Tuesday, July 10, 2012

And Your Opinion is?

Reading the class balance feedback, the attunement argument, and some of the other hot topic stuff on the forums leads me to believe that nearly everyone in the game has no grasp at what an opinion is.

For example:

My opinion is that I have fond memories of attunements, such as the scholomance one when I first did it.  It was not exactly easy or quick but it was not that horribly bad either.  Same for the kara one.  I did like it, but having to drag other people around to get the key could also be annoying.  So I do like attunements but I also think they have their place.

I would like to see attuenments in the game for whatever is the current raid.  They should be ones people can do solo, so if someone doesn't have it you do not have to drag them to get it, if they want to raid with you they will make the effort on their own.  Once a raid is old, the attunement should be removed.  

I believe that to be a fairly decent opinion, but of course I am bias as it is mine, but I explained why I like attunements and how I would like to see it done.  But what happens on the forums if I were to post that there is something scary.

I would get called all sorts of names, idiot, moron, elitist, you name it.  All because I support the idea of attunements.  This is something that is horribly wrong with our community I believe.  Not the fact that people disagree with me, but the fact that they would rather assault me, or my opinion, instead of posting their opinion or starting a conversation about my opinion and why they disagree with it.  Name calling and personal attacks are just so much easier for the community we have.

Disagree with me if you wish, that is your right to do so, but no person is ever wrong, an idiot, or anything else based on their opinion of something.  Opinions can not be right or wrong, it is just a statement of how you feel about something.

There is something called an uninformed opinion, which you can inform the person with, but even if the opinion is uninformed, it is still not wrong.  It just did not have enough data for someone reading it to take the opinion with any weight.  Like if I were to write my opinion of hockey, a sport I do not play or watch or even like.  So if I were to say it is a bad sport that is my opinion, but my opinion would not mean as much as another persons that knows hockey well.  Both my opinion and the other persons opinion are correct, to us, because it is based on our own feelings about hockey.

Everyone on the forums seems to read every word written as if it were posted as fact and argue it as if someone is lying about the facts.

Like I am lying that I enjoyed the attunements the first time through.  I am lying that I think the new raids should have them only.  I am lying thinking that attunements should be done solo.

Excuse me?  How am I lying about what I believe I would like?

The community seems to have forgotten what an opinion is.

If someone says, I hate PvP, they get called a moron, a baby, a care bear, a whiner, a baddie, and all other things on the forums.  All because they stated their opinion, that they hate PvP.

The forum posters all seem to forget how to have a conversation.  They all seem to forget that opinions are not statements of facts, it is just statements of how someone feels about something.

If someone says they hate PvP you can reply, I like it, to each their own.  That would be fine.  You could also ask them why they hate it, that would be fine and even promote good conversation.  You could point out some good points about PvP because maybe they have such limited experience with it and that limited experience left a bad impression on them.  You can have a conversation about it or you can disagree with it.  But not our forum posters, no, not them. 

They will have to rip him apart because he said that.  Or those that agreed with him, will have to bolster him for saying it because he is right about hating it and everyone else is wrong.

Opinions are not right or wrong, they are opinions.

When did stating your opinion on something mean you were stating a fact?  When did stating your opinion on something become a personal attack on someone else?  When did stating your opinion make you a bad person?

The answer to all three should be never.

It seems, in my opinion, that the community has totally forgotten how to have a conversation.  They have forgotten to respect other peoples opinions.  They have forgotten how to intelligently try to sway someones opinion.  They just attack, attack, attack.

In my opinion, most people in our community, at least the ones that use the forums, don't even know what an opinion is.

And your opinion is?


  1. Yes and no.

    While I in general agree with your post, at times people do post things that are factually just not true.

    If for example someone says, 'everybody loves Raiding' , then we both know that this isn't factually true, not just an opinion.

    If for example someone says 'attunements kept people from seeing all the content' we're not talking about an opinion, that's factually true, too. It's just that the whole purpose of attunements IS to prevent people from seeing all the content 'too fast', so the first statement is stating the obvious and the discussion should have been : should people be prevented from seeing all the content 'too fast' (or is being bored faster more important? , one could add)

    (personally I consider attunement Quests themselves to be content and hence don't like to see existing ones go as I hate having content being removed, but that's another discussion)

    But I agree that the reactions to factually untrue statements in generally civilized posts could be more civilized, too, if someone makes a factual mistake he's not a 'retard', he made a mistake (and frankly I'd be surprised if certified retards would actually play WoW, it isn't exactly a safe environment for them)

    1. You bring the perfect thing here for me to use an an example.

      "If for example someone says 'attunements kept people from seeing all the content' we're not talking about an opinion, that's factually true, too."

      Nope, that is not true. It is an opinion.

      Attunements kept no one from seeing content, never has and never will. Everyone is capable of doing them so it does not keep anyone from doing it.

      If an attunement said it can not be done by hunters, then it would keep people that play hunters from doing it.

      As long as there are no restrictions to it, attunements never kept anyone from doing it. That is a fact.

      Goes to show you that even "facts" can be viewed as opinions depending on what side of the argument you are on.

      Fact is, attunements never kept anyone from doing something. That is not an opinion. It is like you said, they only kept players from consuming content too quickly.

      But what you said is so true, people are there arguing that it kept people from seeing content and stating it is if that was indeed a 100% true fact when it isn't.

      I can't help but laugh reading things like that sometimes.

      The only thing that kept people from raiding when there were atunements were not being able to find a group to do them, or laziness. That is my opinion. ;)

      But you could argue that is a fact too if you wanted to. :P

    2. It actually depends on how you define 'kept from seeing the content', what is meant by it.

      If, like I did, mean : attunements are there to keep people from seeing the content (right away), we both agree that that is true and I'd say it's factually (English?) true as gating is the main function of attunements.

      If we're talking 'permanently', we're into cause-effect theory: if someone is to lazy to do an attunement quest, what is the important hurdle, the attunement that causes the laziness to 'proc' (''Lazy people have the right to access the content, too!'') or the laziness ('he could see the content if he wasn't so lazy') . Either way, the end result is the same: the attunement kept the lazy at bay - which I would say isn't an entirely bad side-effect of attunements.

      So if we established that lazy people were kept at bay by attunements, and the likelyhood of there being people too lazy to do the attunement being quite large (not saying there are many or few, just that amongst all WoW subscibers there are people too lazy for attunements), I think it's pretty safe to conclude that it's a fact that there were lazy people that were kept away from the content by attunments. Probably for the best, but still kept at bay.

    3. Point taken.

      So yes, in that way, it did keep people from raiding.

      However I have to ask one question.

      Is it a bad thing to keep the lazy people out of the raids?

      I think it is a good thing.

      As a matter of fact, that will be my next post. Thanks for spurring the idea.

    4. Glad to be of service :)

      Yes, that is actually the core question.

      (just as a lot of the BoA mechanics etc. make you wonder wether it's a good thing to cater a MMORPG to people that don't really like to develop characters in the first place)

    5. I had an article I wrote a long time ago that addressed that exactly.

      The reason people like myself are not happy with things in warcraft has to due with the fact that warcraft is no longer being designed for me. It is trying to attract a whole new kind of player that doesn't like RPGs.

  2. I can't disagree with most of what was said but, when it comes to the people of the internet. Logic is thrown out the window, common sense, just forget about it. Its the sad truth of the internet, and its rare to find logic on the forums.

    But as for attunements, its not a matter of putting effect into raid, as its a hurdle for someone to get into the raiding content. If it was optional, sure I wouldnt mind, but I still feel they are too much of a relic of the old raiding.

    1. I did not mind them when they were "current" but going back and doing them could be a pain in the ass.

      Even old school ones were no biggie if you ask me. Doing the sholo one at level was hard, doing at max level was just a few minutes of wasted time. So no big deal in my opinion.

  3. Forums are often not seen by its members as an opinion board where everyone has a right to be listened to.

    Rather they are seen as an contest, where the loudest opinion wins. It is essentially a competitive environment. Much like elections, facts and opinions are blurred, and being civil to your opponent rarely has value.

    1. It leaves things in a sad state if you ask me.

      You are right however. The person that throws the last insult wins. Welcome to the internet.