professions, new stats, removal of stats, no reforging etc. All at once I just don't understand the game anymore. I learnt the old system and maybe I'm selfish, maybe I'm mean but I liked understanding it, I liked how it was. In my opinion and I'm sure millions would disagree with me, I think the old system was fine as it was. The gigantic overhaul was unnecessary and maybe it is better for new players, who knows, but it sure is a lot worse for a veteran player.

    I get gear, I have zero control over what drops. In the past the stats were set, I could look at the crafting panel and see what was good but craft something now and it gives random stats. It's random whether something is upgraded, war forged, has a gem socket. I loathe random. I used to have a list of upgrade options. I did try and see what upgrades I could get now but it made my head spin. Way too many possibilities and zero control.

    This comment might be a little off topic but in my opinion reforging is only a small part of a much larger problem. I guess it's game direction and it's moved in a way I don't like. I'm still subbed but I'm not engaged in the game as I used to be. They've removed my control, they've made it very confusing and that makes me want to switch it off rather than play. I just went a month without logging in and barely even noticed.

    So yeah I'm with you. Reforging was engaging to me as it gave me control and understanding.

    1. Your problem is pretty much the fact that you don't raid anymore. Prot hasn't changed all that much and there's nothing really consfusing about it.
      The core 'problem' is you - you don't bother as much since you don't raid and therefore feel you're not in control as much and feel like there's things you're missing. You act scared, freaked out even and sort of useless (what good is a tank that doesn't tank). Start raiding again, you're missing it and don't seem to get that this is why you're so... lost.

    2. @Taitrina

      You are not alone. I thought things were fine the way they were and while they could have made things simpler they did not need to go and change everything. You would be surprised if I told you it seems most agree with it. So you are not in the minority. Not many like that so many blanket changes were made for no reason other than to make change.

      Blizzard seems to have a very bad habit of trying to fix things that were not broken to begin with. When they removed hit, experience, and haste caps, they removed the "math" from reforging, so there was no longer any need to remove reforging.


      Even if the problem just just them, it is not a problem they suffer alone with. I hear many players saying the same things. Even a friend of mine that is a mythic raider in the top 20, he keeps saying the same thing.

      I agree that once raiding it would seem "less" of an issue, but it will not change the feeling of helplessness. Not at all. Then having to deal with the random nature of things. Gem slots, warforged, both, one higher level item with nothing vs a lower item with a slot or warforged, or one lower with both against a higher with nothing.

      I agree with the sense I have heard MANY say. I look at places like mr robot more now than I ever did with reforging, gems everywhere and enchants all over the place.

      Now downgrades are upgrades, minor lower pieces with good stats are better than higher pieces, gem slots and warforged can really throw things off. Even making pieces with "bad" stats better in some cases.

      If anything is is "harder" now, not easier. Blizzard really screwed the pooch. Big time. The did exactly the opposite of what they intended to do with removing things like reforging.

  11. Bitch away my friend, bitch away....

    I want more haste on my rogue. sorry, but I view more haste giving me more energy so I can wallop the shit out the mobs more. But the only way I can get it is thru +100 haste on my back, +50 haste on my rings and amulet. If I could change some of that multi-strike, crit and other things to more haste, I would be more happy :) But alas, I can't due to the wisdom of blizzard facts.

    Take care!


    1. I miss being able to just horde haste on all pieces with reforging.

      Someone should ask blizzard, where is that choice you promised we would have?