Wednesday, February 5, 2014

AWM: If You Could Tell Who Was Boosted to 90?

I've made many posts over the course of the years where I pick a topic and argue with myself.  It is not always productive but I like to do it to help me see both sides of the story because I believe you can only make an informed opinion if you have, or at least can try to see, both sides of the conversation represented.

So while arguing with myself is nothing new this is the first such post of the type I have made in a long time.  Right now the topic that has me thinking is the new boost to 90 system that is being added to the game.  Either the free one or the purchasable one.  It is still the end result of a free level 90 character.

There is a thread over at mmo-c where they have been going at it for quite a while back and forth with people from both sides bringing up some very valid points.

To start off, before I argue with myself, I would like to share my opinion on the matter.

I have absolutely no real issues with the boost to 90 for the people that wish to use it.  It effectively gives them a character that they can start at the current starter level of content.  So when warlords comes out it would be starting at 90 and you will need to level to 100.  Basically jumping right into the game you purchased.  It would be the same as someone starting at level one in vanilla.  They are starting at the beginning of the game.  This difference is in allowing people to skip over many parts of the game to start at the beginning of an expansion.

With all that said however, my opinion on the matter might not actually fit what I just offered above even if those words are mine and I do fully agree with them.

I do not believe that you should be able to buy a level 90 of a character you do not currently have at level 90.  Which means, if I have a hunter at level 90, I can buy a level 90 hunter.  I can buy two or three or seventeen of them if I so wish.  I leveled a hunter, so why not let me skip that process and catch up with another one on another server, or create an additional one on my current server because I by far enjoy that class the most and it would be me another viable raiding toon.

I do not think that letting someone boost a character to 90 that they have never played should be allowed. It is my personal opinion on the matter and in the end really means nothing.  Blizzard is doing this as a cash grab and a way to get people back because the leveling process has become unnecessary.  It is more a way to waste some time for the people that wish to do it but with the constant focus on end game and end game only, leveling no longer has a place in the game (which is another post in its own all together).

Okay, now that we got my opinion on the whole buy a 90 out of the way, lets get to the heart of the question that they are talking about over in that mmo-c thread that has kept me reading and interested for some time now.

Should there be a way to tell who was boosted to 90?


For the very same reason you see people asking for outrageous requirements for flex like a 560 item level when it can be done in 510 there should be a way to see who has purchased their character.  While the 510 item level druid healer could easily do flex and do well in there a 560 druid healer should do better.  While both could end up bad, or the 510 could be the greatest druid healer ever while the 560 is just someone that never healed and got a lot of off spec drops from his guild raid runs but does not know how to play a druid healer the chances are that the 560 druid healer will be better are a little higher.  Being able to see who bought their character is just a tool in hoping to increase the chances of success, same as taking the better geared player.


I have seen countless people in pugs that were better geared than I do horrible like in a recent run with my newest hunter where a mage in almost all heroic gear, save 4 pieces, was getting his ass handed to him by me on every fight from my with my half LFR / flex flex geared hunter.  Gear does not equal skill, it just increases maximum potential.  If someone is not playing to their potential, they will still be bad, gear or no gear.  Also, as another example, I never played shadow as a priest but disc was going to take too long to kill stuff so I changed my priests off spec to shadow and used my healing gear and just looked up some guides on how to play shadow and I do just fine with it.  Although my hit rating is way over cap thanks to my spirit from being a healer and my stats are not balanced as they should be I would be hard pressed to think anyone could find anything wrong about how I play the character even if they might question my gearing, gemming and reforging choices.  It does not take a lot of time to learn how to play a character.


But that is talking about damage dealers.  There is a huge gap in playing a fresh damage dealer and a fresh healer.


But showing who purchased their characters would show everyone that did, not just healers, so using damage dealers as an example is fair game.


Well, back on topic, just like using item level or achievements or any other form of measuring stick before those were used to assemble a raid, shouldn't there be some way to tell who worked their character up and who took the easy route.


So you are saying that the person learned while leveling their character correct?


Yes, and that is why I would rather take someone that leveled their druid healer than someone that just purchased their druid healer.  Same as I would rather take the 560 geared one over the 510 geared one or the one that has completed the raid before over someone that has never seen the fights.  It is just a measuring method.


If it were buying instant level capped characters you might have a point, but these characters will not be level capped in warlords, which is where this is intended to be released.  Even if they purchase a level 90 in warlords and have no clue how to play one they still need to manage to make it 10 levels playing that level 90 before they get to the part of the game that matters, the end game.


It should still tell me even if it was something that happened 10 level ago.  Same as the ahead of the curve achievements.  They will be old by the time the next expansion comes out, old and out of date, but it would still show me who played their character in the past and I could easily say that means they still know how to play their character at least to some level of competence.


So what if I started a new account in warlords, leveled from 1-100 and of course being I am new I would not have those achievements.  Does that mean I am automatically a lesser player because of it.  Or lets say I was not a raider in mists and just wanted to start in warlords?  Or lets say I was in a bad guild that could not down anything and am not the type that likes to pug?  Because I do not have the achievements is means I am a bad player?


No, I am not saying that.  I am just saying that history does matter.  Your history of leveling from 1-100 should matter.  It shows you put the effort into it.  You should be noted as having earned your way to the end game instead of just starting with the new expansion and experiencing nothing.  So either label you are a character that earned their levels or label the people that purchased an instant 90 as people that skipped their entire leveling and learning experience.


Are you really saying that you believe there is a lot that can be learned from the leveling experience?  Don't get me wrong, I am a firm supporter in the idea that people do learn while leveling.  I think the leveling process should take longer and have more risks which would encourage people to learn.  But with leveling so streamlined that even a person with no heirlooms and no experience will run into little or no resistance on their quest to max level, is skipping that really going to hurt that badly in the learning department.


Whether it does or doesn't shouldn't be the issue.  It is a matter of someone who is trying and someone who isn't.  I would like to know who the people that aren't trying are and there should be a way to tell they are not trying.


So lets say there was a way to tell people that have been boosted.  I have multiple hunters, I have done the current raid on multiple hunters, I have the legendary on multiple hunters.  So I have more than ample experience in raiding as a hunter and at least at the normal level of content I am more then capable of doing it like the back of my hand being I have done it so often.  So you would call me at the least a person you would like to have along on your pugs as there is nothing in normal that is even remotely challenging to me.  Now lets say I wanted to play on another server with some friends or a different faction.  Lets say my buddy just needs a hunter for his raid team and my dance card of 90s is full but I can make one instantly to help him.  Now I would be marked as someone who bought this hunter.  I know how to play a hunter.  I have multiple 90 hunters already.  Does the fact I decided to buy one instead of level it really matter?  Will leveling my 20th hunter really make me that much better of a hunter? Does it effect how capable of playing the class I am?  Do I deserve to be looked down upon because I decided to skip the leveling process on a class I have already leveled many times?


You are talking about extreme circumstances.  Someone with your experience would just tell people that is an alt hunter.  You would tell them what you have done on your main, or mains as it may be.


But if it shows that I bought this character you have already prejudged me before you even spoke to me to hear that I have more hunters.  You have already judged me because I bought this character and that is wrong.


Again, you are talking about DPS, lets talk about healing for a moment.  You really do not want someone buying an instant healer do you?  If you see a bad damage dealer you can kick them and move along.  DPS are a dime a dozen and there is an easy tool like recount to show how they are doing.  So you look at damage done, see if they are following mechanics and you can kick them or keep them as need be.  Healers are not so simple when it comes to numbers.  Seeing high healing numbers does not mean they are a good healer.  It could mean that, but doesn't always mean that.  When trying to pick out which healer just is not cutting it being able to see who bought their healer would be a nice tool to have.


Why would it be a nice tool to have? So you can prejudge them or hold it against them.  You do realize that most people do not level as healers right?  Unless they level through dungeons or in a group that is.  Lets go to my shaman.  Enhancement since the day I created it.  It was all I ever wanted to be.  When cataclysm came out and basically ever healer with a brain quit, it meant idiots like me needed to heal if we wanted to get into a raid and I got myself some crap healing gear, spent a few hours on the forums and guide reading, and started to heal some heroics to start off with.  And do you remember those early pre nerf cataclysm heroics?  They were no laughing matter in a pug, not in the slightest.  I did just fine, I learned how to heal, and I ended up healing the raid until we could recruit some healers that the cataclysm healing model did not scare off.  I had absolutely zero healing experience.  I might as well just have been someone who purchased the character but you would think I was better than I really was just because the character was a few years old?


Again, extreme circumstances. Most people would not put forth the effort you did to learn to play the class.  You where doing it for your guild so you could raid, you put effort into learning how to do it.  You earned the right to be looked at as someone who at least has some experience even if you were new at it.  Seeing who bought a character or who leveled a character is just another measuring stick, once again, the same as looking at a 510 item level compared to a 560 item level.  It will not, can not, be the perfect way to judge but it is something we should be able to look at just like we would item level.


I am going to end this conversation right now with one little piece of logic.  There will be a way to tell who purchased a 90.  Just look at their achievement and you will see that their level 10, level 20, level 30, etc achievements all on the same day all the way up to 90.  So there will be a way to tell in game already.  I am sure someone will make an addon to check for this, because that is what people do, so why argue if there should or shouldn't be a way to tell when there will be a way to tell, it is already built into the game.


Good, so now I can kick anyone that purchased a 90.


Oh geez, that is another conversation all together. ~sigh~

End note:

For the record, I do not believe there should be a way to tell if the purchased a 90.  I dislike that people can look at achievements to tell.  I do however believe they should make it that you need to have a 90 of that class to be able to buy another one.  But to each their own.  What do you think about it?

Now to the next topic, do you think people should be kicked for buying an instant 90? 

Note:  There will be no such post, no one should be kicked because they bought something.  Only because or attitude, language, performance or connection, but not because they have some disposable cash.  I can't even argue with myself over that, there is no other side.


  1. Godfrey Daniel, what else are people who play WOW going to bitch about.

    You know me, I don't raid or flex or anything, but the other day I wanted to try it out - guess what - everyone was looking for ilvl 510 minimum plus the legendary cloak otherwise you aren't sh!t as the person putting together the event said. Screw that.

    So, no flexing or raiding or anything, here. But if one can get an instant 90 with all the perks, why not.

    Don't want any feedback on any of this - but if Blizzard is selling a toon for 90, decked out, when will they start selling gold and gear?

    1. No matter what they do there will be someone out there that will complain about it.

      I'd take you along on a flex clear. Maybe even give you some huntering tips while we are at it. Some people just ask for a lot so they can have a super easy run, they do not realize that not everyone is at the same level of play.

      That is a good question, it is the slippery slope thing. As soon as they sell 90s (because they are old) what is to stop them from selling last tiers gear? And then what is to stop them from selling old rare mount drops because they are old? And then... you get the idea. Slippery slope.

  2. I think if you mark who's purchased a level 90 you would create a second class sort of citizen and I can tell you that is never a desirable outcome. As for leveling the class I don’t give a flip if you leveled it I leveled my monk from 1-90 but I couldn’t tell you how to dps with it I probably don’t even know the names of the spells. Or what they do.

    1. Just hit the 1 and 2 button all the way to 90 and you will be fine. I know what you mean. It has been that way since cataclysm when they decided that leveling no longer matters.

      I made a post back then saying that they would be selling pre leveled classes soon. I was right.

    2. Exactly, I just leveled up a mage to 90 recently. I had to go look up online how to actually play it once I hit 90 and I still suck at it. Same problem with my DK. I leveled as Blood but decided I don't want to tank so I switched it to Unholy.... I have no idea how to play Unholy. I need to go look it up and then practice it.

      I've mentioned before that Blizz can't put any restrictions on it since you get a free 90 with WoD. If the buy a 90 has restrictions, people will just buy another box and pay for the transfer to get around any restrictions.

    3. On restrictions that Blizzard could put - of course, they could do a lot:

      First, they could disallow transferring boosted chars to other accounts, permanently. Bam, no more buy new account - get free boost - transfer boosted char to real account. If you want to play a boosted char, you have to SWITCH to another account. So, either you pay for two accounts from now on, or you abandon your previous main. Yes, some people might still do it, but it will reduce the problem significantly.

      Second, they could do the entire free boost this way - suppose WoD comes on September, 1 (don't read too much into the date, that's just an example). OK, on August, 1, you tell people that whoever had an account bought prior to August, 1, will get the boost, others won't. Bam. 99.99% of all who could possibly qualify as a "returning player" get a single free boost (more than one, if they had multiple accounts, but that's fine, they went to lengths of having multiple accounts before, they didn't do that because of the boost, no abuse, they can have their reward), and nobody else doesn't.

      But it's not what they want - they don't want to make it easier for returning players, they want to sell the "skip the boring part and start directly with raids" to NEW players, so what I suggest above won't work.

      So, since leveling is so bad, they should simply do away with the paid boost and offer a free boost to everyone. With a cooldown of two months or something like that if they don't want "the abuse" whatever that'd mean now (given that the boost itself is already an abuse of the game).

      There are plenty of things they could do. They don't do it because they just want the money and they don't care much about other things.

    4. @Jaeger

      They could put restrictions on the free 90. One being that only returning players get the free 90. That way people will not just buy it and get the free 90. Simple enough.

      @ PvP Anon

      Noticed I said the same thing as you before I went on to read your post. I agree the returning player way would be the best. But I would say that it should work for anyone that had an active account before WoD preorder was released qualifies only.

      And I agree, this is just a cash grab and people like myself would be tempted to buy one instead of level on the next time a friend says, come roll on my server. Okay, I will start with a level 90 hunter, oh, you need a tank, sure, I will make a level 90 druid, oh, you need a healer, I will make a level 90 priest.

      I really think they should do away with leveling, but the big question is, what would become of the world if they did. We know that people only care about the most recent content and so does blizzard. Would they be willing to throw the rest of the world away as something that will never be used again?

    5. folks already do something similar with DK's - start one and it is at level what, 56 or 57 (I dont remember). Throw on some heirlooms and within a few weeks be at 90. :D

      So people getting all upset, well I guess they must have split their milk with their cookies.


    6. Heck, I can make a new level 1 and with no heirlooms, no guild and no bonus be 90 in less than 2 days played. It is not like leveling takes much time any more if you know what you are doing and only just a little more even if you don't.

  3. I hate the boost.

    Fine, questing takes a long time and is boring if you are doing it for the fifth time, but why the instant boost? Why not much more powerful heirlooms (like 3x or 5x more powerful), for example? Or, heck, a 10x exp per hour BOA elixir which only a level 90 can buy? Alright, that's still too slow for you, you want that to be instant, fine, why make that a PAID service??? We have a SUB goddammit, and we are paying extra for every expansion, why the F should this be paid EXTRA for? And, yes, no doubt they will extend the boost to go all the way to 100 and sell more things, we've talked about it.

    I remember when we were talking about transmog helms on this blog along the same veins - would you really kick someone who bought the helm? My position was - yes, kicking is unpleasant, but it might send a signal (long story), so it's OK on these grounds. Well, we now see the boost, and, frankly, I don't care about the kicking anymore. I think those who buy extra things DO harm the game for me in that their actions tell Blizzard "it's OK to add more paid services into this game with the paid sub, it's probably OK to even add artificial walls (like reduce drop rates or reduce exp gain or not do anything to make leveling 1-90 better), we'll gladly pay extra to pass these walls (cough, we're going to pay for character boost to avoid the boredom and tediousness of leveling, aren't we)", but the real issue isn't with people, it's with Blizzard.

    I hate what Blizzard are doing to the game.

    1. You seem to be of the stance many are. We already pay so we should not have to pay for me. While I agree with the concept of what you are saying I do not agree in this case. This is a bonus, this is an extra, is this not part of your subscription. That just gives you access to the servers. Not the characters on it. You still have that access, if you want a ready made character you can level it yourself or pay for it.

      I said a LONG time ago, even before the helm thing, that they would be selling auto leveled characters. I knew it was coming, you knew it was coming, anyone with half a brain knew it was coming.

      You will hate it more when I can have better PvP gear than you because I am willing to spend cash to get it and you are slowly earning it in game. (not saying I would, just making an example)

  4. Also, I realize it's OT, but carrying on from "I hate what Blizzard are doing to the game", the future of WoW really seems very bleak to me. What's the state of the game now? It's this (opinion):

    * PVE - I thought MOP had good raids, heard others say the same, but 10+ months of SOO??? Way too long. And that's despite their assurances of having learned their lesson with the lengths of ICC / DS. Legendary questline was kind of a mixed bag, talked about that earlier.

    * PVP - took a heavy dive in the beginning of MOP, then they kinda brought it back to Cata levels, and that's where it currently sits (their changes are constantly one step forward, one step back). They promised lots of focus on PVP, they even said MOP would be "the PVP expansion", but in reality it never lived up to the promise. MOP PVP was NOT an improvement on even Cata PVP, and Cata PVP was already worse than LK PVP (speaking very broadly here, but the difference is large and it's not rose-tinted glasses at all). That's pathetic. I appreciate Holinka's talking to us via Twitter, but in the end... it's the game that matters and it just... Did. Not. Improve. Even compared to Cata. So, I'd rather Holinka shut up and we had a better game.

    * WoD - don't see a lot of good, quite frankly. MOP did good with new systems (thanks for scenarios, the farm, battle pets, Brawler's Guild, etc), WoD seems to have much less of new systems and I am not buying that they will improve existing systems so much that we'd say "thanks that you didn't do anything new and spent all your time polishing existing stuff, it is so much better now". In fact, I am not buying that what they will do to existing systems - such as gear or 5-man instances - will be appreciably better than what we had in MOP, and I am sure it will be WORSE in more than one place (eg, we WILL have significantly less quests, that's less content, they did say that, same for 5-man instances at launch).

    Plus, of course, we have the store. Thanks for paid character boost, Blizzard, that's really encouraging. You are totally not going to sell gear or anything like that, we hear you. Yeah. Except you have just revealed that there's a special "bonus" in the boost, which one could use to buy level 600 professions - but of course that was unintentional, you did this just out of your care for players. Etc...

    It doesn't look good to me. Heck, D3, for all its faults, almost seems to have better perspectives to me these days than WoW.

    Sorry for the rant.

    1. Deep Breath it will be fine :)

    2. I understood what you meant. I thought over all even if I could complain about at lot this expansion this was a very good one. Not as good as wrath but leaps and bounds better than cataclysm and on par with BC, even slightly ahead of it.

      It was good, but I too fear for the where the game is heading. But like anything else, in the end it comes down to do. We will either adapt, or quit, or in my case, be grumpy about either.

  5. The more of these arguments I'm seeing, the more I'm coming to one inescapable fact...

    Any restrictions on purchased 90s that people are requesting as 100% arbitrary. None of them have any real basis for existing and in almost all cases the restrictions will only impact other people, not them.

    Purchased 90s should have zero restrictions on them, period, beyond possibly an optional tutorial, a solo scenario that teaches you the abilities that you would have learned during the leveling process. I'd also make that tutorial available to other 90 players, not just purchased ones, to keep a level playing field.

    Too many people are focusing on the immediate impact of purchased 90s... you'll have a player who, possibly, has a 90 toon of a class they haven't played before. So what? That's true right now but once they've actually played the game a bit, whether questing, doing scenarios, 5-mans, LFR, etc, they'll have had the same opportunity to learn how to play as anyone else.

    My monk leveled to 90 as Windwalker... I tried healing at max level. It isn't exaggerating to say that I had NO CLUE what I was doing and my performance mirrored that, despite having done some healing with all other classes in the game... leveling taught me NOTHING. So, anyone arguing against purchased 90s based on ANY criteria is basically arguing that spec changes shouldn't be allowed, if I want to play a spec other than the one I leveled in, I need to level another toon to learn it and I can play the new spec on THAT toon.

    Not going to happen, nor should it in that case, nor should it with 90s. People need to stop stressing about what other people are going to do or not do as a result, we've NEVER had any real control over what other people do... either they're quality players or they aren't, how they got their 90 is completely unrelated to that. People who purchase 90s will be doing it due to a) having more money than time (or less time than money) and/or b) wanting a new 90 for some time-sensitive reason. Neither of those has any influence toward or from skill level. It just isn't a factor, someone on their first 90, whether leveled or purchased, WILL BE WORSE THAN YOU (I'm including everyone who'd even consider reading a WoW-related blog). First toon ever, first toon of a role, first toon of a class, ninth hunter... the particular circumstances of the player making the decision won't have any impact over whether a 90 is purchased or leveled or never created in the first place.

    1. pertty much hit the nail on the head "R". : D


    2. I believe I heard there would be some sort of death knight experience for the instant 90s. (unless I read that wrong)

      You are not the average player, that is why you could pick up a new spec at max level. The majority of players can not even pick up the spec they leveled in by 90.

      As to your statement that there is nothing we can do I must disagree completely. When leveling took a longer time it worked as a buffer. Bad players would give up and never make it to max level. Now that leveling is faster we see more and more clueless players that would have never even made it to 40 back in vanilla never the less max level.

      Time is the only buffer we can have, instant 90s remove a significant part of that time, as in all of it.

      There were always bad players, but time worked as a net that caught and they never made it to max level. That would be like telling people, no need to go to school as long as your parents have lots of money, they will just buy you the vice presidency in some company they don't know anything about. It is wrong, flat out wrong.

      Not saying I would not buy one, I most likely will, I need a few profession mules horde side. But I earned that right by leveling all 11 classes. Yes, it is only my opinion. Yes, I am saying that because I don't believe someone should be given something for free which even if they are using cash, they are getting it for free.

      So while I agree with most of what you said, I still do not think they should be out there with no restrictions what so ever.

      It shows blizzard does not care about the game or the community and how it plays out. All they care about is their bottom line and they know that people will buy them and buy lots of them and they do not care what that does to the community.

      Maybe for once they should consider working on their community to build a better game and more will come to it then selling something for a quick buck that could, or will, hurt the community.

    3. Not sure I've ever seen a blogger pull out a trade troll argument and position it as an actual point... :)

      You're basically taking the troll position that "anyone below me shouldn't be in my game." In terms of making your experience optimal, sure, that'd be nice... but it wouldn't actually WORK, nor is anyone actually entitled to that.

      Everyone paying their $12-15/month is allowed to play regardless of skill level, desire to improve, hours played, etc. If you magically filtered out everyone who didn't fit whatever arbitrary level you've set - in this case, 11 classes to max - you'd be filtering out... what, 96% of the players?

      So, all of a sudden that 7.6 (or 7.8) million subscription number, bringing in $100M+ per month, becomes $4M+/month... the current game wouldn't be sustainable at that level. You NEED those players in order to subsidize YOUR GAME.

      I see this argument from those who claim to be top raiders... "if you don't heroic raid, GTFO" (I actually saw this recently). They're idiots... if that actually happened, THERE WOULD BE NO RAIDS, or at the very least the game landscape would change significantly.

      There is absolutely no reason why someone should have to have leveled a class to max before leveling another one. There's no reason why someone should have to have leveled any toon to max before buying another one. I would RECOMMEND that players have some experience before jumping in at 90 but there's absolutely no reason why it should be a REQUIREMENT. If I'm recommending the game to a buddy who doesn't play, I'm going to tell him to make a new toon to level on his own and screw around at his pace and I'm going to tell him to make a 90 where I can teach him end-game stuff. If there are ANY restrictions put on the instant 90 I won't be able to do that, and that's RIDICULOUS. Your desire that only the elites be allowed to buy 90s would be insignificant compared to my desire to play with my buddy. More players = more active game = more subscription dollars = more money to create content / hire additional resources = better game. BETTER GAME. You're arguing against the possibility of having a better game. It's an unsustainable position...

    4. It is not a trade troll point, it is a concern of many out there. Valid or not. All I am doing it stating it and saying why they believe that way. Remember the title of the post is arguing with myself. To effectively do that, I need to take both sides.

      You seem to believe I do not want them selling things when I am just making an argument.

      I actually support blizzard selling things. When the sparkle pony came out I made a post directed at all the people complaining about the people that purchased it saying that they should thank the people the purchased it, not complain bout them. They are spending money to keep our game going and hopefully make it better.

      "There is absolutely no reason why someone should have to have leveled a class to max before leveling another one."

      Actually there. Because I did, because you did, because nearly 100 million people that played this game and probably 500 million or even 1 billion alts have.

      So they all needed to level and that is as good a reason as any reason why others should have to level.

      It is a completely valid point and you not being able to see it is actually short sighted.

      It will become people saying, and using your exact words but changing one part.

      "There is absolutely no reason why someone should have to have kill a boss to get gear before buying another piece for an alt."

      Do you agree with your own argument now?

      Saying people do not need to level is the same as saying they do not need to kill a boss in game to get loot.

      Slippery slope.

    5. I was responding specifically to your earlier comment:

      "Not saying I would not buy one, I most likely will, I need a few profession mules horde side. But I earned that right by leveling all 11 classes. Yes, it is only my opinion. Yes, I am saying that because I don't believe someone should be given something for free which even if they are using cash, they are getting it for free."

      You earned that right? Elitism, plain and simple. I hadn't even read this when I posted the "uphill both ways" comment below but this is right in that scope as well. Just because we had to do it that way does NOT automatically mean that others should as well. WoW is a 10 year old game and we've even agreed that it has basically morphed into two different games in one subscription... the leveling game and end-game. Why, having leveled toons to max, do you have some right to skip a toon to end-game that someone who hasn't doesn't? There is no benefit to anyone by having that restriction... and if I'm wrong, fill me in on who benefits.

      No, that's not the same argument at all and it's so different I'm not even sure how to respond. End-game gear <> leveling? Leveling = trivial, killing bosses and winning the RNG battle = significantly less trivial? For end-game players, leveling to 90 is the start of the game, for many players, once they get all the gear they want, the game is over for that toon until new content is released?

      Completely different.

      It's not a slope... the moment they decided to give everyone a free 90 they HAD to sell 90s and there's no actual reason to limit them beyond cost... unless you're willing to argue against the free 90 which would re-open something that I thought was pretty much baked opinion-wise, there's really nothing to debate here.

    6. "You earned that right? Elitism, plain and simple."

      Fact, plain and simple. Stating a fact is not elitism, it is just stating a fact.

      Elitism means you believe you are better than others. I do not believe that, I believe everyone can do exactly what I did because want I did was nothing special. You can not call someone elitist for saying everyone can do it when, by actual facts, everyone can.

      It is not me saying everyone should raid heroic, because everyone can't. They just do not have the skill to do so. Anyone can level as it does not require any level of skill what so ever. Just work. It is not elitist in even the slightest way to say what I said and I can not imagine what the heck you are smoking to think that leveling a character makes someone elitist.

      I agree that the second they decided to give away a free 90 they had to sell them. They say they announced the free 90s I even made a post saying they would be selling them as well with no actual facts to back me up because I knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that is exactly what would happen. It was the only logical step.

      Leveling, while trivial (now), is a constant moving forward, making progress. It is a every forward journey. That is the fun part of the game, progressing.

      End game is end game, it is over, it is boring, it is done. No matter what your end game is from just hitting max level to raiding heroics, there is no progressing once you reach there.

      This is why I say leveling is a better part of the game than end game. Leveling offered progression, reward, sense of accomplishment each and every quest you finish or mob you kill whereas end game is kill the same thing 1001 times until you get the one piece of loot you want that really means nothing because they will just add another piece of loot off another boss you will need to kill 1001 times to get.

      They ditched the best part of the game for the rush to max level and now they are selling a way to skip the best part of the game even faster. I am not a fan, not at all. And like I said, I still admit, I will buy some too because even if I do love leveling only an fool would waste time in a place not even blizzard cares about. It is all about the end game. It is all about boring repetitive BS. Welcome to the new world of warcraft.

  6. The only restriction I would even think about adding to the boosts is that you need at least one max level (100) character before purchasing any additional boosts. You'd still get the WoD boost, but if you want any more after that you should get a character up to the cap before using another. Make the achievement a requirement to drink the boost potion. There's the added benefit that this applies to everybody equally right now.

    But, it still leaves behind some new player who boosts a rogue and then decides at 92 that they just don't like melee DPS. Should they be forced to start over from 1 on a new character and be stuck even further behind their friends, or grind out a character that they will just end up resenting?

    Should lower tiers of boost be available to match the previous expansion starts at 60/70/80/85 (in store or in game via gold/jp/hp/vpcp)?

    Should boosts be transferable? Could I buy a boost for a friend as a birthday/xmas gift? Would selling boosts for gold be a ToS violation or welcomed like pet trading?

    It's a complex situation that is being debated by most people via knee-jerk reactions. It's the small details that will make or break this system, not the moral outrage currently being trumpeted all over the net.

    1. Should boosts be transferable?
      I don't think they will be, but there is a way around that.

      Could I buy a boost for a friend as a birthday/xmas gift?
      Yes, buy your friend a copy of all warcraft games including warlords and they get the free 90 on that licence and then they can transfer it to their main. That is how you could do it. At least as it seems to stand now.

      Would selling boosts for gold be a ToS violation or welcomed like pet trading?
      Yes it would be, just like subscription time for gold is against ToS, or selling pet card codes for gold is against ToS.

      We are all being pretty knee jerk about it. I like the level 100 idea. Someone like myself will still be able to buy a 90 on day one warlords is released so it would not effect me. lol Yes, I am one of "those" people that always cap the day the expansion comes out.

    2. "The only restriction I would even think about adding to the boosts is that you need at least one max level (100) character before purchasing any additional boosts."

      Simple question... who exactly would benefit from that limitation?

    3. No one really and it will never happen. Blizzard is doing this for money, not the health of the game. If they cared about the health of the game they would make people want to level, not want to skip it.

      When me, someone who has often said I love to level, would still be willing to buy 90s to skip it, it says a hell of a lot about their leveling system.

    4. Focus on the first part... no one really is the right answer, nobody benefits so why even consider having that sort of limitation? There's too much "I had to walk uphill to school both ways in the snow" (the US version might not include snow) going on with this discussion, here and elsewhere. Just because we grunted it out doesn't mean that grunting it out is the best solution to offer.

      It doesn't really say anything about the leveling system in your case, though... you've done it, lots of times. As have I. Can you design a leveling system that's close to as interesting the 10th time through? I certainly can't... I'm pretty sure someone playing the game for the first time without a bunch of nattering pros throwing snarky comments at them would have a great time, especially after the Cataclysm revamp. It's there for folks who want it and, presumably, it'll be avoidable for those who don't. Win/win, no?

    5. I understand what you mean and even can agree with it. Just because someone else had it harder doesn't mean I should. So no one really benefits. Only blizzard with the money they make from it and that is what it is all about. Money.

      The issue is with what you said "it'll be avoidable" and anyone with a few bucks will avoid it. Even me, someone that likes leveling.

      So why do something like this and even leave the leveling process in game? If they think so little of it, remove it. Find something else to do with those zones.

      I have no issue with them allowing people to "skip" what I went through, but do not leave it there and call it an "option" to buy it. It is not an option, it is a requirement. So make it fair for everyone. Remove the leveling process and start everyone at 90. Don't sell it. I would not be adverse to that at all, but I am to selling 90s.

  7. Personally there should be no restrictions. The idea is that a new player can come in and not have the daunting feeling of needing to level 100 levels to catch up to their friend. This is more about the new player than the existing player as they need new players to keep subs up.

    Personally the price for it will be rediculous and it's not a smart idea to pay for it, but that's more due to another program they already have, RaF. For $5 I just recently did RaF again and I leveled 11 new 85's in just over a month while still playing the other aspects of the game. I could have done a single character in probably a day. I can guarantee the price will be more than $5 per toon, so it wouldn't be worth it. Even a new player could easily level a toon using RaF with a friend that plays in almost no play time, but this way they get that first character for free. The friend could even set up RaF on the new person's account and gift them to 85. So getting a boost to 90 I see no real difference between that and RaF, but I don't think it will be worth the expense. The people that will buy it will not care about the money and want zero effort.

    As you and others already pointed out, nothing says I know how to play a spec at all just because I leveled. If you have a friend to level with, one toon could have been on follow the entire time and still "leveled" to 90. Someone at 90 that wants to try a new spec basically has to relearn everything anyways so I see no difference between that and getting an instant 90. The instant 90 will actually, supposedly, do more to slowly introduce the spells to you, where as switching specs you just have every spell thrown at you and you have to figure out what to do.

    For most people if they already had a toon of one class they probably don't want another one. This is an easy way for them to try a different class without having to level completely again. I don't think many people will use it to get another of a class they already have. Yes there are those of us that have every class at 90, or multiples of classes but that is extremely rare I would think. If they made current raid tier cross server for all difficulties than you wouldn't need to worry about wanting more of a given class just on a different server as much. That's the change I'd like to see.

    Hell for all I care they could make it a free level 100 so long as it's not a way to be the server first 100.

    I didn't see them say that they are going to include the professions with it, but I hope instead they just take another look at what it takes to level a profession from scratch when you have none. I think there needs to be a profession squish along the same lines of the item squish. Really not looking forward to leveling 22 professions from 0-600 again.

    1. I've often said it myself that from the outside looking in and seeing 90 (soon 100) levels can be a turn off to drawing in new players. This could very well get some new players into the game because they would not feel like picking it up they are so far behind.

      Even if we know how fast leveling is and that the first 90 levels are a joke to someone that does not know it seems like it will take forever.

      If it were $5 per toon I would have 50 90s the second they released it. lol Kidding of course, but that is way too low. I am thinking more of the 60-80 range minimum.

      But who would not want 50 level 90 hunters? That is a dream come true.

      If they ever make it a "current" level cap I would hope they do not do it until the second raid tier came up. Only because it would be a good way for people to catch up and come back, but with the initial release they are on par with everyone else if they have to level. So they might as well level.

      They are going to include professions if you character is level 60. So if you have a level 60 and pay for the boost it will get its professions caught up as well.

    2. That $5 wasn't for one toon either it was 11. Can you point me to the thing about the profession boosts? I didn't see that said officially. If that's the case it would be worth it to level another toon to 60 and just pick two professions and not level them while I still have RaF.

    3. There was nothing official posted. It is just datamined stuff that has been spoken about on various podcasts and written about in various fan sites. Look for veteran bonus strings from the boost the 90 string and you will see that if your character is 60 you will also get professions boosted.

      $5 for all 11, I would need another account, I would make armies on every server and take over the world. ~in a pinky & the brain sounding voice~

      As for your idea, I have a whole slew of alts I was playing in the 60s range that I have not touched and have no intention of touching now, just in case I decided to take advantage of that.