Thursday, March 26, 2015

Bob, Tom and Dave, Who is Cheating?

Today I am going to present to you a question.  A question I saw mentioned in different ways and not actually as a question on forum posts and blogs around the net for the past few weeks.  It is in concerns to how we will soon be able to buy gold in game with the new game time tokens.

For this question I am going to introduce you to three players.  Bob, Tom and Dave.  Bob and Tom already exist in game and have for a very long time, Dave will exist soon.  So lets get on with the story and then when each persons tale is told I want you to ask the question, is this person cheating.

Say hello to Bob:

I don't have to search far for Bob, don't even need to make up anything about him.  I can give you as much detail about Bob as I want because I know Bob.  I've known Bob for many years, Bob is in my guild.  Many guilds like mine have a Bob or a few just like him.

Bob is a great guy.  He is fun to have around, he is willing to help anyone when they need, he will go above and beyond, no need to even ask.  Short on a few bloods for that upgrade, don't worry, Bob has got you covered.  He will even tell you that you do not need to pay him back.  He is a decent person and a team player even if he understands his team job is riding the bench.

The problem with Bob is that he is a dreadful raider, to put it as nice as possible.  He is the guy you read about that is still having problems with getting the silver proving grounds.  He has been at it for at least 20 hours that I have noticed and probably a lot more.  A little here and there and seemingly never even getting close.  He asks for tips and advice and I am giving him all the help I can, but he just can not get silver in proving grounds.  He tries, he really does.  He is just not a very good player for whatever reason.

He is the type of guy that is always dying to avoidable damage in the raid.  The type of guy that when there is some special ability that if one person gets it they can wipe the team so you hope and pray it does not target him or if it does that you get lucky and somehow only he dies.

He is a great guy, don't get me wrong I really like him, but he is not a raider.  He, actually, is the average warcraft player.  There are more people in game closer to his ability level than the ability level of your average raider.  The most awesome thing about Bob is that Bob realizes that he is Bob.  He knows he is not a raider and he knows that we will not be sending him an invite when the raid time invitations start.

After we have a raid on farm we always invite Bob along.  We let him gear up his character, so that gear goes to someone that needs it.  When we have something on farm we are just killing for fun more than anything else Bob is the first to get an invite, he earned it by being a team player and a ncie guy all around.  He also knows his place, so that if there is someone there that needs something and they are a regular raider Bob would never roll against them.  He is glad to get anything that no one needs and is happy with just that.

Last expansion Bob was so well geared by the end of SoO you would have thought he was a regular raider, but that is more because of the expansion running on as long as it did.  And Bob was never a slacker, he always valor capped, he upgraded his gear, he was gemed, he was enchanted, he was reforged, he was in the right spec with the right stats.  He was just a poor player, but a great guy that really tried.

Basically, Bob got carried.  We carry him because he is our friend.  We will not sacrifice progression to try to squeeze him in, but when we start downing stuff with our eyes closed, we always drag Bob along.  He is one of those guys that when we first killed garrosh we started thinking, when can we get Bob in for a kill, how long until we have it on farm so we can carry him.

So, is Bob cheating because he was carried through a raid?

Say hello to Tom:

Tom can come in a varied number or skill levels.  There are Toms out there that are great players and Toms out there that make Bob look like he is great.

Basically what Tom is is someone that really does not have a great deal of friends in game or on that specific faction or server.  Maybe Tom plays mostly solo.  Maybe Tom is an alt on another server.  Maybe Tom is the one token alliance / horde character someone has.

Tom, while having no guild, no friends, no connections or anything else in game that would help him on the raiding scene does have one thing of value, something he can barter with.  Be it gold, pets to trade, an item someone else wants, or max characters of the other faction that can be used as trading tools.  Sometimes, most times, Tom is a gold goblin, someone that has a lot of gold because they know how to work the auction house.

Toms ability as a player means nothing, I was a Tom once myself.  I don't suck, but I am not great either.  I was doing heroic (now mythic) so wanting to do normal (now heroic) on an alt of the same class I do heroic with really does not seem out of the question does it.  The problem is I do not play horde much and never really had a raiding guild horde side, nor do I have many friends horde side, more so friends I could ask to let me tag along on my baby hordie.  When they added the group finder I started to slowly work my way to getting some gear, but it was hard alone and quite honestly not all that fun alone.

Tom is a barterer.  Tom is a deal maker.  I know when I was a Tom on my horde character last expansion I worked a deal.  I will carry your character through SoO alliance side if you carry my horde character through SoO horde side.  Fair enough right.  I thought so.  One hand washes the other.

Now, at my skill level, I could easily carry my own weight in a pug, but it was so much easier to get into a group when you barter your way in.  No worries about being last in DPS because you have no good gear yet or what have you.  You can stick around no matter what because you basically paid to be there.  I won a few pieces, won two more on rolls, and suddenly, my horde character whom had the legendary cape and not much more outside of a few raid pieces was now sitting pretty with nearly half raid gear.  This made pugs amazingly easier after that.

I bartered carry for carry.  Many Toms, being good gold makers, barter gold for those carries.  They pay for the run just to get the achievement, maybe get some gear, maybe get some experience, whatever their reason for wanting the run, they barter for the run.   They pay for the run with something that they have earned, gold, via the auction house and hard work.  They barter just the same as I did.  I traded carry for carry, they traded gold for carry.

It is easier than trying to find a group that you know can down things with the group finder.  It is guaranteed success.  No waiting hours refilling and waiting for people to get there after each boss.  No waiting hours trying to find a group in the first place.  No waiting hours between pulls because of people stepping away.  No wiping to stupid stuff because of the nature of pugs.  No dealing with asshats.  You pay for a nice, smooth, and full run.  Heck, that sounds so good I wish I could do that on my alts right this very second.

So, did me, as Tom, cheat because I traded an alliance carry for a horde carry?
So, did the average Tom cheat because he paid for his run with gold?

Say hello to Dave:

Dave is a completely fictional character, at least as of the time of this writing.  There are no Dave's in game yet (legally) because you can not buy gold with real cash yet.

See, Dave is the guy with lots of money in real life but very little time on his hands.  He does not have the connections that Bob does by being in a guild that will carry him because they are his friends.  He does not have the gold making knowledge or anything else to barter with like Tom does.  But he does have a boat load of cash and he is not afraid to use it.

In this fictional, but soon to be true, account we see Dave selling his little heart out $20 at a pop trying to amass enough gold so that he can buy some of the things he wants.  Maybe some gear off the auction house, maybe some pets or mounts, maybe even a run in the newest raid, a carry, just like the one Bob got, just like the one Tom got.

Just like with Tom, the actual skill of the player is meaningless.  He could be the greatest player in the world or the worst, it does not matter.  He is paying gold, gold he made by exchanging real cash for it, to get into a group that he can do the run with.

So, is Dave cheating because he was carried through a raid?

That is the question.

Do you think Bob, Tom and Dave where cheating?  Just one or some of them cheating and other(s) not cheating?  Or all off them not cheating?

Interesting question, because the bottom line is Bob, Tom and Dave all did the exact same thing.  All three tagged along with a raid group that could carry them.  How they got into that group is completely irrelevant.  They just went about how they got into that carry differently.  Bob just used him being a friendly person and showing a willingness to wait until we could carry him before he got his carry.  Tom bartered his way into a carry by trading something he had of value like trading a carry for a carry or gold he worked to get for a carry.  Dave bought gold with game time tokens and used that gold to pay for a carry.

Reading around the net and on the forums.  The gist I get from people is that what Bob did was fine, was Tom did sometimes can be considered fine and what Dave will be doing is completely and totally wrong.

What do you think?
Secondly, why is what Dave will do wrong but what Bob did perfectly acceptable?
And one last thing, why do people consider it cheating?


  1. Because people are jealous of those with lots of real life cash.

    I think it basically boils down to that. They either don't have real world cash to do it, or they aren't willing to spend real cash on the game. They want the result but they don't want to spend the money.

    Somehow spending effort/time to amass a lot of virtual currency is more palatable, it's something they could do if they wanted, plus it's then virtual item for virtual item, no drawing in real life, everything is contained within the game.

    Everyones circumstances outside of the game are different, some are rich, some are poor etc. but in game everyone can be equal, or can work to be rich etc. in theory of course. There requires effort, skill and luck to get the in game stuff but it's something people feel they can do, whereas in real life it's not such an even playing field.

    I'm not sure I'm making sense.

    Personally, from my perspective, if someone has the real world funds to spend and they want to do so, then they should go for it. I don't really see how it effects me. I suppose if it does something to the economy and everything gets a lot more expensive gold wise, then that's a pain but vanity items etc. are getting more expensive every expansion.

    The big gold sink mount, that mammoth cost what 20k in wrath? Two expansions later in Mists the price was 120k and that priced me out of the market. I don't complain about that, as it is what it is. I have a list and if I keep playing Warcraft then I will get to it one day.

    I can't play the AH, I have tried but I suck at it. I got all the addons, I followed the guides, I did as much research as I could and it didn't work. I make what gold I have with the salvage yard and running old raids, basically playing the game.

    So yeah I don't consider it cheating but I think other people do because they can't do it themselves. They aren't cash rich in real life or they are unwilling to spend their money, and then they feel like it's unfair that others can/will do so.

    So long as there are different options. Like working hard in game so as to be generous within a guild, make friends and get carried that way. Or work hard in game to get things strangers want and barter for the carry. Or be cash rich in real life and spend the money, to get the gold/items strangers want in order to get the carry. The first two don't require real life funds, so long as there is always an option that doesn't require real life money, then I don't see a problem.

    1. That's quite a big assumption. I have cash, but I have it because I'm good at what I do, I work a lot, which doesn't leave a lot of time left for games. And that means I can afford anything I want, yes, even a boost in a game.

      BUT. This isn't about the idea of not spending money in a game. I bought spectrals and other monts and pets as gifts and so on, so that's not the case.

      But I feel some things are 'sacred'. In real life, people try to get ahead. It's expected. You see it everywhere. People try to get as much as possible with as little effort as possible. This is why corruption exists.

      Games, though, they're supposed to be fun. they're supposed to be 'pure'. Paying for someone to play a game for you, how does that make sense? I feel in games you should be proud of what you achieve, not what you can cheat your way through.

      In my mind, games are supposed to be the one place where you don't have to confront 'real life issues', like cheating, like lying, like bad language, like nepotism, like threats, yet it's even worse than in real life. It's quite obvious games are played by humans, but since it doesn't offer material gains like real life, it seems rather pointless.

      If this was real life, Bob would be someone incompetent at his job but who gets rewarded because people like him.
      Tom is whore who does 'favours' to get in a position he wants. He still "works" for it, no one can deny that, but not the kind of work that would be required to get that certain job. And Tom may be good at it, but it's still not the "right" thing to do.
      Dave would be some guy who buys a spot on being something important and cushy like MEP because he can and that's what makes him happy. He could be ok or he could prove to be totally useless.
      OK, my examples aren't the most thought out, I'm not launching on a debate, I'm just trying to make a point. Which is - would you agree to any of these people in real life? I wouldn't. So why would I agree to them in a game?
      In a game where I expect to see less crap than in real life, not more.

      So jealousy? Hardly.

    2. Basically, I think you're putting to much importance on the correct way to do things and putting in rules when there are none. For instance, a rebuttal on your examples:

      "Bob would be someone incompetent at his job but who gets rewarded because people like him."
      There is also the chance that having him around improves morale, maybe he helps organizes company events or other incidental things, so it is deemed worth it to keep him around (he would be a likely casualty in downsizing though).

      "Tom is whore who does 'favours' to get in a position he wants. He still "works" for it, no one can deny that, but not the kind of work that would be required to get that certain job. And Tom may be good at it, but it's still not the "right" thing to do."
      This is basically the same as the first example except that he does things that help the company (guild) instead of just being likable. You use the easy prostitution angle but that does not benefit the company (guild) while tom's actions clearly do.

      "Dave would be some guy who buys a spot on being something important and cushy like MEP because he can and that's what makes him happy."
      Well no he didn't buy into a company (guild), but into a pug. This is basically investing. You spend money on something with the hope of getting a return (equipment). Or it could be equated to the pug was selling a service (Russian space flights) that someone with money wanted to get into.

      So your point on if I would approve of all of these people in real life is yes.

    3. Actually, the medals conversation below is more relevant as it gets to the crux of the matter (recognition) then this thread. Probably continue that line of conversation as I don't think this line will result in anything.

  2. All are cheating. None worked through wipes to reach a goal that assumes wipes.

    I know a Bob in our guild. She is not happy and she left. She prefers raiding at her skill level instead of "waiting for a handout, like a begger", in her own words. So my Bob is sort of different from your Bob, yet still a Bob, but puts things into perspective.

    In short, I wouldn't do any of the 3, no matter how frustrated I may be at times. Maybe I would understand it from others if I know they were 100% capable of doing it, but me? I'd feel bad. I'd feel like without the 100+ wipes, it's not my merit and therefore I don't deserve it.

  3. I disagree with James completely. None of them are cheating. If what they did was cheating, than any gold dkp run is cheating. I think people who consider this cheating basically can't stand that other people use gold to progress instead of their way. Just like how any elite create abritrary "rules" that allows them to maintain power and status, the "elitists" of wow wants to shift the conversation in a way that benefits them to the detriment of people like gevlon and his gold dkp runs. His achievements were "improper" and "don't count" because he didn't do it the "elite" way.

    The only cheating possible is if you use exploits and hacks because those cannot be done normally. And even exploits sometimes I disagree with. For instance, when people started blowing saurfangs minions off the edge of the building, falling to their dooms, I would have thought that was a valid tactic in pretty much any game. However, it was not intended and it was hotfixed.

    1. I would rather if people make a point to support their own opinion instead of calling someone with a different opinion jealous or elitist.

      For me it's rather simple to figure out what is the 'right' way. If everyone was 'Bob' would they be able to get the kill? No. So that can't be the right way. Basically, all 3 people go to people who CAN do the right way to get what they want. You call it elitist and made up rule. I call it the only way it can actually be done. Yes, even if you pay for it, someone has to do it 'right' for you.

    2. None of them are in a great position and, personally, I wouldn't want any 'achievements' this way - I would rather go without.

      But cheating? No. How can it be cheating if you aren't breaking any rules?

      Under your model the whole auction house would be 'cheating'
      I'm guessing you craft all your own gear and consumables, and of course gather all the materials yourself first.

    3. Well, I didn't mean you specifically but mainly the people who complain on forums all the time on how they should get special treatment because they did it the "proper" way (like someone who complained that their isn't more powerful equipment for pvp 2200 even though unique transmog is available or people who believe LFR shouldn't exist and all the scrubs should just quit instead of having the privilege of seeing the story).

      Also is that cheating? Think about the definition of cheating. If you cheated in chess, you immediately stop the game. If you cheated in baseball, you are immediately suspended. So a hack or exploit is the clear equivalent.

      Also, if everyone was bob, they would be able to get a kill. It would happen either when the next patch/expansion is out, or more likely, blizzard would have lowered the difficulty to the new lower bar so that a sufficient number (in blizzards eyes) of people are able to complete it.

    4. @Wes
      Actually I do craft all my gear and gather my consumables. But that's because I like being self sufficient with and alt army and because I don't think doing AH is fun.
      However, you can't draw a parallel with AH. You're telling me I'm dismissing anything that has to do currencies, which isn't true. Getting boosted means you *win* something, you get awarded some form of recognition, like a medal. Like in sports. In my book, unless you run the laps and come out in one of the first positions, you shouldn't get the medal. Buying the medal is nothing like buying the running shoes. I'm not dismissing the buying of the shoes, just don't think buying the medal is ok

    5. That only matters to people who care about the medals. As gold dkp runs or gold carries show, most people don't care. You can't buy a place on the olympic podium because people see value in that. You can buy a place in a mythic run because people don't care that one more person out of the thousands who run mythic get an achievement and some worthless pixels.

    6. @vinci
      I don't call it cheating equivalent to breaking a toss. I call it cheating in a sense of 'not right', in a sense of 'I wouldn't brag about it if I were being boosted'. There was one guy in the forums who had bought a CM 9/9 gold last expansion and was making a thread, going around telling people they're worthless if they don't have 9/9. When people were replying to him that's not the case, he was just saying short crap like '0/9, your point is invalid, you are jealous'.
      So yes, this is not a 'hard' cheating. I'm sure Grumpy didn't mean it that way either. It's about how it 'feels'. Or that's how I took it anyway.

      Also, Blizz has achievement to mark 'curve', 'cutting edge' and dates, it's still a competition. They're giving out 'medals'. And people buy them, so there's some value to getting things when it's current (or moreso, as early as possible) to some people. To others, not so much.

    7. Basically, there is no medal, the only real medal that is recognised is to buy into a place onto one of the top guilds and then the medal would be "world's first kill". These other medals you speak of are basically the participation trophies of games. Especially since WOW isn't even that hard compared to other games.

    8. *here's the thread

    9. Ok now we have varying definitions of cheating. This is where language breaks down and no one knows what anyone is talking about. We need another word for it and it would be... cheesing?

      There actually really is not much of a point in debating the definition of cheating because now we are in the realm of "it feels" and everyone feels differently. You feel that it is wrong for someone to get ahead without going through the proper work while I feel that he worked around the problem to get to his goal admirably. There is no way to resolve this difference.

      On a side note, the non dynamicly updating comments make replying almost seem like talking past each other.

    10. As I said, even participation is important to some people, otherwise they wouldn't buy it.

      Also, some things get removed - like CM gear. Like certain pvp mounts. So it's not really 'participation'.

      To reiterate - this isn't about whether ot not it's particularly hard to do it. It's not. This isn't about how many people care or not care. Because at least to the buyer it is, otherwise they wouldn't bother. This isn't about how worthless it is to actually throw real money at pixels. Because in 20 years even the buyer won't recall what he bought.
      In the end, what are they even buying? Bragging rights? Happiness? I'm not even sure.

  4. wish the question were first.

    i like to try to come up with my own answer before being persuaded or else by the time I get to the end I am likely to be biased in favor of the argument being presented.

    in this case, I don't see a problem with any of them. they all have niches in the game and can coexist.

    when they start affecting me is when I might start to care, but the game is big enough to accommodate us all.

    the money thing doesn't resonate strongly with me and I'm not quite sure why people get angry at people with money. I worry about pay to win only when it affects me, and since I am not a progression raider or a PVPer, I have trouble understanding how pay to win hurts me in a PVE game. Wouldn't it actually help me if my guildies indirectly paid to help me win?


  5. As a side note - I'm pretty sure this was a 'what do you think' question not 'are you ok with it? does the existance of Bob / Tom / Dave bother you?' question. Or even better 'What do you think of people who call Bob / Tom / Dave cheaters?'. There's quite a big difference.

    I've given my opinion on it several times on this blog which is - I don't give a fk of what people buy or whatever. I may be myself a Bob or a Tom or a potential Dave. This doesn't change my opinion on the subject though.
    I can attack people too, saying people who think Bob / Tom / Dave are ok are just lazy and just want to justify their actions, to be able to brag about a boosted CM or whatever, but I don't, because that's not the point of the question. Or I think it's not.

  6. Life is not fair. As much as we might like to think there is karma, it doesn't change the first sentence.

    Choice is an illusion.

    Expect the worst and hope for the best. That way a surprise is a pleasant one.

    I share these 3 statements with the young Sailors I counsel on a daily basis. Even in a heavily regimented system older than the US Government itself (The Army, Navy and USMC are all older than the US Government), it is still not fair. People smarter than us have tried to instill systems of fairness (of which the Constitution remains one of the best written pieces in the history of man), there are still loopholes.

    All 3 folks above fall within the limits of the game. Just as life is not fair, there is no sacred either. All 3 fall under the category of "who you know" being more important than "what you know".

    As much as we may not like it, WoW is a game. Is being carried in a guild run fair (even if it's to get gear super fast so that we can use you as a tank or healer?). No. How about when rated arena teams were selling a spot to get you a arena rating so you could get better gear? Is that fair? NO! Was it cheating? No it wasn't.

    Is multi-boxing cheating? Not according to Blizzard (they want your money). How about the douchebag that multi-boxed 40 accounts and used to que in Alterac Valley and sit in Drek'Thar's Chamber? Or when he would fly into Stormwind and sit in the PVP Vendor room? Not cheating (could be considered griefing on the Stormwind part).

    Using a 3rd party software application to play for you (even if you programmed it) is cheating. Even though Bob doesn't play well, he's still playing (even if carried, I'm sure he's still putting out some damage/heals). Even if Tom paid to be carried, it's not cheating. Even rich Dave isn't cheating because a legal means of paying people became available and he is making use of it.

    These complaints will continue just like "welfare epics" (oh how I would love the opportunity to get some of those now; RNG SUCKS!).

  7. I can see how a perception that Dave is 'cheating' might arise.

    In Bob and Tom's case, the efforts they make to earn the carry are done within the game itself. Bob does it by maintaining good relations within his guild and Tom does it by bartering with in-game currency/goods. It is within the power of any player in the game to do it Bob or Tom's way.

    Dave however is using something earned outside the game itself to earn the carry. Arguably, this is not something that every player could likewise do. Players financial circumstances will never be a level playing field.

  8. I'm writing this comment without having read the other comments so you get my first impression.

    Honestly I don't see much of a difference between Tom and Bob, from an outsider's pov. Bob is a bad player but offers friendship, help, and all you could wish in a raider but not actual skill. Tom may, or may not offer skill, so you can't count on him being better thant Bob, but he does offer something else. So in both cases you, as a raid leader, are trading a carry for something. In both cases it is entirely up to the raid leader, and maybe the entire raid, to decide who they take along and under which conditions. There's nothing wrong with that. It's absolutely fair to me. Everyone has different motives on why to raid and who to take with them. Bottom line - this is just you (and Bob and Tom) playing the game in the way you'd like and acquiring gear with the means you have.

    As of Dave, since buying gold is going to be perfectly legal, and trading gold for a carry too, I can't see any cheating going on. What is anybody else losing due to him? No hacked accounts involved, no acc sharing, nothing fishy here. Regardless, paying hundreds of euros (I guess a carry is easily more than 100k gold) for a carry seems like a really stupid thing to do. Here's why:

    I'm a leader and headhunter for a decent raid that caters towards people with high skill but little time. When looking for new players, I am looking for several things: raiding history, current progress, DPS and fail logs. This means that a carry will be very obvious. Someone who lacks any raiding history, or has no logs to show, or has many mythic kills of the current tier on the same day, won't ever be contacted, no matter how high his ilvl is. Ilvl is meaningless, it's the past achievements and logs that count. An ilvl 670 DD who is doing decently DPS wise, almost flawless fail logs and has a plausible raiding history will get a bnet friend request pretty fast on the other hand.

    I can't see what is the benefit of a carry would be. Dave doesn't have the time to raid anyways. And if he does, he'll either land in a really bad raid and not get anywhere because the other people are just like him, or he'll get evicted fast because he can't compete. So, as a raider, what do I have to fear?

  9. I don't think any of them are cheating.

    Not everyone has time to farm mats for craftables, so it's good to have people like "Bob" around. I was a "Bob" for a while when I first started playing (end of Wrath and early Cata), but then I got good enough to earn a spot on the raid team (for 10man DS heroic progression).

    People like "Tom" (and "Dave") who pay for carriers with gold (or cash) are providing a benefit to that guild for funding BoEs and mats (or pizza and beer), etc. I'm more of a "Tom" now, but I'm too cheap to actually pay for carries (and generally not as interested in the game as I used to be), so I just don't raid anymore. Some people might say I'm "cheating" by being able to afford BoEs off the AH...

    As someone else mentioned, cheating to me means using hacks or exploits. Things like bots and dupes. Although, I wish Blizz would change some of the fishing achievs, so that using a fishing bot didn't seem so tempting sometimes. Not that I'd ever use one since it's against the ToS; I'm not going to risk losing my account over a couple of achievements.

    Gold selling/buying doesn't hurt the game's economy at all since no one is actually creating gold; it's just transferring gold around. It'd be different if Blizz started selling gold directly because they'd be "printing" gold in game, but they know that would cause crazy inflation, so they won't do that. That's why bots and dupes are so problematic.

  10. Did you know Bob spelled backwards is Bob? WOW! That is profound!!!!

    -roo - better living thru chemisty

  11. But, after reading this, All three sound like me from time to time. And I don't cheat. Cheating is item duping, robbing someone else's account, etc. What Bob, Tom and Harry do is not cheating.

    I'm older, not young like most here. My values are different and as such, what one sees as cheating others may not. And vis-a-versa.

    What you enter here is not really cheating. I don't see Bob as being carried. (I am like Bob, though I did get silver)

    I don't see Tom as cheating - but helping someone out in return for being helped.

    And Harry, he may work a lot to take care of his young family. He may work because he is a workaholic just like you GE - his mind is just wired that way - different - calculating and analytic (spelling?).

    There are those gold farmers that can make the gold (I can't) and I find that they are the same as Harry.

    Now, Bizzard has "get to lvl 90" for $60. You can gold sink in the game now to get your heirlooms from 1-100 for a boost of 45% (I think that is right) of exp to level up. You can get a motorcycle at lvl 1 for faster travel. Next step is for Blizzard with their game card, but I do believe it will backfire on them. And the step after that - pay to win. I see that in 1 to 2 years if not sooner. They are greedy. And the moment that comes out, I will go back to single player games. : (

    yak later. Gots to go kill some hob-goblins on my front steps, lol.

    -roo the unsinkable

    PS - did you see that my joke from a year or so back that I put on here went viral - "what do you call a gnome mage who escape prison?" a small medium at large. LOL, a GM told it to me the other day.

  12. dang - Harry is Dave or is Dave really hairy?

    nah, Dave and Harry are the same, Or are they? Whats the question, again?

  13. Once more from the trench of confusion -

    I saw a Druid in cat form as a flaming lion! Worgen so he is alliance. How did he get that flaming firey cat skin? Is it a glyph? or what?!?!

    Thanks to anyone who can answer my question and help me out here. I guess I am like Bob and Tom.


    1. You can get it from Fandral's staff or burning seeds from near the portal near the bridge to Fandral. Oor... (you see what I did there? Drawled out the or to make Roo backwards)... they did an appearance copy with some toy. I'm thinking the former.

  14. Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:

    I can't really say any of the three are cheating. Maybe gaming the system a bit in all three cases, but still all are well within the bounds of the game. Perhaps the word cheating is the wrong one to choose here. Maybe it is more a matter of respect. Of the three, I would probably feel the most respect for Bob. Why Bob? Because of the three, Bob is the most team oriented one. Bob is the one on the bench who will come if you ask him to, knowing that he is a temporary fill in and likely won't get an invitation to the next raid. He is content to do that role. And to my mind, that makes him the one who did the most of the three to "earn" his carry.

    I have seen to many times that having Bob around was the only way we would get to raid with a guild only group. Having the other two around neither helps nor hurts my guild, so why would I care about them getting a carry? Bob on the other hand means getting a raid off the ground somewhere close to the time marked on the calender a lot more consistently. Why? Not because Bob is going to go, but because Bob can go and the ones who need to be on the team are aware that being late means Bob might go in their place and therefore are likelier to be on time or real close to it. So yes, in the most traditional sense, I would feel Bob earned his carry later on thru to the end game boss far more than either of the other two. But as far as cheating, no, Bob nor Tom nor Dave (not to mention Dick and Harry) are not cheating.

  15. I'm worried that replying this fascinating post will be worthy of a post on it's own.

    When I first read this post, I thought it was heading down a different path. I don't think any of these guys are cheating. They are within the terms of service. It boils down to people feeling irritated at people who have gotten things "easily" without working the same amount they did for it.

    For example, getting into law school - you could get in by being in the top 1% of your class and getting in on your academic merit, or you could be rich and just pay $300k to get into law school. Though to be equivalent in the raid situation, that 300k would also buy them the degree, not just the entry into law school. People would be unimpressed with that, and that the person wasn't a real lawyer because they didn't do it the "proper" way, with all the hard work behind it. But in th end they got their law degree, and maybe they won't practice law, but they have it next to their name and it looks good (probably just as well they don't practice it anyway coz they don't know anything anyhow).

    Is someone who uses a standard UI accusing everyone who uses addons a cheater? Because we're not doing it the standard "Blizzard" way, but we're making it easier to play our class. Obviously I don't think that's cheating (TOS doesn't say you can't use addons!).

    I don't think any of these 3 are out to hurt people. In fact, Dave does the guild of whoever's run he bought into a favour as the money can be used for other things like guild repairs etc. Guilds like that, people sell these things, so if it wasn't for customers like Dave, some high end guilds would be worse off.

    Tom is a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours idea. He trades a like for like. Someone would like that idea and jump on it. Everybody should be happy.

    So who ISN'T happy?

    Well, if you're not the recipient of the gold or the favour, then you wouldn't be happy. If you are disdainful of Bob and his lack of talent and don't like helping out your guildies for a bit of fun then you wouldn't be happy.

    This is a game. You don't have to be excellent at the game to enjoy it. Those 3 guys enjoy the game. Just let them enjoy it as long as they're not hurting anyone else. And none of them is a cheater.