Wednesday, January 29, 2014

Would You Welcome Another Legendary Quest Line?

Having completed the legendary quest line as it came out and now that it has been streamlined so it is faster and having done it on multiple characters encompassing all roles be it melee, ranged, healer and soon tank as well as, of course, multiple hunters, it makes me wonder how others feel about the quest line.

I can see how some people hate it and some people love it.  I even feel a little of both myself about it.  Some of my hate comes from the time when I went 6 straight weeks without getting a runestone before they changed it to guarantee at least one a week and some of that love is because I was able to get it on alts I have not really raided with in this expansion so they are ready to raid if and when the time comes.

I am sure all people will think of it differently but in my mind I believe if you want to raid, at least raid as part of a regular raid team, the legendary is mandatory.  Even more so for a damage dealer.  Is it needed?  That would depend on who you ask.  I could easily kill garrosh without it, at least on normal, but I would do so while preforming much better with it.  That is not up for debate.  Putting out more numbers as a damage dealer is always good.

The issue is with the word mandatory.  It has been thrown around a lot this expansion and while the fact might hold true that nothing in actually mandatory it is the person playing and how they feel that makes it so.  So even if something is not really mandatory if someone feels it is, for them, then it is mandatory.

When I get a new character leveled that I intend to play often and get into raids I make an effort to at least start work on the cloak.  Even if it is only in a part time sort of way.

I like the model, I like that they made a nice catch up mechanic.  Lets face it, if the quest items still only dropped from the bosses they were intended to drop from and it still took 6 weeks to collect 6000 valor instead of 3 weeks to collect 3000 valor I most likely would have never gotten it on any character other than my main.  That long trip is fine when you are doing it as it comes out, but when you have to go back for it, that is another story all together.

Even if some like to call it a welfare legendary, the ignorant ones at least, getting it takes a lot of time and effort as well as enduring what is probably the worst part of the game.  Random raid content.  It could make a nun curse like a truck driver, that is how bad it is.  If ever there was something that took a lot of work to get, it is the legendary and therefore it is not welfare, not in the slightest.

However, even if I do believe it was a lot of work I can understand what the people that call it a welfare legendary mean even if I do not agree with the terminology used.

Having just completed the quest line again, with its faster catch up mechanics on a new 90 makes me feel as if it was a lack luster experience.  Just like anything else in game, it always feels better to do it when it is new, when it is current, when it requires more time, more work and some might even say more skill.  Lets face it, doing the solo scenarios was surely harder with a 510 item level than it was with a 540 item level right?

I liked the quest line but I am not exactly sure if I liked the catch up mechanics.  Just like when the expansion began.  I did not mind doing all those dailies because I was going to do them anyway on my main because I like getting everyone to exalted.  When it came to alts however, it felt mandatory.  Yes, there is that word again.  Any thing you do that you want to do feels fine, any thing you do because you feel you have to do it does not feel fine.

That is my one issue with the legendary quest line.  For me at least, a character does not feel complete without it.  As I always say, if there is something within my reach that I can get alone I should get it to be raid ready and that is why I feel that I should have the legendary on my alts that I intend to use in a raid setting, sooner or later.

But I am torn.  Like I said, the quest line was exciting and felt good but when doing it on alts it lost a little bit of its punch because killing the solo scenarios with a much higher item level loses something.

Would I welcome another legendary quest line?  Yes, I believe I would.

Do I think that there is a lot blizzard could learn from this one?  Absolutely.

They can learn that the community will make something like this mandatory.  Like all the guilds recruiting on my server.  They ask that anyone that wants to join their raid team have the legendary cloak.  Many guilds, talking ones that are not even half way through normal yet, will not even entertain someone joining without the cloak.

And lets not forget pugs.  When pugs for flex runs require a legendary you know it is mandatory for many even if people try to shy away from the word and blizzard and their defenders will be glad to tell you over and over that nothing in mandatory.  If you are a player and you want to play, guess what, for many things it is.

Blizzard can really learn something from that.  The legendary for all is nice, it gives every one that is willing to put in the time, work and effort the ability to get it.  But when it is as powerful as it is, more so for damage dealers, it becomes mandatory.  I went from doing 200-220 on my newest alt to doing 260-280 just by getting the cape.  With a boost that huge I do not care what anyone says, it is mandatory.  Blizzard can learn from that.  If you make something too good it becomes mandatory.

Then there is the whole process of getting the cloak and the changes made as time went on.  I am sure there is something to be learned for there as well.  But honestly, I don't know what it is.  I lean both ways on this one.  Sorry for not being able to take a side but I believe both sides hold merit.  So what can blizzard learn from it?  Maybe you know.

There are two schools of thought here.  Keep the legendary quest line as it should be, do not add catch up mechanics.  Do not increase drop rates.  Do not make it faster.  Do not let quest items drop from additional places.  Let everyone have the same experience with the quest line even if that includes going 6 weeks without getting a runestone and waiting 6 weeks while you collect valor.

And then there is the other school of thought, the alt school of thought.  I've already done this and I should not need to do this all again.  If you have the legendary on one character you should be allowed to buy it on all of them.

One way might over value the legendary as it would increase the time investment needed to get it and make people that are late comers or people that switched mains have a much harder time playing catch up and the other way would almost completely devalue the effort of getting it if you only needed to go through the motions on one character to get it on all.

So maybe blizzard did find the right mix, with just a speed up system.  Perhaps when I make my post about my recent journey from 90 to legendary where I recorded every boss, every drop, from the moment I hit 90 until I collected my legendary cloak it will bring it into a little more perspective how fast it is to get the cloak now.  In the end however, it took me less time from 90 to legendary on my newest character than it took me to collect runestones on my main.  Perhaps that is where people get their welfare mentality, even if that is the wrong word to use.  It does suck to see someone (even if it is myself) getting everything done faster than it took you to do one small part of a huge and life suckingly long  quest line.

Being I play a hunter main and the idea of hunters getting a legendary again in the old style is all but impossible because the game likes to add legendary weapons that can be used by multiple classes and only hunters use ranged weapons so we will never see a legendary again if it were not for the legendary for all design.  It is why I welcome the legendary for all mentality.  I would not have a new legendary without a legendary for all design.  Of course as a hunter I like it.  It's hunter loot.

But would you welcome another legendary quest line?  And do you think there should be a system like now with a faster catch up or keep it the same throughout the expansion, or make it faster for alts?


  1. I like the "legendary for all" setup and the catch up mechanisms are fine. This is probably the only way I'd ever get a legendary.

    Also, I don't like the ones that are only for one class because it makes that class OP, which screws up game balance. So if they have future legendaries, they should be available for all classes or at least all classes of a specific role.

    I think Blizz will take some lessons from the initial quests to ensure that people don't suffer from horrible luck. Although I didn't like having to do LFR overa and over again to get the drops, it was an incentive for better skilled players to do LFR even when they didn't need gear anymore, so Blizz probably saw that as a win.

    Overall, I think they should do it again, but the item should be less legendary. For example, it could be the same iLvL as the final tier heroic warforged gear (580), instead of 28 iLvLs higher (608). (iLvLs are way out of control, but that's a different topic..)

    p.s., it was 6000 valor originally.

    1. I am almost sure it was 7000. Been so long, maybe I forgot.

      I really do think an option to avoid the LFR other then pugging which can sometimes be worse than the LFR should be added to the game. At least let dungeon bosses, last bosses, have a chance to drop the item.

      I agree however they will keep it in LFR because it is the bait the "better" players need to go there because there is no other reason they would do LFR for a prolonged amount of time.

      I agree with that too. Less legendary. It should not be a 60K DPS increase.

  2. I don't like the word "legendary", frankly. It's just a big grind. Then again, it's a side thing.

    I'd choose the "farm once, get it almost free on alts" approach. Other people might choose differently, but I know that I never even considered farming for the second legendary on an alt, I thought it's just a waste of time. Yes, I guess that's partly because I am not into serious PVE, but then again, how many people are into serious PVE? If not a lot, then this "would never farm on an alt" feeling is shared by many. Maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it does.

    I am not sure the legendary has worked well overall. Maybe again, that's because it's from the point of view of someone who isn't into serious PVE and is only doing raids (flex and most of normal in my case) because, well, that's another aspect of the game, and why not. The good part that worked for me - I can get a BiS, that's good. The bad part that didn't work - it's not about how good it is to get a legendary, it's about how bad it is if you don't get a legendary. It's more of a liability than a reward. Plus it is just a grind with only two or three bright spots. The bad part, even only the first part of it, outweighs the good part for me. I wouldn't want them to repeat this in WoD, no way. If they do repeat it, I likely will ignore it.

    Also: 6000. Sorry, Grumpy. :-)

    1. 6000 or 7000, doesn't make much of a difference, it was still wasted weeks of doing nothing but capping valor. Boooooo!!!!

      You are a PvP person and it is BiS for PvP as well. How does it make you feel not being into PvE having to PvE to get the best in slot piece of gear for PvP?

      I often speak from the point of a PvEer that does not like being forced into PvP. It would be interesting to hear it from the other way around.

      Sure, it was a grind, a long one at that. But everything in game is a grind, that is what makes the game a game. If they just gave everything to everyone it would be a welfare game, like people like to call some things.

      Heck, even the bracers you need off the 6th boss lets say. If you kill it week after week after week looking for them, basically you are grinding for it. The entire concept of the game, no matter how you look at it, is to grind things.

      Perhaps this grind was just too long. Heck, even on alts that get it done faster now I think it is too long. I am almost at the point where even if I want it on other characters I just can not bring myself to do it again. Not because of anything other than it makes me do the LFR and if anything can push me to quit the game at this moment, it is the LFR and feeling forced to do it.

    2. Well, when I was talking about BiS, I was meaning BiS for PVE, for PVP the cloak is only BiS for world PVP, not for arenas / BGs. It feels pretty bad, to be honest, even though world PVP doesn't have ratings and has numerous other problems. The entire thing when I *have* to wear PVE pieces on the Timeless Isle - which means I *have* to get them - or I will just be farmed by PVE'ers, feels terrible. It's fine after you get some flex gear and get to something like 545-550, but before that... you are a second citizen. I can compensate the difference in 10 ilvls, but 30??? Only if the other guy is out of CDs or accidentally aggros something like a kilnmaster or equally disadvantaged. 30 ilvls is a hell of a lot (and that's the difference between full conquest 522 and upgraded flex + legendary 552+). So, yeah. It's bad.

      I am looking forward to the next season, though, where conquest gear will be 550. :-)

    3. I forgot about PvE gear scaling down in PvP. So you are not really "forced" top do PvE for a piece of PvP gear. I guess it is not so bad then.

      I do believe that you, as a skilled PvPer, against someone like me, who isn't, could destroy me even if I am in my PvE and you in your PvP gear.

      I think skill would be the deciding factor and you have that on me by a long shot. I actually like the design that I have a chance in world PvP now if I get into a fight against a PvPer.

      But I understand how you feel. If you meet another skilled PvPer in PvE gear you are dead usually. So it kind of forces you to get some PvE gear.

      For people like me world PvP has never been more balanced than it is right now however.

      Maybe that 550 gear will bridge the gap for you where your skill will take a huge lead again.

  3. I liked it, generally (minus the forced PvP) and generally liked how it worked out. I appreciated the catch-ups for the earlier tier content (I don't think any current tier requirements were ever nerfed when the tier was current).

    I haven't seen much "cape required" except for TI farm groups over the gap so I haven't seen it being necessary to raid... anyone who would turn down a geared, quality player because he doesn't have the legendary is an idiot. Yet another unrealistic barrier to entry that people believe they need. You can't fix stupid.

    I *might* consider making any future legendaries BoA, especially if the current Garrosh BoA weapons are working out (really hard to tell from my angle, I see very little comment about them anywhere). I don't think that's a necessary step, though.

    It also depends on how they implement the legendary going forward. I posted a theory elsewhere recently that it wouldn't actually be an item since the only slots I could see being viable in WoD would be belt or boots... neither screams legendary as slots go. I was thinking they might go a different direction... add a new legendary-specific slot that provides a boost rather than a piece of gear. Another alternative to that would be to give you some sort of account-wide legendary perk that all your toons get.

    I thought they did pretty well with the stall tactics considering it had to last through most of the expansion. The drop collection stalls, the VP collection stall, the "you're done for now, come back next patch" stalls... it seemed okay. Might have been one drop collection step too many, though. Those in a hurry could get each step done ASAP by running all the things, those who didn't (ie. me, even on my first toon, got a late start (monks take time to level from 1) and didn't run much LFR, I knew I'd eventually get what I needed from normal group runs) still finished at roughly the same time as everyone else.

    1. I see a lot of cape required on my server. many guilds will only recruit new members if they have the cape and not cape on an alt, on the character they want to join with.

      You see very little comment about the heirlooms because no one ever gets the damn things. lol The drop rate is extremely low.

      A friend of mine in his guild downs him on flex and normal each week with a 25 man group. He has not seen one drop yet this year. That is 4 lock outs, 8 kills, 25 people with each one, yeah, the drop rate is dismal.

      I understand stalls are needed, but I think, looking back, I would rather wait another 6 weeks collecting valor than go for 6 weeks without getting a drop.

      At least with the valor you feel you are moving forward, getting somewhere. With no drops you always feel as if you are behind. Putting bad drop rates as a stall tactic will one day cause me to quit, it is not compelling game play to "not" get what you are there for.

      I too think it was good over all. Still not thrilled my alts have to do LFR and would like to see another way to get stuff, but it looks like another quest like this will be in the next expansion. Maybe they learned something from this time around.

    2. I'm still at 2 drops in 3 kills (nobody I know is running much, if any, flex these days) so I'm single-handedly dragging down the average for the rest of you. Sorry about that. :)

      The conclusion I never really reached in my comment is that if they came out with, basically, the exact same legendary process in WoD, I'd be fine with it. My comment probably came across that way but I never really said it.

    3. I think they pretty much hit it spot on as well, with the exception of the waiting on valor part. I would have liked to skip that on alts.