I always see people on the forums saying that 10s are so much easier then 25s. Now that we can rotate between the two with the 4.0.1 update coming it got me thinking about it some more. In some ways I can agree with that and in others, particularly from a management point of view 10s are leaps and bounds harder then 25s. From my experience, as limited as it might be still, 25s are usually a laugh fest because of the way things work out.
Here is the short list of why I think 10s are actually harder then 25s.
Buffs?
You have to start to weigh what is more important to the raid when it comes to buffs. The skill of the people you invite or the buffs they offer.
10s - Is a buff you need really important enough to invite someone that is say 85% as good as someone else that doesn't offer the buff? Choosing buffs over skill is really a hard decision to make sometimes.
25s - You have 25 people, unless you have a group half filled with DKs you will have at least one of everything and all the assorted buffs you can imagine.
Winner of easiest: 25s are 1000 times easier in this sense.
Gearing up?
Lets face it, we have all geared up alts in raids by carrying them for whatever your reason is. I made a healer and geared it up just to help my guild. I am sure other guilds do the same thing all the time.
10s - Maybe when everyone is over geared so much that you can 8 man a 10 man run you might be able to carry a DPS or two, but you are not exactly going to even consider taking a under geared tank or healer along, unless you take them as DPS. Carrying to gear up is not really a good option in 10 man.
25s - The average 25 man I am in there is me and maybe two other people (and that is a LONG maybe because it is rare) over 10K DPS. Most hover around 6K-9K even with the 30% buff and there are always a few under the tank. This is even in groups where we go 10/12 in 25s. Carrying people in a 25 is standard, always has been and always will be.
Winner of easiest: Gearing up in 25s is not only easy, it is common place.
Mistakes?
Lets face it, I do not care how elite you think you are you will make mistakes, we all do. Mistakes happen, that is why they are called mistakes and not stupidity.
10s - Until you get to the point where you can over power the bosses losing one person, even the lowest DPS on the recount, can be the difference between victory and defeat.
25s - Even when it is still new and still challenging you can lose a DPS or two or even three and be able to pull out a win. Been there and done that plenty of times.
Winner of easiest: 25s mans are more forgiving of mistakes.
Mechanics?
Every boss does something. 10 or 25, knowing the mechanics is the make or break for beating the boss. For this example we will use a 10 man boss with 3 distinct mechanics.
10s - There are 3 mechanics to work with, once you got those three mechanics down you can do the boss.
25s - Usually they have one more thing to think about, once you got those four mechanics down you can do the boss.
Winner of easiest: 10s, but only by a tiny margin. Most people that can learn 3 things can learn 4 things just as well. Might as well call this one even.
Damage?
Everything does damage, if it did not then moving out of the fire would not be a big deal.
10s - Lets say something hits for 10K per hit in 10 man...
25s - It might hit for 13K in 25 mans. But in 25 mans you have better gear which more then makes up for the damage difference. With that gear you can take more damage, mitigate more damage and heal more damage.
Winner of easiest: This one is a tie. Really no difference between the two.
Hit Points?
What is it going to take to kill the big bad guy is something that is a huge difference between the two.
10s - Lets say a boss has 7M health in 10 man...
25s - That same boss might have 24M health in 25 man. Seems like a lot, but once you factor in that the 25M most likely has triple the amount of people doing DPS with more buffs and better gear as well any difference is negligible at best.
Winner of easiest: This one is a tie. Really no difference between the two.
Skilled Players?
We all want to run with people that know how to get out of the fire. Sometimes finding those players is hard.
10s - For a 10 man you only need 10 people that are not complete morons.
25s - For 25 man you need to find 25 people that are not complete morons.
Winner of easiest: Well this one goes to 10 mans hands down. Finding 10 good players is a lot easier then finding 25 good players. Sometimes I doubt there are even 25 good players (that are not total asshats) on my server.
So in a tally when it all ends.
25s are easier in 3 areas.
10s are easier in 1 area.
3 areas they are basically tied.
So how exactly are 25s easier then 10s? Most people use 25s to gear up to do 10s to make 10s easy. 10s are harder and even more so when you do them with 10s only gear.
When was the US first LK Heroic 10 man kill?
I bet everyone said months and months ago right? Nope.
It was September 19th, 2010, less then a month ago. Check it out. Now that is your proof that 10s are a hell of a lot harder then 25s when you do not use 25s to gear up to make the 10s easier. They used only gear appropriate for the content.
When was the US first LK Heroics 25 man kill?
It was April 22nd, 2010, Check it out. Nearly 5 full months before someone could down 10 man in level appropriate gear just as they downed 25 man in level appropriate gear.
10s are harder then 25s. For many reasons. Do not ever let anyone tell you otherwise.
If you choose to use the argument that people just did not try for it then you do not know about the hard core people. Hard core people are all about world firsts. They did not do the world first 10 strict not because they did not want to do it, they didn't do it because they could not do it.
In level appropriate gear 10s are much harder then 25s. Facts speak for themselves. Just check the dates. If 10s where really that much easier don't you think the world first would have come before the world first for the 25 and not 5 months later?
So with the changes that are coming and everyone saying that 25s are dead because 10s are so much easier I would have to think they are wrong. 25s will still be run to help gear up people and because over all, 25s are just plain easier, they offer more loot, and they most likely will cover the fact that someone is trying to carry others through content.
25s are not dead. The "lesser" skilled players will still do 25s... for a while at least, until they realize that 25 gear can no longer carry them through 10s being they are the same loot now. Wow are they in for a surprise. They can not use the 25 version to over gear the 10 version any more, I just had to say that again, it makes me happy. I love it. Oh... my... god... I love it.
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Interesting! I definitely agree with you that 25s you get a bit of forgiveness when it comes to performance, and that you can definitely have more success (generally) with some undergeared people than you can in 10's.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think it's really important to note about Gearing Up is that you have MUCH more competition for drops. In my 10's team, my hunter competes with MAYBE one other person for mail, usually no one for bows/guns, and 2-3 people for DPS trinkets. In 25s? There is likely at least 2-3 other hunters, let alone AGI mail users, and probably about 8-9 people after DPS trinkets.
Put it another way, my hunter has a couple dozen ICC boss kills under his belt and has zero gear from ICC25. Not exactly easier in my opinion!
I think mechanics are also unquestionably harder on 25s, too. Even if it's just "more of X" like more Bone Spikes, or an actually new mechanic like MC on Deathwhisper 25, it's still harder! Plus there is also the incidental increase in difficulty for things like spreading out properly to avoid spreading dasmage, since there are so many more bodies.
I can see where you are coming from on the more competition for gear. I have nothing upgraded being I have never won a mark. I've only won one piece of 25 gear ever. Sure it was deathbringers will and it was with a 100 but that is the only piece of 25 gear I've won. I guess I am referring more to the people that actually have luck... not myself and your hunter (must be something about us hunters), both having seemingly horrible luck.
ReplyDeleteYou are right with mechanics over all but some are minimal, like marrowgar, if you were not told the difference you might not even notice it and others are harder like deathwhisper, but with 25 people I am sure you have at least 5 that are decent enough players to CC the person instantly that is makes no real difference to the fight if they are told it is coming.
You mentioned one there there I did seem to forget... spreading out. Oh my god how I hate that in 25 mans. Stay 10 yards apart in 10 man is like, okay, I always am. Stay 10 yards apart in a 25 man is like, so you want me to go back downstairs? There is just no room. Thanks for pointing that part out, totally slipped my mind.
With the changes I see 25 mans getting harder as you will have the same gear you have in 10s to do 25s which means less room for error even if there is no additional mechanic, which there will not be come Cataclysm. They already said that the fights will be the same in 10 and 25, just scaled accordingly for more people in terms of health, damage and reward.
Thanks for taking the time to comment.