Thursday, November 22, 2012

Welcome to wow

Welcome to wow.  It sounds nice enough just looking it it.  Someone saying, welcome to the game I play and enjoy, hope you have as much fun as I do.  The thing is when someone says that in game that is not what they mean, not any more at least.  Welcome to wow has taken a completely new meaning in game and I have been seeing it more and more.

So what does welcome to wow mean now?  It means, welcome to the game where everyone will do everything they can to screw you over and ruin your game play for their own fun.  And that is acceptable behavior here.

I've been hearing more and more stories of people acting badly and defending themselves by saying "welcome to wow" as if that is a way of saying that you are supposed to act that way in this game.  I've even seen the comment a few times and been victim of it once myself.  Welcome to wow, this is how we act here.

Warrior: Why did you roll need on the strength ring?
Warlock: Because I can, welcome to wow.

Things like that are the new standard.  People using welcome to wow as an excuse to behave badly.  As if they are saying that it is acceptable because this is wow, this is how you are supposed to act here.  In a LFR run the other day one of the healers was in shadow form DPSing and when someone mentioned it in raid and another person pointed out they probably just did it for the quick queue and wanted to start a kick.  The priest said, welcome to wow, just deal with it, and pulled so he could not be kicked.

The one time I was a victim to the new welcome to wow phenomenon that seems to be going around was in a random dungeon.  As least the guy added, have a nice day, after he did what he did, but that only made it worse because it shows he was planning to be a jerk the whole time ahead of time.  We zone in, he pulls as many mobs as he can and says, welcome to wow, have a nice day, and drops group which of course lead to a wipe.  That was one huge jerk move but because he said welcome to wow that means it was all acceptable, because that is how people are supposed to act in wow.

A guild mate of mine was killing a rare in the wastes when a paladin landed near by and proceeded to round up all the mobs in the area and ran right on top of him and the rare he was fighting and bubbled, causing all the mobs to go after my friend and killing him instantly and then he tagged the rare after they killed him.  He whispered the paladin with some choice words that while rude and unkind to say the least I think were well deserved by the major asshattery that the paladin just pulled and the paladin just replied with the three words that make it all okay to act like that, welcome to wow.

It is almost as if saying welcome to wow absolves you of all your sins.  Saying welcome to wow means that you are pointing out that this is how you are supposed to act in the game.  The dropping aggro on others is rampant this expansion, I think it is some sort of bug and doubt it is supposed to work like that but it does.  Everyone is using it to get other people killed and then defending their actions by saying, welcome to wow.

When did this happen and why did I not get the memo?  I was not aware that these types of actions were now the expected way to play the game.  You even see it on the forums when someone complains about something that they have all rights to complain about.  Like the warlock rolling on a strength piece.  The warrior goes on the forums to ask why a warlock is even allowed to roll on it, a valid question in my opinion, and the reply they get from the community is, welcome to wow, stop crying, that is how we do things here.

This is not acceptable.  This is not how a community should be.  If the warrior goes on the forums to complain a warlock rolled on a strength piece and won the community should back them up and all call the warlock out for being a jerk because they were a jerk and deserve to be called one and even blackballed by the community for acting like that and not end up being rude to the warrior that was the victim of some warlock acting like that.  Instead, our community just supports the warlock for rolling on something they should not have rolled on to begin with and tells the warrior that is how this game is played, welcome to wow.

It continues to get worse and worse as time goes on and blizzard continues to turn a blind eye to the community and the speed at which it is getting worse and worse.

When welcome to wow turned from "welcome to the game hope you enjoy it" to "welcome to the game where you are supposed to act like a jerk and even get rewarded for it" you know the community is on its final leg.

The community has always been hit or miss.  There are some bad ones out there and there are some good ones out there but more and more it is seeming as if the people that act badly get rewarded for it and this shows people that acting badly is how you should act.  The game wants us to act like a jerk.

I'll admit, I've even joined the dark side once or twice and I don't regret it.  One time I landed in front of a rare and was switching my pet to tank when someone swooped in and landed on the rare they saw I was going for.  Now normally, if they were already attacking it before I got there I would have helped, I have no issues helping others out even if they are of the opposite faction, but they stole it from me so screw them, I won't help them steal my kill.  I figured I would just hang out and if they failed I would take the kill that was rightfully mine.  No big deal, I was not going to make a stink over it, he beat me to the tag by being a jerk but it happens because this game is filled with jerks.

The mob did an AoE that made my pet run in, I dismissed it because like I said, I was not going to help him.  The person said in say, come on, help me.  I replied, no, you stole my kill why should I help you?  They said, don't be a jerk.  I relied, sorry, just acting like you acted stealing my kill.  He called me an asshole, so I decided to act like one.  I went and pulled as many mobs as I could and feigned death right on top of him only to watch him die a few seconds later.  I then called my pet out and tagged the rare and killed it.

Oddly enough, this person seemed to learn.  When they got back to their body and popped up, they helped me kill the rare and said, sorry.  Perhaps they realized they were the bad guy here, not me.  Perhaps they were the victim of the welcome to wow thing that is going around and they thought that is how they were supposed to act and our interactions showed them that is wrong.  Perhaps he just felt bad that he talked the talk but could not walk the walk and was eating a little crow right now.  Whatever it may be, at least he said he was sorry.

The game is going in the wrong direction when it comes to community and blizzard really needs to do something to stop this.  When the meaning of welcome to wow changed from being something people said to be be nice into something they say to justify being an asshole you know we were entering the last phase of civility.  The game is going to a very bad place community wise and I see no way to save it from a player standpoint.  As players we are outnumbered by the jerks, only blizzard can do something to save it.

Blizzard has worked really hard of recent in trying to make as vibrant a game as they possibly can to keep it alive and flourishing but they lost track of the community along the way and are letting the community destroy what they worked so hard to create by their inaction.  No matter how great they make the game, it is an MMO, and it will always be judged on the people that play it in the end.  A+ for mists blizzard, F for what you let your community fall into by your inaction.

Don't like it?  Welcome to wow.


  1. Yay, a post I can agree with ;)

    Seriously though, you are right about people getting worse. Blizzard has a tendency to blissfully ignore people warning about the negative side affects of proposed changes, and seems unwilling to foster good behaviour by making bad behaviour actually more rewarding.

    To give a PvE example: Bashiok's post during Cata that implied that 'everybody has an equal share in downing Bosses so they all have equal rights to a Drop' - 'Need coz I can' ppl rejoice.

    The prime PvP example I can give is the WSG GY change, which has enabled GY camping tremendously (despite being - on record - originally being aimed at STOPPING camping by the opposing team).

    During Wrath, the XP-Locked community was very stringent in not camping eachother and in regular BG's (argueably because the Queues were very iffy and the Battlegroup-based players were a small pool ie social control and playing with and against people you knew and interacted with).

    Cata brings Regionwide queues and changes the map, BOOM, people (try to) camp the beejeevus out of eachother (esp. in 20-24, which is worse because it affects people who have no choice or understanding of being there ie genuine Trialists) and Twinkinfo was bascially suddenly okay with it (which wasn't even the depths, now they allow ppl discussing exploting into regular with XP-Locked toons etc.)

    I could bore you with tales of recent levelling LFD's but let's just say that all the streamlining etc. hasn't improved the social experience at all (call me odd, but I always play with mature filter-off, I prefer to know what ppl call eachother etc.)

    1. Even with the filter on you can tell what people say to each other. If people occasionally say "bad words" it does not bother me at all. It bothers me when they use those "bad words" to rip into others, even if those others might deserve it so to speak. The community is horrible and keeps getting worse.

      Blizzard needs to understand that if there is something the community cant take advantage of they will. Graveyard camping is a perfect example. Why win the battle nice and easy when you have a huge upper hand when you can just as easily farm more honor in one battleground than you would get in an entire day of BG running.

      If blizzard keeps letting people act like this it is their way of saying, don't worry, it's okay, welcome to wow.

    2. The problem with WSG GY camping is that it is genuinely a solid tactic. If your team is strong enough, you can hold their whole team there while your flag carrier pegs it back and forth unhindered. Whether you want to camp the enemy OR win in record time, it is the best way to go.

      I agree that Blizzard needs to get in there and sort that kind of thing. When griefing and a winning tactic are one and the same, something is fundamentally wrong with the design, nevermind the community.

    3. If you create a tactical advantage to win, and that is graveyard camping and run it back and forth, that is a solid approach. When you do it just to farm honor and have no intention of winning, it is griefing.

      Being we all know the player base will use things like that for the wrong reason, it should not be possible either way.

      You can not give people options between right and wrong on the internet, they will always choose wrong if it benefits them. Blizzard has had an MMORPG long enough to know that and they should not allow it.

    4. How is that greifing? You are in a Battle ground. If your team is that bad that you cant leave the GY, that is your problem not theirs, You always have the ability to leave the "greifing" by leaving the BG.

      Some people play for HK's, Some premades are made strictly for HK farming (granted WG isn’t a good one)Just because the other team doesn’t want to go for the BG objective, and instead wish to farm you because your team lacks the skill/gear shouldn’t be consider greifing, you voluntarily put yourself in that BG, and you can take yourself out just as easy.

      Or just don’t rez and mess with them.

    5. If something can be abused, it will be abused. The 'trick' for you as designer is to either make it as hard as possible to abuse, or refrain from implementing it.

      My examples were btw mostly meant as illustration on how a change in features can change a community, even (formerly) tight-knit ones.

    6. @Anon

      It is griefing if you are doing it to farm honor. If you are doing it as a tactic to win, it is a solid strategy.

      By farming honor you are keeping the game going longer, keeping them in a situation where they get killed over and over waiting on the timer to run out or to drop out.

      When people do drop group you are basically bringing someone in to be slaughtered over and over without any chance, all because you want to farm honor. It is the very definition of griefing.

      Anyone that participates in honor farming graveyards should be banned, 3 days, even if they are the #1 RBG group in the game. It is griefing plain and simple and the only people that would say it is not are people that are jerks and want to grief.

      I've dropped a group a few times where they started to do that because I wanted no part of it because I am not a jerk that has fun ruining someone else's game play. Sure I could have stayed and collected free honor but I play to have fun and once you camp someone for a minute it stops being fun and starts feeling like you are an asshole and that just doesn't fly with me.

    7. So any type of HK farming is griefing, because you entered a battleground, where the point is to countisuisly kill the other person, and now it is griefing when we do it over and over until the game ends? but its fine to waste that same 15 min if you team gets beat fairly? Where does it stop? What if you and your team are so bad/unskilled/ungeared that you all are literally getting 2 shotted? Why isn’t that griefing? Yet the team that moves closer to the GY to do the same isn’t?

      Again, no one is forcing you to stay if you don’t like the way a certain BG is being played, hence why blizz does nothing about it, it isn’t griefing.

      Just because someone doesn’t like to play the same way, or have the same objective as you doesn’t equal griefing.

    8. You are trying to justify the unjustifiable and that will not get anywhere with me no matter how much you press it.

      You want to honor farm do it in battle in the open field by being the better team. Do it by winning as many battlegrounds as possible in the shortest time possible.

      Just because someone doesn't know what griefing is doesn't mean it is not griefing.

      Blizz does nothing about gold buying, do you think that is not wrong either? Blizz does nothing about botting, do you think that is not wrong too? Blizz does nothing about trolling, about slander, about rude people behaving badly, do you think those are not wrong too?

      Just because blizzard does not do anything about it does not mean it is okay to do it, that is the welcome to wow mentality. If you subscribe to that mentality you are part of the problem.


      "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals"

      Graveyard camping for any purpose other than to gain control for a quick and easy win in a BG fits griefing. Like I said, you can not justify the unjustifiable.

    9. Oh and BTW I am officially calling it: Warlocks are the new Huntards. I have not pugged with a single polite team player since the big patch. They aggro faster than a sickly whale with an arterial wound in shark-infested water. If you have all heirloomed lock and are going into instances with your voidwalker then delete your account pronto.

    10. @ Anon. lol

      Sorry, did not mean to laugh but that sounds funny.

  2. I agree that the community isn't nice. It's one of the reasons that I don't pug if I can help it and just stay with friends and guildmates. That doesn't mean I never see it e.g. LFR, rare kills, incomplete heroics etc. but I choose to try and minimise my interaction with the community at large.

    I was rare hunting with some friends and we find someone in the middle of killing a rare. So I swoop down and help them, my friends were like "you're too nice". I probably wouldn't have helped as I doubt he would have needed it if these other mobs hadn't respawned on top of him. I could have watched them kill him and then tag the rare and take the kill, I chose not too. They'd got there first, and it would have been bad luck that killed them, so it wouldn't have been fair to have taken their kill.

    In all honesty though I'm not sure what blizz can do to improve the community. They can't have someone watch everything so it requires the players to police it. You know as well as I do that that can be abused and already is with the report function. If they added anything else in then again it would be abused. Some of the measures they've already taken have a downside. LFR loot is such a pain now as it's spec limited especially for prot paladins as some ret gear is better for us.

    I don't think we can look to blizz to fix it, because honestly what could they do? It's indicative of the world at large, where everyone's out for themselves and doesn't care about anyone else. Take the shopping centre. How many people hold open doors for others? How many people use their eyes and see that someone's waiting for e.g. a wheelchair to come through, and don't just push past? How many people will wait in line and take their turn? Go on public transport. Who gives up their seat for people that need it more these days? When was the last time you heard someone ask "do you need help with that?"

    Maybe I'm too cynical but perhaps people like you and me, people who try to be nice and have common courtesy, perhaps we're a dying breed. In the anonymous world of the internet it's even worse than real life and real life isn't doing too great either. Everyone is out for themselves, I think perhaps maybe the warcraft community is just showing what we have to look forward to everywhere.

    1. "I don't think we can look to blizz to fix it, because honestly what could they do?"

      They have all the power in the world to fix this!

      Take a look at Guild Wars 2 if you want to see a game where the designers do care about the behavior of community and make the game rules work towards that.

    2. I attempt to limit my interactions with others as well but it has started to hurt my game play. I don't pug which means my alts do not get geared up should I want to raid with them. It also means my main does not get geared up because I am helping my guild by tanking all expansion so far. The community has basically taken away my ability to play my hunter and enjoy doing so. No community should have that type of power.

      I have much thicker skin and perform better in pug content than most out there and if I have this type of feeling toward the community at large what do you think think people that do not do well or that take the words people say to heart feel like? I would say they could even be pushed to the point of quitting.

      Once it comes to that, and I am sure it has for many, it becomes blizzard job to step in and start taking action against the people that are destroying their game. Tell them to stop acting like spoiled little children and have fun by playing not by ruining others peoples days.

      As for fixing it, see above comment to your post.

      Blizzard has to power to fix this nice and easily. They refuse to fix it and they let people do it because this is how they want their game. They say, too bad, suck it up, welcome to wow, just like the jerks do.

      As for doing those things you mentioned. I do them, and if I can do them and I am no one special, they can do them, they are no one special either and someone should tell them that with a ban for acting like they are. They can start acting like human being, they do not need to act like animals. They only do it because they are allowed to do it and have no moral center. Blame their parents if you have to because they were raised badly, but just because they were raised badly that is no reason to allow them to act like that in mixed company, like an MMO is.

    3. Ok I don't play Guild Wars 2 so I don't know what you're referring too. You say blizz has got the power well what measures would you like them to take? What measures could they take that the community couldn't turn around, abuse and make meaningless or the situation worse? What would you like blizz to do?

      I've seen suggestions where people have a reputation bar. If they vote to kick, if they get kicked, if they get reported, if they get a thumbs up or a thumbs down. If various things happen anyway it affects the bar. That would be abused no end because if people can grief then they will. What other suggestions have I seen? I don't know.

      Blizz has done a lot though, with the quest mob tagging which means everyone gets credit. With changing LFR loot (however much it annoys me it is better now), with putting some solid boundaries around some quest givers (that admiral on alliance starter quest) and those are just the ones I can think of the top of my head.

      I'm not saying that blizz does a good job with the community. However, GW2 only has a fraction of the playerbase of warcraft, and smaller numbers are easier to manage. So measures that work there (I don't know what they are) might not translate to the larger playerbase.

      Maybe blizz suffers from being over cautious. We report and don't see an instant result because it's checked first. They likely err on the side of caution and so perhaps don't slam the ban hammer when they should. Even if they do though picking up another copy isn't expensive (particularly when it's on black friday sale or likewise) and then those jerks are back. They can't stop that. It's not like they can ban a credit card or something as people can buy game cards.

      Quite frankly though I just don't think that it's blizz's job to force people to be nice. People should be, like you said Grumpy, if you can do it so can everyone else. I mean blizz should enforce the rules but a lot of jerk behaviour falls into a grey area. Like when a kids in school and no-one wants to be friends with them. The school can't make the other kids be nice. That doesn't help the friendless kid but no-one can do anything. Grey area. Not bad enough to be bad, but still not good.

    4. There is a thin line however. Like that kid in school no one wants to be friends with. You can not force anyone to be friends with him, but you can force people not to call him names and beat him up on lunch break.

      Blizzard does not need to make people be nice to each other, but it should punish those that are not nice. If you catch my drift.

      Someone gets reported for pulling bosses in LFR by a few people, ban them from using the LFR for a week. Happens a second time, 2 weeks, a third time, a month. Something like that.

      When they start taking action against people who behave badly, those that beat up the kid no one likes at lunch time, then they will learn that actions like that can not and will not be tolerated. Sooner or later the word will get out.

      When the word gets out those people that are jerks will still be jerks, there is no way to change that but those people that are just acting like that not because they are jerks but because "everyone else does it so I will too" will stop doing it.

      Some moderation, even if slightly heavy handed, can go a long way.

      Blizzard will not do that however because they fear losing paying customers. One poster on MMO champion last year went on a effort to get banned and to see how far he could push it before he did. He bought gold, he used bots, he cursed in trade, not once but dozens of times.

      Nothing happened to him. Not a damn thing. He spoke to a GM and admitted to harassing people, pulling bosses, causing wipes on purpose, buying gold and using bots. Nothing happened to him.

      After weeks of trying the first ban came down and that ban was for 3 hours and for all he did it was for being reported for language after he had spent the last few weeks cursing like a truck driver in trade.

      After a series of 3 hour bans and more gold buying and more bot using he was finally banned for a day. One day.

      He never finished his update, probably got bored of trying. They never banned him.

      See, that is the problem. Blizzard needs to stop worrying so much about subscriptions and start worrying about their community. If they gave a shit about their community 1% as much as they do about money the game would be a better place for everyone.

    5. I'd love to read that mmo champion thread if you can find it. I did a quick google and it didn't come up.

    6. Hmm ok I didn't know about that test of the system by that MMOchamp guy. They should implement their own policies better. What that guy did was clearly breaking the rules so he should have been dealt with.

      I'm not talking about that sort of stuff though. I'm talking about general jerk behaviour. Like you said in the article about people pulling bosses to grief/avoid a kick, people dumping aggro on others, stealing mob tags etc. These things would either be hard to prove or aren't technically against the rules.

      Either way it's like my school analogy. If the teachers don't see the kid get hit/called names etc. then it's the bullies word against the kids and nothing gets done. I'm sure blizz does keep records, and can therefore see a lot more than teachers at a school, but those records must be unbelievably huge given how big the playerbase is. Unless something is serious/obviously badly breaking the rules they probably don't bother. So they err on the side of caution. That's not good obviously but it's the way it is, no-one cares until it's serious and by then it's too late.

      They should get their act together more I agree. I don't know if their reports system is centralised but if not it should be. Each player should have something like a file and so when someone deals with a report on them, they can see if they've been reported before for this, how often and by whom etc. That might help with your mmochamp guy who botted, bought gold etc. but your general jerk? They just aren't breaking the rules, it's likely covered under spirit of competition and supposed to be player policed. If someone's a jerk then don't group with them etc. That worked in the days when the playerbase was smaller, and confined to smaller groups within, not so much today. I like x-realm stuff, so not advocating it disappearing, and I don't have rose tinted glasses (I didn't even play back then) but I do think that it was likely easier to manage jerks.

      At the end of the day I'm not sure that blizz could do much. They can and should crack down on botters, gold buyers etc. but the general jerk? Well we have to deal with people like that all our lives.

    7. @Patatoe

      It was shortly after the annual pass, he was trying to do it to get out of the annual pass. So that would give you a frame of time reference. It was quite some time ago but I am sure it is there somewhere. Perhaps when I am bored at work next week I will see if I can find it.


      I know, I was just using that to stress the point. If they will not ban people that do things like that what chance do we have, as a community, of seeing any sort of bans to people that make the game unplayable.

      They know that and that is why they act like that. That was the point I was trying to make. If they will not ban an admitted gold buyer people know they can act any way they like and never get in trouble for it.

  3. First off and side-note: the adds problem in Pandaland. This whole continent is TOO packed with creatures? I regularly end up with three adds in the field in some places and up to FIVE in the really dense areas! No one should end up with five adds during a quest in the open!! I was the guy who suggested a dismount debuff around questgivers and mailboxes but I have come up with a better idea: the best WOW idea ever if i may be so bold: people on your ignore list also disappear visually from the game - they no longer exist! That jerk on a mammoth blocking the entire thanksgiving area... POOF! and even better: he doesnt even know you can't see him! He doesn't even know he isn't bugging anyone!

    1. Yes, dismount around quest givers is an awesome idea. Being it is so good I can assure you that we will never see it.

      Oh, I like that. Now if only putting them on your ignore list will make it so they can not pick herbs you want to pick, kill mobs you want to kill, etc I would love it.

      I would have more than half the population of wow on my ignore list. But I kid, as much as I complain, my ignore list is empty now. I removed the 4 people that were on it as they were all banned from the game forever, I made sure of that.

      If I put someone on my ignore list, their life is short for this game.

      They need to make people stop acting like they are all special because they are not. They are just like everyone else and treating others like dirt should not be tolerated in game. Blizzard needs to do something about that.

      As for the adds, I agree, on many classes it can become a problem. On my hunter, I look at it as free loot. No problem. On other characters I make every single pull while questing as if I am a tank in a dungeon, with careful consideration and pulling it back to a safe place, because I have to. Perhaps they are attempting to teach everyone to be tanks?

    2. Noooo! The continent is fine. I wouldn't be able to do anything if I couldn't pull half the area when I quest."No one should end up with five adds during a quest in the open"? Um.. yeah, I need like 15 at least for the quest to not take forever. I pull even non quest mobs because it ends up being faster. It makes me cry when I can't pull more than 3-4. You know those Shado'pan dailies where with the bugs, where you have to kill 4 elites 15 non-elites and so on... if I wouldn't be able to do that in one pull only I'd go insane.

    3. I think you misunderstood. I would bet that the number of creatures by area is greater than any other area/expansion and the patrols/movement are more dangerous. This is good for some and bad for others: namely classes that handle adds worse. My DK has no trouble with the adds - someof my others have to blow every cooldown at that point. Just feel a bit claustrophobic on the new continent. That may be a positive for others like you and I am not calling it wrong or bad or even needing to be changed... i just dont like it.

    4. @ James

      What I think he meant was those accidental pulls where you suddenly have 20 mobs on you. On my bear I love it, on my hunter I love it, on my shadow priest, I start counting the gold the repair costs will be. lol

    5. One specifically: Valley of the Four Winds quest at the farm with the critter on the roof throwing beer. I sit on a nearby hill just to watch people get decimated in there and try so see each class' survival strategies. Those spriggan things can drop ANYONE in seconds if they are not careful! There are skeletons everywhere!

    6. @Anon

      That is kind of funny to watch. Anyone that goes in that one vermin hole you need to rescue the girl from solo is dead unless they are a tank or a hunter. Or how about the goatsteak daily. I love watching people pull full packs and go for flight lessons.

      Some challenge a little here and there is not a bad thing in my opinion. The game needs more of it if you ask me.

  4. PVP anon here:

    You say that "welcome to wow" now means "welcome to the game where everyone will do everything they can to screw you over" and I don't deny this. But there is another angle here (parts of it hinted by previous commenters): the game has many stupid problems which make players feel bad, and for whatever reason Blizzard are constantly dropping the ball and aren't fixing them.

    My prime example is PVP, but I simply *know* that one can tell about the same about PVE and every other aspect of the game, really.

    The list of problems in PVP is endless. I won't bore you with the details as we all know this (operating words for the inquiring minds are 'balance' and 'ratings' and 'PVE gear' and 'racials' and 'nerfing X to fix Y' and ...I am going to stop at this). What's important is that this has been going on for years. What's even more important is that this does not seem to change to the better. Blizzard have been dropping the ball in the previous years, they continue to be dropping the ball now, and they will in all likelihood continue to be dropping the ball in the future. Seriously, "don't be so quick to judge, things are improving, they are already doing A, B, C, this is a good start, give them time" just stops working after years and years of hoping and waiting. Especially when A, B, C are half-measures at best, and especially when D, E, F, that they are also doing are introducing new, worse problems.

    The game is big, they have it tough, I get that, but as a result we have what we have - a game full of idiotic situations, arrangements and incentives, which can be fixed, but aren't being fixed fast enough before new idiocies arrive.

    We all meet these idiocies in our play time. We try to get by, but after some time we kind of get angry at them and at the game and some of that pours off towards other people. "You just globaled me, gg, but you wouldn't have been able to do that unless your class was OP, and I think you are playing that OP class because you can't play other non-OP classes, and did I tell you that you suck" - where does this come from? Right, from Blizzard making it possible to "global" someone, that is, to hit for 70-80% of their health in a single GCD. I don't say the players are right for cussing, but isn't it obvious that not fixing the game provokes this kind of behavior?

    1. In the PvP area more than most I would say that is true but it does carry over to everything else. Absolutely.

      They created the problem with the community and that is why I think they should help fix it.

      In my opinion fixing the community would be a million times easier than fixing PvP or even the PvE problems. It would be as simple as making rules and then enforcing them.

      Do not allow people to verbally abuse others, remove them from the game for a few days. If they want to cuss up a storm because they got globaled do it at their screen, not in game. That is how I do it. I might call someone an F'N jerk at my screen but I do not whisper it to them, because I was not raised to be a jerk.

      If I did I should be banned for acting like that. If they enforce some set of rules things will get better. There is no quick fix for PvP and the other problems but there is a quick fix for people poisoning the community, they just refuse to do it our of fear they might lose money.

    2. I agree.

      I know it is something of a hotbutton issue but I firmly believe that you as designer can design your game in such a way that certain behaviour is encouraged and that it will attract certain types of people.

      It's an old example but the main reasons Shadows LotRO had such a nice community was that not only it was aimed primarily at Explorers and Socials (to use the Bartle types), but the XP rates were so 'glacial' and the tuning quite high for a PvE game that impatient people simply didn't last long enough to become troublesome).

    3. That is a good case for making leveling extremely long. It does keep down the number of bored jerks at max level and thus the entire game is better because of it.

  5. The ultimate sad part is that this behavior crosses over to all the other Blizzard games as well.

    Diablo 3 anyone? The same disgusting and braindead comunnity.

    Titan soon? You bet. Blizzard will do crossover promotions all over the place, and the same people you try to avoid at all costs in WOW will be present in Titan to.

    Welcome to WOW.

    1. Can't say I noticed it in Diablo because I do not interact with anyone outside of my own crew of 3 other people and myself. I have never even once had occasion to talk to another person in game. I keep to myself to avoid that crap.

      I would not even bother with titan unless they show they can learn how to proactively moderate a community before it comes out. I am not going to get involved in another community that will be crap before it even starts.

  6. Oooh rare stories! I have one. Was killing this rare. In my usual prot spec. And there's this alliance mage who, after a while, I realize is actually trying to kill me. I get pissed off, I run around half the map to get him killed, I kill him eventually, with the rare after me obviously. Now I continue to hit the rare. For me in prot that take a looong time. When mob is like 2% said mage witha friend shadow priest swoop down on me, freeze me and so on. I bubble, kill my rare and after it expires they kill me. You know, I still think it's a victory even though I died. I'd usually bubble hearth if odds are against me, but I didn't want to leave my rare.
    And this kind of thing, I don't mind much. Even though it's cheap, because it's alliance and it's a PVP realm. What bothers me is seeing hordies act like complete jerks. You know that quest in Dread Wastes where you have to kill some mobs and get shackles. This worrior comes in, sees I'm fighting the thing and MCs him just so I don't kill him and get my item. WHY. What is the point.
    Also unfair PVP bothers me. Like these max level guys where camping the arena in Zul'Drak and killing lvl seventy something alliance. For hours. I kid you not. They camped the place for at least 3 hours. WHY. What is the fun in getting 4 maxed level players kill a level 70? This was my offtank levelling an alt and while we did whisper them to stop they didn't. I challenged them to 1v1 duel. None accepted. What in god's name is the point?

    1. I hate that MCing the mob I am fighting thing, every day I do Klaxxi quests that happens. People do it on purpose to be jerks.

      This is the perfect case of blizzard can fix this type of behavior instead of enforcing it. Make it so they can not MC a tagged mob. Nope, let anyone take anything they want and then say welcome to wow.

      See, thank you, that is the perfect example of blizzard supporting the welcome to wow mentality 100%.

      Hate to break it to you, but jerk mentality lends itself to PvP. I would say at a clip of 10 to 1, maybe even more, the jerks are PvPers.

    2. PVP anon here:

      My opinion normally is that everything should be allowed on PVP realms as pros outweigh the cons, but I think we have an opportunity for a win-win here:

      With the dynamic realm migration / consolidation offered by CRZs, there is no longer a need for a player to choose whether he wants to play on a PVE or PVP realm, accepting all consequences at the character creation screen forever. You set the PVP flag, you get transferred dynamically to PVP realms, you fight other people with that flag set, you compete with them for nodes, you camp them, you kill their low-level alts trying to start a fight, etc. You clear the PVP flag, you get transferred - again, dynamically - to PVE realms, where noone kills anyone.

      What do you think? That might solve a lot of problems, no?

    3. I love that idea, when I want to PvP I go to a PvP realm instantly, when I don't, I can ever unintentionally be flagged for PvP. Very good idea.

      Reminds me of one time doing my TB dailies tabbing through a few mobs and giving this troll a face full of arrows, which of course flagged me. At that point it was kill of be killed so I killed him, alls fair in love and war right.

      He had an alliance character and popped on to it and messaged me saying it was unfair I attacked him because I was not flagged, if I were flagged he would have been prepared. I said I was sorry, my AoE caught him and once I was flag I had to defend myself. He understood and did not make a big deal about it but it does bring up a problem with PvP on PvE servers. AoE, even if not intended, flags people. That is wrong and needs to be fixed.

      That is my only real problem with PvP on a PvE server and you idea would solve that.

      One problem, SW and org are not phased, so how would you do a for the horde of for the alliance if you could no longer be flagged PvP on a PvE server?

  7. The GW2 comment is a reference to a Reddit-thread where players started complaining about unjust 3-day bans for inapproperiate names. This happened when name reporting had just been introduced. An person from Arenanet offered to check if the ban was unjust. Basically, in many of the cases the player in question had not been banned for their name, but for being a jerk in zone chat. Imagine, a 3 DAY BAN for verbally abusing your fellow players. I would love for the WOW "community" to experience this, because at the moment, it makes me sad.

    Link for the curious:

    1. I know that Thread :)

      Sad thing is, back then it looked like the GW crew wanted to avoid having the same issues as WoW, now it seems they are careening the same way.

      'Link Achievement'/'GearScore' have met their match in the (wannabe) PvE Progression Fiends demanding only down-levelled capped toons in 'their' PuG's, and, worse, ArenaNet is now coddling up to the same problem players by introducing the Gear treadmill - which not only goes against everything they said before and makes no sense in a PvP franchise (the new, stronger Tier wil be avialable first by Group PvE) but will also sour the community even further (nature of the beast).

      As a great philosopher would say:
      what a revoltin' development this is!

    2. I love it. A 3 day ban for abusing people in chat. Blizzard, adopt this NOW!

      It would teach people to think before they type. Typing insults is worse than saying them. People can let words slip out when talking that they did not intend to but when you type it takes a conscious effort to write it out, which means the person no only a jerk but an asshole because they are being a jerk on purpose.

  8. I honestly haven't been griefed too much but I think it's because I play on a medium-small server and I avoid 5 mans and PvP like the plague...

    I'm also one of those people who tries to help. Yesterday, my _npcscan alerted me but I had already killed that rare once before. A troll mage was killing it and they almost had the rare down but their health was getting really low. I swooped down, finished it off and flew away. Hopefully, they said a silent thanks but I don't really care. I don't like dying so I try not to let others die.

    However, as we've all seen, there are many things that are imbalanced or broken in the game and we've suggested dozens of ways to fix them. It would make it harder for jerks to be jerks but I don't think it would get rid of them unless there is a sense of community. Jerks should be known around the community and they shouldn't get invited to the party. Random groups and CRZ are problems that we've already discussed and Blizz needs to fix those.

    Regarding CRZ:
    If CRZ is the only way to keep the game alive (which it can't be the only way; simple option is to just share hardware for low pop zones (hello, virtual machines) instead of dumping all the players together in those zones), then just merge the damn servers and quit doing this random swapping. People will bitch but at least they'll be within a defined community and they can learn who the jerks are and who the good players are.

    Regarding 5mans:
    Fix the Need rules so that I can't Need on something I can't use or have no right to use. Seems like it lets you Need on anything you can equip, which is just stupid.

    Regarding PvP:
    Balance PvP and PvE totally separately and quit over-nerfing/buffing in one to apply a small nerf/buff in the other.

    I still don't think that is enough though.

    As Grumpy said, they need rules and they need to be enforced.

    Taking the forums as an example (they're 100x worse than in game but anyway), blizz added those community moderators recently to help with moderation. I think that GMs should be in the game as players. They don't show up as GMs, they're just players but when they report someone, it doesn't have to be verified because they saw it and it has a swift action: instant 3hr ban or something. They could then slowly expand it to player moderators.

    Ideally in an MMO, the community should moderate itself so Blizz should take steps to try and allow that. Reduce the random anonymizing content and elevate the privileges of certain players (starting with Blizz employees and then expand).

    I nominate Grumpy for moderator status. :D

    1. As has been proposed by (a.o.) former EU 'pro poster' Yasueh back in the day, the griefing issue of depleting low-level areas of the Questgivers etc. could be handled well by using Phasing constructively for a change:

      phase characters up to +/- the max level of a Zone into one Phase, those above it in another.

      That way only those that specifically set out to grief lower levels would be hurt, and frankly they can rot for all I care.

    2. CRZs just made things 100 times worse because those jerks can now be jerks to more people and being those people are not from their server it actually gives them more incentive to screw with them.

      I don't know you, I don't care about you, you are not on my server so you can't get revenge or make a bad name for me, let me just ruin your day for you, welcome to wow. Thank you cross realm zone for giving me more people I can screw with daily.

  9. One problem I see is that, even if someone is punished, no one knows about it. Shame is a powerful motivator. What I would like is a public "shame" board, posted in the major cities. Blizzard would post the characters name, violation, and punishment for any and all to see. That way, the silent majority of decent players (those who just play, and don't grief) would see that action is being taken and who to NOT associate with.

    1. Indeed, the lack of visibility of punishment doesn't help, either. It makes people question why bother with reporting etc. when seemingly nothing gets done.

      It could even be just 'verdicts' without names, which would also have the advantage that it could help keep Blizz 'honest' in those 'verdicts'.

    2. Not only is shame a powerful motivator, but fear of being shamed will keep them in line even before they do it.

      However, for a select few, very few, that would be a way for them to gloat about their accomplishments.

      Ralph: "ha ha ha, I griefed the lowbies so bad at goldshire they had to ban me for 6 hours."

      Bob: "nice work ralph, bet I can get a 9 hour ban. 1000 gold, first one to a 9 hour ban wins."

      So things like that would happen, I assure you. So they would need to go a little further than name and shame, they would need to add a three strikes and you're out clause. Do the same offense 3 times, you are banned. Forever.

  10. If there are no meaningful choices in social interactions, you don't really have a community, just a police state. And before you go wishing for a police state, be aware that they never result exactly the way YOU want.

    And let me state the obvious. The community is US, not them. If your response to a declining community is to just avoid social interactions, you are a big part of the problem.

    If all the good people just go silent, then of course it seems like everybody is a jerk. If everyone who complains about community spent 15 minutes every now and then attempting some kind of meaningful and positive social interaction with a stranger, that would have more impact than yet another forum rant about griefers.

    And I'm as carebear as they come, but if a BG team manages to control a graveyard and you can't even res and run, game over. Props to them. Leave the BG and try again. Whining for a Blizz fix is just silly. It's PvP. You lost. I've run hundreds of random BGs. I suck at PvP. it's happened to me ONCE.

    1. I understand where you are heading with your train of thought but it is like spitting into the wind, get ready for it to hit you in the face.

      I've tried being "the good guy" and it just gets you more crap. The community, yes US, does not want a fun and helpful online experience, they want to make peoples lives horrible. The problem is US, as you said.

      The reason the problem is us is because there are not penalties for behaving badly. I am not asking for a police state but I am asking for penalties to be given out.

      I would be willing to bet my life on the fact that if people would get in trouble for acting like that the majority would not act like that.

      If there was no penalty for walking into a bank with a gun and taking all the money you wanted there would be 10,000 times more bank robberies.

      The majority of people will respond to rules if the rules are enforced and there are penalties for breaking said rules. If there are no penalties then it is not a rule, it is a suggestion. And given the option of not robbing the bank because you asked me not to or having a few millions dollars guess which one the majority of the world would choose?

      So yes, I get where you are going. And no, I am not part of the problem by not speaking up because if I did it would make it worse. And no I am not asking for a police state. All I am asking is for a simple set of rules and penalties for not following them. Like don't rob the bank or you are going to jail.

      GY camping is bad form. Camp to win, not camp to farm. There are no ifs ands or buts about that. GY camping just to farm honor and drag on the game is the definition of griefing.

  11. I wonder if this is just an problem on European servers. I've seen the rare turd...but not as the norm. But maybe that's just my particular server and not the NA servers as a whole.