Tuesday, March 24, 2015

Warlords Missing Ingredient: Forward Motion

I will start this post off by giving the standard disclaimer because a lot of what I am going to be talking about here is my personal opinion and experiences and what I personally like in games.  It might be close to or far off from what you play a game for but I hope that I am able to convey what I believe is missing from warlords in a way that even if you do not agree you will understand where I am coming from when I talk about it.

When I was playing with warlords on the beta I kept saying there was a lack of content at 100.  I kept thinking they would add more before the game was released because it was impossible to think the game would be released with such a limited array of things to do at max level.  I was wrong.

But I believe, now at least, that it is not so much the things that are missing such as daily quest hubs, "normal" reputations, scenarios, flight, etc that is what the expansion is missing.  Sure it would be nice to have them all and having them all would help with what is really missing from this expansion, but they, themselves being gone, are not the problem.

The problem with warlords is the lack of feeling like you are moving your character forward.

That is it in a nutshell for me.  Going into yet another reset with the same gear, for the most part, that I had 6 weeks ago, save one or two pieces maybe, and knowing that the only way I will get anything is completely up to the random number generator is what is killing the game for me.

Let me go into the time machine and take your through a history, minor one, of me with playing games.  I won't bog you down with a lot of example, just two, but thinking about these games I have played in the past made me realize what is missing from warlords.

Over the years I have played a ton of browser based game while at work.  Can't play something like warcraft there, it is too involved.  But some point and click stuff on a browser works wonders for me.  I played a near countless number of games.  Most of those the browser based games that some call pay to win.  Some I have spent a little on, some I have not spent a cent on.  Spending or not, each and every one of them had ran its course and I quit.  I quit only to move on to the game game similar to it.  They are all the same really, in one way or another, just as LotR, Rift, WildStar, FF, etc are all the same as wow.  Basic concept similar, implementation slightly different.

So what made me quit all those games?  The same exact thing.  As soon as I stopped feeling the forward motion, feeling the character develop, moving forward, getting stronger, making advances, moving up, I quit the game.

I like to see myself moving forward, feel myself moving forward.  It is one of the reasons I like grinds.  I liked getting the 10,000 bones for the raptor, grinding reputations, etc, all because I can see myself moving forward toward a goal.  When I get that last bone, finish that last quest or kill for the reputation gain that shifts me over to exalted, it is building up toward something, it is moving forward.  Once I stop moving forward, I start to lose interest.

This is where I am now in warcraft.  With many pieces of gear out there for me to move forward with, but absolutely none of them within my reach, thanks for bad luck and a random number generator that just won't forget I called its mother fat some years back and still hates me and the fact I will never get to see mythic content because I do not have a group of 20 players that can do it and it is not cross realm.  This all means my only way to move forward now is locked behind a door called luck, and I do not have the key.

Now to those games, and their story.  One of those games I got really into.  I spent a little, about fifty bucks at the start, to get me going but then once I had started I became a wheeler dealer.  Making trades, partnerships, alliances, you name it.  I was able to work the game better than I had ever worked a game before.  The game was out for nearly two years before I joined, so I was just a droplet of water in an ocean of players when I started.  But I kept working, I kept doing my thing, and I went above and beyond to see how far I could get.  I was so bad I even set my alarm clock so I could check in more often.  Didn't want to miss a thing.

It took me over a year, but with dedication, hard work, and lots and lots of trading, and I was poised as one of the strongest players in the game.  I kept going, because I kept seeing myself moving forward.  I went up to the point where I managed something that the creator of the game did not even think was possible.  I neared god mode.

There was a bounty system in the game and for fun one of my friends put a bounty on me to see how many people they could get to attack me and lose.  Some 4000+ PvP battles later against challengers, even being ganged up on my multiple people constantly, I could not be beaten, I could barely be touched.  I had reached god mode.

What did I do?  Did I keep going, did I keep pushing to remain the strongest the game has ever seen?  Nope.  I quit the game.

There was no where to go.  No where to move forward.  I reached the end of the game even if the game had no end, because in my mind there was no moving forward any more.  I was at the forwrd point, people were now moving toward me.  There was no carrot on a stick to keep me going.  Here was a game I spent some money on, I spent serious time on, serious effort on, so much so that I woke up in the middle of the night just so I did not miss anything, and I just quit.  I quit because I didn't feel like I was moving forward any more.  When I left the game the creator redesigned it so that no one would be able to attain what I did, even if they tried to repeat what I did to get there.

Another example is a game I am current playing.  I've spent nothing at all on this one.  As a matter of fact I really like it.  It is a great game to play at work.  Nothing is timed so I can step away whenever I need to and not miss anything.  I've been playing it for two months now and I keep moving up.  This is one of those new generation pay to win games however, not like the one I mentioned.  This one gives the people that pay a huge boost instead of just a simple increased energy bar so you did not need to log on as often like the previous one I mentioned.  So I will never catch any of them, or I shouldn't.

But I am, or should I say was, moving forward nicely.  Each day I log in, I do my things, I can see my character getting slightly stronger.  I get further in the endless battle, where waves of mobs keep coming until you die, I move up the PvP ranks in one on one and tournament, my battle rating keeps rising, my rankings for weekly honor and silver keep moving higher, and over all I can feel myself moving forward.  But only two months in and I already feel the slow down, the painful slow down, and I am starting to lose my desire to log in.  The steps forward keep getting smaller and smaller.  I see it getting to the point soon where I will not even notice I am moving forward.  Sure, I will be moving forward, but in such small increments it will start losing its attraction because I won't feel like I am moving forward.  I will most likely be quitting before I finish the third month of playing at this rate.

Once the feeling of forward motion stops, or starts slowing to a crawl, it is time to move on.  It has been the way I have handled each and every one of these games that I have played while at work.  I enjoy them for a few months, they slow down, I quit and move on.

I just used those two as an example because I can probably go through 50 or more games I have played like that over the years.  When I stop feeling the forward motion, I quit and move to the next thing.

That is the feeling warlords is giving me.  A feeling of not moving forward.  The story does not feel like it is moving forward.  My character with bad luck does not feel like it is moving forward.  My alts, being I do not have time to pug raids, even with the group finder as there is only so much time in a day, do not feel like they are moving forward.  I feel stagnant.  That is not a fun feeling.

If it were not for the fact I am so invested in the game in other ways, time, money spent for all these years, buying mount and pet trading cards and in game mounts, my guild, the friends I've made, and the history of all I have done, I would have already dropped this game just as easily as I dropped all those others I played, even the ones I did spend a fair deal of cash on only to walk away if not for those additional connections that keep my playing the game.  I would have walked away because I do not feel as if I am moving forward.

I figured out what could fix the game for me.  Valor.

Seriously, something that simple would fix everything for me.  Have it use the same criteria as garrison missions do.  You buy xxx level gear and once you kill X number of bosses at one level you can now buy xxx level of gear.

That would mean, even with my bad luck, if I log in each week and keep busy and valor cap, I have a feeling as if I am moving forward.  I know that even if I kill 8/10 again this week and win nothing I will have collected valor.  Maybe in another week or two I might be able to buy one piece of gear.

Even when it gets to the point where I do not need any valor gear I will still have the feeling of moving forward by the fact I could exchange my valor into conquest and start my PvP set.  I would also feel like there is once more a reason to play my alts.  I could now do things with them to get valor and slowly gear up that way.

If I hit a wall gear wise on an alt I could then make some time to get into pugs because there would be more motivation to do so.  Right now the only motivation is really to get some kills and then maybe, just maybe, win something.  Which the way things have been going I would not count on.  But I would get the better cache in time, which is little, but that is not much motivation as that is one piece every 2 or so week, and that too is hindered by being random and knowing you can get the same piece 4 times in a row, so that is no way to gear up.  However, if it upped the gear I could buy with valor, I once again have motivation to play my alts.  I once again have motivation to pug with my alts.  I once again have more reason to log in whereas right now I don't because I do not feel myself moving forward.

I am at a wall, my alts are at a wall, the game has become stagnant, it is just sitting there doing nothing but waiting for me to log in on raid night, kill a few internet dragons, get nothing from it, and then wait until next week to do it again.

No forward motion at all.  The game has completely stalled.  Valor could fix that.

I said it when they originally announced that they were removing valor that I did not believe it would not be a good idea.  For me the realization has come, even if I had already known it, that removing valor was the worst move they ever did for this expansion for a player like me, one addicted to moving forward, even at a slow rate, as long as I am moving forward, because valor offered relief from the game getting stagnant.  It helped you feel as if even if you did not win something you were gathering a resource from the work done that would buy you something.  Add into that the new idea from blizzard to increase rewards based on a set number of kills, that makes valor even more valuable, if you ask me.

If they added that kill number increasing rewards it would mean that valor would remain attractive much much longer.  While valor was always the motivating factor for my alts to help gear them up, on my main it was usually useless in short time, and I started to convert it to conquest.  But with this new system valor would serve a greater purpose for my main and an increased purpose for my alts, more so even when you consider it might get me to pug more on my alts as well.

Over all the missing ingredient in warlords is not flight, that was removed, it is not scenarios, that were removed, it is not mythic being locked for only large groups now, it is not the lack of daily quests, that were removed, it is the loss of valor and its removal because valor was what helped, me at least, feel as if I was moving forward.

In all other expansions when I am "done" with my main, like I am on my hunter now basically outside of raid night, I always "kept moving forward" by gearing alts with valor.  Without valor, I am not moving forward, and without forward motion, there really is no reason to play the game.

That is where I think warlords made its one critical error.  Not the removal of flight, scenarios daily quests or any other debated argument people come up with for why warlords feels blah.  Warlords feels blah because it is blah.  It lacks sufficient forward motion.  At least for me it does.


  1. You nailed it on the head. I mentioned in a previous post of yours that a currency (any currency) would give an incentive to doing things. Random Heroic for 30 gold? Not even worth the effort (not going to even pay for the repairs: how about nullify damage to gear if you que up for random?? along with gold?).

    I hit 100 Saturday morning on my main. Working real hard to get raid ready and managed 627 (mind you this is my main on a server with no other toons to support and without a guild because I am in the midst of transferring servers). I hit up all wings of Highmaul LFR and won two 640 items. I have the legendary 640 ring. But this game was based on grinding and time.

    Back in MOP, I leveled a warlock from scratch on a server without BOA's and had him to level 90 and at 480 i-level in 7 days. Lots of luck on gear drops. Doing something similar here is damn near impossible, even if you could afford to buy gear items.

    We need a currency. You can only dangle a carrot in front of the folks that need the legendary quest items and Inn quests so long (the rest aren't worth doing in most cases. UBRS is especially nasty to groups that are new).

    Let me finish by adding that level 100 dungeons (non-heroic) are probably the most difficult dungeons to complete as there is no gear level minimum. Add unfamiliarity to that equation and you have wipe after wipe and tanks/healers leaving. I did the running train and "Joe Tank" kept pulling every add in each train car because that was how he tanked everything. We wiped multiple times. The tank left and we got another tank that did the same thing. If I didn't need the gear in there so bad and hadn't waited so long, I would have left too.

    CURRENCY!! We need valor or marks or something. Even game show contestants that lose get a consolation prize. If you volunteer your time and repair bill, you should get something from participating. MMO's are starting to feel more and more like real jobs. When they suck the life out of you and you look forward to going to work, then you know you need to quit.

    Grumpy, if you need a break, take it. It's not like you are missing anything in game. The next raid patch will bring you back and you can have fun running up hill again.

    1. Yeah, their whole "extra gold" idea is really a joke. First off, 30 "extra gold" for a heroic is not an incentive. If they wanted to use gold as a motivating factor, they would need to start selling gear for gold. Gold is not, has not, and never will be a motivating factor at those tiny numbers.

      The problem is that the carrot this expansion is tied to the random number generator. For many, or at least for me, that is not much of a carrot. I would rather have set goals to work toward. I would rather have the feeling as if I am moving forward.

      Even the idea of kill x bosses to get heroic then kill x heroic bosses to get mythic does nothing for me being random is attached to it.

      Do you know how many upgrades from highmaul my main has received from the "random" boxes? One. You know which one that was? The highmaul box I got before highmaul was even released. I have not received an upgrade from it since, and this is including having been getting mythic boxes for as far back as I can remember.

      Currency is a motivator, RNG is not. I am sick of RNG. I am tired of RNG. If I never had to experience RNG ever again I would be happy.

      I would take a break but if I did I would never come back. If I did not return to a game which I was like a god in, where everyone knew me and I was internet famous there, why would I return to this one where I am just another nobody? I don't return to games, I leave when I am done.

      I could leave and maybe come back, but it would be to check things out, see some changes, but I would never return to where I am now in game. The expression is wrong, you can not go home again.

      I stay because I still believe there is hope for the game. I stay because as much as I dislike some things I still like the game over all.

      I'll just do my little vacations where all I do is log on for raid and then leave. That is, and has been, how I take my breaks. Hey, I am a raider, what can I say. I have not missed a raid night (that I had control over) in over 5 years.

      I think it is more a case of blizzard needs to get their house in order more than anything else. But yes, a break can't hurt.

  2. Well you know I agree. A points system, something where there was measurable accomplishment, would change everything. I could login, I could see what I had got from the session, I could say to myself "in x sessions time I can buy x gear". There would be clear measurable progress.

    However, having currency isn't enough. There was currency in Mists but in my opinion it was implemented in such a way that it might as well not have been there at all. I wonder, if blizz's data on how many bought currency gear, influenced the complete removal of points in Warlords.

    In many ways I would argue that they removed points in Mists. Oh I know they existed but they were locked behind reputations. Beyond the fact that they were locked, the gear they offered wasn't worth it. By the time my main had got all the reputations I didn't need any of the gear.

    They didn't introduce the reputation tokens, or the championing system until later. By the time my most played alt got there, we were into the next patch and they didn't upgrade the gear. Instead they had a new vendor, locked behind a raid reputation this time, and that just sunk it. I don't raid on alts.

    If they introduced currency then I would certainly hope it would be obtainable from some other content than raiding. It could be the reason to run dungeons. Though I would want a weekly system, not a daily one. Have it run the dungeon 7x whenever, not once a day. Furthermore the vendor would need to be accessible, no double gating the gear. Beyond that the gear would need to be worth it. I'm thinking LFR level so people don't complain too much.

    Even better have two forms of currency again, justice and valor. Offer last tier for justice, and current tier for valor. Cap the valor to a certain amount a week so they can keep progress slow, so people don't go crazy and then demand more content. I'll accept that as it's still clear and measurable progress.

    So yeah the game needs currency again badly. It is something that would change everything. However, it has to be done the right way. Simply having the currency isn't enough. I mean there's gear for apexis crystals right? But that's not workable how it's implemented. Currency is good but only if it's accessible.

    1. It is something that gives the player (namely me in this example) a feeling as if they are moving forward.

      Oddly enough, even if the feeling is a false feeling, it is still a good feeling. You are aiming for something worthwhile to get. Even if I am out of things I can use valor on, I would do it for conquest gear. Not like I need conquest gear as I do not PvP really, but like I said, even if I just feel there is some sort of forward movement, it feels good.

      A point system offers that feeling because, as you said, it is something you can check, plan, and see.

      If they reintroduced currency it would be nice to see them add back dailies and scenarios as additional ways to get said currency.

      Mists had its issues, as you mentioned, and they did mess it up a bunch, but the last tier there was no valor gear what so ever. It was just for upgrades only. But at least there was something. You knew every week that you could upgrade what you had. But that was the beginning of the end. Because that too was RNG based. What if I have won nothing to upgrade? Then the valor is useless again. They need to add useful things. Things that do not have anything to do with RNG like item upgrades.

      Do not even mention the gear from apexis crystals. It is horrible gear, horribly over priced, horrible item level, and insanely expensive for how bad it is. Crystal gear might have been an attempt to replace valor. Simply put. It failed. It failed so hard it probably hurt other games too and not just wow, that is how bad it failed.

    2. Apexis Crystals are the currency, they just need a 'few' tweaks.

      1. Half the cost of all the gear and upgrades for a start, the price is just ridiculous.
      2. 400 crystals for first heroic each day (or 7 per week)
      3. Reroll secondary stats for 500 crystals.
      4. Make the top 'tier' equal ilvl to current heroic gear.

      Job done.

    3. That, in part, could help it.

      I would also rather them ditch the upgrading idea all together. Just make the higher levels cost more, no need to have the previous one. The gear itself makes no notation it is apexis gear, people can and have sold it off only to see later they needed it to upgrade it. It would only work as is if it were noted on the gear that it is apexis gear 1/4 or something like that. An easy enough fix but I still seriously dislike the upgrading idea they have for it.

  3. My method to combat this boredom is to quit the game until the next patch/expansion. I learned this painful lesson with that one year deal they offered a while back at the end of cataclysm.

    1. Oddly enough I did not mind the end of cataclysm as bad as most. Did not really like cataclysm over all but the fact I could reach max level and get into DS as soon as I did and actually complete it easy even in a pug made it so I wanted to level and gear up alts as something to pass the time.

      A break does sound good however.

  4. As a self declared casual player, the loss of valor is huge! My main is currently running around with a 644 average ilevel and a i620 PVP belt. Sure I could tailor a new belt for me, but the best options are rare world drops, upgraded apexis crystal items or rare garrison mission drops. #5 (according to Ask Mr Robot) is boss drop from the Iron Maidens, (then #8 is Gruul).

    I miss Valor for these opportunities. I suppose appexis crystals are the replacement, but obtaining them is not "fun". If say, the crystals dropped off all dungeon/raid kills, or all level 99+ kills, or all kills while carrying this handy crystal magnet in my bags, or ...

    sadly, what will happen is I'll work to gather the 20,000 apexis crystals so I can buy the 630 and then 650 belt, then run LFR BRF and grab both the gruul and iron maiden belts. 2 steps forward then one step back.

    1. The crystals were implemented very poorly and the item selection it offers is nothing spectacular either. I believe they could have done better with the crystals if that was supposed to be some sort of valor replacement, because it is surely not.

      You nailed why the crystal gear sucks. By the time you save up the insane amount needed for them you could end up getting better elsewhere and then you just "wasted" all those other crystals on the first few pieces.

  5. I think they are very aware of the issue. Remember how they suddenly changed the iL for BRF gear the other week. That was specifically because people had little motivation to keep running it. The gear was no better in iL, so what was the point?
    I still haven’t run BRF as a tank because until the change, there was little impetus to push me toward pugging the raid until I had gotten my weapon from heroic HM (best in slot in HM and not BRF). That lack of motivation to push BRF by many was seen, so Blizz bumped the iL. They grasp that people want to see “progression” in their characters; for some reason they choose the least friendly way to do it - RNG.

    Like you, I fail to understand why they eliminated valor gear – the easiest way to make a person feel like a character is improving when the RNG fails. I can only presume that the accountants are now running the company and have dictated that to recoup raid development costs they must maximize throughput in raids. They want you back in the raids week after week fighting the RNG, trying to keep your subscription as long as possible (at least in their minds).

    As a result, the money Blizz spent on making dungeons is now wasted for the most part, as no one I know goes into them. I feel sorry for those stuck in 45 minute queues, but blame Blizz. I want something for my trouble if I am going to tank a random dungeon; a baggy with gear that I don’t need will not do it – but valor did and would again. I want to feel some momentum toward improving my character, but do not as it currently stands.

    And yea, I am sorry but I like new gear. The satisfaction of downing new raid bosses only lasts the first couple of weeks.

    1. The BRF gear issue does show they know something is wrong, the sad part is that they basically made HM and BRF two separate raid tiers by doing so, or at least make it feel more like that. And so close together, that is rough for many casual guilds like mine. So they did a "good" thing and a "bad" thing all at once doing that. But I agree, it was needed to make running normal worth it even for the most casual of casual guilds. Otherwise normal was useless.

      I really wish they would step back from the RNG table. The have been eating off it way to much this expansion.

      I see what you mean with "keep their subs as long as they can" but valor does that more than RNG does. Pretend they offered all slots in valor, it would take a minimum of 30 weeks, maybe more, to get all that gear. People will keep coming back for that gear because it is gear they "know" they are getting if they work for it. RNG just pushes people away. Already have had 2 raiders unsub since BRF came out because they were sick of not getting anything in HM and not they felt under geared for the new raid.

      Valor was a great motivator and it kept people playing, and people like me playing alts. Not sure why they removed it. Make zero game play sense and if possible less than zero business sense.

      The satisfaction of downing a new raid boss only lasts for that one day. After you down it, you downed it. No need to ever down it again. Except for loot. And if you don't get and week in and week out... well, you write a post like this. ;)

  6. There was a short time in Mists that I had the highest gear score on my server for a Hunter without doing a single heroic raid. How you may ask. One of the first to finish the cloak quest and lots and lots of Valor.
    It was nice that an average player like me willing to grind a bit could hang with the hardcore raiders as far a gear goes.

    1. And I see nothing wrong with that. You might have not raided "proper" so to speak, but you worked your butt off for that gear and earned that standing and you are damn right, it must feel good that even an average player can get up there. I love having my alts being able to step in and sub thanks to valor, but no more. Gearing a character is a full time job and it only happens if you get lucky.

  7. Grumpy, i have been posting on the forums about the broken loot system since wrath, due to my in ability to see let alone win twins pact on my hunter.
    Blizzard are not and never will be interested in fixing this. I suggested that boss kill tokens to unlock raid gear based on xx number of kills would be a possible solution but all i got was random is random as a response.
    As for this expansion, i have not stepped in to an heroic dungeon other than for the legendary questline, once valor was removed i had no reason to do so, as i can gear up whilst AFK :) in LFR.
    I don't have a guild to raid with due to work commitments, (I work nights) so use the Grp tool to raid and again find the loot system very frustrating, like you say valor is a solution, but i feel the system needs to go further and unlock normal raid loot.
    As for you not getting a ranged weapon yet, i feel your pain. My main did almost the entire of mists with out a raid gun, and this was compounded by the fact i had the legendary gem to go in it from terrace.
    Loot has been a long standing issue and will continue to be so because its based on doing the lottery every week, not actually achieveing anything.

    1. That lottery every week is what they need to fix, be it kill tokens, valor, what have you, something needs to be done. Lottery for gear does not feel fun.

      Had the same problem last expansion with a weapon too. I did not win a weapon in the first tier until 2 days before ToT came out. It is not fun at all.

  8. Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:

    Heh, reading (and having heard...in great detail) your lack of luck with the Random Numbers Generator is a good demonstration of why the RNG system is a poor choice for the best gearing option. It has been a good while since I last raided, but I was always the lucky one with regards to the RNG. Consider how little I carried my shadow priest into Dragon Soul, and yet I wound up with both holy and shadow tier sets with little to no difficulty.

    Maybe it is all attitude. I expect to win anytime I roll for loot, and while I often won't, when it truly matters to me, your roll of 100 will be matched by mine and I will win the roll off...or so I feel at any rate. Of course I have a lifetime of experience playing dice controlled games, everything from Avalon Hill war games and Strat-O-Matic baseball to Dungeons and Dragons. Held the dice dear and close, whispering sweet warnings of dire consequences if they didn't roll right and lo and behold, they gave me the number I wanted.

    Now on the other hand, I have witnessed your poor excuse for luck (weren't for bad luck, ya would have none at all). And after all due consideration, I have decided your problem is how you hold your tongue. Blowing raspberries at the screen constantly for not letting you win just is so upsetting to the poor lil' RNG.

    Really, I mean if I had your luck, my characters would be nude by necessity because their starting rags would have long since worn out and they would never have won any replacements.

    So yea, mark me down for favoring a system like the valor/justice currency system. If for no other reason, so you will stop abusing the poor lil' RNG with all those horrid rolls.

  9. Yes, yes and yes. Back in MOP, people were running scenarios and dungeons, and they did dailies because you could get valor and then gear for the activity (or some upgrades as well).

    I simply hate the damn runes I get from bosses - I would prefer currency points of course. I don't want this 30 gold and 2 runes for a boss kill, I need some progress. It's somehow better with doing Epic Ring questline (they give you this element of pushing forward), but it's so grindy that I'm doing it only for my main for lore sakes.

    Blizzes already have Apexis Crystals - so why not make them this missing currency, coming from bosses in raids and dungeons too?

    Another thing I hate is the missing daily questing hubs. T.ex., if I want to grind for Arakkoa tonight, I can go and get their quests at Spires. If I want some Shatar rep, I go to their plateau hub, etc. This really worked previously, why break it? Tonight's offered random grinding with 1 quest a day is just a mess, which I don't wanna do at all.

    All in all I hope that next xpac will send the Garrison idea to hell.

  10. Totally agree with you on VP! It is the incremental progress, however small that makes such a big difference. Our followers have more content and incentive than us to do their missions, we give them upgrades, they explore the world, and they can play with THEIR friends.

    One of the worst feelings of the currently boring raids is leaving an entire raid with no upgrades. Sure, call it bad luck but throughout most of the WoW we had some sort of minor consolation: Valor.

    We would eye out a few pieces (probably 670's), and slowly accumulate towards them, even 40/4000 VP is better than leaving raid with absolutely nothing at all (except for the fact you managed to kill stuff with a sane group of people).

    Then again their argument would be: "you guys complained of HAVING or being FORCED to max out valor every week!". I think the players who reside in the "there's nothing to do" camp outweigh the "stop forcing us to do content (even though they aren't)" group.

  11. I unsubbed, at the start of wod I saw 25 in my guild now it's 2 or 3. This may be the biggest flop of all. Not just a recycled dungeon, but an entire recycled expac. No thanks.