Thursday, July 11, 2013

From A Joke Comes a Post: The Argument Against Pures

Yesterday I made a post that was intended to be humorous but it seems like almost everyone completely missed the joke and took it as if I was trying to kick their cat or something.  It did however give me a great idea for another post because many of the people bought up some good things in the comments.

Before I begin I will explain where this all began.

Reading the forums I came across this warrior crying about the long wait times in the looking for raid queue.  He was posting actively in the thread and many people suggested that he consider tanking for the faster queue.  He refused to accept that tanking was even an option but never gave a reason why it wasn't.  If he would have just said he did not like tanking the LFR alone the people might have left him alone but he didn't and he started to get rude to the people that suggested he should.

Then the exchange that inspired the joke came about.  Someone posted, apparently after viewing his profile, that he should just go as tank and choose arms as his gear specialization because he has a tank spec and tank gear and he logged out in it so there is no denying it.  It would make it faster for him so he could stop complaining.  To which his reply, instead of explaining why he did not want to tank, was to insult the person and complain even more because there is no reason he should ever need to wait in queue like this.  The poster just replied, If you don't want to wait just go as tank you selfish bastard and stop bitching.

So I wrote the post I wrote with this image of the warrior raging, blood rushing to his head as his face turned red and him pounding his fists on his desk screaming that he has to wait so long, when a pop up appeared in game that said "if you signed up a tank you would already be in" and then his head exploded.  I admit, I thought that was quite funny and every time I see someone that can tank or heal complaining about queue times I think the same thing.

Hey, I queue on my tanks as DPS and I never complain, because I made that choice.

So the post was made with the idea that with lots of pop ups along those line would make nerd rager like him go into a tizzy and I took a great deal of joy in that and found it quite funny.  I thought others would as well but it did not turn out as expected.  But that is not a bad thing at all because it did give me ideas for many posts thanks to the comments.

Should people that can tank or heal be forced to do so?

Do people have the right to complain when they have the fix in their own hands?

Who is really selfish the one who can tank but refuses to or the one that can't tank but won't reroll?

Why do I queue for the LFR as a damage dealer on my tank but I don't mind healing?

Are single focus classes a thing of the past?

The first post I am stripping from that would be the idea that the single focus class concept needs to go.  The argument against pure specs.

It is a known fact that tanks and healers are always in need.  I have always said that if you want to actually "play" the game you need to roll a tank or a healer.  Just one peek at the forums, trade chat, recruitment macros, open raid, etc, you will see that tanks and healers are usually needed more than anything else, thus playing one would mean getting an invite to anything becomes easier when you are capable of filling one of those roles.  I've even gotten invites as a healer on characters I do not have gear for it because I can heal, based on spec, and they do not care if I have no or little gear to do so.  Yes, sometimes they are in that much demand.

While I do happen to know a few players that rolled a pure because they did not want to tank or heal and they knew if they were a pure they could never be asked to do so I do not believe that is the overwhelming reason some people play pures.  I doubt most people say I am a hunter just so I don't have to tank.

I know I am a hunter because I love being one.  Hunters are awesome, why would anyone not love being one?  But that is another story.  I have tanks and I have healers and often I end up being on one of those for my guild raids because we are in need of one of them.  So like it or not, if I want my guild to run, I have to play an alt.  It has been that way for two expansion now.  I rarely get to play my main because I have to do what I have to do.

Yet some people would still call me selfish for playing a hunter as a main.  Why?  I would tank on my hunter if I could.  I would heal on my hunter if I could.  The game just does not give me that option.  I would love, and love is an extreme understatement, love to tank on my hunter and not need to switch to one of my tanks.  I would have a lot more personal progression this expansion if I could tank with my hunter, that is for sure.  The being pigeon holed into one role needs to end.

In this era where there is such a huge demand for those roles, tanks more so lately, wouldn't it be a good idea for the pures to have the same options that everyone else in the game does?  Isn't it unfair that the warrior I mentioned can be a fully geared tank and still select to queue as the DPS role and complain when he has options and I don't?

The pure classes do not do more damage, like they should, just for being a pure.  They bring less utility to a team should the team need people to switch around roles because they can't.  They single role classes are just outdated and they need to be updated.

Making hunters and rogues into tanks would not be hard at all.  For rogues you just go dodge tank like you would with the other leather wearing tanks.  Hunters have options.  They could go dodge tanks with melee abilities and an agility polearm or staff or they could go pet tanks with respective changes that allow their pet to me more tank like in that spec.  It would also bring an added aspect to the game as the hunter tank would or could also be the main healer for their tank bringing a different little taste to the game.

A warlock could easily slide into the tank or healer role.  I would prefer the tank option because turning hunters into a tank spec would give the game its first mail wearing tank and turning warlocks into a tank would give us the first cloth tank.  Warlocks could use their pet to tank, like the hunter model, or they could transform into a demon and tank like that which, admit it, would be pretty damn cool.

Warlocks could also bring an interesting healing spec to the game.  Magic is magic and even their dark magics can be used for good and it could be used differently depending on which minion they have out.  A minion that will duplicate their heals as splash heals for AoE, another that would duplicate their heals as smart heals, another that would duplicate their heals on the target they are healing, you name it, each minion could bring something else to their heals and make choosing which one you have out a show of how smart the healer is or which role he is currently filling as far as healing goes.

Mages make the most sense to become healers because if shaman can heal with water why can't mages heal with ice because after all ice is only water that has been frozen.  Of course you are not going to hit people in the head with ice cubes because while that would look quite funny it would cause more injury, but you get the drift.  It would not be a far stretch to think of mages as being able to heal with water.  They can heal their elemental with their spells so the idea of a mage healing something is not completely out of the question.

If the pure roles are not going to be substantially better at filling the one and only role they can fill then they should be given options just like all other classes have.  The option to switch should their raid need it.  The option to get the quicker queue in the LF* system should they want to.

If all damage dealers are created equal, which seems to be the design concept they are aiming at, then the days of a pure damage dealer should end.  If the pure damage dealer could do more, much more than the hybrid damage dealer it might make sense that they exist as pure classes but that is not the case.

With the great need for tanks most of the time and the need for healers being right behind them having three classes (rogue, hunter and warlock) added to the tank mix and one class (mage) added to the healing mix, it could very well solve a few of the issues with the queue times.

Just like that warrior had a choice to roll as a tank because he had the spec and the gear to do so and did not, all classes should have that option.  If I could tank on my hunter I would, quick queue for random content and I would get to stay on my main and gear up my main for the real raid.  I see nothing wrong with it what so ever.

The time for a 4th spec for four classes has come.  The pures should no longer be pure.  The game has changed and the classes should change with it.  The days of the pure are over.

Which leaves me with three questions for you.

1) If the pures could fill the role of the tank or healer would you use that option?

2) Do you think that it would help with the LF systems overwhelming need for tanks and healers?

3) Over all do you think it would be good for the game?

My answers:

1) Yes, in random content, I would surely tank on my main, a hunter.  I might not on my alts, the lock and rogue, but they are alts so waiting is no biggie for me.  The mage healer I would heal on for the faster queue because I have never really minded healing random content.  The only character I would ever feel the need to do it on is my main because it is my main and I would want to get things done and gear up as fast as possible and if being a tank would accomplish that I would do it.

Yes, in raid content.  I am usually tanking this expansion and mostly last expansion too.  I would prefer to be on my main getting the kills and gear for my main and if I could be on my hunter in the raid instead of one of my tank I would do so in a heartbeat without even thinking for a second.

2)  I believe it could help.  I am sure there are many like me that if they could fill one of the roles on their main they would, just to make things faster for themselves.  So we would see more tanks and more healers because of it.  I am sure of it.  Perhaps not huge amounts more but enough more that it would be noticeable.

3) Absolutely.  Being there is no bonus to being a pure the whole concept of being pure makes no sense any longer.  I think it would be great for the game in many ways to allow people to play more than just one role and having four classes with zero options is an outdated idea that would be best changed.


  1. You are an exception. You've said that a few times yourself. You are willing to do things that others aren't. I do wonder however whether you would love your hunter so much if it was a tank. I mean I have no idea obviously how exactly they would change the class so it could tank, but no doubt it would play differently. I don't know what it is that you love about hunters, so I don't know whether the changes they would make so it could tank, would remove what you liked about it.

    You tank and heal and obviously like or don't mind doing so. Tanking and healing are very different roles. People pick specs that they like to play. Well the difference between roles is several orders of magnitude bigger than the difference between specs. Changes are if someone would like to tank then they would have picked one of the 5 options in the game to do so, same with healing. The fact that they haven't means they don't like the playstyle of that role, so whatever spec it is, it all works out the same.

    I don't believe that adding more tanking/healing options or specs would increase the numbers in those roles. You might get people trying them out, but I think the base population would stay the same.

    I think the core of your argument of adding a 4th spec is so that people could tank/heal and still collect gear for their main. Well then your suggestion a post or 2 ago about BoA gear would fit nicely here. By all means let someone play their second choice, and tank/heal rather than dps should they be willing to do so, and still allow them to get the dps gear. I don't think overburdening the system with a ton more specs to balance and optimize would really help.

    You say that pures should have the option to switch to get a better queue time. What I argued yesterday and what I guess I'm arguing today is that if people liked the playstyle of the alternate role they would do so anyway. The last stumbling block to them doing so is gear, so blizz should fix that, and then we're all equal on options. However, if they don't like the playstyle then whether they have the 'option' to switch or not is irrelevant. That only leaves the gear motivator which could be alleviated by making gear Bind on Account, or perhaps being able to link 2 classes together or something. I'm a hunter, I'm a priest. You only level once and get 2 for your buck, the new proving grounds would have to be completed before you could use the second class.

    As for "The pure classes do not do more damage, like they should, just for being a pure." why should they do more damage? Yes hybrids bring certain utility to the table but so do pure classes. Warlocks for instance are in high demand, health stones, portals, summoning wardrobes. I love it when we have a warlock in the raid. Rogues, they have their moments, they have been damn essential soakers on lots of bosses thanks to their evasion/fade thing that they do. Hunters, I love our hunter, they can bring whatever buff we miss, they can pop hero, they can trap things, they can well I don't need to tell you how awesome hunters can be. Mages, their blink is awesome for dealing with lots of abilities, they have decurse. Really I don't see that 'pures' have any less utility. I can think of more occasions where I've called upon a pure to do something than a hybrid. All classes bring something good to the table.

    Yes the queue system sucks, but if people don't want to tank/heal then no amount of extra options for them to so will get them to change their mind. You are an exception, most people want to spend their playtime playing what they want. Queues need to be fixed some other way. No-one whether they want to play dps or not should have to sit in a really long queue in order to do so. They need to change the system. Make more scenario system content, bring in NPC's to make up the deficit, don't punish players for wanting to play the game on their favourite class.

    1. I would rather like to believe that I am not the exception. Everyone should do what they need to do for the betterment of the group. But it does go both ways.

      If I were serious about playing on my hunter I could just as easily go to another guild that would allow me to do so. Many choose that route it would seem.

      You bring a valid point. Would I still love my hunter if it tanked? I would have to believe yes. Reason being is that I would still be a ranged DPS first and foremost and if I were forced into tanking for the betterment of the group I would at least still get to be on my main. So I think I would still like it as much as I do, perhaps even more because I would not be forced to switch.

      It is sad that every single raid for the past 3 or 4 years my tanks have cleared it before my hunter. I think the last raid my hunter did before a tank was ulduar and that is only because back then my hunter was my only max level character.

      BoA gear would actually be the best option over all, I agree. But I believe that a forth spec would be more likely before the BoA drops would be based on blizzards track record on things.

      Why should they do more damage? Well, that goes back to my opinion on them not having options. While someone else can bring something else to the raid as being a tank or healer, if need be, the damage dealer can only deal damage.

      Whether someone "like" to tank or heal is completely irrelevant. They can tank or heal and that is all that matters. A pure can not. So being they do not bring that option to the table they should bring increased damage to the table. It is the old hybrid tax and I believe it should return.

      Again, opinion only in that matter and I will admit my opinion is tainted because I do not, have not, and never will main spec a damage dealer role on a class that can tank or heal. It if can tank or heal it tanks or heals. If I want to play a damage dealer I roll a mage, hunter, rogue or warlock. That is how it should be.

      You say that no amount of options will change things, but in the end if it does or doesn't, what is so bad about offering that option to people like myself that would gladly tank on my main?

      Would it really hurt the game to have more options, real options?

    2. Sorry, but you are the exception. The rule is that tanking and healing require a certain mind set in order to enjoy those jobs. Most players don't have it. They hate it and will avoid it at all costs. A few will do one of those things for the right rewards or shorter queue times, however, the majority simply will not.

      That was the great discovery behind Death Knights. Blizzard created them to be the most flexibly specced, easiest to gear, over-powered tanks in the game. People still used them damage. Most tried tanking, but gave up on it shortly into the expansion. No matter how easy/convenient you make it; most players won't tank. I can't imagine it would be much better with healers. Fistweaving monks seem like a good try at getting damage dealers to consider a healer. That the playstyle is being phased out makes me think it was hard to balance and not popular enough (with people that didn't normally play healers) to keep around.

      Options are nice. But every new option takes development time and balancing. If having the option isn't going to bring in that many new players to the role then is it worth the man-hours to create?

      On a more comical (perhaps) note...
      I've always seen hunters as more a healer than a tank if new roles were ever implemented. Like they could have a special sprite darter pet that damaged opponents and had the damage converted into group healing. The hunter would run around feeding gathered wild herbs to allies and bandaging their wounds. Leaving little medicine bowl "traps" on the ground for AoE healing.

    3. It is really sad that people would not be willing to try different things but I guess I can understand it.

      I would rather be on my hunter. I do enjoy that more than I do tanking or healing but I do find tanking and healing rewarding as well and sometimes just as enjoyable. Even more so in raiding. If we are missing a tank and I play the role of the tank and we down something it is a hell of a lot more exciting then just not raiding that night or looking for a pug that could be hit or miss.

      I am surprised that there would be so many in game that would rather blame someone else for not being able to get the team running that night instead of taking it into their own hands so they can run. I guess if that is the case, looking back at last post, then most players are really the selfish bastards.

      In random content however I can see people being more likely to be what they want to be. It is just a matter of waiting and if you are willing to wait why change.

      That would be an interesting healing idea. Can't forget the healing arrows, shooting your friends with arrow with a healing salve on it.

  2. I'm indifferent on this one. I don't mind pures, I don't mind hybrids. I don't think all pures should become hybrids but it wouldn't change my gameplay much if they did.

    There's a freedom to playing a pure. With a hybrid, even when you're well geared, there are always alt specs to consider... on my monk when running LFR, I'll switch between loot specs from boss to boss based on whether I need anything for MS or not... and too often forget to switch back to MS for the bosses that do have MS upgrades.

    On my hunter? No such issues... either the boss has loot for me or he doesn't. I don't have to worry about keeping a second spec geared while also trying to keep my main spec as geared as possible. If an LFR boss has 4 possible pieces of loot for each of your two specs but 1 is an upgrade for main spec (so, 3 would be vendored) but all 4 are upgrades for off spec, would it make more sense to go for off-spec loot since, if loot does actually drop, it'll be useful? Every piece of duplicate main spec loot is wasted off-spec opportunity.

    First world problem? Sure... and I'm guessing a lot of folks are reading that and not even understanding the issue but it's stuff I think about when I'm running current content, especially ones with very random loot like LFR.

    Plus, there's the subtle pressure to run as a tank or healer when you're on a toon that can do it. One guy I know who runs in a normal raid, a dps warrior, soaks up off-spec tank gear that drops that nobody else needs but won't tank in progression content, he only tanks fun runs or when soloing/questing. If he has to tank in his normal run, he'll bring in an alt who has less tank gear but is a main spec tank toon. He very much wants his warrior to be a dps only toon for progression content and I absolutely respect his opinion on the subject.

    In most respects I think hybrids have a general advantage but for sheer peace of mind, there's something to be said for running a pure. It's more simple. Before my monk, my previous 3 main raiding toons were my mage, hunter and rogue... so, yeah. My monk overcame my pure bias just by being so damned awesomely fun to play.

    1. There is a great deal more to consider when talking gear issues like you mention. I too would spend some serious time thinking "I only need one thing for my main spec and four for my offspec, maybe I should do it for offspec to increase my chances of getting something decent".

      You are right, many players would not understand that thought. But that is because many players just see loot as loot. That is why priests are always losing items with spirit to locks and mages, because loot is loot.

      In the end the problem is a gear issue. The reason my bear is a bear/cat is not because I want to play cat, it is because at least I can "fake" cat in my bear gear. My monk is only BrM/WW because they share gear and I love the class because the stat priority is almost exactly the same. My DK tank gears in all DPS gear and only uses tank tier pieces. That is why I like them all more than my plate tanks. Gearing is easier.

      They should make gearing easier and then people would gear for a tank or healing spec more often as different gear is not as needed with it.

      I DPS on my shaman in my healing gear, I can pull between 70K-80K which isn't half bad with an item level well under 500. But my gear is all healing gear and as such I am at 31% hit rating when I DPS. Ah, the lost stats are insane. lol It would be nicer if I did not need two sets, but as I am a healer first and foremost, I don't care. I used to be enhancement but recently switched to elemental for the gear reasons only. I miss enhancement, but I do not run the character enough to gear up 2 specs, at least not in this expansion, so I am suck with elemental.

      Sorry, think I went off on a tangent again. lol

      As such, yes, running a pure is much easier as there is a lot less to consider in gearing and no pressure to do another role.

      As a side note, I always used to have 2 sets of gear on my hunter. Just because my hunter can use the same gear there are different BiS based on spec and I had two sets of gear to reflect that. I don't right now because it is kind of hard to do when you do not run often and there seems to always be more gear to gear up your main spec with thanks to so many layers and valor upgrades. Sure, I am at the point that unless I get and upgrade I have nothing to spend valor on, but the raid tier is almost over. So maybe, just maybe I will start gearing up for my offspec hunter gear. Yes, there is such a thing as off spec hunter gear.

    2. Yep, I'm with you, whenever specs have some gear synergy that's usually how I try to run, too, with a dash of skill and preference included.

      And man, yeah, my priest has only been healing for a while now and geared up a lot since the last time he ran shadow... I had a chance to dps in a normal raid, did a quick flip to shadow to see how the stats shook out and had something like 37% hit. So despite that toon having better gear I took my mage instead since he'd most likely do actually higher dps. iLvl isn't everything, as we've both said, although that was the run where I learned that health pool matters... the extra 30-40K health my priest carries vs my mage might have saved 1 or 2 deaths. But anyway.

      Yeah, I used to carry multiple sets as well even on pure toons but you know what? Since reforging came in and loot acquisition became so random I stopped doing that without really realizing it. In the old days you could swap in a replacement piece of gear and be "better but not perfect" without anyone caring (or even knowing) but these days, if I'm not pretty damned optimal, it's going to bug me, I'll just see all that missing dps. If I swap in gear, I'd have to reforge (and maybe regem... and re-enchant) to fit it in. It's just not worth even carrying it*. So, for someone like my hunter or mage, whatever my main spec stat priorities are, that's what my off specs get as well unless I make a change in main spec. I might swap in something like a different trinket if there aren't any hit/exp implications but beyond that, my gear is my gear.

      I guess another major factor is that back before reforging I had 3 raid-geared toons... wasn't too hard to get multiple viable sets for them. Now that I have 10+, it's not the same thing. A slightly sub-optimal build for an off-spec isn't a priority when my damned warlock is still running a blue weapon at i482. Not that I'm bitter.

      * The only exception is tier vs non-tier, I'll keep a higher-iLvl piece to cover any slots that I'm running tier in or vice versa since they can become main spec optimal at some point.

    3. I think I have almost completely abandoned the "offspec" this expansion. Just too much work to gear them up.

      I never healed last expansion but my druid kept a complete healing spec. Never DPSed last expansion on my shaman after hitting 85 and switching to heals full time but my enhancement set was always up to date. Even my warrior, which was my main tank for a while last expansion had a full arms set. Everyone had multiple sets. Now, all characters have one. With the same exception as you said, tier stuff, I will keep higher level stuff for if I switch. That and trinkets too in the case of healers, but I currently do not have any.

      I think if they could work something out with gear it would really help things. Like why can I do elemental and do "okay" at it in healing gear but not enhancement? Even if not ideal I should still be able to do enhancement. All shaman should use intellect mail. Just like all paladins should use intellect plate no matter what spec they are.

      If all classes used the same "type" of gear and the plate tanks lost dodge and parry from gear and had mechanics added like druids and monks, gearing up for offspecs, whether that be the tank role or the damage dealer role, would be a lot easier. They should consider that.

  3. An all-hybrid "solution" would not fix the problem at all. This is not about access to a tanking/healing class, this is about what you choose to do with your play time, and how you choose to be obligated to total strangers on the internet. It really comes to this line in your post:

    I rarely get to play my main because I have to do what I have to do.

    You do that because you are a raid leader, and I assume someone prominent in your guild's structure. You feel like it's your responsibility to lead the raid, and that it would not happen without your sacrifice. The second part is likely accurate, but not the first.

    I've been there. I was main tank and GM for over 4+ years. I tanked ICC 10m a dozen times after I no longer felt like doing so. If I stopped, I felt like maybe the guild would disintegrate; that this precious thing I had built up would collapse, and none of us would hang out and have fun anymore. So I continued playing a "game" I grew to despise.

    That nonsense is why you don't see more tanks/healers. It's work. Even if you find the gameplay fun, you're still memorizing boss strategies and abilities on a level far beyond what's necessary for everyone else. To this day, I could practically tank Blood Furnace blindfolded. And don't get me started on Karazhan.

    Is it selfish for warriors to not tank? Are you kidding me? Those players are the only sane ones! The rest of us chumps load up ourselves with virtual chains of obligation to feel important in a way we lack IRL. Or maybe you derive pleasure from SimMiddleManagement, I dunno.

    Regardless, the chains aren't real. You can go exclusively play on your hunter main tomorrow, even in a raiding environment. If herding cats is more important to you than your own enjoyment, well, okay. But we cannot possibly expect that to the be norm, or chastise every player who looks over the unwritten obligations of those roles and rationally runs away.

    1. It does come down to the fact that I am willing to make the sacrifice for the guild but it is not like I dislike tanking or healing, just I like being a hunter more.

      As you said, I do it because I am the raid leader and I have too but it is not just me. I've had people make a healing spec when we needed a back up and they did so. I've had people switch from tanks to heals, heals to damage dealer, damage dealer to tank, etc. The people do this because they need to do this. It is how a group dynamic works.

      Not to mention the simple fact that some people are just better at some roles and I would like to believe that I can pick that out about them. Some years ago I converted a tank to a healer. They were always a solid tank but they are an exceptional healer. They had never once in their life healed before and never considered healing. People are indeed made for a role. At least I believe so. Perhaps a lot of the people that are so adamant against tanking or healing might actually be better off being a tank or a healer because they would do that job better.

      I hate being the raid leader. Never wanted to be the raid leader and if I ever were to move on I would not seek a position of raid leader. But even with that said, if I was just a rank and file raider and the raid leader said, we need a healer can you switch to your priest, I would do it. Or this fight is not friendly for hunters, can you jump on your mage, I would.

      It has nothing to do with anything other than doing what is best for the group. Anyone that would stick to one roll only and refuse to switch is being selfish.

      But, in random content, that is the beauty of it. Who gives a crap if you want to be selfish. You are the one that has to wait so you are making the decision to wait. As long as you are cool with that then all is fine.

      In the end it comes down to flexibility and having all classes having a little more flexibility could only be considered a good thing. The pure class offers no flexibility and they just do not fill a purpose in game any longer.

  4. I know this is obvious but I played with the MMO-C RaidComp calculator a little. All things considered, there is no reason to bring more than 1 pure in a 10man and that 1 pure should be a warlock because they bring so much additional utility. Also, if you bring 1 of each pure, you need to bring hybrids for all the other roles anyways.

    Another thing, why are there 3 ranged pures but only 1 melee pure?

    Anyway, back on topic.

    I've said this before, but I think:
    1. All classes should be hybrids.
    2. All specs for a class should use the same gear.

    If I could tank on my hunter, I would be much more likely to learn how, than on my DK. Why? My hunter is my main. I'm not an RP person but I still associate with my hunter. My hunter is me. My DK is really just an alt that I use for more professions and bag space, same with my other toons. My hunter is my only real character. If I could have much bigger bags and I could learn all the professions on one character, I wouldn't even have alts or at least I'd never level them. Add gearing to that, and sorry, not going to happen. Hence why I only have two 90s after 2/3 of the expansion.

    If you like playing other classes/leveling/gear grinding, then by all means do so. Having each class as a hybrid or getting rid of the need for offspec loot won't prevent you from doing those things.

    This is really what Blizzard should do with the next expansion. They're probably thinking to add a new class anyway, so instead of doing that. They should just add 4 new specs instead of 3 and make all the pures into hybrids.

    1. "All things considered, there is no reason to bring more than 1 pure in a 10man"

      Well, one thing to keep in mind is hybrids only have utility relative to pures if you need them to switch. In 10, you're going to have 2 tanks, 2 healers. That leaves one spot where having a dps with a healing off-spec would be handy. There's no utility to hybrids past that point- the remaining 5 slots can be filled with pures, hybrids, whatever.

      If you're short tanks and healers, yeah, you can slot in a hybrid in an off-spec. But that's just temporary until you can recruit more full-time tanks and healers.

      This is why Grumpy's idea of having pures do more dps than hybrids wouldn't help the game. If the hybrid tax has any bite, every one of those 5 slots goes to a pure dps. Four more go to full time tanks and healers. There's one spot for a healer/dps hybrid. Every raid will feature an "op" sporebat, though, so there's that. ;)

      For arms/fury warriors and unholy/frost dks the situation is really bad- they simply aren't needed at all except as main tanks and only ever dps in one-tank fights... and even if every raiding dps warrior and dk agreed to be full-time tanks, their literally isn't going to be enough tanking spots available!

    2. 3 ranged and one melee - because melees suck. Yep.
      Joke aside, most hybrids are melee dps. Who would want to stack a raid with melee? More than two melee in a group and it starts to get hard.
      Trust, me, I know, we had 4 melee at hc Dark Animus last week, aside from the one tank.

    3. @Jaeger

      I have a lot of alts because I actually do like leveling them. I also like questing. This makes me an odd person I guess when compared to most. However they were originally a means to an end. Profession alts if you will. I made them to support my hunter and I, like you, equate my hunter to be me. If I could do everything on my hunter I would not actually worry about gear on the others and they would return to just being there for the professions.

      @ Anon

      But with certain classes being OP for certain fights it would make sense to have a group of all hybrids before even considering a pure. So you always can mix and match to have the best tanks and best healers for any given fight.

      I would not be surprised if there weren't a lot of guilds out there that are like that.

      Right now my guild is looking for a tank with a DPS offsepc and a healer with a DPS offspec.

      We will not even consider someone that can now play a swing role. There is just no place for them in the game.

      I remember a fight, not sure which one, some years back where we used to have the paladin go from tanking to healing, the DK go from DPS to tanking and the priest go from healing to DPS. What is a hunter to do, just stand there and watch people switch specs because he can't do anything? Pure classes bring nothing to the table. The absolute least they should get is the hybrid tax put back in game so at least they will always bring more DPS.


      I have 1 melee in my 10 man group and 4 melee in my 25 man group. That is all we would ever need. More than that is a waste.

  5. I think you started being too serious about the comments to a not so serious post. At least my comment was supposed to also be on the joke side.

    My honest opinion on all of this... I wouldn't call anyone selfish for anything like choosing to play some spec or some role or some class. I should know what selfish is, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone more self-centered than I.

    First of all, no, people shouldn't do what is 'needed'. People fill in roles that aren't their preferred one for several reason. They might do it because they're just as good on all specs and they take pride in it so it's not all that bad. They might do it because they want a raid spot no matter what and they'd give up their MS for OS if it meant that that would get them through full heroic content. They might do it because the raid wouldn't happen otherwise and as such it feels like the right thing to do. More power to these people, but it's still a choice, not an obligation.
    People shouldn't have to do anything they don't want to do. This is why we keep complaining that we are forced to do dailies to raid. This is why we complain about WoW feeling like a job rather than a game. We compromise enough IRL, when we have to cover for our callled-in-sick colleague and do his job as well for a few days and so on.
    We don't /have/ to do anything in a game.

    In my last application I wrote a few things... "You may find it unusual in this day and age for one class to stick to a single spec. If I had 5 specs, I’d still have 5 pve tanking specs. I find both pleasure and comfort in making the best spec for every encounter. I also thoroughly enjoy tanking and have been doing it ever since I started playing – while some enjoy the versatility of a class, I enjoy making the best out of the spec I choose to play. [...] I tank. Tanking defines me."

    This was back when two tanking specs actually made sense. But. What I mean to say. I choose something. I like doing that something. Bot because I think I should tank and heal before anything else. Not because it's for some group's greater good. Not because I'd have a greater chance at raiding. It's because I love it. I enjoy it. When I picked my class I told to myself: I want to protect.

    What I do is what I offer to a group. I am a dedicated reliable tank. You want more or different or seek a different mentality? Then by all means, find someone else.

    You can paint me any colour of selfish that I only tank. Or only heal. Or only dps. It's a choice we have. This choice reflects when in relation to other people.
    If you're a pure dps, you may or may not be what a raid team needs. Same with healers. Same with tanks.
    But in a computer-driven setup, like LFR... should this matter? Should I be told to change my spec or class to benefit from LFR?

    I also think a tank shouldn't be a tank unless he loves tanking.

    1. To answer your questions now...
      1. Yes, I would. I tank. I'd have full tanks. Because I love the role.
      2. I don't know if it would help. At least some might discover they love tanking on some class and do it. Others may queue as whatever is faster and be willing to take any role. So yes, it probably would help.
      I can't say yes because I don't LFR, or it's rare when I do, so if people followed my mentality, things wouldn't change, but I know most people actually don't look at LFR as I do.
      3. Good for the game... Not sure. If the game was like that from the start... but now it's huge. A priest would complain they can't interrupt and they should. A mage would complain they can't solo a Warbringer. Should all classes have all options? Where would it end?
      TSW has this system where you can be whatever you want to be. And it's good. People still choose to be a certain role. Yet they can be something else if they so desire. But they still have to have xp maxed to choose other abilities. And they still need appropriate gear. So basically, it's same like having all maxed-out WoW chars and having to gear them up (more or less). The only difference is - same actual character. Like we have same account. It's a perspective thing.
      Would it benefit to have something like this? It's like saying, would the game benefit from allowing you to change your class as desired? Like say - not give you a tanking spec. But give you the option to turn druid and tank like that.
      Would it?
      I have no idea. But the game would change.

    2. It seemed like people were being serious so I responded in kind.

      I guess there is something to the pride in what you do idea. I do take great price in the fact I can switch to any of my characters and at the very least be decent enough on it that I am not hurting the team being on it. I take even greater pride that on some I can be better as an alt than most people in the game are on their mains. But pride is one of the sha. Ask Garrosh about that. ;)

      My warrior had always had 2 tanking specs. My priest had always had two disc healing specs. So I know what you mean. On those character that is what they were. Warriors tank and priest heal. And I wanted to make sure I did each the best I was capable of and having two specs made sense back then.

      I don't think anyone should be forced to change what they are for random people. Absolutely not. I do it for my guild because it benefits me and the team to do so. If I do it for randoms I am doing it for me only because I really do not give a crap about the team as I will never see these people again.

      But for someone that can tank to complain about DPS queue, I do take issue with that. If you do not like the wait then tank or shut the hell up. It is funny that these people will whine when the power to fix things is in their own hands. And that is selfish. To think because you get instant queue as a tank you should get instant queue as a DPS as well.

      Now that would be nice, if all my characters were as one. So when I am tanking I could still get the gear for my hunter. I would really like that.

      As far as how far would it go, that is really an interesting question. A mage can solo a warbringer. Okay, not me on my mage, but it can be done by an exceptionally good player. Some classes are just better at some things that others. That is the way it is and the way it has to be otherwise every class would be the same class. But having pure classes have additional specs would not be watering it down to the point where everyone was the same. But it would equal the playing field some. Everyone can play the role of a DPS but only a pure can only play a DPS.

  6. @Grumpy From reading your comments to some of the posts here I'm wondering if we have had a failure to communicate. When I said that people should be able to play what they want and not feel guilty for it. I only meant in reference to queue times for random content.

    If someone refuses to switch for a guild raid that is a completely different kettle of fish. If someone is capable of switching and we can't go unless they do, then they need to switch, it would be incredibly selfish and wrong if they did not in that instance. They are essentially preventing their friends from doing the activity they signed up to do together.

    I feel sorry for people that have to make this sacrifice, and play on something other than their preferred choice. Where possibly I ensure I'm the one making the sacrifice as I believe I can't ask someone to do something that I am unwilling to do myself. Though as I've always been tank or healer it's a rare day that I've had to switch. Makes me feel a touch guilty that but nothing I can do. I can't play more than one char in a raid. I did multibox to level some RAF but that was me just sticking follow on a couple of chars and then massacring stuff on a max level.

    For random content my point still stands though. People queue for random content to enjoy playing what they want to play. Right now it sucks to be dps as the queue times stink. That isn't the people that want to play dps fault, it's the fault of the system. I'm sure you would love to be able to play your hunter, when you get to play your hunter during whatever free time you get from your guild obligations, without stupid queue times. You should be able to do. You might enjoy tanking/healing but I'm sure there are times when you just want to pew pew and you shouldn't have to pay a penalty of queue time for that.

    I'm warming to my idea of LFG/LFR NPC's to make up the healer/tank deficit more and more. They need to equalise the queue system. Like sometimes on LFR, queue times are insane for tanks or healers. I did once wait in a queue for over an hour as a tank, my dps friend who queued after me got in a hell of a lot earlier than me. They need to equalise queue times.

    1. I think the conversation broke into two, random and assembled.

      I do agree that in random content you should never be forced to change. But in the same breath I still believe that if someone has the ability to fix their own issue, but being a tank or a healer, they have no right to complain about the wait time.

      A pure has no option for random content, they are stuck waiting and there is nothing they can do about it. A hybrid has an option, like it or not, so while they might not want to do it, they can. So they have no right to complain about waiting as a damage dealer because they made the choice to wait. That is what I am getting at personally.

      I've heard the NPC idea thrown around since the LF system started in wrath and I think it really is a decent idea that might need to be added at some point.

      I was doing some LFRs on my mage last night and around the 15 minute mark I almost left queue. I was bored off my ass, did not feel like questing or doing pet battles or anything else, I just wanted to do the LFR. For me, that 15 minute mark is when I lost interest. If it were not for the fact I was on vent talking with people I would have just left the queue and found something else to do.

      I ended up waiting 40 minutes in queue and the run only took 30. When you wait for a run longer than the run takes, there is a problem with the game.

    2. The NPC idea sounds good in theory, but creating AI for complex roles is not a simple thing. Blizz has been working on pet AI for years and it still sucks; especially in raid encounters. I don't see how they could make an AI to tank something like Lei Shen, etc.

      Blizzard needs to find a way so that more players "want" to tank. Therefore, they need to address the concerns related to why people don't tank.

      One of those concerns is this topic: Pure classes don't tank because they can't. Making them into hybrids would give more players the opportunity to tank or heal.

      It won't fix the problem by itself (no one change can do that), but it's a step in the right direction. There would still be many more steps to take though.

    3. NPCs are hard because they will always either be OP or weak. It is hard to design an AI like you mention.

      One of the games I am currently playing in early alpha is having some issues because the NPCs are just too smart which means it makes the game really hard if you happen to run into those ones. It is a delicate balance.

      I think vengeance was an attempt to get people to want to tank. It allowed them to do more DPS while tanking. They thought that would be enough.

      As much as people would hate it, I think making tanking super easy, like you would actively have to try to die to do badly, and let them do DPS type numbers to some extent, might get more people to try to do it or want to do it.

      At the very least increasing the passive avoidance so they take less damage and easing out spike damage might help. A lot of the complaints I hear from tanks is that they feel survivability to not be enough. I think that is one of the reasons warriors are quitting. We had a few warrior tanks in guild, all quit this expansion and two of us, myself and the other main tank, both have our warrior basically untouched, because of that very reason.

      Adding more classes that could tank could, just could, increase the pool of player that could at least try to.

  7. For shame. I actually liked the first post (as a warlock, how couldn't I). It comes down to the roles and who can fill them. If a group needs a tank, a healer, and some DPS, DPS will always be bottnenecked behind having a tank and a healer. Blizzard bribes player s in multiple ways to play those roles (Shorter queue times, scaling buffs depending on how many random schmucks you get, bribe bags). Pure roles are left holding the short end of the stick. We're always competing against players who potentially could queue as a more desireable role, but elect not to. Frankly I'd love to see the Greedy role come into beeing, but only if blizzard detects that you have a spec for that role, and have enough gear to stand a chance at the role.

    1. That would be the key. If you have a druid with a balance and feral spec they should not be penalized. But for someone that has a tank or a healer spec and is completely geared for it, there should be.

      I queue as DPS on my tanks but that is because I do not like tanking for random people. It is a choice, and if I have to wait longer because of that choice, so be it. Because I also have the choice to take the instant queue as a tank, which is what I am main speced and geared for.