Sunday, December 21, 2014

Sorry, That Wipe Was My Fault

So here I am sitting in my garrison bouncing from character to character doing my mines.  I only do them on the weekend because that is the only time I really have the extra time to do so.  While doing this I read trade chat which can, at times, be quite entertaining but most of the time I can actually feel my brain cells dying off a painful death reading it.

Between the number of trolls and twelve year old children that think anal jokes and chuck norris jokes are funny it could be real painful reading trade.  Not to mention that sometimes some of the arguments in trade get down right nasty.  We have a rule in my guild that I would love to see blizzard add to the game and enforce.  But they do not enforce any rules so it would not make a difference anyway.  The rule is no talk about religion or politics.  Because even civilized people, and not just the bottom dwelling trolls and twelve year olds of trade, can get downright nasty when talking about those two subjects.

But I digress, the reason I am here is to talk about raid wiping and what someone said in trade that actually got me to speak up.  I normally do not say anything in trade, or very rarely do.  But every so often something so completely ridiculous is said that I can not help but put my two cents in on it.

Someone said "Sorry, that wipe was my fault is something no wow player has ever said".  My immediate response, to myself only of course, was yeah, no bad player has ever said that.  Good players would admit their error.  I did not say it right away in trade because I was going to let it slide, until other people started talking about it.  A few saying "I've said that" and others saying things like "Only people that want to get kicked admit they screwed up".  After a few minutes I decided to chime in.

"Good players admit their errors because that is what makes them good players.  They recognize what they did wrong and make sure they do not do it again. "  I then added "Any half competent raid leader would know who wiped the group anyway if it is something that one person did to kill everyone.  I'd sooner kick you for not admitting it than I would for you owning up to your mistake."

I was ready for some back lash, because of course people would take what I said as elitist, even if I do not believe it to be so.  Oddly, to my surprise, it seemed like it enticed a lot of people to stand up and speak that I do not normally see posting in trade.  All of them completely backing me.

Of course, there were a few that immediately called me names, said "apparently you have never raided before" and said "what does a level 92 know about raiding" because I was on an alt at the time I said that, and of course, it is impossible for someone on a level 92 to have 100s that are raiding, or have raided last expansion right?  So I have no frame of reference apparently because a level 92 can't know anything about raiding.  Or at least that was what a few of the attackers said.

I am glad to say that I won, hands down.  A few trolls took shots at me because of my level, saying I must have never raided, or called me an elitist.  Isn't that kind of cool?  I am an elitist raider that never raided.  I wonder how that works exactly, maybe someone can explain it to me.

Most people however agreed with me.  We beat down the attackers, or should I say, they did.  I did not say too much, but boy oh boy did the people that I normally do not see talking in chat go to my defense the first time someone called my statement false.

When it ended I left one more post before I switched characters which was simple.  "I guess after that conversation we know who the good raiders are."  And I actually meant it.  You can tell just from that one line who the good raiders are, or at least the raiders that try to be good.  Because in the end I really do believe that good raiders will admit their failures because they noticed what they did wrong and want to correct it.  So they either say they know what they did and will not do it again or ask what they did wrong so they can try not to do it again.  I personally love when my raiders do that.  It means they are learning or at the very least, they are trying to.

The other week we were on a boss and had a new raider with us.  He was all types of trouble from the get go.  I think he was high or drunk or something.  We downed the first three bosses no problem even if it seemed like he had no clue what he was doing.  He was annoying on voice chat, he was questioning everything I said, but not in a good way, in a stupid way like "let the monk do that" when we did not even have a monk in the group.  He was just a waste of space.  I was going to kick him, he was really pushing every button.  But we are a casual raid team and I give a little bit of a leash before I show someone the door.  Not to mention, this was normal night.  This is the place to gear up alts, mains looking for that one piece, and to see what potential raiders we can find when we do it.  It was not like it was progression or anything, so I had a long leash on people so to speak.

When we got to the forth boss, Tectus in this case.  As we were clearing trash I said everyone out of the center.  He did not listen.  He stood there and when the boss spawned we were engaged in battle instantly and of course wiped because no one was ready for it and a few people were AFK while we were clearing the trash anyway. Did he say he was sorry? No, he did not.  Did he admit it was his fault?  No, he did not.  He even went so far as saying it was not his fault.

I had my hand on the kick button, but figured I would give him one more try, one real attempt.  We had not wiped on any fight yet and wipes happen, sometimes to stupidity on our parts, we are all human right?  I've done the same thing before in the past accidentally.  I admitted it of course, but we all have done it.

We get ready for a real pull and the fight started and he gets the barrage on him and precedes to run through the group with it either killing or greatly injuring half the raid.  Needless to say we wiped.

When we came back I asked him if he understood the mechanic as I explained it before the fight.  He said yes.  I then asked him, why did you not run right like was the plan, away from people, instead of running through the group and killing us all.  He said, I didn't do that.  I kicked him instantly.  Did not even ask another question.

He whispered me saying, that is fine, you are never going to get it down any way.  I replied, if I let you stay in the group you would be right, we would never get it down with you running the barrage through the raid.  That is why you are not in the group, so we can get it down.  When you learn how to listen to instructions, follow mechanics, own up to your mistakes, and not show up to raid high off your ass maybe I will invite you to another raid again.  But until then, you are on my never invite again list.

Moral of the story here is that I was willing to put up with a lot.  Had been doing or acting horrible all night.  I wanted to kick him many times and I let it go.  As a casual guild we know there will always be a few lesser skilled people around, it is par for the course.  I accept that.  But just because we are a causal guild, just because some of us might be lesser skilled, it does not mean we can not be good raiders, or at least try to be.  And owning up to your mistakes and then learning from them is very important.  If someone is lesser skilled and does that, as long as it is not hindering progression, I will continue to invite them but once you say, I didn't do it, when you obviously wiped the raid you will be shown the door because if you are not willing to own up to it and learn, I am not willing to wipe with you.  Rather simple actually.

With the patience I had shown it goes to prove that it is important to admit when you made a mistake, at least when raiding with me.  If even I would kick someone who doesn't admit errors and try to learn from it, that is big.  So as I said, only bad players won't admit their error.  This person was a bad player.  It was funny when he kept whispering me and got the DBM auto response that we downed it on the first attempt without him.  He said congrats.  Wonder how he felt now.  Was it worth not admitting his mistake?  He could have been there for that boss and the bosses after.  All he needed to do was say, sorry, this is new to me, I will try better next time.


  1. pffft...when I raided and pulled a boo-boo, I always said, "oops - my fault,. sorry, wont let it happen a gain!".

    Didn't keep me from getting booted, but hey, it's just a fucking game.


    1. That was probably a pug group and not a guild run. Guilds look for people that want to get better, and someone realizing their mistake is a good sign they are worth keeping around. Pugs look for instant success, and anyone that does not do perfect instantly, gets booted.

    2. no, it wasn't. it was a guild I belonged too. But that's ok, I /gquit anyway a few days later.

      So, that is what caused me to go out and make my own guild. True, I can't get a lot of the achievements that way, but there is no drama! LOL


    3. Sounds like a lot of elitist jerks. I have never kicked someone for making a mistake. For making the mistake over and over and not trying to get better and making no effort to learn, maybe. I just would not invite them again next time.

  2. Agreed: confessing your mistakes is a sign of maturity (no matter how old are you actually).

    There are 2 directions in which a raider can go wrong. First case: it's easy to do or not to do - like DON'T open the boxes of pandarian treasures if you're not a tank. DON'T nuke Nazgrim in his defensive stance. There's always a black sheep who does that throughout an encounter even if all chat and raid leader are yelling DON'T. Normally these guys cannot explain their actions when asked directly and are either trolls/assholes or just stupid. There was a shaman in my recent Molten Core who spammed aoe chain lightning and caused mobs to spawn and spawn - we devoted 10 minutes to cope with the pack cause he just didn't stop no matter what! These are to be kicked out immediately.

    Second, it's the guys who need some mastery for this very encounter. You can't just go and lead Thok correctly if it's your first times with the dinosaur. Even if you read the tactics, watched videos on youtube and everything, you need to die and try several times before it goes alright. The recent example is that dragon in UBRS. You know you mustn't stand in fire, but it's just everywhere, on the ground, in the air, and you don't see a shit where to run and you die.

    The problem is: there are raid members who don't see ANY difference between these 2 cases and provide an elitist attitude, even if it was only this toon who was dead, not the whole raid. It's like no one has a chance for mistake. At LFRs, after 1st wipe half of the raid tends to go berserk, say how everyone's lame and then leave the group to find another one - hopefully without "lame" players.

    People are just afraid to confirm their mistakes not to get their load of violent curses. Not everyone can let it go and stand the wave of insults, so they prefer to get silent hoping their mistakes won't be noticed. Sad, but they keep the habit with adequate raid groups as well.

    1. I agree, those people need to be kicked ASAP. We had a few of those nazgrim people and no matter how often we say something on voice chat or in game they just keep doing what they are doing. I am not sure why, they can never explain it. But I explain myself clearly when I boot them. If you are not going to follow the mechanics and listen to instruction, you are not going to raid with me.

      That dragon was annoying. When I first did it I think I got hit by almost everything even if I tried to avoid it. Second time less. By the third time I can almost never be hit by anything. That is a learning thing. That is something it is okay to fail on, because everyone needs to learn and as you said, it is hard to learn until you do it. It is rare someone will get it right the first time they ever see it.

      I really wonder if people think that it goes unnoticed because no one said anything about it. I notice everything and I am not even a very good raid leader. I might not talk to everyone about everything, but I do make mental notes and guess what, that person does not get invited back if they were tunneling naz. I have little to no patience for errors like that, but for avoiding the fire, I will let the people learn. We all need to learn. But for people to think if they do not say anything no one will notice, they are only fooling themselves.