Friday, July 27, 2012

10 Reasons For a 10 Man LFR

I've said that LFR needed a 10 man version since forever, even before it was released.  As it was released and time passed by I see even more reasons for a 10 man version of LFR.  There are reasons why a 25 man version fits but there are also reasons why a 10 man would fit the community better.

1) Balance & Ease

Looking for raid raids are tuned to be much easier because of what they are, so tuning it for 10 man is no different than tuning it for 25 man.  The difference however is that with 25 man certain things need to be tuned around 25 people which means they will hit for more by nature.

If something is designed to hit for 250K and people should stack up to split it so it hits everyone for 10K in a 25 man and it only hits one person it kills them.  If it is designed to hit for 100K in a 10 man so it would split so everyone gets hit for 10K and it only hits one person that person won't die.  So while on average 10 mans are harder than 25 mans, with the tuned down versions, it might actually be easier.  And being this is a random group, there is nothing wrong with easier because that is exactly what it is meant to be.

It might be against the grain but I think the LFR can use being a little easier.  I think that corruptions should be immune to all damage if an amalgamation is up.  I believe that the amalgamation should not fall under 10% life unless it had a 9 stack on it.  I think that the blood boss should become immune to damage until one of the bloods are killed or they all hit him, to force people to do the mechanics correctly.  I am all for LFR being made idiot proof.  I am all for the LFR being easier because it is supposed to be easy.

2) Group Make Up

The current 25 man group make up is 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 damage dealers.  A 25 man is effectively 5 groups of 5 people.  If it were to follow the design of the random dungeons that would mean you would need 5 tanks, 5 healers and 15 damage dealers.

With the 25 man you are needing a lot fewer tanks, 60% fewer tanks as a matter of fact.  Which now turns tank queue into a longer queue.  While in 5 mans you often find yourself needing tanks, it is the exact opposite here.

With the 25 man you are needing 1 more healer if based on the five man formula we are all used to.  For a system that often finds itself offing a call to arms for healers based on the 1 per 5 random design, needing more than the 1 per 5 there already are not enough for just means more of a wait.  It is not exactly a good group make up to require more of something that is already hard to find.

With the 25 man make up you squeeze in 2 more damage dealers based on the five man formula.  2 more, on top of 15.  That is just such a tiny percentage it is really not even worth mentioning.  Damage dealers are the issue, they are the ones that do not get the baggie, they are the ones there are always too many of.  There should be more slots for them to offset that fact.

Remember, every tank or healer can be a damage dealer but not every damage dealer can be a tank or a healer.  As such, the balance needs to be more in the favor of the damage dealer, at least more than adding 2 more on top of 15.

For a ten man group it would be addressed much easier.  One tank, one healer and eight damage dealers.  Before you get your panties all in a bunch over that one healer thing let me explain, I am a healer too, so I know the pressure that would be.

Design the fights to be one tanked, which is not really that much of an issue being it is an easier version of the raid.  Just lower the application of stacking debuffs so they land on the tank slower, thus no need to switch like normal, or just cap them in looking for raid.  If a three stack is what should be switched on, three is the most that can be applied in looking for raid and another will not apply itself until the three falls off.  Easy enough.

For healers there needs to be an additional boost being there is only going to be one of them.  The healer in the group gets a double buff.  Their heals heal for double, their mana regenerates twice as fast, and their haste is doubled so they can get quicker heals off.  Also, lower the raid damage so the entire raid is not always in jeopardy.  Should not be a big deal, because this is an easier version of the raid, so lower AoE type damage is no big deal and a double buffed healer should easily be able to handle it.

Now lets look at the break down.  We have half the healers and half the tanks.  Which means the two baggie classes, the ones that are always needed, have their need lowered some.  And because of that we have 8 spots for damage dealers, instead of the 6 that you would have with 2 five mans.  So you would be increasing it by 2.  But increasing 6 by 2 is a lot more than increasing 15 by 2.  This would help the damage dealer issue.

A one, one, eight design would be much better balanced to represent the actual break down of the community and what they play, and as I said before you need to remember, every tank or healer can be a damage dealer but not every damage dealer can be a tank or healer.

3) The Bad Tank and Bad Healer Issue

Lets look at this from the five man situation as well and face facts.  A bad tank can make the group hell.  A bad healer can make the group hell.  A bad damage dealer, can make it harder, but if the other two damage dealers are decent, it can be over looked.

No one really likes to carry people but admit it, we all do it even if we shouldn't.  The number of dungeons I've done with damage dealers doing 5K or less has to be in the hundreds.  I am sure it is the same for all of you that might read this.   So we all carry people.  It is okay, it might make you feel dirty to admit it, but you do it too.

A bad damage dealer can be compensated for.  A bad tank or a bad healer it is much harder to compensate for.  With the one of each, tank and healer, in a 10 man versions it makes things much easier.

No more will we hear, the other tank did not taunt.  Or that there is one healer DPSing.  The tank is the tank and if there is a tank issue it is the tanks issue.  The healer is the healer and if there is a healer issue it is the healers issue.

No more free rides for the classes that should not be getting free rides anyway.  Lets face it.  In content that requires two tanks it requires them for a reason.  If one is bad it could very well mean a wipe.

Same goes for healing.  If something is designed for two healers, for example, and only one is doing well, it is wipe time.  10 mans would stop the squabbling of who's fault it is.  There is no tank to blame for not taunting when they should, there is no other healer to say, I can't heal this alone too.

But for damage dealers, it is designed for how much damage is required, not how many damage dealers are required.  If something requires a group DPS of 100K and you have 5 people doing 20K it really does not matter what 6, 7 and 8 are doing.  All they do is maker it faster, which of course is easier but damage dealers are based on a total they all do whereas a tank is judged by themselves and a healer is judged by themselves.

I know what is going through your mind right now and I am about to answer your question.  No, I am not advocating carrying the bad damage dealers while kicking the bad tank or bad healer.  I am advocating letting the players play the game we have all become accustom to playing, the 5 man mentality.

The 5 man mentality is this.  If the tank is bad you deiced, can we do it with this tank or should be kick him.  If the healer is bad you decide, can we do it with this healer or should we kick him.  If the damage dealer is bad, can we do it with him doing 5K or should we replace him.

Sure, it puts more pressure on the tank or healer than it does on the damage dealers, because it is just like a five man, they have no back up whereas a bad damage dealer can be carried if you are not having any problems.  It is not fair, no, but it is the world we live in and as anyone will tell you, there are more bad damage dealers in the game than there are bad tanks and healers.

4) The Kick Issue

There is one thing I am thinking about that 25 man looking for raid has that 10 man would not have even half as much of, and that is not just people, that is kicks.

With only one tank and one healer the likelihood of someone that can not perform their role even entering the queue is lowered.  They know they will not be able to get away with being a shadow priest healer because they are the only healer.  This means, there will be less need to kick bad tanks and bad healers.  People willfully enter as the wrong role in 25 man because they think they can hide in those large numbers.

Also, there will be less need to kick others as well.  The retribution paladin doing 2K, the arcane mage doing 3K, the warlock doing 4K and the hunter doing 5K will not be as easily over looked as they are in a 25 man.  I've seen people in the looking for raid do that and go unnoticed because there are just so many people there.  They would get kicked a lot faster here and they would learn they can not slack like that when there are less people.  Again, people willfully do bad because they know they can hide in the numbers.

Your kick would mean more in a 10 man as well. You will be kicking one tenth of the group out and one replacement could make a bigger difference as opposed to kicking one twenty fifth of the group where their replacements numbers, even if great, will not make as much of a difference.

In time, there would be less kicks in 10 mans because there would be less people can get away with and they would start to realize that and not even queue up.

5) Getting Away With Things

In a 10 man it would be a lot harder for people to get away slacking off, killing the wrong thing, not switching when required, etc.  With 25 people it is sometimes hard to tell who did what, even more so for people that are not used to 25 man raiding.

I've seen healers called out for doing something wrong when it wasn't them.  I've seen a shaman pull and get kicked but they kicked the wrong shaman.  I've seen a warlock that never switched when they needed to and another warlock get blamed for padding his DPS when it wasn't him.  I've seen a hunter get flamed over and over for his pet attacking a corruption when it was some other hunters pet.

I have no problem with someone calling someone out if they do something wrong.  I do have a problem with people calling out the wrong people.

Less people means less things to watch which means less people making mistakes accusing someone of doing something that they didn't.  Smaller groups are less likely to let someone get away with things.

6) Guild Groups

This could very well be a toss up.  I've done dungeons with 4 people from the same guild and it was a nightmare and I've done dungeons with 4 people from the same guild and it was amazing.  More often than not, even if a guild group has some bad people in the group, it is better than a full random.

For the most part a guild group, even if carrying a new guild mate through or gearing up an alt for someone, will have voice communication and that person, even if not doing well, will at least be following appropriate mechanics.

It would be better for guilds too.  A guild could make full 10 mans and run it to gear up and teach people.   Being most guilds run 10s now anyway, it would fit perfectly.

I can not speak for other guilds but I know my guild would easily make 5 full runs on our own and perhaps even a few partial runs looking for fill ins whereas now, we don't even run LFR any more because the most we can usually get this late in the expansion is 10 or 12 and unless we have all the tanks and healers we don't run.  Like I said, we could carry bad DPS, but carrying bad tanks and healers is just too darn stressful.  In the end, it would be easier for us to carry someone though a DS normal than it is to run LFR.

Guild groups would be better for guilds and it would be better for the single tank, single healer and single DPS that they need to play fill in.  Even more so if those guilds know what they were doing.

I can assure you if there was a 10 man version my guild would be running groups of at least 6 or 7 through there every single day of the week based on how many players we have and how many characters some of them have.  Even more so being it would be a faster way to valor cap our alts that way than it is doing randoms.

Guild groups running would be good for guilds and good for the community all around.

7) Familiarity

Being most guilds run 10s now, most pugs run 10s now, that means people getting experience in 10s is actually a good thing.  In 25 man looking for raid it has become known that if one person fails it can be easily over looked whereas in 10s every person is important.  Even in this watered down version, 10s can show that to a new player a lot better than 25s can.

It would also be a better place for someone to learn.  Even someone like myself that ran 25 for a long time can still find 25 man raids over whelming in the LFR setting where it always seems as if people are running around like chickens with their heads cut off.  In the looking for raid with the breakneck pace that people move at for someone that is not accustom to it the whole experience could be an effort is wasting time.  They can't learn like that and they won't.

Playing in 10s will mean it will be easier to follow the fight and the flow.  Also being, while still extremely easy, a lot more dependent on people doing the right thing they will more likely learn the right thing to do.

I can tell you from the number of players I have bought into raiding since the LFR came out that had never raided before, they see it and it is nothing like they remembered from LFR because LFR moves too fast, teaches them nothing, and does not even require them to know anything.  While 10s will still be super easy, being there are only 10 people it will help a lot with them getting familiar with the fight as it should be.

8) Teaching

People take it for granted that everyone in a group knows what to do and to those people that think that I have one thing to say.  Take your head out of your ass.

While raiders do the LFR, the LFR is not made for raiders.  It is made for non raiders.  It has to be, with no coordination, no set leadership, no voice chat, and no real requirements being the system does not check to make sure people have appropriate gear for their class and role or even for PvE and no checks and measures to make sure people are gemmed or enchanted, LFR is most definitely not meant for raiders.

With that said, a lot of the people that do use the LFR are ex raiders, wannabe raiders that just do not have the time and people that would like to raid but do not know how to.  That is who the looking for raid is for.

In a large group they get the mob mentality and the sad but true fact is that rude and abusive people are the most vocal which means they start in on people in 25 man and others follow.  That is mob mentality for you.  In a 25 man that means there are a lot of people that can turn on you. Even if it only ends up being three or four, when only three of four are vocal, it sure feels like the entire raid is against you.

People can not learn this way.  Instead of bashing someone, explain to them.

There is a reason teaching does not happen in the 25 man LFR however.  There are just way to many people there and if the average of 1 in five players is bad you do not really want to waste your time teaching five people when you just want to be blowing through the content. This is why LFR is so abusive.  Well, this and the fact that everyone has their head up their ass and thinks that everyone should know everything just becuase they do.

In a 10 man group it would be easier to teach that one or two.  In a 10 man group it is also more likely that you will find people willing to because the likelihood of one person starting a mob mentally harassment like in 25 man would be decreased.

Again, I can not speak for others, but I know when my guild runs 4 of 5 randoms and we get someone new we always help them and give them advice if they want it.  So I am sure if we were doing an 8 of 10 LFR we would do the same thing.  But if we do a 15 or 18 of 25, we just do not want to be bothered.  There are just too many people that need help.

Most people, even the jerks, would be willing to help one person and maybe even two.  But you see seven or eight that need help and you say screw it, they are on their own.

The people that LFR is meant for would be better severed running 10 mans because they would learn a hell of a lot more from it and are more likely to get people willing to teach instead of insult.

9) Pugging & Community

Most servers people pug content.  Most servers they pug it as 10s.  While I've seen people attempt to pug LFR on a few servers it rarely ever happens.  That is a lot of random people to get together.  But a group of six people, even more so if they have the one tank and one healer required, could easily fill out a 10 man looking for raid team.

This would actually bring a little taste of community back to servers that seem to be losing it to the looking for system.  From what I've read, seen and think myself people would rather run with self made groups.  It is easier to make a self made group for a 10 man.  That is something no one can argue.  It is a fact.

Lets forget about pugs for a second even.  Just look at the random groups.  In a 25 man no one talks to anyone, at least not nicely, there are just too many people there, but I can assure you in a 10 man people might be more likely to.  They would even be more likely to talk if part of the 10 man is three people from one server and the other is seven people from another.  Then it is not talking with 24 random people it is one group talking to another.  It could actually bring a little community to the global community that randoms have put us into.

So doing it as a self made group or letting the system put two groups together, it could be good for the community.   I can't see much wrong with that.

10) Diversity

The game is all about giving people options, or at least it seems like that to me.  People have the option to raid or PvP.  They have the option to do harder raiding in heroics, or more concentrated PvP in arenas and rated battlegrounds.  In mists you will have the option to grind your valor from quests, dungeons, scenarios, raids, challenge modes, you name it.

There is reputation grinding, mount hunting, pet battles, farming, archeology, dailies for fishing, cooking, some professions, reputation, or just gold.  There is playing the auction house, gathering to craft or sell, world PvP, sitting in stormwind doing nothing, you name it.

The game is attempting to give people as much as possible to let them play the game the way they want to play it.  They go through extreme efforts sometimes to make sure everyone is included in everything and has the option to do it if they so wish, that is the reason for the looking for raid to begin with.

So why, with all these options all allowing us to play the game the way we want to play it is there no option to play it with a random 10 man looking for raid if we want to?

I think that is a fairly decent question.


  1. Blizzard is all about making things easier. 25man LFR is easier exactly because so many people can fuck up and it's still ok. So I don't see them wanting to change that..I like the idea of 1 tank 1 healer for a 10man but following a 5man dungeon logic, when your tank dies or the healer dies it almost constitutes for a wipe.
    As for how people behave? 5man, 10man, 25man. Internet anonymity brings the worst in people. The same person that would never have imagined yelling to a random stranger in his face because he accidentally bumped his arm with his, in a raid environment they would rage to no end. Or even worse.I really don't see this changing though.People are just people :-/
    I actually agree with your previous comment, I think I will prefer an even easier 25man LFR than a harder 10man LFR. However I have to be honest. I don't think I will be running any come MoP...

    1. In larger groups, the internet idiot will act even more like one than normal because he has a bigger captive audience and then mob mentality starts where the people that can't make their own decisions will follow along with the internet idiot.

      Smaller groups are better. While there will always be people like that they are easier to control when they do not have a huge captive audience to copy them around.

      I would just love anything that they can do to limit out encounters with the internet idiot. Being blizzard has already shown over and over again that they refuse to moderate their own community, the very least they can do is give us more controllable environments. An environment that a 10 man could serve.

      Sorry if that went on a little bit of a tangent, but I know it would never happen. They can preach making a system everyone can enjoy all they want, but they never will.

  2. Oh I don't know grumpy...Sometimes I pray that LFD will land me with the occasional abusive idiot that I will troll to no end in a way that makes his blood boil without giving him any reason really to report me. Stop advocating for controllable environments, you'll eventually take away my fun when I m feeling vengeful !

    1. I guess maybe I am too polite. I do not troll, I do not insult, I do not try to make the game experience bad for anyone.

      I would sooner leave than sink down to their level. But don't think it is because I want to take the morale high road, it is nothing that honorable. It is because I dread wasting time and talking to them would be wasting time.

  3. No, as I see it I am there and they are there.It will be a waste of my time to leave my dungeon. As for sinking down to someones level, I don't.But I'll be damned if I let someone be abusive and get away with it.
    We are handling the matter differently but I applaud you for keeping a straight face in such situations.

    1. I can see your way and I will admit I've confronted a few from time to time but it was usually when I thought it was either worth it for myself to do so or I thought they might actually listen.

      Like the the other day I got a random zul on my healer and the three DPS were 5, 7 and 11K. The tank was doing 15.

      We downed the first boss and the tank left. One of the DPS said, it figures, tanks always do that. It was the 5K DPS that said that.

      So I said, perhaps they would not leave if you were doing DPS appropriate for the dungeon. Anything less than 12K is not appropriate for this dungeon. Be happy you had a raid geared tank and healer to help you through one boss. Visit it will help. And then I left group.

      I figured it was worth my time to say that. A lot more worth my time than it would have been to stay there and hope we get another raid geared tank to continue carrying them.

  4. I don't see the LFR system allowing for 10 mans anytime soon, for the same reasons you like it to be so.

    Although Blizz likes to talk about ''not wanting to funnel people into content they don't like'' in practice they seem to do little else. Like we talked about before, Blizz intentionally creates 'carrying' scenario's because they know they only need to introduce the chance for some stronger Gear in content people are 'too good for' to run it, and thereby help other, random people get their slice of the hamster-wheel carrots.

    In other words, 10-man LFR would allow 10 mans Guilds to avoid helping other people gear up, which would go directly against their goals. Note that from I understand the new MoP Valor will be mostly gained from 5-mans and such and not actual Raiding, quite likely for the reason I gave.

    given Blizzard's apparent emphasis on pushing Expansion boxes instead of being contend with subscription income (seemingly odd for the MMO market), it might be interesting to see how many boxes of the various Expansions actually sold over time.
    (note that TBC was added to Vanilla clients automatically for free - killing off the 60-64 bracket in EU - early Cata, and Cata was given at worth with the Scroll program)

    More specifically: how many sold at launch of every Expansion. Of course it doesn't say everything but I'm getting curious about how many people actually looked forward to the various Expansions, and how many 'Expansion Holdouts' there actually were/are.
    (Note again that during Wrath, the number of them was apparently large enough to allow Expansion-Capped characters back in in the non-marker Battlegrounds after a non-disclosed number stopped subscribing those clients)

    Just throwing it out there ;)

    1. They do seem to have a habit of trying to push people into doing the content they want them to do, regardless of what the player really wants to so. Even if they do preach that is it a play it as you want to play it game.

      Look at this expansion, they tried their hardest to make everyone in the game a raider saying people should all be able to see it. Yet the numbers show, even with LFR, less than half the people that PvP raid. Raiding is still, even with everyone being pushed into it, a 10% player base thing at best.

      Perhaps this is why they are trying to push more PvP in mists, because people already PvP without needing to be pushed.

      I wonder what is going to happen when they try to push people into doing something they normally do anyway?

      Roughly 5% of the population raided normally before cata, it was bought up to 7% with the LFR. Roughly 30% of the population PvPs on a regular basis, will this make it 40% or will it ruin lower skilled brackets like the LFR ruined lower skilled raiding?

    2. "Roughly 30% of the population PvPs on a regular basis, will this make it 40% or will it ruin lower skilled brackets like the LFR ruined lower skilled raiding?"

      Looking at how Cata panned out, I'd say bad is more likely.

      The problem is that PvE and PvP work differently in their accessibillity. Easier access to high iLevel Gear is generally good for PvE (allows more people to see the sattic PvE content) but bad for PvP as it works with relatives: what is the other guy using?

      If it's easier for me to get, it's easier for the other guy as well, meaning that in relative terms nothing changes but in semi-absolute terms it does; the Average Gearing Level goes up if Gear becomes easier to acquire, and the higher the AGL, the harder things are for newcomers.

      Also, giving more (accessible) rewards means more incentive for premading in regular PvP, which again works the same: the easier it gets, the harder it becomes for non-premaders.

      To give examples: the removal of Conquest Rating requirements meant that more ppl who did Arena got it, which in turn meant the AGL went up. Then they gave Conq for regular BG's. Besides in a sense replacing the Honor grind with a (harder) Conq grind, like Gevlon gleefully pointed outthis makes premading even more attractive, esp. by using ad-ons like AV Enabler (allows to circumvent the 5 man limit). Add in Real ID cross-realm (accessibility premading up) and you get the mess that plague the EU ie full-raid HK premades turning AVand IoC in a complete joke.

      And ofc they're adding yet moor heirloms so that issue will only worsen again.

    3. The thing is that PvP comes down more to skill than PvE does. As such, while gear is a factor it is not as huge a factor.

      You can brute force raid bosses by over powering them with insane DPS or healers that can heal anything thanks to gear but in PvP the better skilled player will always win.

      I could be in all the best conquest gear in the world but being I am an average at best PvPer someone in last seasons honor gear would own me.

      So I do agree, the gear issue exists in PvP as well it does not exists to the extent it does in PvE content.

      So while I agree with what you point out, there is no difference between now and what it will become. Good teams with good skill and good communication will win, always will. Gear might help, but it is their skill that wins it. That is the way of PvP.

  5. I can definitely get behind this. A 10 man (or something smaller than 25) would be great for LFR.

    I just lvled a DK that I want to learn to tank on but I've been apprehensive to just dive into LFR/LFD and get a bunch of pugs killed and subsequently get myself kicked.

    A great scenario would be:
    10 man guild lfr group (or mostly guild)
    I tank it. A backup tank goes dps and guides me and is there to take over if I screw up too badly. Also, no one has to lock their toons to the raid just for helping me learn.

    This can be done in 5 mans but can't really be done in a raid scenario except for normal modes which have higher skill requirements and often require two fully-competent tanks.

    1. From my experience I would say tanking a 5 man is way harder than tanking raids. Raids, being they are usually with set groups, are much easier. Do not worry about normals. If you know the fights and know when to use your cooldowns with the appropriate gear they are not problem.

      But yes, I agree, it would be nice to be able to learn in an easier setting with people you know. Always better that way.

    2. Agreed. 5-man require more effort on the tank's part than your average raid. You don't learn how to tank in a LFR and glad you decided against it. You don't even learn how to tank in a random 5-man because doing this in heroics at max level is a bit frustrating for most people who are just looking for a fast clean run. Take your guildies, 5-man stuff till you're comfortable tanking and your guildies agree that you're decent, at least.