Wednesday, September 25, 2013

Me Vs. The LFR Hero: Who Was Right?

I did the second wing of SoO last night and had an interesting exchange with someone who was accusing poor scruffy, a hunter pet, of wiping the raid and refused to listen to someone that actually plays the class about how the class works.  He kept trying to attack me (well not me personally but every pet class) and I kept shooting back at him in a way he had no way to defend against and he would not let it go.  He would not just say, oh, I didn't know that.  He had to blame the wipe on scruffy and would not accept it had nothing to do with a pet.

When I said this exchange to a friend he told me I was in the wrong, I should have just let it slide.  I said, and not teach people?  He said, yes, you should have just let it go.

Normally I am not confrontational and will usually let things go but lately I've just reached the boiling point in the game and I am not just going to sit back and listen to people rip others to inflate their own personal epeen any longer.  If a person is wrong, I am going to tell them they are wrong.

So here is the exchange, as best I can remember it.  I did stay respectful and oddly enough so did he even if I could tell that he was getting fustrated that I was questioning his LFR hero status of the guy that knows everything.

The exchange is after I joined an already in progress LFR on the last boss of the second wing, General Nazgrim.  The person explaining the fight gives a run down of the fight but we still wipe.  Our LFR hero (not the person that explained the fight to begin with) starts to rage at the people that kept attacking when he was in defensive stance, rightfully so I will add.  There were plenty of the DPS that were more concerned with their own epeen than mechanics, and I hate that crap and they deserve to be bitched at.  He repeats it over and over a few times, do not attack when in defensive stance.  I agreed with him, he said nothing wrong, so there was no exchange there, but there was next time.  The group does better the next time but still wipes.

So now after 2 wipes here we are when the LFR hero starts to pick apart why we wiped.  His reasoning was that all the hunters, warlocks and mages pets where still attacking during defensive.  He picked hunters to make a point of as there were 5 in the group, me being one of them.

LFR Hero:  Are all you hunters brain dead?
LFR Hero:  I said do not attack during defensive, that means pets too.  They wiped us.  Control them.
Me:  The pets did not wipe us.
LFR Hero:  What is so hard about not attacking when he is in defensive, he gains rage when he is attacked.
Me:  Pet attacks do not cause him to gain rage, so that had nothing to do with it.
LFR Hero:  Your pets should be on the adds.
Me:  Not when all the adds are dead.
LFR Hero:  Just don't have your pets attack, they give him rage.
Me:  Once again, pet attacks do not give him rage when he is in defensive.
LFR Hero:  You can't be sure of that, just take your pets off the boss how hard is that?
Me:  Yes I can be sure, pets do not grant rage.
LFR Hero:  Have you done it in normal, how can you be sure?
Me:  Not yet on normal, but I have in flex and I know how to read.
LFR Hero:  Then learn how to read passive and put your pet on passive.
Me:  No need, pets do not give him rage.  I read the T16 hunter tips and tricks over at MMOC like any decent hunter should and it specifically says that pets can safely attack.  I'll take their word over yours thank you very much.
LFR Hero:  Just don't have your pets attack, he will go down faster that way.
Me:  Actually, if every pet class put their pet on passive and manually sent them to attack him so they stayed on him all the time instead of running all over the place he would go down faster.
LFR Hero:  You don't know what you are talking about, how would that make him go down faster.
Me:  More damage being dealt to him means his life goes down faster.
LFR Hero:  Just take your dam pets off the boss.
Me:  No thank you.

The tank pulled after that, we downed him, I made sure to leave my pet on the boss the entire time.  I understand the person was trying to do the right thing in helping the group, but giving out the wrong information while noble in theory, is not really helping anyone.   Add to that, blaming the wipe on something that could have not even possibly been responsible for it is wrong.

I was nice about it, he was nice about it, no curse words flew out, we just disagreed.  I think the rest of the raid was in awe because no one said anything the whole time we had the exchange.  They were probably waiting for the curses and insults to start flying but they never did.  The ready check popped up in the background, and the pull timer was put up, all while we talked.  They just let us go at it.

It is not an isolated incident either.  Two other hunters I spoke to said the same thing happened in their LFR.  They had someone yelling at them for having their pets attack when he was in defensive.  I believe it is our duty, as good hunters, to educate the community about these things and not let someone think he knows everything and blame it on the hunters pet.  Sure, our pets have made a mess of things hundreds if not thousands of times, but this is not one of them.  I had to stand up for scruffy.  The wipe was not his fault.

Do you think I should have done what I normally would do and just not say anything and let the guy rant saying it was the pets fault or do you think I was right trying to educate him?

Either way, we downed the boss and I am sure even if I won that battle I lost the war.  Next time he is in there he will most likely blame some pet class for a wipe.  Some people just can not learn.  Maybe I was wrong, maybe I was wasting my breath, but at least scruffy knows I love him and I stuck up for him, and that is all that matters.


  1. Don't know about LFR, but in normal mode, pet attacks, including auto attack, DO put rage on Nazgrim. It could very well be different in Raid Finder.

    1. If that is indeed true then I would owe that guy a heartfelt apology.

      However, being some of the hunters from top guilds post and contribute to the tips and tricks I will still defer to their word over yours and that of someone in the LFR.

      Not saying they could not be wrong, but I am sure if someone suggested that as a tip and it was wrong he would have surely been bashed about it and it would have been removed from the tips section.


  2. hmmm.. I don't know if that's worth the energy or not. Had it been in a real raid, or even a flex pug, and that guy was the "leader", then I'd say you might have been in the wrong, regardless of whether or not he was saying nonsense. If it's a real raid, I'd have whispered the RL.

    In LFR, never seeing those people again, clarifying might have been better for the general population. Sometimes in LFR the person who's taken charge will say a strategy I don't think is best, and I won't argue with them, because it'd be better for everyone to do the less efficient strat than for some people to do one strat and some to do another. But in this case, it's not really a different strategy. It's a fact, it's either true or not. So I think you're in the clear.

    My 25n is on Nazgrim this weekend. I've been using that MMOChamp thread for all the other fights, I hope they're correct on this one also. Assuming they're all correct, all of our hunters will be in BM so we can kill command all through defensive. Ah well, still gotta finish Dark Shamans before I think much more about that. :)


    1. I read the whole thread, at least as of yesterdays posting, and it seems to be that no one is arguing it. If it was wrong I am sure someone would have said something already. I sure hope it is right as it is what I use as well.

      Good luck with him. My 25 is still in flex modes, not quite ready for normals, but they are getting there.

  3. In general I support your argument, if you're 100% sure that the advice being given is wrong (and especially if it's incorrect advice that's likely to propogate into other LFR groups and become a "thing") then I think it's important to make the correction and stand by it. I think you did the right thing.

    On the other hand, in this PARTICULAR case, I think you were wrong. It's the first week that the fight is available in LFR and, frankly, not enough data exists to say for sure whether pets increase his rage or not and far as I know there's nothing in the official Blizzard info except that "tanks are excepted"... no mention of class pets.

    So, at MOST, I'd have said "I think you're wrong but we'll play along and hope it helps." MMO-C and other resources are wonderful but a) you linked to a forum post, not official info, and b) things change, hotfixes are coming in fast and furious and not everything that changes is documented. Even what you're 100% sure is correct may not be so the next day unless it's something you can actually test and verify during the fight YOURSELF (for instance, if you can survive standing in fire by hitting Deterrence and someone claims that you can't, THAT you'd be able to disprove in a hurry) and AT THAT TIME, I wouldn't push it, you could be wrong even if you're going from apparently solid info.

    Plus, at least the guy recommended something that COULD actually have contributed to a wipe... 90% of the stuff like that I see in LFR is flat-out unrelated to the wipe. I love fights with tank swaps where the tanks don't swap and people blame the healers. THAT's where I'd step in and set the record straight.

    So, in general, I support your response, just not in this particular case. And I'd have taken my pet off the boss during defensive stance anyway since I'd never seen anything indicating whether they were safe or not. If in doubt, go with the more obvious path, not the "trick". Save the optimizing for normal/heroic, last thing LFR needs is people being encouraged to do things their way because they think they know better.

    I'll agree, though, beyond the early guy who said pets can't attack, everyone afterward that I saw seemed convinced that pets don't increase rage. No clue what their basis for saying that is, though, nor what @Anon is using for reference that they do. Regardless, I wouldn't say there's conclusive proof either way, it just seems to lean heavily toward being safe.

    1. You have a great point. They might not be granting rage now, or when that post was made, but who knows if they is a bug and they will "fix" it next patch to make them grant him rage. You are right there. They do have a way of changing things like that because they were not working as intended. I saw leave it as is. Pets have a mind of their own and making a pet class have to micro manage their pets would be putting added burden on them. I believe that is why pets do not add rage.

      Not sure if you play a hunter, but even when switching to adds, my pet will stay on the boss for a little bit. When switching between adds, he will make pit stops at the boss and throw a few shots in. Pets are just doing what they are supposed to do, protect you. Sure I could do the passive and attack thing but I should not have to, no pet class should have to. Just my opinion of course.

      I see that "blame the healer" mentality and love it when someone points out that it was half the raid doing 40K that wiped us, not the healers. A lot of times healers get blamed for something it is really something that could have not been healed through to begin with.

      I don't have much first hand knowledge to work with either, only a couple of flex kills where we left pets on the boss and had no issues. But maybe it is just different in flex, which I don't believe it would be because isn't the idea of flex to be exactly like normal but more forgiving?

      Heck, even did it with a 10 man that had 3 hunters and all three hunters had their pets on him the entire time and we only had 2 of those axes the entire fight.

    2. (you have too many @Anons these days, I'll start going by R now as I have elsewhere)

      The assist stance for pet is a bit wonky but I think it's by design, I think it's supposed to allow you to do something like toss a CC or a Serpent Sting out on a secondary target without having your pet move off the primary target, which is why it takes a few seconds to react. Problem is, I find it often reacts even if you ONLY use one GCD on a secondary target so it'll leap over there to that mob, hit it once (if it isn't CCd, at least) and then walk slowly back to the original mob. It's far from a perfect system but at least it's better than we used to have. I think.

      I don't really have an issue with hunters (and warlocks, and frost mages) having to put their pets on passive temporarily to pull them off as long as pets that you can't do that with (non-upgraded Fire Elementals, the warlock 10m CD pets (Wrathguards?), monk Xuens pre-5.4 (now they have a pet bar so it isn't an issue but would have been earlier), etc) won't trigger it. "Stop dps" is a pretty simple and (too-)common requirement in raiding, no reason LFR folks shouldn't be introduced to it as well.

      I've only killed that boss once, on Flex, so I have even less experience than you do. What I *do* know is that our raid hunter and warlock did pull their pets off the boss during that phase. "Tanks only" is "Tanks only", especially in the first week. I can see them experimenting this week, though. It'd be worth an attempt to figure it out if they want to. And we only had 1 axe... ;) And yes, my understanding is that the mechanics should be identical with Flex but there could be some minor exceptions, intentional or not. I mean, they had to hotfix a fight where a change they made for LFR (I think) also made it into Flex, Normal and Heroic... if that type of thing can happen once, it's entirely possible that a "pets can't generate rage in LFR" mechanic could also end up at the higher difficulties temporarily, leading to a bunch of "yep, pets can attack" posts that turn out to be wrong long-term. Maybe. Who knows. :)

    3. All the anons confuse me, but sometimes I can pick up the styles they write in so I know which is who. I think.

      Maybe when we do it this week I will take a closer look. Let everyone else play DPS and I will just focus on the boss and see if he is moving up.

      It would be nice to get some first hand confirmation. But like I mentioned, there are some very good hunters that post over there, I think if someone gave a tip that was wrong they would have said something.

      That is one thing I always loved about hunters, they have a huge community that supports themselves. Maybe it is from not trying hard enough, but I've never seen a more active community than the hunter one.

      Would end up being s huge Oops, I screwed up, moment if that post is wrong. :P

    4. I'll be honest, there were a few times I went back a few posts, saw an Anon comment and wasn't 100% sure if it was something I'd posted or not. It's even confusing from our side at times. :)

      (the 2-part Anon posts were obviously mine, though)

      WoW Insider just posted the "pets are safe" comment but looks like entirely based on the MMO-C thread. Still, I'm considering that the most official info available yet, most folks would likely consider WI info to be expected to be accurate. It'd be a bigger deal if they posted incorrect info than you calling out a guy in LFR. :)

      And yeah, the hunter community is pretty good... I'm still waiting for ANY kind of Death Knight community to show up. You'd think as the trendy class during the glory days of WoW blogging during Wrath that there'd be a ton of DK resources out there... but nope, not that I've ever seen.

    5. Yeah, I saw that, but he took his data from the same place I did. So he is not "confirming" what I said, more so echoing it.

      I used to have a great DK blog linked but it disappeared. There are really no resources out there for them which as you said, is weird. Maybe we have just not stumbled on it and they are out there in the secret hidden corners of the internet.

    6. As a final comment on this, my pet class raid-mates in flex are still pulling their pets back for defensive stance so I don't have any personal experience on whether pets add to rage or not. Not sure if you've had a chance to confirm personally or not, I'd appreciate the confirmation one way or the other if you have.

    7. I did it on flex again last night in a group with 4 hunters, 3 mages and 4 locks, that means 11 pets that were all beating the crap out of him that first defensive phase when there were no adds up and we were just standing there.

      That entire time, while waiting on new adds, he did not reach 100 rage. So, while not conclusive, I guess they do not add anything because I am sure 11 people attacking for about 15-20 seconds would have surely pushed it to 100 rage.

  4. The pet should NEVER be in any other stance than PASSIVE when in a group. Your pets aren't wonky, it's because you don't know how to play properly. If you can't micro manage a pet you shouldn't be playing a class that has one.

    /petpassive [mod:alt]
    /stopattack [mod:alt]

    You can change targets as much as you want and your pet won't move an inch, if you need to manage any other mobs. The pet will also move on a dime, when macro is pushed. Holding down alt and pushing the macro will stop your auto attack and your pets attack.

    1. Pets are wonky, if you think otherwise, you do not pay enough attention to what is going on and do not know how to play your class.

      Seriously, you can micro manage as much as you want, your pet will always do stupid things. It is bad game design, it is not the ability of the hunter. Even when you have your pet on passive and send it in manually, it will occasionally switch targets for no reason. Do not just think because you have a macro all is well. That is wrong. You actually have to pay attention to your pet.

      On the fight in question I just put my pet on the boss and leave them there. Job done. No pet DPS lost, no wonky pet, nothing. Simple, easy. Even at that, it occasionally still starts off at another target for some odd reason but that is how you play a hunter on that fight correctly.

      The only time I used additional pet macros personally are in PvP, in PvE it is never needed if you know what you are doing on the pull. You are trying to over complicate something that is not complicated at all.

  5. Pets on passive in the general Naz fight was the cause of me leaving my raiding guild. We had two hunters in our team, and were following instruction to keep pets on passive while Naz was in Defensive Stance, but my dire beast went to Naz when all the adds were down. It was a slight misunderstanding between the two hunters who's pet was over there. but some members of the raid team took great pleasure in the misunderstanding and used it to ridicule us for the couple days. Ended up that both the hunters left the guild independently. So its really interesting to me that that pets dont have to be on passive at all ffs!

    1. I see in LFR that people go screaming "pets on passive" all the time.

      I think that is the reason they do not need to be on passive. Blizzard knew that they have minds on their own. Even when I was sending them with a marco to attack my target they would still dart over the general once in a while against my wishes even if on passive with an assist.

      Pets have a mind of their own, some pets, like dire beast, can not be controlled, to penalize the people that have pets or imps or procs like the last tier serpents or voodoo gnomes or what have you, that can not be controlled, is just wrong and could wipe a team.

      I believe that is the reason that pets, even ones that can be controlled, do not build rage. Just a guess however.

      I can not believe they left over it. They should have either stood up for themselves. Point out that the DB can not be controlled. Point out that pets to not build rage. Basically defend their class and their actions.

      I can understand a raid leader not know even if I believe it is his job to know because they can not know everything. But people should know their own class, even more so if they intend to raid.