Tuesday, July 21, 2015

Historical Revisionism: The Wrath Time Walker Dungeons

I really enjoyed the time walker wrath dungeons but I think I enjoyed them a little too much for the completely wrong reasons.  It is sort of like the entire game has had collective amnesia or just decided as a whole to write a historical revision of what wrath dungeons were like.  I was starting to think I was the only one that remembered the truth.

It is not like this came completely as a surprise for me being I have been hearing for so long how wrath dungeons were just mass pull AoE fests that had no mechanics and nothing that could kill you.  It seems every time a conversation about dungeons comes up on any forum system out there it always falls into how easy the wrath dungeons were.

It always made me wonder what these people were smoking.  And why were they not sharing.  If you were to ask me if the wrath dungeons were easier than the cataclysm dungeons I would surely say yes, but they were harder than anything we saw in mists and harder than anything we saw in warlords.  Not like the people that read and post on the forums would ever agree with that.  The manta that wrath dungeons were easy has been going on so long that people just repeat it without thinking.  They do not realize that they are making up a new history for them, that they were never actually as easy as people remember them to be.

I think what happens is that people remember what it was like when the group finder was first added to the game.  Having quick access to dungeons we all already knew and all greatly out geared gave the impression they were easy.  You could get 5 random people and do them nice and easy.  Well lets see, getting into one in 20 minutes was new, being able to spam them every 20 minutes was new, and being able to group with a massive pool of people whom, most likely over geared it and knew it like the back of their hand, made them super easy.

Anything is easy when you over gear it.  Even cataclysm dungeons were easy once you knew the fights and over geared them.  Yes, even before they gave some slight nerfs to them, yes, even in that first week, cataclysm dungeons had already reached easy mode.  If you found a group in all dungeon gear that had done all the bosses before, they were no problem what so ever.  But if you managed to get a group that had new people, or a new tank or even more importantly a new healer, cataclysm dungeons were still hard.  Just like wrath dungeons.

Yes Virgina, wrath dungeons were harder than people remember them to be.  And this time walking weekend was a complete laugh fest for me because of that fact.  Sadly I took way to much enjoyment out of watching others die.  Tanks mostly, lots of bad tanks.

Either with people that were new to the game and never did them and only knew what they read on the forums, or with people that forgot the fights, or with people that never did them on release, they all walked in there thinking they could just run hog wild all over the place and it would be no problem.

Oh the deaths, the repair bills, the sudden change to asking for CC, asking what the tactics were, it was all worthy of a hearty laugh.  I have been proven that my history, the real history, not the historical revisionism that seems to have taken a hold of the people that do not know better, has won out.

And the biggest beauty is that we massively over gear these dungeons.  And people are still wiping.

We are doing the numbers we would be doing at the end of wrath in these dungeons while scaled to a 160 item level.  Let me tell you first hand, from someone that had been there and remembers it, there was no one in the game doing 15K in a dungeon at a 160 item level.  Nope, not even close.  When they first came out and you first went in there if you had a group were everyone was doing 1500, not 15000, you would most likely have a nice and smooth run as long as everyone knew the fights already.  In all honesty all you needed to do wrath dungeons was 1K DPS from all the damage dealers.

If you manged to get someone doing 2K in a wrath dungeon and they were paying attention and not doing stupid stuff or standing in bad, you were running the dungeon in god mode because things died so fast with huge numbers like that.  Even if the other two damage dealers died as long as you had that one person you could do the bosses.  So seeing people do, even on the low end, 5K, in these dungeons, keep in mind we are still over gearing them.  Over gearing them by a huge margin, and people are still wiping and I am loving it.

These groups that are wiping with us doing these insanely high numbers, I would love to see them actually do these dungeons as they first came out.  I bet they would not be able to.  They would need too much coordination, they would need too many line of sight pulls, they would need people to interrupt, to cleanse, to dispel.  They would need people to actually know how to play their characters.  Bottom line is wrath dungeons were not the face roll dungeons people talk about all the time.  Even when you were in your full ICC 25 heroic gear you could still wipe to bosses in there and you were doing 15K like you are now.

The dungeons were only a laugh fest to groups that knew the dungeons and over geared them.  Any dungeon, even on release, was always easier with a competent group that knew how to play.  They were not like that otherwise, and maybe some of the people that got suckered in by the false mantra that wrath dungeons were easy will finally realize that they weren't.  Or maybe now they will learn the fights and know what to do, and being they are doing end of wrath numbers at beginning of wrath item level it will become a laugh fast once more.  But at least for a moment, even a short lived one, they realized, wrath dungeons could kill you.  Even when you over powered them like we do now, if you do not follow the mechanics.

Now to some of my funny stories, please feel free to share some of yours, because I have never had so much fun wiping.  I got a kick out of these people thinking "this is so easy" and then having it shoved in their faces, "no it is not".  Was even better when the person that called it easy realized their errors of their way and admitted it is not.

The First Five:

My first five time walking dungeons were on Friday night on my main, the hunter.  It was with a guild group that did not have a tank so we needed to get a tank for each run.  Two of the players, myself and the healer, were vets, we had been there and done that and we both knew what they could be like when wrath first came out.  The other two were new, so we had fun explaining everything to them and sharing some stories.


First dungeon we get a DK tank, it is halls of lightning.  He seemed like he had never been there before, or at least never tanked it.  Or at least that is the conclusion I came to after the first boss.

The tank ran straight in and started to pull even before everyone zoned in.  I had entered first, him second, and he took off like a bat out of hell.  He did survive on the first pack long enough for the healer to make it in and started to go down the road.

He then pulled the boss, the bosses his adds, the two adds leading up to him and the entire pack of, what is it, 5, mobs that are in that first corner.  He was taking massive hits, the healer was doing the best he could.  We could make no headway on any mob as the healers were all over them.  I had the DPS focus on one at a time and we managed to get a couple down but the healer was oom trying to keep the tank up and we wiped.

I said to the healer, bet you this guy never did these dungeons before because if he had he would have known you do not pull the boss until the adds are clear.   Second time, he does the same exact thing and we almost wipe, at least we had killed some last time.  The healer mentioned to him he can not do pulls like that, he will wipe the group.  His only line that whole dungeon is, these dungeons are so easy, they're wrath dungeons, just keep up.

A few times during the run the tank went all crazy pulling, each time we stood behind as a team and revived him when he died.  He never got a clue.  The last room before the boss he pulled three packs and with their knockbacks, fears, and other fun stuff, we wiped again, multiple times.  He could not keep aggro on any of them because they were all over the place.


Group 5 was also the halls of lightning, I am skipping 2, 3 and 4 for a moment to stick with the same dungeon.  We get another DK tank that had me laughing the entire run because I kept ripping aggro off him.

I said, wow, these really are wrath dungeons when I have to watch everything I do or I get to tank the mob.  And remember, in wrath if you pulled a mob you were most likely dead.  The trash did not mess around in there if you screwed up on aggro.

Every single pull I would do my first shot and the mob would come to me.  Even with a misdirection the mob would come to me.  I started to joke how long I can wait and still pull a mob off the tank.  I waited 5 second, hit misdirect, hit one shot, then stopped, and a couple of seconds later, boom, mob was on me.

Next pull I did it without a misdirect, waited a full 10 seconds, targeted the tanks target, not some random add, did one shot, mob came flying at me.  We were all laughing like crazy on voice chat, had a great old time.

The tank was taking it slow, letting us CC, seemed to have done it before, but he had some massive aggro issues just like I remember every tank in wrath having back then.  If it were a paladin I would have guessed his RF was not on, but the tank was in blood, not exactly sure what happened, but it was really funny.  We were placing bets on if he would keep aggro on any given mob.  Lots of laughs to be had from everyone.


Utgarde pinnacle here we come.  I remember running this countless times trying to get that damn drake.  Used to solo it in wrath on my hunter, yes a hunter could solo it, every chance I got to try and get the thing.  I must have done it well over 800 times before I got it to drop.  A couple of weeks later a healer of mine gets it out of a bribe bag.  Son of a...  Makes me feel like I wasted all that time farming for it if I got it without even trying from a bribe bag.  The least they could have done it allow me to sell it, but that is another story.  I was sure the mount would drop being I did not need it any more.  This was my first time stepping foot into it since I got the mount.

The tank surely was new on this one.  He started to clear the entire first room.  We just went along with it.  No biggie really, but we would tell him about things later so he does not make any mistakes.  Well, two things in particular.  To run down the hallway to the end, and to LoS the mobs in the last room out.

He managed the first part just fine, second, I don't think he understood how to do a line of sight pull.  He ran in and aggroed them, he got feared out toward us, they aggroed on us, more fears, more people all over the place, and wipe time it was.

Second attempt did not go that well either, maybe a blood worm got feared.  Can that even happen?   He only pulled it to the doorway, not through, and the middle pack came out, but at least he was getting better at it.

Third attempt he did it right and we manged. He said in chat.  This is not what I expected.  I thought these were easier.  This seems like it has harder pulls then mythic dungeons.  He laughed, we laughed, it was a fun wiping experience.  Still not exactly sure how someone makes it to level 100 and still does not know how to line of sight pull, but that is another story all together.


Third run was nexus and story time again.  It was not only the first dungeon I ran on heroic, it was also the first dungeon I was able to solo on heroic.  My first time doing it on heroic we had a warlock tank.  Nope, not shitting you.  Remember, you needed to assemble your groups by hand back then and tanks were few and far between.  So we did it without a tank.  Remember that doom lord thing you needed everyone to click on and it tried to kill someone when it was summoned?  Made for a good tank.

Either way, we had a paladin tank that made it clear he had no idea what he was doing when he entered, he said so, no guessing here.  He moved slowly because he had to, at first at least.  Once his confidence level went up, which did not take too long at all, he started to over pull.  More so in the room with the first boss in ice blocks.  He pulled the whole room right away before I could even type that there was a boss there.  We wiped.

Second time he over pulled it once again and we wiped once more to people getting feared further down the hall.  I refused to die, I wanted to take out some of the adds first because we did some serious damage to them so I started kiting.  Not used to doing it without a pet because I could always use the taunt on the pet to get one off of me if it got too close and I was running lone wolf MM, but I did manage to take out 4 mobs before I died.  Tried to hit FD but was a little to late.  I wanted to get that last shot off.  Either way, we killed him the next time.

So he takes the next trash up the hill without looking and did not realize there is a pack of 4 and a patting pack of three and ends up with all 7.  The healer gets eaten alive pretty quick, we do manage to stay alive, he was doing well rotating cooldowns.  The healer gets back just as he died, uses a battle res on him and then dies again instantly.  But we do finish them off.  Does the tank wait for him to get back?  Of course not.  He charges ahead to the next pack in the boss room, I tell the DPS to let him die.   We revive him after he dies and the healer finally makes it back.

Then for some odd reason he goes straight ahead, not into the boss room like he did originally, and pulls the side pack and drags them back to the room pack.  Oh hell, we got a lot of mobs.  The healer goes full on crazy mode and manages to keep us up, but he pulls the boss instantly even though the healer wasted nearly all their mana keeping us up.  We kill it with only one causality, the tank.  Good for him.

The entire run he does the same thing.  Takes it slow for one or two pulls, gets some confidence and pulls a ton and kills us.  Clearing packs we can skip, trying to skip packs we can't.  I am thinking this guy was not just new to the dungeon, he must be new to tanking to not understand what can and can not be skipped.  Knowing stuff like that is usually one of the first skills a tank develops.  I think we wiped, or came close to wiping, 10 times in that dungeon.


Gundrak was the 4th one I did.  Never did manage to get old kingdom on any of the characters I did this with, would love to see how bad tanks dealt with the spell flingers and their 80% hit.  Back in the day every new tank that thought they were god mode would run in there trying to pull three of them only to die instantly to 240% max health damage.  I guess now is no different, but all I can do is guess as I did not get it.

Gundrak never made me think of it as the type of dungeon that had a lot of instant death mechanics but it sure seems like it does now.  We did not wipe, often, but we did lose people on nearly every single pull.  Had a warrior tank that thought he was in a race and of course it was our job to cover his ass when he over pulled, again and again.  We were getting better at covering for poor tanks now however as it seems there are only poor tanks running this.

A few times however he went too far.  Like I said, seemed someone died every single pull.  We wiped a couple of times on trash but had no issues with the bosses.  Last boss was just two people alive, the tank and the healer.  I do not remember that rhino charge being a one shot kill but when he charged me I died and I was at full health when that happened.  Overtuned much?  Maybe not.  Maybe I too am misremembering it to be easier than it really was.  Maybe it was a one shot mechanic at 160 item level and I just never got hit by it to remember.  Maybe you remember.

Summation of the First Five:

It was a guild group and even with two complete noobs to the content it went a lot better than it might have otherwise.  Us doing huge numbers compared to what we should be doing in there, which should have been between 1 and 2 K, made up for a lot of the errors that the tanks made, but nearly every error was a tank error.  All because they probably read the forums and thought, oh I can pull whole rooms.  Ah, no, you can not, you never could in wrath dungeons, at least not until you over geared it by 100 item levels.

Funny Statements:

On my horde hunter in a gundrak, one of the damage dealers says "I hate this, I used to do 30K in these and now I am doing 5K".  I said, "Sorry, you were never doing 30K in these, 30K in dungeons did not come until cataclysm"  He swore up and down that he used to be able to do 30K, and the best part is when he said, the only reason he is doing so low now is because he has crap gear.  That was good for a laugh.   He was a level 100 in mostly normal mode gear, better than my hunter who is not even LFR geared, yet I quadrupled him.  Guess scaling works better for hunters huh?

On multiple characters, in multiple dungeons, by multiple tanks I heard something like this.  "It is only a wrath dungeon so I am going to be pulling big and pulling fast".  It always, yes each and every single time, ended with a dead tank and the group following shortly after.  Each time I laughed, even more so when I was on a hunter or rogue that could drop aggro.

Last boss in halls of lightning, on my rogue, paladin healer says to the ranged, "don't worry about standing on top of him, I can heal though this easily".  One ranged dies, the other ranged dies, I die, healer dies tank dies.  One DPS, "I thought you said this was easy to heal"  Paladin says, "It used to be easier they must have increased the difficulty."  Both me and the tank say, at the same time, "these are actually a hell of a lot easier than they used to be".  BTW, we wiped again a second time with everyone stacking that time too.  The healer swore up and down it used to be easier.  I did it early on, and no, it was not.  If anything that boss was probably the hardest boss in a heroic I ever faced if you have a fresh max level healer with you, and heck, even some well geared healers could not handle it.  The guy is lucky we were doing over 7K each instead of the 2K each we might have been doing at best when it was at level, or we would have never managed that boss.

Gundrak, horde hunter, DK tank, he has never been there, we all jump down, he hits path of frost, we all die.  He says, sorry, did not know the fall was that far.  I died, but I found it very funny.

Frustrated DPS when I enter a halls of lightning.  "Not this one again.  Please be able to do this, I have spent hours wiping here in different groups.  I will server transfer a character with 1000 gold to each of your servers if we can finish this".  Not sure why I thought this was so funny but it made me laugh.  I'll laugh even more if I end up with 1K gold in my mailbox, I really am not expecting it.

I think most of my favorite moments were when tanks died because they over pulled.  I am not sure which room I think of as the best.  It is a close tie between the knockback guys in HoL or the fear guys in UP that they always refuse to light of sight pull.  Both rooms can quickly mean death with a bad pull and from this weekend there is one thing I know for sure, tanks do not learn how to pull any more.  Those rooms were rooms of death over and over and each time it was fun laughing at the cocky tank.

In the end Wrath dungeons are easy.  If you know what you are doing.  Or as it seems, if you have a tank that knows what they are doing.  With the scaling down we already over gear it.  So all you need is a tank that did not fall for all the hype that wrath dungeons were easy and you will have no problem with any of them.  They are easy.  When you get a group that knows what they are doing.

To end this I will quote a healer on voice chat from one of his runs.  "This damn druid tank can not take even one hit, why does he keep insisting we pull entire rooms, I hate these dungeons."  Yeap, seems like the wrath dungeons are all about the tanks.  Just like they were back in wrath and where the tank ego started to really get inflated.  So they might have messed up the scaling, but they nailed the importance of tanks perfectly.  Maybe the fact they all seem to suck will put their ego in check a little bit.  But I doubt it, they will just blame the healer, or the DPS, or the price of tea.

I had a lot of fun and a lot of laughs at the expense of others this weekend, how about you?


  1. Idk, it seems all the described fails and wipes are about poor tanking. Which is true for every dungeon, not exactly Timewalking.

    My experience is dull. LFG, then without saying a word in chat save voice chat, pug effectively swipes out everything in a dungeon (usually without deaths) and leaves.

    That's the style we normally do dungeons in russian language realms. So I didn't notice any difference between doing wrath timewalking and wrath while leveling.

    1. As an American I can say, with full faith in the fact it is true, many American players are jerks.

      I think I would enjoy your smooth professional attitude runs a lot better than the mouthy ego driven randoms I see people have in the US.

      I have a saying, which seems to usually be true most of the time for random groups. The person that speaks the most in the group is usually the worst player.

      Can I come to your realm? lol

    2. My experience was like gnomecore in that it was dull overall but different in that it they were often full of a fair amount of wipes in the the start of each run.

      Overall, I give it a solid meh.

      I'll try them again but the fundamentals of what time walking is, just don't interest me.

    3. As time goes on and the new people learn them we will not even see those beginning wipes. Just the way things are. If people know everything it is easy, if they don't it is hard.

      I don't mind having the throwback to the past but over all I agree, it really is not a major draw for me and surely is not something that would keep me coming back for more.

  2. I always liked the old dungeons where you actually had to think and maybe CC even on trash. It was funny how one of the problems with older dungeons was you basically wanted all your dps to have CC but back then only a few classes did. Then they gave basically every class CC eventually and took away the need to ever use it. I loved tanking back then when you could show you knew how to tank instead of just run in and spam your aoe ability. Kill orders, cc targets, learning how to pull certain packs and what patrolling packs to watch out for. Actually had a need for marking so much that the main marks were keybound (after they added that to the game). Glad you enjoyed some laughs this weekend.

    1. I admired those old school tanks. The ones that knew the way the pats went, knew how to line of sight pull, the ones that put up the kill order on the next pack while you were still killing this pack.

      And one of the key things I do that I learned from them that I do not see other tanks do often, if at all, is I wait for my group. If we are skipping a pack I just do not run past it waiting for them to come. I run up, stand and wait, until everyone has made it past safe and sound, then I move on. Now that is what a real tank does.

      It is amazing looking back at the tanks I first ran with, the ones I learned from, and seeing that none of that stuff really seems to matter any more.

      But when I am in a random and I see a tank do things like waiting for everyone to pass, or pulling back mobs, or marking targets, I always shoot them a whisper when it is over saying thank you for the nice run.

      I have a great respect for "real" tanks. I have no respect for the modern looking for group tanks.

  3. So where exactly would you need/learn to los while leveling to 100 nowadays?
    Los, kiting and other slang are not needed leveling and you don't suddenly learn the terms.

    1. I don't really know.

      I know I learned while leveling when I leveled. Even when I level now I already know so it is hard to say where I would learn it.

      However, if I had to make up a situation where one might learn it, here is one.

      There is a caster mob you want to kill, if you run up to it you might pull another 4 or 5 mobs, but if you hit it with a ranged ability and get behind a rock it will come to you and you can kill it without pulling more mobs.

      Now, that fits for every single class in the game. Not just tanks. Every class in the game should know things like that, but for a tank, it is part of the job description.

    2. Everything dies so easily now. I learned in dungeons though, not while leveling. Scarlet monastery, I think. In the open world there aren't many corners and no fear of getting feared into a wipe or overpulling. Even less so if you level as a tank, since you're pretty much immortal.

    3. When I leveled if I over pulled, I died. I think there needs to be more of that in game. Recently when leveling thought FF 14 I experienced that. It was easy to over pull, even when pulling mobs back or trying to LoS them, you could very easily over pull.

      I believe it makes people better players when there are limits to what they can handle and they have to learn them. This blow everything up with no worries of over pulling sucks. Remember merloc back in the day? On mistake and you were doing a corpse run. They had pats, they came in groups, they ran when low, they feared, they were in heavily populated areas. Now that is how gaming should be.

      I still say people should learn while leveling. To me or you, maybe being we know what to do it seems like nothing, but to someone that has no clue, I am sure they can still over pull and die now. Because they do not know what they are doing. We might not die while leveling any more, but we are not new.

  4. Boy, did i have a laugh reading your experiences, it sure did bring me back memory lane. My runs went smoothly because we were all guildies and raiders. 4 of us were veterans plus a friend as a tank that started playing in MoP. We didint use much CC because we all knew what we were doing but the fun part was the awe of the tank since he never did some of those dungeons, even in leveling mode.
    "This boss used to be a wipe fest"
    "WOOW he does so much damage! Was this normal back then?"
    "Careful with this adds, don't pull more than 1 pack or we will die"
    "WOOW really? You can die from adds here??"

    He was so innocent about the whole thing, was so funny

    1. It is great, glad he got a chance to experience it for the first time with friends.

      You should point out to him that actually this was much much much easier than they were on release.

      It is amazing how people kept up the mantra that wrath dungeons were easy. It was like they had selective memory or something.

      One of my favorite, back originally, was with a gnome DK that was completely lost on what to do. He was a DPS, not a tank, but all he did the entire fight was drop death and decay and auto attack. He did manage 400 DPS however, but we got a kick out of him. He looked like he was having so much fun. He would make a long running start into the pack of mobs the tank had, drop D&D at his feet and then run away.

      Not sure why I loved it so much. Most times people hate players like that, but I loved him. Someone wanted to kick him but I said, no let him say, I like him. Of course this was late in the expansion and we really did not need his DPS, but he was entertaining.

  5. Your luck is as bad in finding random groups as it is in getting drops. I did 5 on my mage and 5 on my DK, all through the group finder with no friends or guildies. I don't remember a single wipe - no CC, no coordination, just burn stuff down. Wrath dungeons really were as easy and straight forward as most people remember them.

    1. My luck is horrible.

      And we majorly over gear them. We are doing end of wrath numbers, in some cases more, so of course they have the potential to be easy. As long as you do not get tanks like I did.

    2. @Grumpy: Overpulling tanks wipe groups. The chances of the group wiping on overpulling depend on how tightly tuned the dungeon was.

    3. And the group as a whole.

      An amazing healer can keep tanks up for a lot longer then they should survive. Fantastic DPS can kill things fast enough to ease the pain on the tank and the work on a healer.

      But over all, the tank still needs to know if he has a group behind him that can handle the pull. As someone who enjoys tanking, I make an effort to try to only pull what I believe my group can handle.

      But sometimes, for fun, I too go crazy, but only with guild mates and I warn them what is coming.

  6. My experience was closer to Anon's than yours. I didn't get around to doing any Timewalking till last night (maybe everyone learned the fights over the weekend?). UP and Gundrak. The tank got himself killed on the drake boss, and everyone else but me ended up dead, but he was at about 4% by then and I was able to burn him down before he killed me. Everything else went pretty smoothly.

    I had a great time, I only wish I had gotten started sooner so I could have done more. Brought back some fond memories, those were my first dungeons.

    1. I really enjoyed doing them again. Even when there were no funny parts the memories were nice.

      Forgot about the fish too, almost had a couple of people get eaten by those bad boys in gundrak. Luckily as a hunter I've never had to worry. I disengage over them completely.

      Good times for sure.

  7. I had some not great experiences doing the Time Walker stuff.

    I was mostly healing it on my druid. I know the dungeons cold: I have Glory of the Hero and I got it when it was relevant. I've tanked and healed and DPS'd all of this stuff.

    So I zone in and invariably I'd have a tank who was clueless. I didn't know till last weekend that so many people never played during Litch King times. And that's fine, but no one wanted to listen to me.

    That first boss in HOL is like a moron check. If you want to see if someone actually LOOKS at de-buffs, that's the guy. After wiping twice from a tank who pulled all the trash up to the boss (seriously? Did he think someone else would tag it?) I said to him look at the buff...

    The trash further in was also fun. The whirling guys, the ones who stun. yeah pull it all at once!

    I'm not sure I'll do these again except in a group of friends and guildmates. The 150 gold repair bill was just silly.

    1. It seemed like a lot of the tanks I got seemed either clueless or stuck with the end of wrath mentality too.

      It seems a great deal of new player came in after wrath. Honestly I am surprised when I really shouldn't be as I am always getting new raiders that just started in the last few expansion. But it amazed me that if I had to guess more than half the people I ran into were not playing in wrath.

      Sounds like you had the same tank I had. I wonder how many other people got the same thing, pulling the boss with all the trash.

      It seemed to me, for the most part, when you had a solid tank that knew what he was doing they were super easy. When you had a tank that just wanted to chain pull everything, like they were lead to believe they could, you had troubles.

    2. @Grumpy: I can never understand overpulling. I came in during Cata and I play tanks because of short queues. I recall some dungeons having trash that were so bad that downing one group takes quite a bit of effort. From then on, I told myself to never pull multiple groups of trash ever.

    3. It is about noticing the packs and what to expect of them. As you said, you noticed which packs take forever to kill, so you adjusted. Some tanks in randoms do not notice things like that. They just pull pull pull and blame everyone else when things go wrong.

  8. Im late to the party. I missed the Wrath Timewalker dungeons, had to work that weekend.

    However, this post lets me live them vicariously a little bit.

    Grumpy, your stories are awesome and i agree with you on almost all points, except I think the Wrath Dungeons were harder at release than the Cata dungeons.

    Wrath heroics freaking sucked. It was months before my guild group was even able to do Halls of Lightning. When Cata came out, I was admittedly a much better player, but I cleared all of them with LFD groups with only a few wipes to learn them.

    Wrath was a god damn nightmare. I remember breaking 2k dps. I remember the dps desperately trying to stem the tide of adds in Violet Hold. I remember getting one shotted by that Rhino charge. I remember fucking up the LoS pulls in Pinnacle and the wipes. I remember dying to the little plant guys in Nexus because we couldnt kill them fast enough to move and they would respawn. And then I remember getting some naxx gear and being a god in those wrath heroics that could pull a mighty 4k. My volley spam destroyed all!

    Cata dungeons: Oh, look a healer mod, guess Ill brush off the old freeze trap, "Hey guys, single target, no aoe" = perfect run.

    1. I had better luck with wrath on release than with cataclysm at release. Probably for two reasons. One was I was not 80 the first day of wrath, wasn't 80 for a month as I was not an active player at the time. So I did not get that first day feeling. And the second being that in wrath I assembled the group, in cataclysm I randomed into the group. This means my wrath group was a group I could talk to, my cataclysm group was a go go go group. Team work always makes things easier.

      Halls of lightning was a nightmare, that last boss could kill even a solid group unless they had a god like healer.

      When you had a group with everyone doing 4K then wrath dungeons got so much easier. But I still wiped more than a few times in those when people had good numbers.

      The sad part is people do not remember it used to be hard. All they remember is going through at the end of the expansion when even poor players could do 5K and the good players were doing 15K or more. For dungeons that required a minimum of 1K, no wonder they were easier with those numbers. But yes, on occasion, there were still wipes even then.

      The problem with cataclysm on release was everyone went into them with end of wrath mentality and we died left and right. Those beams on clorlia (name?) where people had to step in and out seemed to always be a wipe fest. Maybe it was just me, but it seemed at least 50% of the time when I got into that one no one except me knew how to work a beam.