Friday, October 26, 2012

Valor Changes are Not Enough

It was announced that there have been some changes to how much valor we get when doing group content.  The random dungeons now give 80 (was 60) for the first run and 40 (was 30) for each run thereafter.  Scenarios saw a boost as well to 40 (was 30) for the first run and 20 (was 15) for each run thereafter. 

The challenge modes also got a boost but I will not even count them here.  For people that run challenge modes they can easily run normal modes to cap out being they have a premade group that can burn through the content and valor cap in a short time because of it.  I am getting at the average joe, with maybe a few people they run with or that run randoms or someone with a stable of alts.

The valor changes are not enough, not even close to enough.  They are still leaps and bounds too low.  For the hard core player valor is fine, see my challenge mode comment, for the player with a fair amount of time but only one character the valor is fine.  For anyone, even with less time, that only has one 90 and is still working on reputation, valor is fine, they will cap just from daily quests alone.  For everyone else, valor is all screwed up.

There are two reasons it is all screwed up for the masses that play.  One, capping takes a hell of a lot of a time investment.  Two, what the hell are you going to spend that valor on if you are not doing dailies for reputation.

There is another reason it is messed up, and that is my situation, which I know a few are in.  My situation first.

My main is almost done getting my last two factions to at least revered and while I will continue to exalted over time I will do some here and some there meaning I will not cap my main by doing quests only soon.

So what options do I have?  Continue to do dailies that offer me nothing but valor really or mix it up and add some other stuff in?  I will most likely mix it up but even at that, even if I do a few hubs each day, one scenario and one dungeon I won't be capping.  Lets ignore for the fact that there is already almost nothing left for me to buy, lets say there was, I need to grind forever on a character that has already maxed all its reputations making dailies less "useful". 

When I was getting gold, valor and charms along with reputation doing the daily grind makes sense.  I needed a lot from them.  When I no longer need reputation, and really can make more gold grinding mobs for a few minutes and trading in one spirit for three lotus gold is not an issue, I have enough lesser charms to get my three elder ones for the next 15 weeks, that leaves only the valor and I am sorry, but 5 valor is just not worth doing the dailies for.  Not even close.  Not when I have other 90s that will start needing my attention once I am done with my main.

Once I am done with my reputations on my main I just want to cap as fast as humanly possible and move along to doing something else.  That is when valor becomes a chore, and not a fun one at that, and I want it to be over as fast as possible and there is no fast way to get the valor grind done any more.

They need to change how many valor you get from the dailies when you reach exalted.  There is a saying I like that I will share, the reward must be worth the effort and when you get, and needed, everything from the dailies the reward is more than ample for the effort.  Once you get to the point you are only doing them for valor and valor only the reward is lackluster, to say the least.  The reward is not worth the effort, not even close.

Once exalted you should get 20 valor per quest, maybe 15 would be okay, even 10 would really be pushing it to the point of not being worth doing them for valor.

They needed to think that the time would come when people would move into valor grinding mode, and that is coming in less than a week for me, when doing dailies will be doing them for valor only.

They made all these changes to valor but they forgot one thing, the quests.  It is fine and dandy to change the group content but to not change the number one thing people are getting valor from, whether they like it or not, is an oversight of epic proportions.

A buff to the valor received when exalted with a faction from their dailies seems like it would be a reasonable change to make them worth continuing once you do not need anything else from them.  20 per sounds about right.

Now lets get back to the two things I mentioned earlier.

1) Capping takes a hell of a lot of time.

Some classes it is easier than others to do the daily grind.  Some classes it is easier to do the dungeon grind.  Either type you are it is going to take a fair deal of time to cap your valor.  The buff to dungeon valor and the complete disregard for quest valor is not going to really help anyone much.

The dungeon valor should have been buffed from 60 to 120 for the first run and from 30 to 60 for each run there after.  That would be more acceptable for the masses.  The type of player that can not invest the time some do.  There are some players in my guild that were upset we started raiding before they could open up all four the gear reputations with revered because now on nights we raid they can not fit in their dailies.

Time is limited for all types, myself included and I play often.  My alts do not have any reputations because I do not have the time to do it with them yet.  Many people, the majority if you will, are like I handle my alts, I have the time to do some stuff with them, I raid with them, and I do some dungeons here and there with them, but I can not grind out 3 hours a night of dailies.

Now, lets just say for arguments sake I do decide to grind on my alts that are 90.  A healer and a tank at the moment.  I can just do the dungeon thing.  It will take what feels like a year and a day to grind out valor cap that way, the numbers it offered, and now offer even after the change, are a joke and capping out valor through dungeons will not happen unless I have a hell of a lot of free time.

There is no way around it.  For the average player reaching valor cap is a pipe dream, it can not and will not ever happen.  Valor needs a boost so it does not become a full time job to cap out.  But that brings us to issue two.

2) What is that valor for?

If you are not doing dailies you are not getting reputation and you are not opening up the vendors to spend the valor at.  So basically that means, why even give a crap about capping if you have nothing to spend it on.  Good question.  I have the answer.

So I can gear up my alts.  Good enough answer for you?

They are alternate characters there to support my main character.  I have a tank, should it be needed.  I have a healer, should it be needed.  I have a jewelcrafter to cut my gems.  I have an engineer to make my weapon scope.  I have an enchanter to make my enchants.  I have a leatherworker to make my gear.  These are all characters there to support my main character.

There is absolutely no reason they should need to grind to revered to get gear and things they need for their professions.  My main did and that is who they are making those things for.  So if my main is revered/exalted and the items are for him shouldn't my revered/exalted status count?

There is no reason that my enchanter, a healer, should have to get to revered with the august celestials to get a pattern for my hunter.  None what so ever.  If my hunter is revered and the enchant is for him, I should have it.  It makes no difference if my priest is the one buying it.

Reputation should span accounts.  Not only so we have things for our alternate characters to spend their valor on, but so our alternate characters can do what they are supposed to do, support our mains.

So where I stand is the valor changes are not enough, they need a lot more added to it, and they need to make reputation changes with it as well.

All group content, dungeons, scenarios, challenge modes, should all be doubled in what they offer.  Not these tiny increases.  Daily quests should offer a lot more valor once you reach exalted with a faction.  And if one character is revered or better, all character should be eligible to buy the same items the revered character is.  This means gear and patterns.

Increasing valor from a dungeon to 80 from 60 is an insult to everyone that ever made a post about the rate at which valor is gained.

It was a nice attempt by blizzard to show they hear people but it missed the target.  I don't really mind the grind, never have and never will.  In fact I like it.  But that does not change the fact that this change is an insult.  I had yet to really complain about the rate of valor here and probably would not have, but seeing this change made me want to do my thing and just be grumpy about it.  Don't make chances and say they are to help things when they are absolutely not helping anyone and they mean nothing.

If you really want to change things blizzard, do the right thing, double the valor gained and let reputation privileges carry over to alts.  Now that would show you are listening.

You would have been better off leaving it alone.  This change is like giving a starving man a crumb, sure he will take it because it is better than nothing, but it is still an insult to him.  If you wanted to alleviate the valor grind issues, do it, don't make changes like this that just insult the people that wanted changes in the first place.  These valor changes are just not enough.


  1. PVP anon here.

    I don't raid and don't even cap valor every week, but it seems to me that the cornerstone issue is this:

    How many characters should they expect people to play on, and how much time should one spend per week capping each character (maybe there should be a difference between capping the main and capping the alts).

    The answer to the "how many characters" question has historically been: one. As in, you can cap and play on more than one character, but that automatically makes you semi-hardcore and, generally, is not easy.

    You are talking about this here and I see this in PVP all the time as well. Speaking of people playing for several hours a day in the evening (a fairly common scenario), it seems that if you play only one character, capping is very easy. You generally have enough time to do whatever it is that you want to do in a week, and perhaps have some time left. If you play one main and have a couple of alts, which you don't treat very seriously (eg, do some AH or farming with or maybe level from time to time because they are not 90 yet), that's OK as well. But the moment you decide to have two or more characters that you will cap and play on every week, you are in trouble.

    I don't see this changing unless they change their expectations about people having only one main. Now, the question is, do you want them to change their expectations? Should they expect you to play on, say, two characters a week, and adjust the caps / rewards accordingly? I am not sure I have a strong opinion here... There are huge pros and cons both ways.

    1. Well-said.

      Alts are basically a luxury, not a necessity, and changing them to necessities will only lead to misery.

      If they ever do feel that people shouldn't interact with other players to fill out their Profession needs (ie make WoW even more of a Massive Single Player Game) it would probably be better to just lift the limit of two on Primary Professions (they can always balance new raid content to whatever amount of Profession bonusses they feel should be 'mandatory' for the 2% ers) as at least that way the game would retain a shred of integrity as MMORPG.

    2. @ PvP anon

      Sorry for the late response.

      I agree with everything you said but look at it in a bigger picture sort of way.

      Blizzard does not design the game to be played by one person any more. They want people having alts, as many of them as possible. Hence the reason for heirloom gear and adding more every chance they get. Hence the reasons a monkey can level from 1 - 80 in less that 2 days played.

      They are designing the entire game around making it as easy as possible to have multiple character, they want people to have multiple characters. They should add support for that at max level being that is what they want.

      I think MoP was designed brilliantly. So an active player, like myself, that plays with only one main, it is perfect design.

      I do not play only one character however. Also, anyone like me, that achieve player, will not be the one character type of player because of who we are.

      MoP was designed for me and I love it. It is rare I get to say something in game looks like it was made for me and makes me feel like they listened. This is exactly what I wanted... at the beginning of wrath, one I still only had one character maxed.

  2. IIRC they said they are changing VP to double once you reach revered with a faction.

    1. I think the reputation gains are doubled; not the VP.

    2. Jaeger is right, rep only.

      If you are valor capped on one character for the week all other characters on the same server get 50% more valor from everything that gives valor. That is what you might be thinking about.

  3. Just one dungeon and one scenario per day will get you to 840 valor. Throw in another couple random dungeons and you're at the 1K cap, easy-peasy.

    1. Most people (myself included) don't have time to play every day. So the lower benefit for the 2nd run per day is really crappy for us. We have to do twice as many just because we can't play every day. It's no wonder I've only capped once since Mists. Yet, I capped every week during the later part of Cata: LFR + a few dungeons and you were capped.

      I really don't understand why they gated things so much AND made valor gear inferior to raid gear. If they wanted to slow down gearing, do one or the other but not both.

    2. I'd have to find the link (it was on MMOchamp) but Blizz Twittered that they went back to the daily-chore system for the Random Dungeon Bonus because '7/week instead of 1/day made LFD feel like a job to people'.

      The excessive gating is there because the themepark Raid model is in reality unsustainable, Devs can't keep up with putting new Dragons in front of players, especailly companies with glacial development cycles like Blizzard.

      So either they artifically extend the lifecycle of such content (gating) or they let their game mature/return to more sandboxy and RPG-style games (which neither the Blizz Devs nor the vocal minority of their subscriber base wants).

      Or, argueably more likely given how they e.g. react to people missing removed features, the Blizz Devs are simply too detached from reality to expect them to act like rational beings.

    3. @ MattewG

      I have zero desire to do any of the dungeons or scenarios. However, I agree, that is the best way to do it and will be the route I go.

      Doesn't help the fact I want to valor cap my main on tuesday, so the rest of the week I can get an extra 50% with my alts.

      Not to mention people like Jaeger who can't be on every day. There is a reason they changed it to 7 per week from 1 per day. Perhaps they forgot that reason and need to be reminded of it. They changed it for people like Jaeger, who can't play every day, or people like me, that want to log in on tuesday and cap ASAP.

      They need to go back to the 7 per week model. We got spoiled and we want it back. You can't give us candy and then take it away before we are finished eating it. That is exactly what they did with that change.

  4. I ran into the same problem this expac, I wanted my RDruid to be my PvE toon, and my Hunter to be my PvP toon, My hunter is my Achievement whore/completionest having 12.7K achieve points before MoP. So my Hunter is the one doing the dailies for the rep,achieves, mounts,pets,ect. While my RDruid hasnt done 3 dailies since MoP dropped. (you know how bad it sucks questing as Resto?) So while my Druid is the one that needs the rep, my Hunter is the one getting it all. Shared reputaion would be an amazing thing right now.

    This is the first xpac where i have to decide between 2 toons to play... and it sucks. I hate alts.

    1. Quest bear... I love it. ;)

      My hunter is my main, my druid is my alt. So far I have not been able to raid at all on my hunter because we are in need of a tank, so I am raiding on my druid.

      Sad part is, my hunter has all the rep and all the gear and my druid I sometimes feel I am holding back my team because I do not have the rep needed to buy anything with the valor I have. Capped, and nothing to spend it on. Sucks.

      This expansion is not alt friendly at all.

  5. Isn't there a 40% buff to the rate you earn valor on alts once you are valor capped on one for the week?

    1. 50%, but capping takes forever. By the time I cap my main more than half the week is gone already. Unless I want to waste hours and hours on end doing dungeons at the extremely horrible rate of 40 per dungeon.

  6. Happy Halloween! Haven't seen you in a few days Grumpy - hope everything is ok. Anyway, thanks for the macros from the other day - they were needed. :D

    As far as valor goes, I really don't go looking for it or JP. I seem to get it every time I turn around. I don't think I capped them even weekly, but they are there. But I did notice, I am getting justice points and I have no idea from where. I don't do instances, so I am thinking some of the dailies are given it instead of valor. Am I on just some very good drugs or is there a possible problem with the way things are working with MoP and valor? As always - Good hunting to ya!


    1. Had some really bad weather issues here in NY. I am back and all is well with me.

      Glad they worked for you.

      I think they come from bosses in dungeons, but if you are not doing dungeons I have no clue where they are coming from. That is a really good question.

      Yeah, you can cap out on quests only if you do a lot of dailies, that is for sure.

  7. hiya Grumpy! OMG, I did not think you are in that part of the US. You make all sorts of sense like you are a Mid-Westerner. :D I just saw how you are making out on your latest post - glad things are getting back to normal. I do hope you didn't suffer any loss in material or any one was hurt(both animal and human).

    -Roo the Hunter

    1. I did not lose anything material or long term, besides heat, I am freaking freezing. :(

      But I can not complain, I made out a lot better than many. So if being cold is my biggest problem I made out good.