Monday, February 10, 2014

Monday Random Thoughts

- I managed to spend an entire week keeping busy yet avoiding the LFR completely.

- I almost didn't, I almost healed some on my shaman.

- It kind of sucks that when you hit a moment when you do not feel like doing anything else the only option is LFR.

- I think that says something about the design of the game currently.

- When there is nothing to do the only thing to do becomes the worst thing in the game.

- I hope warlords can fix that.

- I've been seeing a few people talk about something I mentioned a long time ago with concerns to the LFR.

- Make each wing a new dungeon, not a raid.

- Yes, a five man dungeon.

- It would allow for a much easier sight seeing mode which is what they said their intended purpose is.

- It would make for quicker queues.

- It would make sure all fights are one tank fights as there will only be one tank.

- Maybe add a different level of dungeon, something between the classic 5 man and the current 25 man LFR.

- Make them 10 man groups.

- So they could still be raids, but with dungeon mentality.

- 1 tank, 2 healers, and 7 damage dealers.

- The idea really is that smaller groups are easier to design random content for.

- It allows for people to stay together as a group a little better than 4 people queuing together and feeling lost in a group of 25.

- And the smaller the audience the easier it is to control the trolls.

- Anything that can change the LFR atmosphere would be a good change.

- It is not the LFR I am against.

- It is not the design of them I am against.

- It is the community that uses it and the lack of moderation in them or penetalies they give people that purposely try to ruin the game for everyone else.

- In large groups this happens so much more often.

- So blizzard has a choice in my opinion.

- Ditch the 25 man LFR concept completely.

- Or start adding stiff penalties for people that make the LFR unplayable.

- But that too is an issue.

- Who has the right to say who makes the LFR unplayable?

- I would rather be with the dreadful 30K damage dealer that we down the boss with than be with the 300K damage dealer that insults everyone the entire run.

- The 30K damage dealer might make things harder, might even kick them if we are having DPS issues, but as long as they are not causing trouble I can live with them.

- But the 300K player, in my opinion, makes the game unplayable.

- Their attitude, their treatment of others, their lack of ability to work as a team, their debbie downer attitude, just everything about them is not something I should ever have to deal with.

- I know the "I pay to play this game too" argument but when it comes down to it your 15 bucks does not entitle you to ruin the game for everyone else and your attitude ruins the game.

- So if they did add some sort of moderation, who gets the boot from ruining the LFRs?

- The 30K people that make it harder, or the 300K people that make it unbearable?

- I guess that is why they do not moderate, there is a thin line between who should stay and who should go.

- I still support the idea of targeted bans however.

- As if you get banned from trolling trade, you are banned only from posting in trade, not from the game completely.

- If you are banned for doing something in LFR worthy of a ban, you are banned for queuing up for the LFR, not from the game completely.

- I think blizzard would do themselves a great service with targeted bans.

- Someone has an honor bot?  Ban them from gaining honor for 6 months.

- You get to keep the subscription, but you penalize them enough that they will learn not to do it any longer.

- And make bans battle net wide.

- Which means if you are banned from getting honor on your rogue, all your characters are banned, even those on another account, because they are all still you, and it is not your character that is banned, it is you.

- A system like this would allow them to hand out bans more often and would most likely be more effective.

- Ever heard someone on voice chat that made you want to log off?

- I am not talking about what they said, I am just talking about their voice.

- There is a new member in our guild that has been popping on vent and I swear every time she talks I can feel my brain cells dying.

- It is painful to listen to her.

- And she has a massive issues with TMI.

- Not as in saying the wrong things, but just being long winded for no reason what so ever.

- Like most people might say, brb, when they are getting up.

- Some might add something like, brb bathroom, brb beer, brb wife.

- She has to give us the entire story to why she is leaving.

- Do we really need to know that your mother lost the remote and you need to help her find it because her favorite show is on and that she one time met one of the actors in it and followed them for 2 hours to get an autograph and has every episode ever memorized word for word so if she does not find the remote she will be really upset.

- And the sound of her voice is mind numbing, like I said, I feel brain cells dying each time she talks.

- I have mentioned this a lot before, I am big on sound, I play by sound, I use sound for cues, I pick up little sounds others might not ever notice, and the sound of her voice makes me want to stick ice picks in my ears so I never have to hear again.

- And then when she comes back she does not say, back, like the rest of us.

- She will keep saying, I am back, until everyone on vent says welcome back.

- And when she tries to say something, even if it is a simple one line sentience, it takes her 5 minutes to say it with all the um, ah, and breaks in what she is saying.

- I think that is what bothers me more than anything else.

- I just want to scream, shut the fuck up, nothing you have to say is of any importance anyway.

- She is the first person I think I have ever heard on vent that actually made me want to log off just to not have to hear her talk.

- Speaking of horrible sounds, what do you think of the music in the shrine?

- I think I am reached critical mass and am about to explode.

- The music there makes me want to grab an AK-47 and start mowing down people in my neighborhood.

- It is really that bad, it makes me want to go postal.

- Does any one out there like the music of the shrine.

- I went to dal yesterday just to lean back in my chair and relax a bit.

- Now that is how a city should sound.

- Just another reason wrath was great.

- It really did have the best sound of any expansion.

- I screwed up a herald of the titans character again.

- I need to learn to stop leveling, but I just can not do it.

- One of these days I will get one and stop at 80.

- Have a few people in my guild with locked 80s now.

- Maybe when all is said and done I will not need to find a group, I will make an all guild group.

- Think I got a tank because I was talking to someone with an alt in the 70s if he wanted to stop there for a little bit and he said okay.

- We have three damage dealers already.

- So almost half where they, character count wise that is.

- Who would have ever thought?

- Hey, I have a question for you people that might read this.

- Raid leaders specifically, but anyone can really have an opinion.

- We have a rule for the 25 man being a lot of people bring alts, the rule is mains get first shot at gear.

- There are of course some times when we, as a group, will let an alt get it first.

- Like if something is a huge upgrade for the alt but a minor upgrade for the main.

- Two situation came up this week that I would like opinions on.

- Situation 1, 2 of the same class, a weapon upgrade dropped.

- The alt had a 540, the main had a 540.

- All things being equal I would have given it to the main as it was an equal upgrade for both.

- But the alt had a higher roll and I gave it to the alt.

- One of the officers started in on me about it saying I should have given it to the main.

- The thing is our main 10 man is doing heroics, our alts are helping the 25 man.

- The alt in question is one of the mains from the heroic team.

- The main in question with a 553 item level is doing 80K, as in horrible, and if it were not for the fact we need bodies to fill the 25 they would not even be on the team.

- The alt with a 530 item level is doing 230K.

- So the alt would get more use out of it then the main would.

- The alt is part of the heroic team that is basically there helping the 25.

- The alt won the roll and I saw it as a larger upgrade for the alt than the main.

- And we do have that one rule that says, if it is a huge upgrade the alt can get it.

- I felt to the alt it was a much bigger upgrade than to the main.

- I kept getting shit all raid about it from that one person.

- I finally used the "it's my raid so it's my decision, just leave it alone"

- I hate being forced to use that as my argument.

- I think I did the right thing.

- I gave the item to the person that it would help the group best to have it and that person did win the roll to begin with.

- Also knowing in the back of my head that as soon as I can get anyone else for the 25 that other person would no longer be in the 25 to begin with.

- Do you think I was right?

- Now, situation number 2.

- From the main 10, doing the end part on normal because we are not quite heroic ready for those bosses and just wanted to get some kills in.

- On klaxxi (I believe) and an agility ring drops.

- I am on an alt hunter with a 528 LFR ring.

- There is another hunter in the group with 2 553 rings.

- The ring is warforged, all things being equal I should have gotten it even on an alt because it was a huge upgrade, but he won the roll so I gave it to him.

- It works out to be a 200 DPS increase to him.

- Two people whispered me telling me I should have taken it because it would have been a bigger increase to me.

- Both people pointed out that I had better numbers in lesser gear, which means the ring would have done more for me than the minor increase it was for him.

- I said, let him have it, he is a main.

- As I saw it, it was not worth the drama of him crying because an alt got a warforged ring before him.

- They told me I was wrong, I should have taken it.

- I figured we will be raiding this for the next 4-6 months minimum, I will get a ring sooner or later, I just wanted to down some bosses.

- Loot is not the first and foremost thing I raid for even if I love getting new loot.

- Should I have taken the ring?

- Want to know the kicker, when we killed garrosh, he got the freaking bow with no alt hunters that can use it.

- Yet me with alt hunters that can use it still has no freaking BoA bow, normal or flex.

- Oh, and he was the same person that bitched at me for not giving the weapon to the main in the 25.

- The guys just seems like he has a case of he should get everything he wants.

- It is almost as if he argued the other main should get the weapons so he had a stance to take for the ring when he rolled against me on his main.

- I really hate when people think of themselves and themselves only.

- I think I should add a new rule to all raid teams.

- Look at the big picture, not just the loot.

- It is nice seeing my alt hunter pushing 300K now, almost broke it on thok and I am still rocking some LFR and flex pieces.

- I have been pretty lucky on him, can not deny that one.

- He did get the weapon off the klaxxi that run, so that might have also helped as the reason I did not mind so much about the ring.

- It is going to be nice finally having a normal mode weapon.

- Love the sonic images from the bow.

- Even when you are not shooting, it still keeps firing.

- Even when you are dead, it still keeps firing.

- The bow has a mind of it's own.

- A hive mind maybe, being where it came from.

- I changed around some skills on my mage and played it for the first time in a while.

- Did an ordos kill with no island buffs just to see what I could do.

- Sure the island buffs would really boost me but I was not there to show off, I was there to test my talent changes and see what I could do.

- Pulled 240K at a 527 item level.

- I guess I like these new abilties.

- Not sure if using the rune would work as well in raids being you need to move but on ordos where I only needed to move twice because I got the debuff it really worked wonders for me.

- Now if only I could get a ton of fights where I can stand still at a mage I might be good at one.

- For many of my 90s ordos and the celestials are all they do.

- Have you noticed that it seems you either win on most characters in a week or don't win on any characters?

- As if there is a hidden flag on your account and they turn it on saying let them win this week.

- Last week I won, over all my characters, 8 warforged pieces.

- Admittedly it was a lot of characters with a lot of coins.

- But this week, all those same characters, all those same coins, I did not win one piece on any of them.

- It is as if the game says this week you can win, or this week you can't.

- Do you think there is something to that or it is just standard RNG.

- Lucky week vs unlucky week.

- I really dislike RNG.

- I wish they would find a better way to determine when we get loot instead of leaving it all up to luck.

- Almost anything has to be better than pure luck based game play.

- It is like luck based procs.

- I wish they would ditch those too.

- Making doing damage about what you push and not what you get lucky to proc would be a better design.

- I've seen differences of upwards of +300K on burst depending on what procs I get.

- That works out to be very little by the end of the fight, maybe 20K or 30K, but that is still wrong.

- That much of a difference should never be based on luck.

- I don't want to get lucky to do 20K better.

- I would rather practice and become better to do 20K better.

- Luck is luck, working is earning.

- I would rather everything in game be determined by working for it.

- I will never get what I want.

- The vast majority like luck based.

- Until they kill the same boss 30 times looking for a drop and never seeing it.

- Do you know how many people I go on fun runs with to BC or wrath stuff and something drops and they say, I killed this 50 times and that never dropped.

- That should never happen in a game, there should always be an alternate way to get anything in game outside of waiting on luck to get it.

- Oh well, not sure if I will go another week without doing the LFR, because I have no choice but to do it if I ever want to continue along the legendary quest line with alts.

- I'll leave this week with a little bit of humor for you.

- I was tanking for an ordos group, one of the first ones in it.

- As they assembled and invited people there was this one lock that was (I guess) looking at everyone's gear and making insulting remarks.

- Why are you inviting these scrubs.

- A few times he said things like, if you people can not beat the tank on this fight you suck, if you can not beat the tank on this fight you should just delete your account.

- It made me wonder if he ever did ordos before, because tanks are always near the top on that fight.

- He must have just thought he could do better than me.

- I started to think I could have a little fun here.

- I put on all the island buffs and even prepotted and used a pot during the fight for DPS and used DPS trinkets.

- I wanted to do as much DPS as I could.

- Not to help his argument, but to beat him and his "if the tank beats you, you suck" mentality.

- Fight ended.

- Me, as tank, 289K, him as lock, 260K.

- I pointed it out in raid.

- The entire raid started to call him names and tell him to delete his account.

- Someone said, "In your own words, if you can not beat the tank you should delete your account.  Can I have your stuff?"

- It was awesome.

- Rule # 1 - Don't be an asshole.

- Rule # 2 - If you are going to be an asshole, at least back it up.

- Rule # 3 - Even if you can back it up, see rule # 1.

- Have a great day.


  1. Well as a raid leader I think you did what was best both times. It's what I would have done but I'm surprised people argued with you about it.

    I've had the circumstance come up a couple of times of alt vs main in my raid. We're starting to struggle to make 10, especially 10 of the right role mix. So there's a few people that swap a fair bit.

    We use epgp and it's across all characters not just the mains, so my rule is if someone has the higher PR, then alt or not it is there's. However, people can see who else has rolled and often they'll be a discussion of "you can have it" "no it's ok" "no honestly you'll get more use out of it" and then sometimes they swap, or sometimes they don't.

    Given how often alts have to come to the raid, gearing them is as important as gearing a main really, as they are just like alternate mains. We need them so they need to be geared.

    We were talking about switching around. We had a tank on his healer, a healer on their hunter, our elemental shaman on his alt enhancement shaman, my co-tank was on his alt tank. For a couple of bosses one of the warriors logged his mage etc. about half the raid were on alts. I asked "does everyone here have an alt that is raid capable?" and only two people said not really. Our ret paladin, and one of our paladin healers. I'm a pally tank obviously. The pally healer laughed and said "once you've gone paladin, you never go back".

    It made me think though. I've not played alts at all this expansion because of LFR. Gearing them without LFR wasn't efficient, and it was very time consuming compared to how easy it was before. So I just dropped them and didn't bother. Not being able to play alts has been one of my biggest complaints about Mists. Now in the dead time between now and Warlords, if it wasn't for my guild I'd probably unsub as all I do is raid out of obligation. However, clearly I'm one of the few who have a problem with it.

    I thought that LFR killed alts, as it definitely did for me. I refuse to run LFR at all because of how it is. I guess I've scapegoated a lot of my issues with Mists onto LFR. So is LFR not that much of a problem then? I've always viewed it as this big evil and I'm hoping, against hope probably, that they'll make it less important in Warlords, perhaps make it basically equal with dungeons. LFR can drop tier but it's the same ilevel so there's choice. However, if LFR has been successful well they aren't going to see the need to do that are they?

    Another thing. February and still no news of Warlords beta release. What do you think this does to the actual release date? I'm thinking we're going to have Siege for a year and as I'm already fed up, well that's not good. I pity people that run LFR and flex as well. Do you think your guild will survive the drought? Given signs are drying up I'm slightly worried about mine. I suppose if you are already running 25's you won't share my worry about the transition to the new raiding model.

    Oh and last thing. Everquest Next Landmark. You heard of it and what do you think?

    1. Loot drama is why I hate 25 man raiding. We never have those problems in 10 except for the rare time we swap out someone so they can get experience or gear because none of us need it. They might cause some issues, but it is rare. But the 25 man, even if only one person needed something and that one person got it, someone will find some reason to complain about it.

      We are getting to the point we do not even bother with flex any longer. Even on alts we can carry a fair amount of people through 25 mans, so we are doing normal with them and going to add a second night.

      I have at least 10 raid ready alts, but then again I do dabble in LFR. Only 4 have the cape as of now, but others are at various stages. Unless you have massive gear in all slots, I think the cape is a key to being raid ready. Without it, you are not. At least for a damage dealer.

      But we do have news of the preorder even if not the beta, which means the beta is pretty far along I would guess.

      Am I worried, yes, I am burnt out, I would love to not raid for a week or two, but I have no choice. I have to. The good thing for us, as a casual guild, is we still have a lot of content left. Even if we are stuck here for another 4 months we will never downed heroic garrosh, so that means there is always content there waiting for us. It will keep our people that want to raid interested, but not sure about the part timers in the 25. How long can they survive doing the same 8 bosses each week?

      I am looking forward to giving it a test personally. Have not read too much on it but it is on my radar.

  2. Saint Andrew, but ye be long winded todae.


  3. Loot drama, already getting a headache.

    Darama fact: You don't follow your own rules. You disregarded them both times.
    Conclusion: Are the rules wrong? Or do you just break them whn you see fit?

    Issue 1: Why do you have that rule with alt gets loot if it's huge upgrade?
    Alt by definition is undergeared. Which means an alt is most likely to need a pice that drops more than a main would. Why in gods' name would you crate a rule that is bound to cause ripples more often than not? For the few times where some alt gets to help your main progression?
    Assumption: Someone who is not from the main progression roster (10m) will probably never come nor be allowed to come on an alt in that 25m run.
    How it looks to an outsider scenario 1: you have this rule to gear your own alts and your friends' alts.
    How it looks to an outsider scenario 2: the people form the 10m would never help a 25 unless they were promised gear for their alts.

    Issue 2: If you don't like the guy, kick him. Why is he still there? Do you need him? if you do, then respect him as you would any main.

    Issue 3: where is your rule about loot via performance? You keep bringing this up.
    This kind of rule is only relevant when that character is part of progression. Is your alt hunter part of progression? And not because you CHOOSE to bring him there, but because there is no better character to help them with? If so, your performance is relevant, if not, it is not and should never be brought up as an argument.

    How I see things:

    Scenario 1: 10m. Your progression and focus. You bring mains, best ones.You decide to bring in alts for some reason.

    > Question 1: Why is the alt there?
    > Answer 1.1: Because it's farm and they have gear on their main.
    M y view: Main gets loot over alt, no matter how big the upgrade.
    >Answer 2.1: Because they are needed on that fight this one time.
    >> Question 2: Is this alt an alt from your 10m roster?
    >> Answer 2.1: Yes
    My view: Main gets loot over alt, no matter how big the upgrade.
    >> Answer 2.2: No
    My view: He is there to help you. On par with main, settle for roll.
    > Answer 1.3: The alt s there because you always use that one alt for that fight
    Question 3: Are you pushing for progression on this fight now?
    Answer 3.1: Yes
    My view: Alt is on par with main, settle for roll.
    Answer 3.2: No
    My view: fight is on farm, alt is geared enough to do this fight, Main gets loot over alt.

    Scenario 2: 25m.

    Now I don't actually understand your 25m. I recall a post of yours when ALT A was doing more dps than MAIN M, but A got upset when he got asked to get on his main because his performance was better than M's. Um, what was this? Why didn't A come on main in the first place. Is he there to help or is he there for selfish reason (his own fun, gearing up his alt)? Respect the other people, you don't let alts come on when they can come on their mains and make the run harder, the 25m shouldn't be testing grounds for your team's alts.

    This already settles the 25m as a non-progression raid where people are allowed to NOT push for progress.

    If this 25m is progression on its own, then consider 25m roster as set, even if it has alts in it. But those alts better be there every time, they are main for that run.

    If this is meant to involve the guild and engage it, then the alts are alts. They are helping somoene else's progression.
    Your 10m people get better progression from 10m, get gear from there, get to have fun in 25m and yet they also want the gear form the other 25m people? What do the 25m people get? The 25m is their only progression, you don't take their personal progression away from them. Chances are a good progression player will always be better, no matter what alt they are on.
    How this looks to an outsider: The alts you bring to 25 don't help the rest of the people, the rest of the people help the alts progress.

    1. Alts are not always under geared. My alts are way better geared than many others alts. Heck, my alt hunter is probably better geared than most raid teams main members.

      Alt just means "not main". Main means this is your character that will always get priority on rolls.

      "Answer 2.2: No
      My view: He is there to help you. On par with main, settle for roll."

      This is how I figured to give it to the alt. He won the roll and the gear was equal to begin with. He was there to help more than anything else. We need players like that or the 25 would never get past the first 4.

      As for your 25 question, he was there on an alt so he could use his coins to try to get it geared up or take any sloppy seconds on loot no one needed. He was asked to switch to his main when we could not down a boss.

      The 25 man is still not even a 25 man, so hell no, it is not progression. He did the first 7 this week with 22 people, 4 of which were not even a 520 item level or very good. On our server we are still the biggest guild and that says a lot right there. We are the only ones that can even run 25s. But we do not have the people to push it anywhere. That is why we always restart. Boss 4, boss, 6, boss 8, however far we get, that is all we do. We will not extend until we can fill with people worthy of being there.

      Being the "mains" are doing heroic I consider the character they bring to the 25 their 25 main. Like we have one healer that always brings her monk to that, it is her 25 man main. We have another person that always brings his rogue, that is his 25 main. You get the idea. However, they are still "alts" and some people get hung up on that. I see them as mains, and I treat them as such. The others seem all hung up on the word alt. I try to explain to them to see the bigger picture but they just look at things with blinders on. "His main is doing heroic, he should not be allowed to roll on gear". That sort of attitude. Well guess what, without his alt we would not get shit down.

      "The alts you bring to 25 don't help the rest of the people, the rest of the people help the alts progress."

      You are looking at it from only one perspective and that is the wrong one. Those "mains" pulling 80K would not even down the first boss without the alts from the 2 10 mans there.

      The alts that they bring to the 25 are the only reason those people even have any progression. That is the truth and that is exactly how it looks.

      I have never received a piece of loot from a boss on any of my alts I am bought there. I got some on rolls, but it always goes to others first. I bring alts in to use their coins. I will only take something if no one needs it. We just have never gotten to that point.

      However if we were starting to do progression in 25, I would dedicated one of my characters to the team and I would roll on loot because that character is as much a main for that group as anyone else that is there that only has one character.

      The problem is getting some others to see it that way. They get all hung up on the fact they have another character in another run. They do not understand that week in and week out this person is there on their monk so that character is a main for that group.

      No matter how many times you explain it, people just do not understand logic. Never will.

  4. I think you need to have people identify their "mains" for the 25. Becase you can't run a 10 and a 25 on the same toon each week currently, you are right that they are alts technically but they are like mains. So just label them as a member of the 25 man. Change your rules so it says a member of the 25 man in place of "main". There's a difference between someone getting a bunch of gear in the 25 man on one char and then bringing a new char to the 25 man in subsequent weeks to gear them up too, and someone that can only do a 25 on an "alt" because their main is saved. It all comes down to the labeling though. Because without that labeling in place the situation does just seem like you doing whatever you want. Are no other people involved in the decision? Your rules leave too much ambiguity and that will always cause drama. You need clearer definition on your rules.

    What if someone comes on their "alt" every week to your 25 mans, but someone else shows up one week on their "main"?

    I wish normal was cross server already. I would love to do some normals, but I'm lucky to even get in flexes.

    1. It got cloudy a while back when we were still doing normal only and we would bring "mains" to the 25. In November I told all 10 man mains to get a raid ready toon for the 25s (because we were knocking on Old Gs door and heroics would be coming)

      Now that we are starting to run the 25s again, finally enough people on, and all those alts are in there, that I consider mains for the 25, it has become an issue.

      We all still consider ourselves as alts. Even if our alts kind of carry the group thanks to our experience with the raid, most of the time we all pass on things for everyone else. Every so often one of the people will roll for something. That is where the problem comes in. People say "but your main is in the 10 man". Well, this character is a 25 main.

      People just do not understand that you can have 2 mains for 2 different teams. Funny part is, the only person giving me grief over it is a freaking officer. Every one else that asks me, I explain, they say, okay, got it. He will just not give up on it.

      Could use a few good players for normals, would be nice when that time comes.

      I think the rules are as clear as clear can be. It is not my fault others refuse to listen to them. Or accept them.

  5. Quick note on the 10-man LFR idea, I'm not against it in general but it might not work as well as you'd expect. 1 tank in 10 is the same as 2.5 in 25... that's more tanks than LFR currently requires. Also, there's a downside to single tank raiding that I haven't seen mentioned... that tank is going to have a LOT of responsibility. I'd bet that a lot, maybe a majority, of LFR tanks queue up hoping that the other tank can carry the load. I haven't seen a TON of runs where both tanks are new but it happens and I do see a ton where one tank is new. When you're always going to be the only tank, where do you get the experience from?

    I think an easier LFR, which is expected, answers both problems... less for tanks to worry about and smoother runs which should result in less drama. Smaller LFR doesn't really help with either, I don't think.

    Regarding loot, here's my PERSONAL loot policy when I'm pugging with an established group:

    Main spec regular > main spec pug (myself included) or alt > off spec regular or pug or alt

    If any regulars roll on gear, regardless of the stated loot policy, I won't roll against them. If ANY pugs or alts roll against regulars, though, I'll roll as well (I run a roll add-on that indicates who rolls need/greed/pass, I'm usually the last to roll).

    Having said that, unless you have a specific policy like that which is doesn't sound like is the case, whoever wins the roll wins the item, that's how it's designed to work. Deserve doesn't factor in at all so I'd actually disagree with both of you in the first scenario... the other guy is wrong because the roll determined the winner and you're wrong since neither deserved it more in that roll system.

    Also, in terms of guild mains/alts, I'd consider the main toon to be the one doing the highest progression raiding, regardless of the run... so if you have a, say, hunter in your 10H group and runs a priest in your 25N group but for whatever reason didn't run his hunter that week and brings it to your 25N run instead to help out, I'd consider that hunter his main for that run even though it isn't his normal run.

    Also, if you were the one who requested that someone run a different toon or spec for comp reasons, I would probably consider that a main spec for that specific run as a "reward" for switching. No preferential treatment, they'd just get a main spec roll.

    For the second scenario, again assuming that you don't have a formal loot policy beyond "/roll and common sense", you lost the roll and the other guy should have gotten the ring. I've been in runs over the years where biggest upgrade played a role and all that does is penalize (I consider loot a reward) players who gear up ASAP using any means available and basically incents those who don't. It's never good to see that happen, even if it's to someone else.

    So, summing up, I think the right result was reached in both cases but it sounds like you need to come up with a specific loot policy, even if it's just "/roll for anything" (which, by the way, doesn't prioritize main spec over off, if you want that, it has to be specified). There should never be arguments about loot... it should be absolutely clear who wins and why.

    People who bitch about others being invited into world bosses are morons on a basic level... if you don't invite undergeared folks in they'll just get their hits in solo and probably die and be of even less use than if they were in the group and survive. It shouldn't require a tank doing 269K to make him look like an idiot, he did it on his own. :)

    Also, not responding to anything in particular but normal-mode weapons are a myth. Anyone who has one hacked the game.

    1. While 1 tank in 10 is 2.5 in 25 meaning you would need "more" tanks, it would also open the door for hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands of people that don't tank LFR to tank them.

      I would tank LFR if all fights were solo tank fights. I don't tank LFR, in part, because the other tank is oft times a complete jack ass and I would rather not have to deal with that thank you very much.

      So change it and you now have me, as just one person alone, that will have an additional 6 characters tanking LFR. How many more tanks do you think would come out of the woodwork if they did not have to deal with another tank that was a jerk, did not speak their language, was an elitist prick, or had no clue what they were doing? I'd bet a lot.

      An easier LFR is part of the solution, but not completely, it will only creates more slackers and again shifts even more pressure on to the few that are doing something.

      They need moderation, nothing less than complete and full moderation where people are penalized for their actions in group content.

      Once you get rid of the people that cause the issues, look for carries, and over all are disruptive in one way or another the LFR would be leaps and bounds better.

      In both cases the item went to the person that won the roll, which basically means you agree with what I did on both. Even if you might have said your reasons differently.

      We have a specific policy, people just do not listen to it, they all love to complain. I personally would not be against the personal loot system being added to normal and heroic raiding. You either win or you don't win, no more loot drama ever.

      Main over off spec always. That never needs to be said ever, not even in a pug. Anyone that does not know that should not even be raiding. The only time that ever changes is when someone is asked to switch to a different role, then their off spec (which is really their main) can be rolled on as main spec.

      World bosses (in my opinion) are meant for low geared alts to gear up. There is a reason I do not stress doing it on my main, because mains do not need world bosses after a few weeks.

      I must have hacked the game, I now have 2 hunters with a normal mode weapon. None of my others have one, so I just need to learn how to hack with them.

    2. I agree with the results of both rolls only because the loot ended up going to the person who rolled higher... unless I missed something, you didn't actually state your loot policy for reference so any discussion of why people should or shouldn't get loot beyond the /roll results means that if the rolls had gone differently, the loot might NOT have gone to the higher rollers... that's why I was specific in my response.

      How does your loot system handle alts/pugs? Are they simply treated based on MS (they designate a MS going in, whether it's the one they're running or not) and OS or by a secondary criteria?

      Speak for yourself, each of my many toons still needs at least one item from a world boss, although in some cases they aren't significant upgrades... i553 -> i559, for instance. I still run 'em, though, there are usually off specs and occasionally DE mats to get.


    3. Yeah, they both went to the person that won. It was more of an ethical thing because in each case someone believed the other person should have gotten it.

      We do not pug. We will bring in friends, even friends of friends, but we do not pug. We will not bring in someone we picked up in trade, just not going to happen. Only if they are trying out for the guild will we ever invite someone we do not know before hand.

      Our rules are very simple which is why I wonder why some people have issues with it. Standard roll system, main over off. We do add that if someone brings an alt for the first few bosses being they are easy that if a regular needs it they get first dibs. That is about it otherwise.

      I "could" use a few items off ordos, however the upgrade from 553-559 is not big enough to make a big deal if I forget to do it. In some cases the 559 might not even be as good as the 553.

      I still run them on enchanters as well for DE purposes, the spirits still sell for 2-3K each on my server so it is well worth the run up there even if I didn't need anything. 4-6K for 3 minutes work? Yeah, I will do that all day every day.

  6. Interesting problem. Our 25m (which is 4/14h atm, we struggled with heroic sha for a looooooong time) doesn't show preferences for mains over alts or pugs, and sometimes I wish we would. We use a modified fixed sum DKP system.

    I've had very uncharacteristic luck on my main hunter this tier. So perhaps that's helped me feel a bit more generous with distributing things to others. I've had a couple people who thought I should have kept things when I passed on them so others could have the upgrade. So I can certainly relate to your being bothered by that stuff. But I, fortunately, don't have to deal with giving stuff to people we are completely carrying, or only invite to fill a space. There are no hunters (we have four regulars and two hunter alts who fill in occasionally) who are doing less that 80% of their sim dps on single target fights.

    In situation one, it seems good of you to do what's best for the raid. There's two criteria I'd be worried about there. A: getting the most dps out of your players so you can kill more dragons, and B: having everyone feel like they're getting a fair deal, so that people are willing to try, so you can kill more dragons. It seems like you definitely met criterion A; criterion B on the other hand, was maybe a little murky because of the rules in place. Though if criterion A was significantly larger, it certainly makes sense that you would give it to the alt, so that you can keep everyone happy by progressing.

    In situation B, I also think you did the right thing. I think if you want people to follow you, you've got to do better with worse gear, and be selfless about it. At least, those are the leaders that I prefer to follow.

    However, it seems like the bigger problem is the other hunter, who would have been mad/upset/thrown a tantrum if you'd taken the ring. If I'm in a raid where I don't have the lowest damage taken, or the lowest deaths per night, the only thing I'll be thinking about is fixing all of those mistakes; having better gear isn't going to fix either of those things. Furthermore, if I'm being out dps'ed by someone of the same class with worse gear, there is no way I'd take a piece of gear that they could use.

    So, Yeah, I think you made the right decision from the RL/GM point of view. But maybe it's time to think about whether or not this person should really have a place in a heroic raid team.

    Both of these issues remind me of the stuff you talked about in ....


    1. I hated the days back in wrath when we were like that, were everyone had the same chance at gear. I geared up, as in 4 piece set, so many hunters just to have them leave for a more progressed guild because my rolls sucked. I destroyed them on the charts each and every time, but due to bad luck I could not get gear. I always said we needed to start giving stuff to the people who can make the most use of it. We never did and stuck with the roll system. I am against point systems because it is unfair to new players. I would like to see the personal loot system added to the game and loot rolls completely removed.

      In A it was about what you said, giving a new weapon to someone doing only 80K in good gear will not make them suddenly do the 200K they should be doing but giving it to (the person that won the roll) someone that was already doing 200K will help the team and help us get down more bosses so that other person might have more chances to get gear. Hope you follow.

      Second one, as I mentioned, I am no loot whole, but it really made no sense to me that someone would want such a minor upgrade when that hunter I use in the 25 which will then allow us to down more in the 25. It would have been a significant upgrade for me and was a minor one for him, one that was not even needed as we have the DPS to down what we are currently downing and he has a chance to get heroic rings whereas my alt will only be doing normals. I think he was wrong to not pass it. Even more so when it is possible he could replace it any week with a heroic. But I did not complain, who cares, I will get one sooner or later.

      It just bugs me that loot is so important to people that they would rather have a side grade of no real consequence than let someone else get an upgrade. I've passed on more gear I needed then gotten pieces this and every tier because I am about the team. But as you said, I should lead by example. I do, now if only they would follow.

      I question it all the time, but he helped get us there, so the spot is his. But I have had a few members of the team ask me about replacing him. So it might be something that needs to be done sooner or later anyway. Some people just turn sour over the years and I think that is what has happened to him.

      Yeap, all part of the things I talked about there. Makes me wonder why I even try to do it. It is not like we are a great team or anything, we are not pressing content or killing anything quickly. We just take our time, there should never be these type of pressures.

    2. @Del, how'd your DKP system handle the pugs? In any runs I've done in the past that were based on a points system we ran a different system whenever we brought even one pug into the run.

      @Grumpy and Del, that modification was basically a two-tier system... any interested main spec pugs or eligible main spec (big difference there) regulars would roll, if the pug won the roll, they got the item. If a regular won the roll (regardless of who won it), it would go to whoever had the most DKP at the time of the actually interested parties. The reason we had eligible regulars all roll even if they didn't need the item was to balance out the odds for the pug, otherwise, assuming they were less geared than our average regulars (they typically were, sometimes significantly), they'd get more than their share of loot simply by having a lot more opportunities to roll. Always worked out well enough and didn't add a ton of complexity to the process, pugs would just roll on anything they wanted for main spec and our regulars got used to the process quickly (and we had a guy who'd whisper prompt any who didn't roll to make sure they did).

      @Grumpy, still seems like you're focused on things other than the simple /roll result. :) If you're going to factor in worthiness, then switch to loot council and only use /roll as a tiebreaker if there are two equally deserving players. If /roll is your primary rule, none of that other stuff matters. You can't /roll and then discuss whether the person winning the roll is the best choice... either they were eligible to roll or not, it's that simple.

      As for sidegrades (or statistical upgrades at the same iLvl), there's a simple answer why people roll on those... they're an upgrade and that piece may never drop again. The nice thing about /roll is that it's fair to everyone... if someone doesn't roll for an upgrade when it drops, there's a reasonable chance they'll never get it. End of the world? Nah, but it can matter to someone who's trying to hit a breakpoint or wants 4pc tier or is a warrior stuck with being over the expertise cap and having an Exp/Haste piece currently and having a Crit/Mast piece drop, which for them would be a significant upgrade as sidegrades go. Everyone has a threshold for what level of upgrade is enough to be worth rolling on and just because some of us look at "significant iLvl difference" as a minimum threshold doesn't make that the right answer for everyone.

    3. Just as a follow-on to something I said above, one of my least satisfying raid groups over the years had a particular issue... with a simple /roll system, MS>OS, we had two very annoying (but well meaning) people who would roll for any upgrade, major or minor, and then would often give the upgrade away to whoever they thought was most worthy regardless of whether they were #2 on the roll or even rolled in the first place.

      What you're doing with the /roll + discussion afterward is similar to that and it's wrong... it shouldn't happen. Similarly problematic is someone who /rolls on a minor upgrade, if the #2 roller is someone they consider worthy they "never mind" the item and it goes to #2, if it isn't, they keep it.

      Anyone who ponies up for loot, even if it's just a /roll, has to be accountable for doing that. If they "never mind" a roll they win, there should be a re-roll. Similarly, anyone who wins an item and tries to give it away should result in a re-roll for the loot. The whole POINT of /roll is that it's random and fair, it's not supposed to be optimal and you can't have a sub-rule for rolls that plays favourites. If you want optimal, go with another loot system entirely.

    4. Fair is up to interpretation.

      If something is a side grade and you say it is okay for someone to roll on a side grade because it might give them minimal (like 200 DPS) increase because it might never drop again, then it would be best put in the hands of someone that can actually use it instead of someone that wants it for greedy purposes with little or no actual gain from it.

      It is not fair, never has been and never will be, for someone to roll on something they don't need just to keep it out of the hands of another person. If you really believe that is fair I would be surprised if anyone ever raided with your loot rules that allows people to roll for things they really do not need just to deny someone else getting it, because I sure as hell wouldn't.

      @ 2nd post.

      I would not let those people roll on gear again. It is not their place to decide who gets gear.

      What I am doing is following the roll rules of the raid, the only discussion is because people complained about it. What the hell are you talking about? I did nothing wrong. I followed my own rules, they complained, I was just asking if they were right and I should have done something differently.

      I hate when people win stuff and then want to pass on it, always mucks up the works. If someone gets in the habit of doing that they move down my list of people I invite and will eventually not even get an invite to the raid. I judge people on their actions. How people handle loot is HUGE in how I judge people.

      Like a few weeks ago a tier piece dropped on of the damage dealers could have used. A healer rolled and said, it will give me my four piece set if I win. They said, I pass then, go get your four piece, even if it would have been upgrading an LFR piece for them.

      Now that is a person I want on my raid team.

      You always seem to be talking about the /roll in terms of pugs. These are not pugs, this is a full guild group. There should never be any issues in a full guild group. If there is, you know who goes to the bottom of my list? The people that caused the drama.

      I do not like drama, I hate loot drama even more. I do not care if you are gods gift to the game and the greatest player that ever lived. You cause loot drama, I do not want to raid with you.

    5. Alright, let me clarify... I'm only mentioning pugs because in my experience, premade groups, even if they use /roll to any extent, aren't really using a /roll loot system, they're just using /roll as a tiebreaker if there isn't an obvious candidate to get it (and "obvious candidate" can be anything from biggest upgrade, to longest since they got an upgrade, to it being BiS for a particular class, etc). In that case, /roll is something you do after you determine who's eligible to roll, it isn't something you do first. If that's how your loot system works then that's my misunderstanding but I got the impression that you /roll first without any pre-filtering in terms of who should be eligible to roll (either through established loot rules or a quick discussion prior to the roll)... which makes no sense to me, in that case I'm not even sure why you're using /roll at all.

      Typically when my premades have brought in a pug or multiple, we've nixed our normal loot process and just went full /roll (with the one exception of the raid that had the "all eligible roll" rule as well) with a simple MS>OS. Literally, "if it's main spec and you want it, roll for it", gear goes to the high roller and you move on. Nobody ever complained because there was nothing to complain about, high roll is high roll. PUGs got a lot of the loot, though, which wasn't great for the normal raid team.

      Specifically, the "The Team Comes First" section near the bottom... as it points out, drama comes from a lack of clarity so if you're having issues with your loot policy, nail it down so there aren't any issues. I'm not blaming you or the ones complaining, the loot system itself or the way it's being applied seems to be the issue.

      And yes, if that dps and healer were the only two rolling I'd have no problem with the dps handing it off... if there was a 3rd rolling, though, I'd have the healer and the 3rd re-roll for it, if the dps decides he doesn't want it, he shouldn't have the ability to determine where it goes if there's more than one other interested party.

    6. You would be amazed how often I see people complain about the high roll getting the item. I have seen people rage quit over it. Not only the raid but the guild. The roll system, even if you are using just a pure straight roll system, needs to have additional rules. Like them or not, it needs to be done.

      Like rogues get priority on daggers even if an enhancement shaman can use it because it is better for them. Or we want to gear up our healers first so healers get priority on spirit gear even if your class can use spirit for hit. Something like that. Sure we might not use those specific rules, but even with a straight roll system it is required that there are some rules or someone will flip out even losing fair and square. Just as my two examples showed. Someone had issue with 2 people that won the roll because they thought someone else should have gotten it even if there was no reason for them to believe that way.

      We more so straight roll, with some rules, in the 25 man because it is still a rotating cast of characters. We might have 15-17 regulars but the others are usually fill ins from guild of people that really are not very good or friends of friends.

      This is what usually causes drama. Someone that has been there week in and week out has been looking for the caster trinket and then the caster trinket drops and the person that wins in is the lock that only once with us twice a month and tada you have massive loot drama because he does not "deserve" it.

      When you have a standard team, same people all the time, it is so much better. Like for the most part on my 10s when it is all people on their mains there are rarely even rolls, stuff drops, I say roll for it, and then I hand it to who I was going to give it to because that is the only person that rolled because the group knows what is best for the group. And that is how I like to run my raids, what is best for the group is best for me, not what is best for me is best for me.

      What the problem is, as I said, is that people hate to see someone else get loot they wanted. What I found odd about this situation was someone complain about a loot roll that did no matter to them at all as the two people that were rolling were a part timer that will never raid with us when we get 25 because they are not very good and an alt. In the end, who cares who got the piece. The person that won the roll gets the item. No big deal. But whenever there is a chance to create drama, someone will.

      If there are only 2 that rolled and the person wanted to pass it, that is all good. But if 7 people rolled for it and someone wanted to pass it usually the best "unwritten" rule would be it goes to the second highest, if nothing else was said otherwise. That person can not just say I am going to pass on it after getting it and then just give it to whoever they want to.

  7. As for the rest of the randomness. re: tank dps. I'm totally glad you did what you did. Great set of rules. They should be posted in every starting zone... Though on a different note, I wish tanks weren't rewarded for taking more damage. I hate the vengeance mechanic. I really like my hunter toolkit for trying to min damage, temporarily pulling things off of the tank, or tranq'ing them. But I never get to do that because all of my tanks are vengeance whores. I suppose it's nice, but I'd rather see a buff that gives them more dps for avoiding damage. Maybe vengeance could work with active mitigation, and any damage you parry/dodge/avoid/absorb/shield/whatever, gives you vengeance. Of course then the healers would complain that they couldn't pad their stats... meh... world wide rankings has created bad rewards, as much as I love ranking when I do well on a fight, I wish it weren't there to provide that bad incentive.

    Were I bored, it would never occur to me to do LFR. Granted, I have 3 90s, not a thousand (like some people). But with the advent of flex, especially with open raid, I just can't imagine putting myself through that hell. So it would never occur to me that it's something I should do. When "normal" becomes xrealm in 6.0, I can't imagine why anyone would ever do lfr again (though i can't imagine why anyone does it now...).

    Oh, and I love the shrine. I don't think I know anyone else who does. But it makes me happy. The music isn't the best ever, but it's also unique. Though of course nothing has ever come close to the Grizzly Hills, the shrine and MoP music in general has been pleasant to me.


    1. It would be beneficial to the game if they did have those rules in every zone, and enforced some sort of penalty for not following them.

      I am like that on my hunter. One of our players (world class, he is awesome and should be in a world first guild instead of ours but I am glad to have him) pours over logs for hours after each night and the other day he came to me and said, you were amazing on garrosh this week. I said, how so, he said you had 99.7 up time while doing engineers, the highest of anyone in the raid outside of the tank, you did the most damage and took the least damage. I said, I am a hunter, just doing my job. ;)

      They are changing tanking next expansion, can't wait to see what it was like. And just to note, I did not hog vengeance, I still used every defensive cooldown I had. If I was with healers I knew I might have tried to cheese it some and not used them, could have pushed 300, maybe even 320 that way if I had.

      Grizzly hills is another example of awesome wrath music that really fits the zone. I have not had many issues with MoP music over all, but the shine music really has pushed a few buttons with me lately.

      I do LFRs with alts because I can't be bothered with open raid. Sure I have used it and gotten some good groups, but sometimes I can spend an hour trying to find a group, it is so much easier to just enter the LFR and go about my day doing other things than sitting in open raid looking for a group forever.

  8. -I logged in this week to do Ordos. Won a neck piece that I already had...

    -That was a about it...

    -Good news though that Drak'Thul is getting connected to Skywall soon.

    -I keep the music off in game. I've never really been a fan of in-game music.

    -Smaller LFR groups sound a lot better, especially with dungeon-like difficulty.

    -Loot is complicated. In a 10man, it's much easier to manage and you can just do need before greed and let the team manage the rest, but with a 25... I don't know. When we did 25s for a while, we always had some pugs too, so it was mostly just need before greed.

    -Situation 1, I think you did the right thing. Situation 2, you should have taken it. But loot drama is really a pain in the ass. I prefer simple rules even if they're not necessarily optimal.

    -The Isle buffs are crazy. I had the +25% buff and did 600k on Ordos in 550 gear. It was epic! LOL!

    -I think MoP won't be released until the fall, which is fine. I'll be trying out TESO in the mean time (hopefully, it turns out to be a good game).

    1. Congrats on the connection, maybe you can get back into raiding soon.

      Have to love the island buffs, saw a mage do 890K on the tiger with the island buffs and spell stealing agility. He was not even heroics geared or anything.

      June 24th seems to be warlords day. At least that is the intended release date at the moment. Seems kind of hard to believe however being that is not really that far away. We can no go until fall with no new content, it will really put a hurting on the game. Heck, june would put a hurting on the game. It should be coming out in may the absolute latest.