Tuesday, April 30, 2013

Is Raid Rep for Gear a Good Idea?

I've been thinking more and more about this with all the issues with the ToT LFRs.  I just do not have the time to be running all my alts through them to get reputation so I can buy valor gear to keep them slightly up to date should I ever need to use them in a raid.

I can valor cap two characters in the time it takes me to run the ToT LFRs on one character and that one character not even be close to capped.  Doing the LFRs is not an effective way to play.

The concept that you need to raid to buy valor gear which is subpar to the real raid gear makes no sense. 

On my raiding characters I get raid drops, which are better than the valor gear.  So that is a fail on blizzards part.  They should have at least had valor gear for every single slot, weapon included, so perhaps you can use the valor gear to fill that piece or two you are having issues with.  It is almost like you are saying, you need to have better gear to be able to buy this lesser gear.  Excuse me?

On my non raiding characters valor gear has always served the purpose of being there as a catch up mechanic because they are not raiding and thus do not have the better gear.  So they get valor gear where ever they can to catch up should I need them.

But now, I need to raid to get the valor gear.  Okay, they have the LFR but is that really a reasonable option.  Even with 100% smooth runs it will take up at least 6 hours to do all four and most likely a hell of a lot more if you want to include wipes which you know will happen and wait time.

Is 6 hours really worth it?  You have no choice if you want to gear up those non raiding alts.  You not only need to valor to buy the valor items but you need the reputation and the only way to get it is in the raid. 

What was the motto for this expansion?  Choice.  All about giving us choices.

Hey blizzard, where are my choices?

Right now the only choices are to do the raid and shut the fuck up or to not gear up.  Sorry, those are not acceptable choices.

I want to be able to pop on my mage twice a week, do 15 minute heroics, build some valor slowly, and buy a new piece every few weeks.  I do not want to be forced to spend 6 hours a week in the LFR to get reputation and valor so I can buy them.

This is extremely alt unfriendly.  When will blizzard get the idea that valor gear is a catch up mechanic.  Valor gear is NOT for raiders.  Maybe to fill a spot here and there, but being it does not offer every slot it fails horrible at that role too.  Valor gear is for alts.  Valor gear is for non raiders.  Valor gear is for casual players to build up slowly.

So why make valor gear require the LFR for those people?  Why make it require a reputation that if you actually had that reputation from raiding the real raid, you wouldn't need any of that gear really?  Why make it so those non raiders, those alts that do not want to raid and those casual players that do not have hours on end to spend in the LFR can't get the gear that is meant for them?

Did blizzard once again totally miss the concept of what valor gear is meant for?

Maybe it is just me and my assessment of what valor gear is, is wrong.  When I talk about valor gear this is what I think of it as.  A way to fill in spots you have had bad luck with in a raid, or a way for non raiders, time restrained player and new players to catch up so they can start to raid.

Maybe I am wrong with my definition of it.  Because according to blizzard valor gear is only for raiders.  I do have one question however.  If valor gear is only for raiders, how about making it better so it is worth buying.  If it is not better than raid drops, then it is not for raiders.  Common sense there if you ask me.

Give the valor gear to the people it is meant for, the non raiders, and remove the need for a raid reputation to get it.  That is what I think.


  1. Rep and Valor do not go together. It was bad when it was based on daily rep and it is still bad when it is based on raid rep.

    Previously, people could cap w/o doing dailies and then have nothing to spend their valor on.

    Now, people can cap w/o doing LFR/raids and then have nothing to spend their valor on.

    In both cases, the player-base is forced into a certain path and there are a lot of people who don't like being forced to do dailies or being forced to do LFR.

    Blizz needs to go back to the old model and quit trying to fix things that aren't broken. Oftentimes, I feel like we're all just part of a big social experiment because I can't find any logical reason for a lot of the changes Blizz makes.

    1. Blizzard keeps making decisions that sound good on paper. On paper they want people to raid, so tying to gear to raiding will make them raid. Sounds good. Isn't good.

      They need to figure out what works and run with it instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

  2. Actually, I find that this new design finally manage to do what valor gear was suppose to be.

    Valor is meant to fill up the slots you were unlucky on drop for raider, and raider ONLY.

    Not alt, not player that have no time, RAIDER.

    Sure it lacks some pieces but for exemple giving a weapon on valor would be quite OP for some classes.

    Valor for alt will be usefull come 5.3 for upgrading gear.

    1. But it does not do that. Not even close to doing that. Not for everyone at least.

      If you happen to be unlucky with the chest piece or gloves, fine, it works for you. If you happen to be unlucky with the weapon or bracers it doesn't.

      If valor gear is going to be fill in gear for raiders than all slots should be available with valor gear. If all slots are not available then it is not intended to be a cover up mechanic for bad luck with drops.

      Yes, I agree that is what it was originally intended to be but it has never once filled that role adequately.

    2. Also, the valor will be useful for an alt idea come 5.3 is flawed.

      Upgrading 463 gear is not going to help people. They can do dailies and upgrade 489 or 496 gear and still be WAY behind or raid and upgrade 522 gear because the only way to get 522 gear of any sort is raiding. So the alts still need to raid. It is not an option for alts.

      Raid or die.

    3. (different anon)

      You're using a circular argument here (combining this with a later comment you made), it's derailing your original point. Yes, it's difficult to keep multiple toons progression-raid geared, that point stands, but it's not supposed to be easy to have multiple cutting-edge toons. It never really has been... when they've come out with new 5-mans in the past they gave previous-tier-level gear, not current-tier. The equivalent today would be i489/i496 and it's NOT difficult to have multiple toons at that level. I have a toon that I really only started gearing up 3 weeks ago that's sitting at i499 and hasn't had particularly good luck with drops. And that's not about maintaining a toon, that's about basically starting from scratch and paying attention to what I spend my VP on and where to use my bonus tokens.

      Complaining that you don't want to have to raid to get alts raid-ready is just silly. Blizz has ALWAYS been clear that they'd prefer that raiders get their gear from raiding... anything else is sub-optimal by design.

      Weapons have NEVER been available for points, as far as my memory serves, although in Cat I think you could get OH weapons for some dual-wield classes (I think I got a dagger for my rogue that way). That's the only example I can think of. There have also always been one or two slots per tier (or expansion) that haven't been available as VP gear... I recall shoulders being especially bad in the past (I had actual raiding toons with shoulders from multiple tiers earlier... still managed to do my job), along with helms.

      Seriously, having to run LFR to get the rep to be able to buy the i522 VP gear? Not a big deal. A bit annoying, sure, and I'd be happier if they got that concept out of their system this expansion and it never comes back, but I don't have any sort of fundamental issue with it. It's an inconvenience, nothing more. If you aren't actually wanting to raid with a toon, what the heck are you trying to get it raid-ready for?

    4. I am not even talking cutting edge. I am talking raid ready for a casual raid. 500-505 starter gear.

      It is still brutally hard to gear a character if you do not make any special efforts.

      You are at 499 in 3 weeks, congrats to you. I have 7 alts that have run multiple things killed every world boss, cleared the new raid in LFR and even dabbled in the real raid for a kill here and there, and they are still not even 490.

      Just because you had luck with drops doesn't mean that is how it works.

      Tell that to my DK. 16 bosses a week, 16 tokens a week, 8 weeks, 1 piece of gear. Sure, I can buy some craftables. I can do some open raid runs of the real raids. There is stuff I can do. But it is an alt, I will not go out of my way for it. So I buy one new piece with valor whenever I can. That it, and that will not get me to 499.

      I have no problem with raiding to get gear. Just make the LFR so that it does not turn into a one hour wait fest to get into a two hour wipe fest and I will not give a crap.

      Or bring back the 10 and 25 lock outs on separate lock outs and make ToT normal roughly the difficultly of the LFR version is now before they nerf the crap out that version and let the pugging begin. Oh how I miss doing ICC on 5 different character every week because there were pugs going 24/7 on my mostly dead server.

      If a mostly dead server can have pugs going day and night and people were having a great time with it it makes you wonder, why did they change that?

      As for what I want to be raid ready for, I just use that as a saying, for the current item level of "reasonable starter gear" which I consider 500 item level at the moment.

      I want to be raid ready because it is easier to farm leather on my rogue with a 500 item level than it is with a 440 one. It is easier for me to kill rares on my priest in shadow spec while wearing all my healing gear in 510 gear than it is in 440 gear. It is easier for me to do the island dailies, the solo scenarios, help others with quests or mobs or dungeons, or allow me to solo content. Gear is what the game is all about when it comes to personal progression. It makes everything easier.

      Raid ready is just a term for the current level of gear. And I want all my alts, every last one of them, to be raid ready.

  3. I totally agree, Grumpy. My issue is right now due to real life I don't have time to even gear up my main, a DK, through the 4 LFRs. I have about the same luck with time and bad groups as you. I think I calculated as a human, I need around 85 more boss kills in those LFRs to get to exalted.
    I've just been trying to do the first 2 every week, if I'm motivated to sit there for a few hours.
    If rep wasn't tied to valor in this patch, I'd just do a heroic daily and scenario every day, that puts you at almost the 1000 for the week. But right now there's no sense in my getting valor if it's tied to the raid.

    I'm at 500 ilevel right now, I don't need any valor from the 5.0 reputation factions or Shieldwall or Kiron Tor, so what else can I do for gear? As far as I know, nothing. I'm tied to running those LFRs.

    LFR was supposed to be for the very casual WoW player to see new content, have fun, get in there real fast, and be over with. I think this reputation to the raid was a way to appease hardcore raiders to give them a sense of satisfaction or just an incentive and reward for their work in Throne. Well, like you have said, the majority of WoW does not raid. So why cater to those players so much with LFR and rep and valor tied in.

    And my alts? I got a healer, and the queues are fast, but that doesn't erase the bad groups I get and just the overall motivation of getting in there.

    Do you think if they would have made it like the last major patch, say give people a goal to do the LFRs, such as getting to 460, then 470, then 480, it might not be as bad for motivation?

    I guess my biggest point is if WoW is so focused on the casual player, and those who can't play as much right now as myself, why do this reputation with gear tie in for this patch? I can spend, like you said, those 6 hours and get myself valor capped for the week easily, and do LFR if I want to. It's a choice, right? That's what MoP is supposedly about, choices? Well in this case it's not.
    I'm sick of people saying dailies are our choices to do, etc etc. And they're right. But just not with this patch and LFRs.

    Sorry for the rant. Keep up the good work.

    1. They want people to raid so badly that they are forcing people into it.

      Instead of making raiding more appealing for non raiders they made it harder for them and then tied something to them that made people feel forced to do them.

      Not is not really a smart way to get people into something. Make it easier for them to get into it and they will.

      Let them buy 522 gear to do LFR. Yes, most of the player base actually NEEDS 522 gear to do LFR. The average player can not do enough DPS to break themselves out of a paper bag.

      WoW is not focused on the casual player any more. Not even close to focused on it. Anyone that ever uses the line that wow is catering to the casuals is really missing the concept of what casual means. WoW is anything but catering to casuals. If anything it is making every single effort it can to chase them all away.

  4. Yep current Valor gear is to fill in for raiders only they have even said this a few times. It's not a catch up mechanic for alts even though some players use it like that. That being said old valor gear is for catch up so the previous valor tier is for your alts. I wouldn't be surprised if they gave another way of gaining the rep in 4.4 for alts much like they did for all the other valor factions in this patch. As in you have a choice do the rep grind or use your farm, run a dungeon or scenario or kill some world boss's for the old rep.

    1. I'll say the same I did to the other anon that said the same thing.

      If valor gear is meant as a fill in for raiders it fails at it completely. Unless all slots are offered, it is not meant as a fill in for raiders.

      Being only some slots are offered it is meant for the non raider to get a few pieces here and there to help them catch up. It is not meant for the raider to fill in, at least not the way it is implemented.

    2. It works just fine agai. Just because you think it doesn't make it so there are multiple blue posts out there saying that it is to fill in gaps. I didn't say it was logical nor did I say it's good design. It is what it is. Next raid teir they will make it so you can get the 522 gear easier for your alts so they can catch up. Personally I'm with you I think it's stupid and bad design to make it so hard on casuals and alts.

    3. Their "opinion" vs my "opinion". Guess which side I am going to be on.

      Just because a blue post gives their "opinion" doesn't make it right. They are just saying the way they feel about it. Just like I am.

      Not saying you specifically, but there are so many people that quote blues as if it is fact. The statements they made on valor gear were their opinion.

      If you need a weapon and you can not get a weapon, then valor does not fill the gaps, no matter what the opinion of the blues might be.

  5. This gear is for filling 5.2 gear gaps. Alts don't need it. My only issue is that it takes a lot of to many runs to reach exalted. 8 weeks of full raids is 3 weeks to many.

    1. Alts do need it.

      Just because your alts don't doesn't mean alts don't need it. Sorry, but saying alts don't need it because yours don't does not make it true.

      I have not raided once yet on my rogue this expansion, but if I wanted to I want him to be geared to do so. So he needs it. Simple as that.

      And yes, it will take a long time to reach exalted but I do not mind that so much. Reps should not be maxed out in 2 weeks. That makes it feel like cheating. I just happen to be unlucky that the only slot I have a crap piece in is the one slot that exalted would offer me. Oh well, my luck always sucked, why change now. lol

  6. If VP are only for raiders, then why is it rewarded from dailies, dungeons, and all the other non-raid places? Am I not supposed to be able to spend it because "I'm not a raider". I'm sorry but that's an asinine idea. and patently illogical on first thought.

    If VP = Raider, reward it only from raids. If it's useless for non-raiders, then give those of us who aren't raiders some reward that we an actually use.

    1. I agree. Valor gear is for people that do not raid or can not raid regularly to feel as if their character is still progressing on a personal level.

      As you pointed out, if you can cap without raiding, why should you need to raid to spend the points. Perfect, could not have said it better.

    2. Do regular raids (not LFR) even give VP? I don't know, I've only done FL once while it was current content, so I don't remember.

      If they don't, that's the final nail in the VP = raider argument.

    3. Yes they do, but not a lot. And you can not run it multiple times or in many cases, like on my server, on multiple characters, because there is no pug on my server that has even managed to down the first boss.

      The bosses are just too difficult to be pug friendly. Even if you could get past the first boss, you would die a slow and painful death on the second in a pug.

  7. Blizzard has eviscerated (my main is a rogue :P) the fun out trying to progress your alts gear in this expansion. As a player will 5 lvl 90s, 11 slots used and only one toon under 85 (panda monk). I find it physically painful to try to progress my alts gear. They've become purely for trade skills. I find even valor capping my main to be quite a stretch to make fun and interesting. I'd still prefer a new tier of 5 mans to fill the gear gap. I'm completely over rep grinds in Mists - they used to be largely optional for alts but they compulsory in Mists. At least I'm on track for the 1,000,000 daily quests achievement.

    1. I am in the same boat. I have been trying to keep 5 characters raid ready and have had no time to level others. Heck, I have no time to keep those 5 raid ready. There is just not enough time in the day for someone that works. And I play a lot. I feel really bad for the people that do not play as much as I do and I would guess that is a huge percentage of the player base. If I can not keep my alts in a happy place gear wise, how the hell can they do it?

      I think blizzard wants people to quit their job if they want to have more than one character maxed on gear.

  8. I can see the point that other commenters have made. About catchup for alts being previous tier. Now I only started playing at the tail end of wrath so I don't really know how it was handled pre-cata. Cata, that is the problem. In Cata (even if it wasn't previously) current tier valor was available for all, not for all slots but it was there. Blizz clearly decided they didn't like that as valor vendors are all quartermasters now.

    I think having the valor gear rep locked isn't useful. I am a raider, nothing cutting edge just 9/12 normal, so no great shakes. Maybe it's my class but I don't like most of the valor gear, what I did like I bought weeks ago. I was sitting at 3k vp last week and nothing I wanted to buy. I'd been raiding and wasting 40vp per boss kill for a few days and there was little I could do.

    I don't valor cap now as there's zero point. I also gave up running LFR do the extra rep from the bosses I'm not getting on normal. The valor gear is that bad for me. A tank, a raider and not interested in the gear at all. I have sub 522 items but the itemisation on the valor gear is so bad what's the point in it?

    So my point is "if valor gear is for raiders shouldn't it actually be attractive to raiders?" I'm by far the only one in my raid group with max vp and nothing to buy. I'm not logging my main outside raiding now, something that blizz has been trying to stop.

    Tie valor gear to rep if they have to but make that reputation not just raid based. If they have a raid based rep (like the Firelands one) have it sell 1-2 pieces for gold. If they want the stuff to be locked for a long time then cap how much rep is possible in a week or something. Just don't tie it to LFR which well has so many of it's own problems.

    I agree with other commenters that blizz wants to take a step back from where they were in cata. Maybe people choose a main and have if best geared, no more multiple raid chars. However guess what? A lot of people got used to that, liked that, made it integral to their gameplay and still try to do it. Can blizz really afford to punish these people for playing the game how they like?

    1. I agree that if they want to make raid reputation based gear it should be gold based like firelands. That makes more sense.

      No offense to those commenters but I do not care if blizzard wants to take a step back and they are okay with it, I am not.

      You can not give an employee a raise and then say, nope, decided against it and take it back. You can not tell me, for two full expansions, that you want me to have as many alts as I can handle and then say, nope, we now want you to use one character only.

      They need to just figure out what game they want to be and be it.

      If this is the model they want. Keep it. If the alt model is the one they want. Go back to it. But pick one model and stick with it.

      Why ever change it, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Someone should tattoo that on ghostcrawlers head for gods sake.