Saturday, April 14, 2012

I Miss a Good Reputation Grind

What exactly is a good reputation grind?  I guess that would depend on the person you ask.  Some people do not like grinds at all.

I had a conversation about reputations a while back with a few guild mates and it basically came down to me being the lone person that liked the BC grinds where you ran the dungeons for reputation and get the tabard at exalted as a reward.  They all seemed to like the newer approach where you get to friendly, buy a tabard, and then grind with it on to get reputation.

I tried to point out, what I thought of as obvious, that in the end it is the same thing.  The difference is the dungeons gave specific reputation instead of the tabard you where wearing.  Like in BC if you where going for lower city you would do the dungeons that gave lower city reputation until exalted instead of just putting on a tabard and getting exalted with lower city from every dungeon.

In the end, while it would work out to be the same thing, it came down to what is easier.  They liked the tabard to get reputation idea because it was easier.  They could get the reputation they sought from any dungeon instead of having to do a specific one for the reputation they wanted.

Okay, I can accept that I guess because in a way it is easier.  I just thought of it from the standpoint of factions should give reputation for dungeons that they have a personal interest in.  It made more sense to me.

If in the end it is indeed the same thing then why do I like the BC version more than the modern one?

I also like that there where some reps that you would grind mobs or items to turn in and they where not connected to dungeons at all.  For me there is something about going around killing hundreds and thousands of orges to get reputation that seemed logical, seemed fun even whereas my friends said they hated that.  They wish there were a tabard option for them as well.

While I might be open minded enough to accept the tabard for every dungeon instead of dungeon specific reputation as it is basically the same, just an easier version of it I do not like the removal of kill grinds and gather grinds.

To me killing all those orges was a good grind.  To me gathering things for the consortium was a good grind.  I like grinds like that.

I am not a fan of the daily quest grind like for TB.  While I like to do dailies and am happy to get reputation from them it just seems sort of like it defeats the purpose of a grind.  I would grind TB to get the ground mount, the flying mount and the pet anyway, so giving me reputation for something I was doing anyway seems like it is not so much of a grind, it is something that is being given to me as a gift for doing something I was going to do anyway.  Where is the grind in getting something for free basically?

I guess that is what makes me feel different about things.  I like to grind to do something.  I do not like to be given something for free for doing something I was going to be doing anyway.

Blizzard often talks about wanting to get people out in the world more but I think they missed the point of grinds being good for that aspect of the game.  Grinds, if designed well, get people out in the world.

I spent a lot of time grinding orges for reputation, I was out in the world to do it.  Even if only a small selection of world it was still out in the world.

Having people need to do things, and not just daily quests, to get reputation gets them out in the world.  Isn't that what they want?

Lets take a look at some of the cataclysm reputations that could have been better, in my opinion, if they made them more of an old school grind instead of the easy version they have become.

Baradin's Wardens / Hellscream's Reach
- Have the outside dailies give 50 reputation each.
- Have the inside dailies give 100 reputation each.
- Make the roaming alliance/horde guards give 25 each for the one leader and 10 each for the two supporting guys.
- Have every TB PvP kills give 1 reputation each.
- Have the allaince/horde leftovers give 5 reputation each.

Now you have a grind that is actually a grind and gets people out in the world more.  A lot better then just popping in and doing some dailies for two and a half weeks and getting to exalted, in my opinion at least.

Wildhammer Clan / Dragonmaw Clan
- Have the dailies give 50 reputation each.
- Have the daily elite quest give 100 reputation.
- Make collecting clan insignia's a repeatable quest instead where you turn in 20 for 100 reputation but they are only a 33% drop rate.
- Killing enemy named mobs would give 10 reputation.
- Killing enemy mobs would give 1 reputation.
- Have GB trash give 1 reputation each and bosses give 25.

Now you have a grind that will get you out in the world more and feels more like you are earning it and it will not take forever, which is what scares some people.

- Add a few more dailies and lower the reputation of the two already there to 50 each.
- Add a repeatable daily quest to collect 10 pristine camel hides that are a 25% drop rate from camels for 100 reputation.
- Make killing certain enemies like the spirits or elementals in the city type areas give 1 reputation per kill.
- Make killing non phased non ramkahen cat people give 2 reputation.
- Being it is a perfect gathering area make bonus quests for gatherers, as we have seen before, where they need to collect 10 of something while herbing, mining or skinning.
- Have VP and LCoTV trash give 1 reputation each and bosses give 25.

Now that seems a little more like you are earning the reputation to me instead of just throwing on a tabard and getting it for free while doing dungeons you are going to be doing anyway.

I could go into the rest of the reputations but it really is not needed.  I am sure I got my point across.  Reputation that require a little bit of a grind will get people out in the world more.  It will makes people actually have to earn them as well. 

The way the system is now there is no reason anyone should ever not have the main reputations not at exalted unless it is an alt character and even at that, it is entirely possible that alts can get exalted without even trying thanks to the do nothing but equip it design of tabards now.

As it is now, if you have the five dungeon reputations exalted all it means is that you remembered to put on your tabard, with a change, it would be mean that you actually earned those reputations from doing something just a little more involved then putting on a tabard.  You would have actually earned the reputation.

I really do miss a good reputation grind.


  1. Sorry grumpy elf, but I disagree wholeheartedly.

    "I tried to point out, what I thought of as obvious, that in the end it is the same thing."

    No it's not, it's entirely different. In a word, the tabard version is less *boring*. See below...

    "The difference is the dungeons gave specific reputation instead of the tabard you where wearing. Like in BC if you where going for lower city you would do the dungeons that gave lower city reputation until exalted instead of just putting on a tabard and getting exalted with lower city from every dungeon."

    Exactly, like, I had to grind Shattered Halls which I hated and found boring, instead of doing any combination of other instances which I found much much much more interesting. So yeah, using a tabard is exactly like having to grind a specific instance. Except it's totally not, because the tabard gives you the freedom to do the instances you find interesting, not boring. Not to mention if I already got the loot I need from Shattered Halls I can do another instance and get both the rep I need and the gear I need.

    "Okay, I can accept that I guess because in a way it is easier. "

    No it's not, you're still forced to do the same number of instance runs (assuming on average they all give about the same rep for a clear, which I think is a fair assumption). So there's no "easier" with the tabard version. Just *less boring*.

    "Being it is a perfect gathering area make bonus quests for gatherers, as we have seen before, where they need to collect 10 of something while herbing, mining or skinning."

    It was a god-damned shitty and annoying mechanic and a slap in the face to every non-gatherer. My main when that mechanic was used in BC was a tailor-enchanter. Blizz totally screwed me over with that. My current main is again an Inscriber-Alchemist. I very much hope such a mechanic never ever again is used.

    As for killing ogres for Kurenai rep, again it was a shitty mechanic. Maybe you were on a low-pop realm or are looking through rose-colored glasses, but I remember being in those caves for hours, fighting 4-5 other people at a time for a single ogre spawn who died within seconds of spawning. No, not fun.

    Tabards rock.

    1. Lower pop server, yes.

      I guess I didn't think of it from the standpoint of disliking a dungeon.

      I still liked the feeling as if I were earning it. Not getting it for doing something I was doing anyway.

      That comes from the "new" way of grinding valor. I am going to do it anyway for valor so the reputation is a freebie that I did not earn.

      And, as the old fall back that everyone likes to say goes, if you don't like to grind the rep, then don't grind the rep. No one is forcing you to do it.

      I like grinding rep, so I would do it.

      As a side note, as the person below said, as long as the reputation is not a required rep, then the if you don't like it don't grind it applies.

  2. I get the sentiment.

    I hated Crypts, and SLabs was so hit-or-miss with pugs that it wasn't worth it, so I spent a lot of time grinding Sethekk Halls for Lower City rep. Similarly, my guild and I had daily runs of heroic Steamvault that we did each and every night as our druid tank crawled his way to Exalted with Cenarion Expedition. It was a comfortable, albeit mind-numbing routine.

    At the same time, I don't think I ever want to do it again.

    I had fun grinding Sporeggar rep because it wasn't actually required of me; it was something I arbitrarily chose to do. Had it been required to gear up, like with the other dungeons, I would have hated it. So by all means Blizzard should have reps like that in Mists as long as they are not "required."

    Any faction that gives you actually useful gear though, needs a tabard. We didn't have LFD or LFR back then, and that genie isn't going back in the bottle.

    1. I agree with reputations that are required not being like that but we need more reps like sporeggar just to do if we want to do it in my opinion. (if you where a hunter, you kind of had to do them for the treats)

      It does not hurt the game to add a few grind reputations that give people something to do that are completely optional.

      Make the ones that some feel are required the new simple way of put on a tabard and make some others that people actually have to do something to get.

  3. I couldn't agree more, I LOVE a good grind! I have earned loremaster on both sides of the fence, The Diplomat, Ambassador, The Exalted, The Insane. The Netherwing grind is still my absolute favorite thing in-game, I do it on every character I level. I still use Voranaku as my main mount. Some of the other mounts look better, some are more awesome like my Vial of the sands, but I always go back to the violet netherdrake because it isn't just some nameless mount, it's Voranaku. The Voranaku that pledged himself to my service for saving his people from slavery. There's a story behind the mount, a story my character is personally responsible for bringing to fruition.

    Same goes for tabards. There was one point in time that I collected them like most people collect pets, my bank was full of them. Each one was a symbol of the effort it took to help out that faction. Each one was a group that you had worked for, you were a hero to these people. The best was Ogri'la and Shattered sun, who would even make different comments as you gained reputation. Starting in wrath, tabards meant nothing. It was just a graphic and a piece of cloth as you filed a bar. It was something you threw away when you finished, not something you worked at to earn the right to wear. Reputation also meant nothing because you could run any dungeon at all so there was a further disconnect between you and that faction. In BC, you ran the serpentshrine dungeons and that gave you rep with the Cenarion Expedition because you were helping them directly. There was a direct correlation between what you did, where you did it and who appreciated your help for doing it. I miss the days of rep meaning more than just vendor rewards, I really hope MoP factions give you everything you "need" to play at friendly or honored and getting exalted really takes some work. I hope the exalted rewards are nothing more than a tabard and some cheering NPCs as you walk by. I hope it takes months of dailys, and that you can speed it along a bit by farming mobs or drops or both.

    WoW needs long term things you work toward. A good grind that you can work for in small increments here and there, but each time you do you are ATHAT much closer to the end. All the old reps are a joke now, last character i did it on, timbermaw took an hour to go from unfriendly to exalted. AN HOUR! There's no sense of achievemnt in that, no satisfaction. Before, if you saw somebody on a wintersaber then you knew they really worked to get that thing. Same for Loremaster and The Diplomat and The Insane. It wasn't about getting an upgrade, it wasn't about lording it over other people (unless you were a jerk), it was about having a goal and reaching it, and if you saw another person with the same thing, you had a mutual respect because you each knew what the other had to go through to get it.

    1. It is sad seeing those reputations you worked for, like thorium, timbermaw, and the such, be so easy to get now. To some extent you do not even need to try to get them. You are nearly granted exalted just for questing in the area. That is not a grind, that is just doing quests.

  4. I agree, in fact one of the reasons I stopped p(l)aying the game was that I detest the current tabard system as it makes no sense. Why should e.g. Silvermoon now be overly concerned with Stocks?

    I also liked the idea of getting a Tabard after you have proven yourself to a Faction, instead of before.

    As for 'good grinds', I have always been very partial to casual friendly ones ie those that aren't gated. If I want to spend my free Sunday getting Wintersaber Rep, I want to spend my free Sunday getting Wintersaber Rep, not having a 5-minute Daily.

    The only pain with older Grinds was the whole juggling of things ie these mobs give Rep till Honored, these till Revered etc. etc.

    As a result, the very best grind the game imo has is Cenarion Circle: you can get rep by killing outdoor mobs, by Instance mobs, by turn-ins, by regular Quests and by repeatable Quests (a precussor to Dailies, though much more agreeable; in praxis of course the CC gave too little Rep/time needed to complete them, but still, having plenty of options was great).

    1. I loved the cenarion circle as well. As a matter of fact, I think that was the first faction I ever got to exalted.

      I agree with the concept of wintersaberish reputations. Ones that you can do when you feel like it, be it for 5 minutes or 5 hours.