Wednesday, July 10, 2013

A Solution to the LF Queue Times

This is a tongue in cheek post and not meant to be taken seriously... or is it?

I think I have finally found the ultimate solution to the looking for systems queue issues.  The forth role selection.

When you enter the queue for any looking for content you are given a prompt that ask you to confirm your role.  The three options we are given are that of the tank, the healer and the damage dealer just like a pure damage dealer can not choose the tank or healer option.  One more should be added and called the selfish bastard.

From this moment on the hybrid classes can no longer choose damage dealer as an option.  They can now only choose between tank (if their class allows), healer (if their class allows) and selfish bastard (if they want to steal the damage dealer role from someone that does not have any other options).

How the system would work is just like it does now, it would fill a group with tanks, healers and damage dealers.  The only time it would ever choose anyone from the selfish bastards sign up would be if there are currently no mages, rogues, hunters or warlocks in queue.  As those are the classes that have no options they would always be put to the front of the line over the classes that have choices.

In time the selfish bastards would realize that they are the reason there are long queues for the LF systems.  And the system would let them know that every step of the way with pop up messages. "If you where a tank you would be entering now.", "If you were a healer you would be entering now."  Things like that.

When you sign up under the selfish bastard option you will be told exactly how many people that could have been you that had finished the instance while you sat waiting.  "Your dungeon is ready, 17 tanks have queued up and finished this dungeon already before you even entered.  One of them could have been you if you had chosen not to be a selfish bastard."

Throughout the entire process that a selfish bastard is in queue they will be notified in chat of everything a tank or healer wins, as it applies to what they could have been.  "A tank has won [xxxxx]", "A healer has won [xxxxx]".  With the vast number of people using the system that will mean their screen with forever be filled with "someone else wins something".  This notification can not be turned off.  The selfish bastard can just ignore the chat panel if they like, but it will still be there.

Would this actually be a solution?  Who knows, but a guilt trip could be fun to think about and the idea that there would be someone on the other end of the monitor screaming at the screen after seeing dozens, if not hundreds, of messages that tanks and healers have just won something and they just won gold, again, is priceless.

A selfish bastards role selection is needed in the game and it would be the solution to the LF queue times issue.

Full disclosure:  I queue as DPS on my tanks too because I refuse to tank for randoms and I would still gladly be a selfish bastard and wait a little longer.  But most aren't as stubborn as me.  They would fold to the pressure of being called a selfish bastard in due time.

Please support the selfish bastard role check option.  The only people that should ever be allowed to select the role of a damage dealer are those that can only be damage dealers.


  1. Finally there is an advantage to be a pure. I remember something about a hybrid tax, but GC would rather pretend that he never mentioned the subject.

    There is of course a better solution. 10 Man LFR with only one slot given to the Tank, and 2 Healer positions.

    We can but dream.

    1. There are various solutions, most better than the selfish bastard one too, but I doubt we will ever see any of them. As far as they are concerned everything is fine. I do not agree.

  2. Wow I don't often vehemently disagree with you but this, this I disagree with completely.

    Yes hybrid classes can be tanks/healers and not just dps. However, just like someone rolled a rogue because they want to stab people, I'm sure there are many that roll a hybrid just wanting to dps. Take for example, there will be those who have this iconic image of a paladin smiting their foes. I mean Anduin Lothar, one of the paladin heroes in Warcraft wielded Ashkandi, a 2 handed sword. I know the statue of him has a shield so maybe he was dual specced but Ashkandi, big paladin lore weapon is dps.

    Each class plays a bit differently, otherwise there wouldn't be so many classes. If you just said pure dps classes could be dps, which is basically what you are saying, by saying that if hybrids queue as dps they are selfish bastards. There would be no melee plate dps, in fact the only melee option would be rogues. So if you wanted to be melee dps there would be no choice in playstyle. How miserable would that be? If you want to melee it's make with the stabby or nothing.

    People can choose hybrid characters purely because they want to dps, which makes that character for them just as dps bound as a warlock or a hunter, the other specs just don't exist for them. I don't see that as any different from choosing to roll a pure dps character. They have rolled as dps.

    The problem isn't selfish bastards who roll a hybrid character and dps. The problem is that more people like to dps than tank/heal. They are allowed to like what they like. So really what needs to be done is to either do away with the holy trinity, so every character is dps, or they need to make tanking/healing more attractive. There are those that like the playstyle but are put off by the community, all those dps that ninja pull and yell at the tank, stand in bad and scream at the healer. Others just don't like the playstyle, and they are perfectly entitled to that. Another option would be to have NPC's level the queue time by having them as tanks and healers to make up the deficit. Players do not exist to perform roles for other players. If people do not want to tank or heal, they do not have too and hybrid players should not be made to feel guilty for making the same choice that every single dps player makes.

    Now if this was intended as a funny post then I'm sorry I jumped down your throat. I'm a tank so I'm not protecting dps because I am one. I just really disagree with you.

    1. It was meant more tongue in cheek as I mentioned at the get go, however I must comment on what you said with one simple answer.

      A hybrid has an option, even if they do not like it the option remains, to speed up the queue system, a pure does not. If one person can make it better for everyone but doesn't, that makes them selfish.

      Simple as that.

      It is meant to be humorous because I hear it all the time on the forums, people complaining about the wait time when they could just as easily go tank or heals and help not only themselves but others.

      I would love to think that they are sitting at the computer waiting and smoke is coming out of their ears each time they see "a tank just entered an instance, that could have been you", "a tank just entered an instance, that could have been you", "a tank just entered an instance, that could have been you", over and over again.

      Just makes me think, hey, you have it in your power to fix it, you have no right to get upset.

  3. Heh. It'll never happen but it's at least a unique idea that could actually work to decrease queue times by encouraging hybrids to take one for the team. You'd also end up with even worse tanks and healers than you get now, though, which I'm not sure is worth a shorter queue, I'd rather quest/farm while in the queue than wipe.

    (@Taitrina - the original premise was that he's trying to decrease queue times while still ending with a viable role mix, it wasn't meant to be fair in any way... and he does mention in the first line that he isn't really serious)

    I'd actually consider some sort of back-end logic that prioritizes pure dps over hybrids... how would anyone actually find out that a pure might get a 10m queue while a hybrid might get 20m (or 30m and 40m)? The queue estimates and actual pop times are often so random it probably wouldn't even be possible to verify this.

    (I've had 39m queues pop within 5m recently and just had a 14m queue pop at over 40m while still showing a 14m estimate... maybe it happened because my 5m pop toon was a mage and my 40m pop toon was my monk? Hm...)

    The justification that if a hybrid wants a faster queue they can tank or heal is a reasonable one. Pures are legitimately stuck unless they want to run a different toon but with the latest changes, if a hybrid wants dps gear, they can tank or heal and still get dps gear. A pure running an alt can't do that (currently).

    But yeah, no way in hell something like this gets implemented, at least not in the in-your-face way you presented. Blizz has shown little interest in that type of teaching method, even though I suspect it would be useful in a lot of cases. A subtle behind-the-scenes shift in priority, though? That might be doable. And even as someone who primarily queues hybrids as dps only, I wouldn't object to it on principle.

    One other option... don't lump all dps together into one category. You have 2 tanks and 6 healers in LFR with 17 dps positions. What if that was split into 10 pure and 7 hybrid dps? Or 12 and 5? If there was ever a case where hybrids were waiting and no pures were, hybrids could fill the pure spots but not otherwise.

    They wouldn't do that either, of course. :)

    1. It would be funny to think of all the people sitting there waiting in queue curing at the screen every time it tells them someone won something and they keep winning nothing.

      Does it make me evil that I really laugh in real life just thinking about that.

      I had one that said 23 minutes be less than 1 minute this weekend, as DPS. But I have had ones that said 15 minutes and it was an hour and 20 minutes. Not sure their queue system isn't just guess work and making up numbers to begin with.

      I do agree that they could put the "buff" on pures to give them a faster time and most would never know the difference. So the hunter got in in 12 minutes while the ret paladin waited 18. The hunter would never even notice it was faster and the paladin would never even notice it was longer.

      In the your face part of it is what makes it so great. That is what makes the idea work, just knowing there is someone there with steam coming out of their ears as they got a message "a mage just entered the queue and has been placed ahead of you, you are current in queue for 48 minutes." ;)

  4. This comment has been removed by the author.

    1. Mr. Happy Elf sounds more like a porno name or something. I think I will keep away from that one. ;)

    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

  5. Maybe with a few other changes we can make this system work.

    -Only those that queue as a tank or healer can be raid leader.
    -Damage dealers are muted unless given permission to speak by their raid leader. Permission can only be requested and granted while out of combat.
    -Tanks and healers are the only players that can initiate or vote to kick a player from the raid.
    -Following every boss kill, damage dealers must kneel down to the tanks and healers in gratitude.

    This could work.

    1. Tanks and healers already have too much of a false sense of godlike power and a massive ego, no need to inflate it more.

      But as for a real change I would like to see that fits those.

      - Only a tank can pull a boss.

  6. @Grumpy @Anonymous

    I get it's tongue in cheek. However, I obviously didn't explain myself properly. You are saying that pures are stuck unless they want to play a different char. That hybrids have an option to speed up the queue system for themselves and others (even if they don't like it!) and that it's selfish that they do not. That hybrids can queue as tank/healer and get dps gear.

    Well if you look at it like that it's the pure dps that are the selfish ones. Aside from them levelling something else they can only dps and therefore can't do something else even if they want too. Tackling the gearing for dps while tank issue, what is the point of collecting gear for a spec you do not play? It's the act of playing dps that they want, not dps gear. If they can not play dps when they want to then they aren't playing the character they want to play.

    No I'm still not explaining it right. Imagine each spec is a different class so hybrid dps and pure dps are the same -just dps. That is it in a nutshell whether it's spec or class dps is dps. People that play a hybrid dps are making the same choice as a pure dps - to play a dps. Yes hybrids have the option to tank/heal should they ever wish to gear for it without having to re-level. That levelling is the only difference between dps.

    Anonymous actually said "take one for the team" saying that hybrid dps should tank/heal. Why should they be the ones that have to switch roles? It is a game, we all play it to have fun, people that play hybrids are as entitled to play what is fun for them as someone that picks a pure class. Really I see no distinction between them.

    Perhaps it would be better to say all dps are selfish bastards especially those that lock themselves out of ever 'taking one for the team'. Maybe all dps should be required to tank/heal a certain amount/percentage of encounters per week before they can dps. Either that or have your guilt message display for everyone, all dps contribute to the over large dps population. Just because hybrids could do something else doesn't mean they should. After all you don't want to stop playing dps do you? So why should they for your convenience?

    1. I am a pure as a main and I still have an alt to raid with just because we need a tank. I am the most unselfish person I know if we are using that as an example.

      If I were given an option to tank or heal on my hunter I would. I don't have that option so I don't. So, just because when I am on my hunter I can not do any of these does not make me selfish, it makes the game designed in a way that will not allow me to play any other way.

      If each spec was its own class, then you are talking something entirely different. Then if someone wanted to play ret that is all they would be and they would not have an option and thus there is nothing selfish about it. That however, is NOT the case. They do have options.

      "Why should they be the ones that have to switch roles?"

      Because they can. I can't. That is why. That is one of those questions that kind of answered itself.

      I would be happy with some sort of counter that works across characters, so if I tank or heal on the characters that can tank or heal when my pure entered the queue it got preferential treatment because it had no choice.

      Can't blame the pure for being pure. That is like blaming the sun for being bright. That is just how things are.

      If my hunter could tank or heal I would tank or heal on it just to cap quicker. Even if I do not tank the LFR on my alts I would on my hunter because my hunter is my main.

      Don't blame the pure for liking a class that blizzard decided to fuck over.

      Every character I have that can tank or heal is main spec to tank or heal. That is because that is the way the game is supposed to be.

      You are losing sight of the post idea however.

      Imagine if you will, some warrior on the forums screaming about the wait time when the power to change that is in his hands.

      That is what this post is meant for. Him.

    2. Yeah I wasn't calling you selfish I know you tank and heal a lot. You even raid on something other than your main instead of your main so you are definitely not selfish and I never said that.

      I think I perhaps took the subject a bit more seriously than you intended. I do find this interesting though I do think that we will never agree. I'm trying to ensure that isn't down to a failure to communicate on my part.

      It's a fundamental difference of opinion really. You say that a warrior dps moaning about queue times has the power to change it. I say he doesn't, no more than a hunter does. He chooses to play dps just as a hunter does. He is dps, the ability to change is not restricted to him. You say you'd tank on your hunter and I believe you. You have alts so this doesn't apply to you but to another pure dps the only barrier to switching is levelling. Switching specs, or switching classes, it's all the same, making someone play something they don't want to. That warrior dps doesn't want to play a tank, he just wants to be able to dps without twiddling his thumbs waiting for a long time. I don't think that's wrong.

      If you choose to play dps then with the way the system is queue times come with the territory. Fixing that is not within players capabilities. Players should not have to play, you should not have to play, a class/spec/role that you don't want to in order to make the system function.

      That is my point. I'm sorry if I took your funny topic and made it serious. I do agree queue times are an issue. They should change the system, not force players to do something less fun for them in order to make the system work. Anyway I won't go on any longer. I guess I just didn't find the joke funny. I felt sorry for them instead.

    3. We most likely will never agree because I am stubborn like that. I believe if you can tank or heal you should tank or heal. Not just for others but for yourself. It is more rewarding to play a tank or a healer in the sense that you get invited to groups faster, you get into queue faster, the game is just so friendly to tank and healers time wise that it amazes me more people do not want to take advantage of it.

      But I can understand it because like I said I queue as DPS on my tanks because I refuse to tank the LFR. But that has more to do with the people and me not being all that social. Most people are, so I do not know why they don't queue as a tank or a healer, just to make their own life easier.

      At least I would never complain about the wait time on my DK when I choose to queue as DPS because I know I have the power in my hands, the gear on my back, and the skill in my mind, to fix that by just entering as a tank. So I believe everyone that has that option has no right to ever complain about the wait time if they are not willing to do anything about it themselves.

      They can fix the queue, by guilt tripping the selfish bastards. ;)

      Just as a note.

      I have not queued as a damage dealer on my priest even once since it was introduced to the game.

      I have not queued as a damage dealer on my shaman since wrath (one time only in cata) because it heals.

      My monk, DK, warrior, paladin, and druid are all tank main spec and could tank with them, but you know why I don't.

      The thing is, if I want to pew pew that is what my mage, hunter, warlock and rogue are for. Otherwise I tank or heal.

      That is why I can not see why people will not do it. It is because I can not understand why someone would ever make a class that can tank or heal and not tank or heal on it.

      This is why the hybrid tax needs to be returned to the game.

    4. I get what you're saying, Tait, but my "take one for the team" comment was meant that they CAN, and can be ENCOURAGED to, not that they MUST. Nobody's forcing but the point is, 100% of healers and tanks who queue ARE hybrids, there are no pure tanks or healers in the game. Any one of them can make the choice to dps instead so how do you encourage them to tank or heal instead when those roles tend to take the most abuse? Do you hear more about a tank who accidentally (let's be optimistic) blasts a bunch of melee with a boss cleave or an AFK dps who has a healer on follow for the entire fight?

      Queue manipulation WOULD be a way to do that. It's a valid discussion point.

      Countless times over the years I've queued with one or two other people for a 5-man or LFR, seen a 25m queue time, and one of us will say "eh, screw this, I'm going to re-queue as a tank/healer". THAT'S what I mean by taking one for the team... you want to live with the 25m queue, no harm, no foul.

      If you have a warlock, mage and hunter in that same group, though, facing a 25m queue, what can THEY do to speed things up? Exactly zero.

      And sure, you can argue that someone who rolls a pure dps is selfish but I don't think any of us originally rolled a particular class so we wouldn't have to tank or heal. I DO know quite a few raiders who play pures as MAINS partially or entirely so they won't feel pressured to perform off-spec roles, though. Does that make them selfish? Probably to a degree and most would own up to it if asked if that was actually their motivation. Still, it's a valid life choice if their group permits it.

      (I also know another raid, one of the top ones on my server, for whom you either need a viable off spec or geared alt if you do have to fill in on another role... I think that's genius, personally, but would be tough to enforce if they weren't as accomplished as they are)

      Here's another scenario... my monk does about 130-140K in LFR and often does 15-20% of the group damage, especially Terrace these days (#5 dps doing sub-40K... /cry). That knocks a decent amount of time off the run for the entire group (say it saves 10 minutes... 25 people x 10 minutes = 250 minutes). That requires me to live through a longer queue, though. Instead, I could queue as a healer, saving myself 20m or so but I'm not a good healer on my monk... the run could end up taking 10m LONGER because I'm healing rather than dpsing, COSTING the group 250 minutes. In which scenario am I being selfish - dpsing and enduring a longer queue (and making everyone's queue just a wee bit longer) but speeding up the run significantly, or healing, getting a faster run myself, making everyone's queue pop just a wee bit sooner but making the run itself take longer?

      Grumpy was obviously kidding (mostly) and there's no way that will actually be implemented (not that we'd ever hear about, anyway) but I do think there's a valid discussion in there about what exactly constitutes selfish when it comes to running something like LFR where you don't know or care about anyone else in the group.

      And yeah, to follow on with what Grumpy's saying, I've started *generally* healing on any of my toons in LFR that are capable of healing and who aren't huge dps because it's generally group-neutral and saves me time... but I won't tank. There isn't enough gold in the game for me to tank LFR.

    5. As anon said, I am mostly kidding with the extreme nature of picking on people about it. But his theory that the queue can be manipulated with to make it work better is true.

      As he said, I did not role a hunter to avoid tanking or healing. I rolled a hunter because I wanted to be one. Heck, I did not even know about tanks and healers, just classes. I doubt most people that roll classes, at least at first, do it to avoid or even lean toward one role of the other. With the exception of melee or range. Part of why I liked the hunter design was it was ranged.

      Seems you are in the LFR anti-tank group that I am as well anon. One day I might just do it, to see, but that does just is not yet.

    6. I've been a tank since I started playing this game. It's been years. Only time I had a true offspec is pvp holy and that was way back in Wrath, when my OT partner wanted higher rating.
      I repeat, no one has ever asked me to go dps. Not once. It never even came up in years and years. Had MT stuck on me since my very first raid. Years. I had tank / tank spec, learned ins and outs of a ROLE, not a spec.

      However, when LFR was out, queues were long for tanks. For me it was: I want to do a dungeon now. Hey look, here's my dungeon. In 5 minutes I might change my mind. So >1 min queues were new to me and felt odd. I think I actually gave it as a reason at the start for not doing LFR: I have to waaait for ages. And my guildies said: just join as dps. But I don't have dps gear. Don't have dps weapon. Don't have dps spec. Just go on your tank and pretend to be a dps, they say. I say NO. No. It's not right. I am a tank. I chose to be a tank. I never have to be anything but a tank anywhere else. I leveled as tank, for crying out loud and still came up to be the first lvl 90 in my guild. I won't lie or pretend to be something I'm not. Would I be wrong? Did I not have the right to complain when the solution was 'in my hands'? Was really the solution: pretend you are something you are not? Something you didn't choose to be? Something you've never ever been in years and years of playing? Something you have never ever had to be?

    7. There is a slight difference between the situation you describe and the situation that inspired the post.

      If someone with a tank spec and tank gear chooses to queue as a DPS they have absolutely no right to complain about the queue time. The power is in their hands.

      It would be like telling me I had to heal on my paladin. While my paladin can heal, it is not an option. I do not have a heal spec, I do not have healing gear. I am a tank and have a retribution offspec that I use while wearing my tank gear. I only have one set of gear, tank gear.

      On all my tanks I only have one set of gear, my tank gear. My tanks tank, that is it. But I queue as a damage dealer for the LFR and I wait in line like everyone else and I do not complain because I have not right to complain.

    8. What I describe is similar in the way of choosing your role.

      I complained about long tank queues and people told me I should queue as dps to get short queues. Which I didn't feel was right. Since I'm a tank. I chose tank. I want to tank. Not to pretend I'm a dps.

      Same way, if I was dps all my life it's probably because I love dps-ing. And that's what I want to do. To tell me to go tank would be forcing me into a role that isn't me, pretending I'm something I'm not.

      By the way, I read your next post in which you explain the warrior had tank spec and tank gear, yet you didn't here. This is why it seems so clear to you that he DID have an option yet everyone wants to convince you otherwise ;)

    9. But the post has a lot more interesting responses here because I neglected to go into what inspired the post doesn't it?

      I still think the humor of the post works on its own in a way.

      I queue as DPS in my tank gear because I refuse to tank them alone. If there is a guild mate that wants to queue as a tank I would go as a tank.

      Oddly enough, I can do (depending on the tank) between 40K-100K DPS in my tank gear which is more than half the people on the lower end and more than most of the people on the higher end. So even if I am "faking" it I am still more than pulling my weight when compared to the others.

    10. I have one of every class but rogue. Why? Because I hate melee dps.

      Pretending to be a dps is not about whether or not I can do enough damage. It's about whether or not I want to do the role of a melee dps. Having tanked for so long it feels really odd when I have to follow the boss and not the other way around. So out of place even that the only ti9meI actually tried to melee dps (in Wrath, in Azjol- Nerub), I dropped halfway through the instance. It's a bad feeling, I disliked it completely.
      And the post was funny in itself as a joke. Just the comments were kind of serious.

    11. I hate melee too. The only person that should ever be that close to a mob is the tank in my opinion at least.

      I have a rogue however because I hate it. Not only because I want one of every class but because it presents a challenge for me on many levels. Playing in a style of play that I normally don't and trying to be good at it.

      I tend to have the same issue when doing melee. I always find myself in front of the mob and have to adjust myself. It just does not feel natural being behind it. And nothing is more frustrating as a melee than having tanks that do not know how to move or position things.

      One funny story about that was in an LFR I did. The tanks where playing ping pong with the boss, I was doing my damn best to keep up and then just got frustrated, turned around and found something bad on the ground and sat in it. That is the only time I have ever killed myself in random content and just didn't try. I just got so frustrated because I was trying, really trying, and the damn tanks would just not let me do my job. I sat there and watched the rest of the fight and said, this is why I hate melee.

  7. Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:

    Well...this is one subject on which I will never agree. And yea, I am even more stubborn than you, Grumpy.

    I hardly think I qualify as selfish in refusing to tank with my warrior, paladin, druid, monk, or DKs. Why? Because I am a lousy tank. It is not a lack of knowledge about what a tank is supposed to do. As a primary healer for as long as I was, I learned about everything a tank was going to do. Had to, so as to be able to know what type of healing I was going to be doing. Doesn't mean I am able to play a tank. Pretending otherwise to speed a que really would be selfish.

    Now as to not using my healing class potential and preferring to DPS, why if that makes me selfish, then I guess I am selfish. On the other hand, I can't begin to imagine the number of runs I healed on, not wanting to do it at all. No matter the fact I was good at healing, damn good, I didn't enjoy doing it. All I got was a bad case of stress instead of enjoyment.

    In my opinion, which is every bit as valid as yours, making the claim that I am selfish for wanting to enjoy the game as opposed to using my potential healers or tanks as such, well, that is a bit of a stretch. On the one hand, I am a lousy tank and on the other hand, I have healed till I have no desire to heal and won't heal anymore (won't play if it means I have to heal), so that doesn't leave a lot of other options, now does it.

    Now I know I don't do LFR or much of any group content anymore, so you really weren't directing your comments towards me, generally or specifically. But even so, I play hybrids more than pures, and can't help but note that selfish is queuing for something that you are not good at as opposed to doing the role you prefer to learn to do well.

    1. There is a difference between not being able to do something and not being willing to do something even when you are able.

      Example is me on my tanks. I queue as DPS, when I do so I am being selfish. I can tank, I just don't, and that makes me selfish. It also means I have no right to complain about queue time when I do so.

      The post was made more so in jest of those people that queue as DPS and complain that it takes so long when they have a tank or heals spec and just refuse to use it because they are being selfish.

    2. By this standard, anyone who dps's is selfish... I used to play a mage, but I gave up a dps main because our guild needs tanks, so now I play a bear druid. Anyone can do the same - levelling an alt in WoW is hardly rocket science. So if you're playing a pure, you're being selfish - go level a hybrid...
      In reality, everyone has the right to play the class/spec they want, the way they want - and take the consequences in queue times. If people were actually obliged to contribute to making queue times shorter, that would be selfish - but they're not.
      I'm surprised someone hasn't taken you to task for being selfish - wanting to play a hunter, and expecting others to tank/heal so you don't have to. I'm also not surprised that others react strongly to being told they're selfish bastards for wanting to do exactly what you're doing. So maybe your original idea should be modified to completely replace the "dps" option with a "selfish bastard" option - if you're a pure, you can only sign up as a "selfish bastard"...

    3. Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:

      Tank perspective:

      I have tanked before way back in the dark ages, on both my warrior and my pally. Zul Furrak in Tanaris was the last place the warrior tanked, and a 10 man raid on the Baron side of Stratholme was the last for the pally as an off-tank.

      I recognized that my best efforts at being a tank were likely to be mediocre or worse, so I gave up on that role. Now I did my job better as an off-tank than I did ever as a solo tank in a five man dungeon. But even my best job was hampered by visuals, the lag (really horrible lag at the time) and a general lack of comfort.

      Plus for the warrior, at that point in the game I simply could not ever get comfortable with him in a tanking role. My wife could tank, even with her weird 1.5 of everything vision (instead of seeing stereo she sees 1.5 of everything, sorta like a ghost screen on a tv where the images are slightly off). [Yes, I shudder every time I try to think of seeing the world as she does.]

      For my DK, I like the blood spec best anyway, so yea, I think I could learn to tank on him, given enough time and guild patience. But I would never be a high quality tank.

      The situational awareness up close in the cascade of colors simply won't ever let me be able to be a great tank. I simply don't see everything I should see as a tank, hence my desire to play the role is VERY limited.

      My monk and my druid don't wear plate, sorry, but having a really thick skin or being really nimble isn't a tank. Ain't no plate, ain't no tank. May be the end results look like tanking as far as keeping the mob's attention, but don't kid yourself. Monks and Druids don't tank like tanks tank, lol. I can't explain it any better than that, but I think you will understand. Note this prejudice is as strong for me, as your fetish about having a tank or heal spec if at all possible.

      All in all, me queuing for anything as a tank would be me taking advantage of the system to get faster times, without being able to do the job. Now that I would definitely call selfish.

      If someone can tank but doesn't want to tank, I can't call that selfish. There are always reasons as to why.

    4. Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:

      Healer's Perspective:

      I look at the healing side a bit differently. I have been a healer, first as a paladin, and then as Shadow Priest up to MgT. This led me into becoming a holy priest as a healer.

      I have done some raiding as a Disc healer, but I found it less effective than holy for me.

      Druid healing is another possibility but I have never practiced her healing ability much, so I am very much less than effective.

      Don't have a shaman yet, though I am working on one off to the side, so to speak.

      Monk healing looks weird, sorry no other way to say it. I am sure that if I worked with it, it would make much more sense, but like with the shaman, it isn't a class I can say I could heal on.

      Now for the paladin, who was my original main, he healed almost from day one. I took a short side trip into protection, but quickly realized I was a much better healer than an off-tank, That was some really slow leveling, though he was the third in the guild to hit the 60 level cap. I did a LOT of paladin healing.

      As the end of vanilla came along, I switch my main to my shadow priestess. She had hit 60 in about a month's worth of play, much quicker than the pally had. Fairly early on, I looked up the priest specs and went shadow for leveling.

      I healed everything in vanilla from the shadow spec, just not running in shadowform. That continued up to the release of Magister's Terrace. To continue healing, I would switch specs for 5 mans and then switch back to shadow after. I was a perfectly happy little mana battery near the top in 25 man DPS.

      That changed in the frozen north. So did the shadow priest class, and I didn't adapt to the change well.

      Another shadow priest had better numbers as shadow than I. So I took his healing spot and he took my DPS spot. I didn't want to make that decision, but I told our Guild Leader at the time, it was the right thing to do.

      And that was shortly before you joined us. For you, I was always a holy priest.

      For the holy pally, it was simply one overly long and horribly hard leveling session to hit cap. If there was a mistake to make, I made it. Usually two or three times. For now, my pally is a single spec character and that spec is Retribution. He is a god fearing holy smiter of evil with both hands clutched around a big ol' mace. And I like him that way.

      For my multitude of priests, I only use holy, but I think it was clear earlier that I went holy only to help out the team. Me being holy made us stronger as a raid unit. So yea, maybe I would be of greater utility to the overall game if I would just stick to healing, but I guess I am just to contrary to want what is best for others all the time. Not when it means the game becomes stressful to me.

      For me healing is much more stressful than tanking. As a healer, I expect to end every fight with all up at 100% health. Anything less, and I didn't do as much as I should have. Now realistically, I know how things go, and having everyone alive with the boss dead is about all I can truly hope for. But any deaths along the way, I failed. Should not occur on my watch. Sorry, but that is just how I view the job of healing. And that standard is stressful.

      I would be cheating the system signing up as heals. Not because I could not do the job, but because my heart would not be in it. That is no attitude to take into any group effort. If I go into a situation as a healer and don't care if I do the job as well as I can, then I am being selfish being there as a healer.

      If someone is able to be a healer, doesn't mean they want to be one, nor does it mean they can be any good at the job. So no, having a possible healing spec and refusing to que for that spec is not being greedy.

      Queuing for heals knowing full well that it was only done to get faster times on getting a run and not because the player actually wants to heal, now that would strike me as selfish.

    5. @ Anonymous from July 10, 2013 at 4:39 PM

      Go for it, try to take me to task, I dare you.

      My main is a hunter, I want to play a hunter, yet I have tanked and healed nearly every boss this last 2 expansions before my hunter ever even had a chance to see the boss.

      Go for it, you will lose and make a complete ass of yourself. I've sacrificed more of myself than anyone I have ever played with in game for the sake of the group. I do it because it needs to get done.

      As for your comment about playing a pure makes you selfish, that, as I said to another person, holds no water.

      People roll a class because they want to play that class. If the class is not capable of doing something that is the fault of design, not the fault of the player. They are not selfish for playing the class they play. Even more so for random content.

      Yes, anyone can reroll and have a tank or healer, for a guild. Not for random content.

      Your argument only holds water for progression or organized content. Someone that bitches because they can not run because they do not have a tank yet they have another 90 capable of doing it and refuse to switch is selfish. But when talking random content your argument is a joke. A paladin can go prot and still be on his main and gear up his main. A mage can not. You are under absolutely zero obligation to reroll for the LFR and if you think someone should, you are daft.

      And again I will say it, this was meant to be funny because of the people that have a tank spec but queue as DPS and then complain about the queue times. Don't like it, tank.

  8. Interesting that no one's mentioned what I see every week in my LFR runs. There is ALWAYS one person who queued as heals yet stays in DPS form, DPSing. Ya'll don't see that?

    1. Yeap, and I believe you should be allowed to report that person and that count as a mark on their account as griefing.

      You are doing someone on purpose to hinder the group and possible ruin the experience of others in the game. This is by definition griefing.

      Sure, if you have 5 even half way average healers it is not an issue, but when you queue for a role either play the role of get reported.

      I've reported people for it.

      I don't complain in raid, I just file a report.

  9. Haha, as a joke it's pretty funny. Even if this were to ever come to pass, it would affect me none at all, since I tank on all classes that can tank, I heal on all classes that can't tank but can heal and I dps just on pures. Oh wow, I'd never be a Selfish bastard, I feel so good about myself.

    But you know, you'd have to also modify Character Creation screen, when you pick your class. You should have "Hybrid" and "Selfish Bastard". You know, the selfish bastard that picks a rogue because he used to be a DK but hated it when people told him to tank. Or that Selfish Bastard who wanted to be Shadow Priest and is now a Lock because people kept making him go heals. Or that Selfish bastard hunter who keeps making hunter alts instead of doing something that would benefit the Community (the one that is totally worth it). I hate these people... /sarcasm off

    1. You do the same as me.

      I thank on all classes that can tank, druid, DK, warrior, paladin, monk and heal on all characters that can't tank but can heal, shaman and priest.

      If people understood the game before they picked a role, calling someone who picks a rogue would be fine to call them selfish. But not someone new. Someone new picks the class that interests them most.

      I did not pick a hunter because I did not want to tank or heal. Did not even know about the role idea. I picked a hunter because every game I ever play I play ranged in and because having a pet sounded like a good idea.

      I have 2 maxed hunters and 7 more between 80-85 that might get there. ;)

      If anything, the pures should not be pure any more. They NEED to add tank and healing specs to them, as capable.

  10. Sounds like a good idea for the most part. I play a couple of hybrid classes and if you ever saw me try to tank you would kick me back to damage. Have never tried to heal so don't know how that would go.

    1. We all need to learn somewhere.

      I would rather have a bad tank that is willing to learn than wait an extra 30 minutes.

      Me teaching you to tank while you are in there made my queue faster and 100s if not 1000s of queues in the future faster. Time well spent if you ask me.

      Yes, I would surely rather a bad tank that is willing to learn.