Friday, August 24, 2012

Is There a Double Standard For Damage Dealers?

Keeping with the ongoing series of posts I've made about the difficulty of playing the role of the damage dealer I would like to address something I have seen interjected in the comments that makes me believe that there is a double standard when it comes to people who play the role of the damage dealer.

While most seem to disagree with me that there is difficulty with the role of being a damage dealer I hold the stance that to get the most you can out of the role it is the hardest.  The closer you get to doing your maximum potential the harder it becomes to reach it.

I wonder why so many people seem to disagree with that concept because mathematically it is about as accurate as you can get.  When judging what someone does in reference to their maximum potential, it is the hardest.

So why are so many people so willing to give damage dealers a free pass?

Most of the people in the comments say that there are three damage dealers in a five man so if one, or even two, are not very good as long as the third one is you will have no problem.  While I agree with this statement 100% I am not so willing to give those bad damage dealers a free pass and say its fine because we still downed the boss.

If someone is trying and doing even 70% of their potential I give them credit where credit is do, at least they are trying their best.  They are trying to do well, that is all I ever ask.  While I do believe that 80% of your maximum potential is the threshold were you reach the "doing good" marker that is only a personal opinion.  Some might say you are not doing good even if you are only doing 80% while others seem to think as long as the group as a whole can do it no matter what you do you are doing good.

So why do those damage dealers get a free pass?  Is it a double standard.

While I have not done the LFR in a while, I think once in the last 4 months, I will never get those runs out of my head.  It is hard to forget such failure of epic proportions.  Thinking back on them however I see how people used their kicks.  They used them on tanks and healers.  Very rarely did they use them on damage dealers that really deserved it.  I've seen tanks and healers that did nothing wrong get kicked and damage dealers that sucked beyond the imaginable be allowed to stay.  Usually when a damage dealer was kicked it was because they had a big mouth, not because they were doing badly.  I've seen top DPS kicked because of their attitude, not their numbers.  But not the bottom feeders, nope, they are allowed to stay.

People with a 390 item level doing 9K DPS.  These are the people I am talking about.  9K DPS at that item level is not even trying.  9K DPS at that item level is a hunter just auto shooting and never hitting an ability.  Yet the most people might say is his damage sucks but they let it pass if the boss died.

Why does the community just let them slide?

I argue that if DPS is as easy as everyone seems to think it is, why are there so many so bad at it?

This is the reason.  There is a double standard when it comes to damage dealers.  Sure, you got the boss down, but doing bad is doing bad.  I'm sorry, there are no ifs, ands or buts about it.  Doing bad is doing bad.  A tank that does badly gets the boot even if the boss is downed no problem, I've seen it a million times.  A healer that does badly gets the boot even if the boss is downed no problem, I've seen that even more.  But unless there is a wipe and you are not meeting the DPS requirements people let damage dealers that do badly slide.

Three guild mates, all DPS, all way over geared for it, went into DS in the LFR the other week and were telling me what the final fight looked like.  A druid, a rogue and a hunter.  They all wanted to challenge each other to see who could do the most DPS.  The hunter won pulling 72K on madness where the druid and rogue were both right behind him at 69K and 68K respectively.   Nice enough numbers right?  I was surprised when they said what the rest of the DPS looked like.  Do you know what number 4 looked like?  46K.  Not really bad right?  That was it however.  No one else in the group did over 30K.  Only 4 other even did more than 20K, 2 of those where the tanks.  So we are talking a damage boosting fight where 8 out of 19 (17 DPS + 2 tanks) were even capable of breaking 20K.  That is bad with a super huge B at the front.

No one said a word about it.  No one said a word about it because my three guild mates basically compensated for them doing such low numbers and that is the problem.  Someone should have said something.  Just because someone else does well doesn't mean it gives everyone else a pass to do horrible.

Damage dealers get a free pass to be bad because of the good damage dealers.  I don't care if you got the boss down, bad is bad.  Doing 9K DPS with a 390 item level is bad dead boss or not.

To me it seems like there is a double standard when it comes to people that play the role.  Tanks and healers are held to a higher standard than DPS are.  People will say because there are only one of them each in a five man is the reason and while that might be true it should not be.  Everyone should be held to the same standard.  Everyone should do well, even a damage dealer that has two others to back them up.  If you are going to kick a tank for doing badly or a healer for doing badly, then you should kick that damage dealer for doing badly even if his/her damage is not needed because the other two are doing well.  It is a double standard to kick the tank or healer when you say it is no big deal that the one damage dealer is doing badly.

Stop supporting the double standard.  Hold each damage dealer accountable for their own actions.  Even if they were not required to do well because the others had it handled, still kick them.

The community is teaching these damage dealers it is okay to do badly.  It is teaching them they do not need to get better.  It teaches them that damage dealing is easy.

Stop the cycle of coddling and lies.  Stop the double standard.

If a damage dealer does badly treat them the same way you would a tank that can not hold aggro or a healer that can not keep the tank up.  Kick them.

Just because DPS B and DPS C are doing 30K does not give DPS A the right to do 5K in gear he should be doing 30K in as well.  Stop the double standard that it is okay for damage dealers to do badly.

That is the reason most people think DPS is easy.  Because they can still down bosses with someone in the group doing horrible because there are two others doing well.  Just because you down a boss does not mean everyone did well.  Sorry, that statement is false.  They did well enough, but well enough is not good enough. 

Play your role and play it right.   Hold everyone to the same standards and perhaps damage dealers will start getting better.  Judge each damage dealer as if they were the only one there.

Stop the double standard.  Stop treating damage dealers as a group and judge them on an individual basis.

As someone said it is a matter of perspective.

As a main damage dealer, I ask more of my damage dealers.  I know how hard it is and I respect that it will take time to master your craft and you might still never master it.  All I ask is that they try.  I am sick and tired of people not even trying and other people saying it is okay just because the boss is dead.  It is not okay just because the boss is dead.  It is not okay to just skate by without trying.

If people won't even try then why do you even play?  I don't get it and I don't think I ever will.

Stop treating damage dealers with a double standard and letting them slide.


  1. You are doing the double standard thing yourself, You keep it to basics for Healers and Tanks (keep threat and keep people alive, that’s their job) Then DPS you actually go into detail about how they can do better, as they are the only ones that can do better. You go into detail about how they can always push harder, better CD management, Raid buff timing, always getting more out... What about healers keeping people up AND doing DPS, interrupting casts, CC adds (Same goes for tank) You can’t say well that isn’t there role. Nowhere does it say that CC/Interrupting is strictly a DPS role. So yes there is always room for improvement for all roles. You say healers can only heal for the amount or raid damage being put out, so then DPS/Interrupt, same for tanks, Once they are holding threat they can’t work on increasing their DPS. Yes all of these are a part of our roles.

    Blizzard set a threshold on the mobs you kill in game. If you can beat that threshold of DPS then that IS good enough. period. If it wasn’t, the boss/mob wouldn’t die.

    What if you had all 390 geared players all pulling 9k DPS, and mobs still died? No one carrying them, is that not good enough? No one in the game will ever get 100% out of there toon, they're too many variables.

    With every example you have given there has always been someone carrying someone else. Also, DPS can only DPS so much, there is a mathematical limit to how much each and every class can put out. So no, they can’t keep getting better all of the time once that limit is reached

    1. You are right that I put more emphasis on the DPS doing well but that is because I am a DPS. A tank would do the same with other tanks and a healer will do the same with other healers. It is the nature of the beast.

      However, I do not agree I am doing it with a double standard like you say.

      I did not say that tanks or healers shouldn't do better. I did say damage dealers should.

      If a tank doesn't even try, he will not be able to hold aggro and get kicked.

      If a healer doesn't even try, he will not keep people alive and get kicked.

      If a damage dealer doesn't even try, as long as the others are okay, people let it slide.

      That is what I am talking about. That is a double standard. People that don't even try, tanks, healers or damage dealers, should be removed.

      Personally I don't see what any one would ever play a game and not even try to do well, but look around and you will see most players are like that.

      As for your example of all doing 9K and downing the boss, would that be okay. Nope, not okay. They did "fine", they got the job done. They did not do "good". There is a huge difference between fine and good. Fine is for people that don't care, if you don't care, don't play.

      Again, why play a game if you are not even going to try.

      Let me pick this one apart for a second.

      "Also, DPS can only DPS so much, there is a mathematical limit to how much each and every class can put out. So no, they can’t keep getting better all of the time once that limit is reached"

      Can you name one person that can reach that mathematical limit? Nope, you can not. Because it is amazingly hard. It requires not only amazing skill and timing but a computer connection that is fantastic and you will still never get there. So yes, there is a limit, but no, you will never reach it. So you can always do better. The only people that say I can't do better are people that don't want to try to do better and they are willing to setting for fine and sorry, but fine is for a single player game. In a multiplayer game you have to do better than fine.

  2. A lot of people don't like confrontation I think. I certainly don't. This is a game and I want to have fun and I don't want to invite trouble in a random. Plus you have to inspect people's gear before you can judge them on dps as I've done HoT's with people barely scraping the ilevel requirement. If you balance the gear against the dps most of the time it doesn't look as bad as it is. However, some people skip that intermediate step. I once saw the rest of the group kick this dps because they were doing 12k in a HoT and that was awful. However, given their gear it was a good effort in my opinion. As they were a guildie that group lost their tank with that kick, which is something else to consider. You kick a dps who's queued with a tank/healer and you lose the tank/healer.

    With the gear reset that blizz has put in with HoT's most freshly dinged 85's grab a couple of rep pieces, pieces off the AH, the valor boots and bracers and go straight to HoTs. So sometimes people's damage looks bad in a HoT but they're freshly dinged and they need the gear. I know that people shouldn't skip like that but I've done it when gearing up my sixth character. I think everyone does it to a certain extent. That doesn't make it right but a couple of dungeons and you're usually a lot better off. With the quest rewards as well from completing each dungeon the first time the bad gear doesn't last long. I know it's not fair to expect a group to put up with that which is why it's better to go in a full guild group, sometimes only a partial one is possible though.

    Anyway, basically I think you're an idealist. You put your best effort in and expect everyone else to do the same. I wish that everyone did as I think the game, the community and everything would be so much nicer for it. However, most people aren't willing to do that. I don't understand it myself because what do they get out of it if they don't care? they don't put in the effort? You know why do they bother playing if they expect so little from themselves?

    That's random's for you. In guild groups for raids it's a little different. I approach it from the perspective that everyone is doing their best. However, if I do see someone doing a lot less than I would expect I'll have a quiet word and see what's wrong. Like with the new warlock I just recruited. He's never raided before, it's his first max level character and everything is new to him. He does quite low dps but it's improving all the time, as he gets better gear, as he understands his rotation better. I help him with finding resources and he comes back with questions which show he's looked at what I've given him. I'll never get at him for low dps, or at least not for some time. You have to give people a chance to learn.

    TLDR: I won't kick in randoms as I don't like confrontation. I also won't yell at my guildies for doing their best whatever their output is. I'll help them help themselves improve if I can but if what they manage is all they can manage then I accept it. We kill things as a group and that's enough for me.

    1. I don't kick in randoms either. I've said that here a million times. I am part of the problem. I just want to get in, get it done, and get out. I complain here. I am like you said, I do not want the confrontation.

      If someone asks for help I will help them. If someone asks for the boss to be explained I will explain it. Outside of that you will never get anything more than a hello at the start and a thanks for the run at the end. I am not a talker, even more so in a random.

      Doesn't mean I don't believe that people in randoms shouldn't be removed for doing badly. Not half bad, but all bad. The new rogue only doing 8K when he should do more, is he trying, no problem. The new healer that needs to drink after every pull but is trying, no problem. The tank that asks everyone to wait 5 seconds before attacking because he is new, no problem.

      I have nothing against playing not doing well, we all need to learn. I have something against people that don't even try.

      With your definition of Idealist I would have to say yes, that is me. I might never be great, surely not on alts, but I always try to do as well as I can and I believe everyone else should as well.

      Am I really wrong for thinking that? I think not. As you said, the game would be a better place if everyone was like that.

  3. Maybe because a bad tank or healer you notice right away. They hinder you. They NEED to be good. While a dps doesn't hinder you with low dps (assuming he does mechanics right). You have to go look at Recount or similar to judge their performance if they're doing the mechanics right. That's just it - with dps you have numbers looming over you and are easily judged but it's still not the same pressure put on the tank. You're just not as visible. In a complete random I will probably never care to check recount. Unless I want to see my own dps and notice yours.

    Truth be told I don't know how much someone should output on each boss / mob / trash pack. I don't know if having one 50k dps destroying things impacts the dps of the other dpses in the party and so on. The only mark I have is me. And I'll only judge on bosses since I know on multiple mobs my dps skyrockets. Is the dps guy above me? Then all's good. Below me? Meh, bad, but hey I can't complain if things go down. Why? Because I don't know the dps guy.
    > They could be new to the game. And not know about hit or expertise. Yes, even at lvl 85 they may have stepped into a dungeon only a few times... /shrug Or have bad reforging
    > They could be lacking gear - I can't usually be bothered to check them out. I myself am usually fast overgearing them randoms so even then I can't expect someone in crap gear to beat my tank dps. And as such, they're probably faking their iLvl anyway. Or they got flipped in there by iLvl of their main spec and really shouldn't be in a hot with a dps iLvl of 339.
    > They could have problems, like my ex-Gm - she could only play with one hand so I could only ask for so much from her. She was half the dps of everyone else on movement fights.
    > Maybe it's just someone testing out rotation and new abilities or they just recently chose a dps spec.

    For each person that does a low dps - should I just berate them they're not doing more than I? Should I ask them why?

    See.. the thing is, I don't know these people. I can't judge them. And they don't hinder me. Their role is not as important and usually one decent dps is enough cause I can make up the rest. But if a healer doesn't heal me for a minute straight and I have to sweat keeping myself up alone through constant damage, then I just may kick the healer.
    > if he's new he shouldn't really pick this role that has so much responsibility and he shouldn't step in unless he's at least willing to throw me a heal every 15 seconds...
    > If he's lacking gear seriously and can't keep me up even when I'm outgearing the instance by 30 iLvls then please leave and spend a couple more hours gearing up
    > If they have disabilities and can't do this role then they really shouldn't because it causes problems.
    So all in all I don't care what their reason is, they're hindering me and the group. Probably the same with the tank. Dps with bad dps hinder in very rare situation.

    So double standard? Maybe. Because of the repsonsability.
    > You can't afford to do bad when you're the only tank. Even if there's two, there's probably very ditinct jobs and can't cover for eachother.
    > You can't afford to do bad when you're the only healer. You can afford to slip up a bit maybe when you're one of 5 healers because someone else will probably cover for you.
    > You can afford to be bad as a dps because teh chance that someone will cover for you is very high. Dungeons have low dps requirements and the chance that all 3 dpses will be dead bottom is very very slim.

    1. And such, here's a little story. Only once did I initiate a dps kick mysaelf for low dps. And I sort of felt bad because the guy asked us not to kick him. It was in ZG, end boss. My awesome retri paladin friend decided he wants to try out holy and we did that (the zulroics were new-ish). He was doing ok as a healer but he didn't have the gear or experience to heal through so many of those shadows. I was trying to help but the dps was severly lacking. After two hours of trying (I kid you not) I had to vote kick the lowest dps, my reason was "Sorry, I want to finish this".

      On my raid, though, I know the peple. We know the dps requirement. We have logs. We compare. They get hell from my raid leader of they're not good enough. I've only seen it once with a trial Shadow Priest. Eevrything went smooth till Spine hc, tendon. It didn't go down (15% nerf). Rl gave him targeting macro and tried it again. Fail. RL asked him if he can learn how to dps. Third try. RL told him he'll never play with us again. He wasn't that bad but he wasn't doing below 1 mill on tendon... I felt reallybad for the guy, I would've hated to be on the receiving end.

      So double standard? Just with randoms. And then how much of it is it my fault and how much of it stands on how the roles are built?

    2. This ^^ I agree with, well apart from the kicking guildies part. However, I think that's because you're more progression orientated than I am, obviously if you're on heroic spine.

      In a random you just don't know what's going on with the other people or what their situation is. Live and let live I guess. So long as it doesn't impact on my gameplay I leave it alone. You just don't know enough to be able to do more than that.

    3. @James

      I might just be different. I would rather run with a new tank or healer, an undergeared tank or healer, and wipe a million times if they are trying their best, asking questions and showing improvement than run with someone who thinks they are good when they are doing badly in any role.

      As for berate them? Never. I do not believe in that and I would not do that. But you could say nicely that they could be doing better for their gear level and that maybe they should give a look.

      Nothing is rude or disrespectful about that. Never ever berate someone for doing badly.

      In a case like that, I would sooner kick you if the vote popped up than I would kick them. I've seen some horrible players that someone ripped on and you know what, I made sure they never got kicked. I do not want people playing badly but there is one thing I hate more than people playing badly and that is people that act badly and insulting someone to their face like that is acting badly. Not saying you do that, just saying that is what my opinion on the berate thing is.

      It is not your fault for the double standard. It is the design fault that makes us do it.

      The design makes us say, who cares if so and so is doing 2K, the other two are doing 50K each. And we let it slide. All of us, me included. It is a design problem.

  4. I find the opposite, actually. I find that tanks and healers are constantly getting the free passes for poor performance. Someone died? They took too much damage. Pulled aggro? Learn to dps, noob! Of course it could never be that the healer dropped the ball, ran out of mana due to improper spell selection, and maybe a tank messed up his/her rotation and wasn't putting out enough threat.

    IMO, there is no single role that is more important than the other. Let a tank and healer try to finish a dungeon without dps and see how they like it. Let dps attempt one with no tanks and healers and good luck to them. Every one needs to perform to the best of their ability and everyone is important.

    It's just, IMO, the tanks and healers have the god complexes and think dps are the peons and the expendables. Someday they'll see themselves for the support classes they truely are and shut up and heal/get smashed in the face for us while us dps do the actual job of killing stuff. :P

    1. Funny how you say that tanks and heals are the support classes you might get some heat over a comment like that, but by design it does seem that way. 90% of the time when raiding the answer to anything is "we need more DPS".

      I rarely see people let a bad tank or bad healer slide. Perhaps it is just what I have encountered.

      All roles serve a purpose and all roles have a minimum requirement. The thing is what we all judge that minimum requirement to be.

      I happen to have a higher personal requirement for damage dealers because I know that they can all do better. I can see it by looking at their gear and the numbers they put out.

      It is harder to look at a healer and say they can do better if everyone lived. It is harder to look at a tank and say they could have done better if they never lost aggro.

      Sure, tanks and healers can do more, but how do you judge that. I am harder on DPS because my main is one and because there is a number that can be easily seen.

      Unless a damage dealer was doing something else, another task like kiting, that number is usually a good indicator of if they are even trying or not and like I said, all I ask is that they try.

    2. Support classes? Ok lets think about this before I explode.

      Can you run a dungeon without a tank? Well until next week I could on my kitty optimised druid go bear and tank quite easily. Oh wait I'm still tanking there. Can you run a dungeon without a tank? Well if you dramatically overgear it and have a good healer then yes. I kept a ret paladin up doing heroic Lich King the other day after the tanks died. That isn't current content though so it doesn't really count.

      Can you run a dungeon without a healer? If you overgear it then possibly. I can solo cata normals easily on my paladin. Occasionally I help guildies run a couple to level so I have no need of a healers services personally. However, there are a lot of aoe attacks on bosses these days so the rest of the group needs one. However, that is overgeared. You could never run one when it's truly current without a healer. In emergencies you can blow all cooldowns, and hope a dps is a hybrid and can pop some sort of heal, and that might finish off a boss. However, you can't do the whole thing without a healer.

      So support classes? No. More like essential part of a holy trinity. Tanks, healers and dps all need one another to complete group content. In fact it's possible that the only member that could be axed is the dps. If there's no enrage timer, and the healers good at managing mana, then the tank could eventually kill it. Dps just make it go faster.

      As for god complexes that is such a stereotype I'm not even going to go there. You could say that the dps have massive egos and are meter whores. Every role has a stereotype and while it's obviously true in some cases, it is far from universal.

    3. @Taitrina ncis

      But many good damage dealers are meter whores. Things are a stereotype for a reason. He was not saying that description fits you, but I agree it does fit the majority. Most tanks think they are gods gift to the world. I don't see it as much with healers, but tanks, absolutely, from my experience.

      Keeping with the DPS idea however I must mention, I hate meter whores. If you ignore the mechanics just to top out the meters you will get a quick tongue lashing from me in one of my raids. While I do value people doing good DPS I have zero tolerance for anyone that puts themselves ahead of the group and I see that with meter whores more than anything else.

      Meter whores are worse in randoms. Because they know there is nothing you can do if they ignore mechanics to top the charts. They are nearly as bad as the god complex tank.

    4. The "support classes" comment was said tongue in cheek...right after I also said that we all need each other and no role is more important than the other. But some people will work themselves up over anything, I suppose, lol.

      I do think though that if you look at it tanks and healers are there to support the dps. The dps do the job of actually downing the boss while the healers heal and the tank keeps the mobs attention. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to say they are support classes. Necessary and important support though!

      My main toons are pure dps but I have healed on every class, LOVE healing on my priest and druid, and I've tanked on a paladin and DK. Tanking can be boring to me at times as I find the rotations are simple and esp now that you that threat is ridiculously easy to keep it's just not very appealing to me. But I have performed all three roles in a raid environment so I can appreciate what each brings to the table. I still prefer, and am admittedly biased towards, the role of dps.

    5. What does support mean anyway?
      Combat support means there's the guys in the front line and then the fire support or other type of assistance in the back. So I guess a tank can't really be support. A healer is support, I guess?

      Now a support class is usually defined by some class who can be useful without engaging in direct combat. So again a tank can't really be support, a healer though...

      But it's all semantics, really. All 3 classes are supporting eachother or so it should be. In a raid it works right. I can't do anything without the healer backing me nor do much without the dpses. In a dungeon though... there's very very few fights that can't be finished just with the tank and healer.

      Now the tank, by design, is the leader figure, that's the meaning of aggro. Why not go for the healer - because if you destroy the leader everyone else will fall. The tank - the general - only one person, with your armies and war machines who will crush the enemy but still, without you there's no fight. You make it possible :)
      I have this romantic image in my head with Sindragosa breathing ice on the one tank, the tank still standing through the chill, through increased magical damage, still protecting his men, who are able to keep hitting her because of him. As the only tank, he depends on the dpses and the healers, he hopes the dpses will kill it in time, before he dies, he hopes the healers will heal his wounds every time. One dps falls. Keep going, we can still do this! A healer falls. Focus, men, we can still do this! So many stacks, chilling to the bone. The tank falls, can we kill her still, so little health left? No... it's over...
      Or if yo want a happy end, the warlock souls stoned him and he comes back to life. Final push and she's down. Point? It's cute to think the tank is there to support dpses because they're actually killing it. But it's really not the right term. Support implies helping you here and there do your job, which isn't really what a tank is doing.

    6. @Sesamee

      I was figuring you meant it as that, which is why I said so. But the concept is solid. The damage dealers job is to kill the mob and the healers and tanks are there to make sure they can do it. But like you said, all three parts are needed.

      About the raid tanking. Raid tanking is much easier than 5 man tanking. They are not even the same thing for various reason and the most glaring is random people. The randoms you get in a 5 man makes tanking hard. The actual job of tanking is easy, but doing it with randoms is hard. The people add difficulty to the role.

      Also raids are designed tighter I believe which is why raid tanking is easier. Less can go wrong if you do it right. I've seen some weird wipes in 5 mans where no one did anything wrong but unless RNG gets you in a raid if everyone does it right there are no wipes.


      A case can be made for each class being a support class to the others.

      A tank is being supported by people doing damage and someone healing them while they fight face to face.

      A healer is supported by the tank keeping its attention and the damage dealers whittling away its health why they keep people alive.

      A damage dealer is supported by the tank keeping its attention and the healer keeping them all alive while they down it.

      See, easy enough to make a case for all three. However, logically speaking only, the damage dealer as lead one is the only one that makes sense if you asked the outsider looking in.

      The tank and healer are helping the damage dealer directly where as in the other cases the damage dealer is helping them indirectly.

  5. @James, TheGrumpyElf

    I like WoW except for the jerks.
    I save my vote kick for jerks.

    If I use a kick every time someone is fail, I won't have it when I really need it.

    If I can't kick or if there is more than one jerk, I am not above dropping group.


    As far as god-complex tanks go, IMO that's a response to the jerks that tanks have to put up with (especially if they leveled through 5-mans as a tank). After a while they develop thick skin and learn to seize the initiative.

    On the other hand, I agree that tanks and healers get a free pass sometimes. I've been guilty of this. I won't kick a really bad tank (especially if they are trying) depending on the LFD wait times to replace them.

    1. I don't kick either, I am just saying they should be. I too save mine for the time it is needed and as bad as I have seen some people I have rarely ever seen a reason it was needed. Usually I just leave group if it is that bad.

  6. I don't think I have double standards - in LFD I never kick anyone for being bad at the game. It's not their fault for being there, it's often enough not even their fault for being bad.

    It's Blizz fault for removing most options to train them, it's Blizz's fault for removing all barriers and it's my fault for still liking the game enough to put up with it.
    I save my kicks for anti social behaviour.

    And it's completely different in a guild run pushing for new content - then it does not matter if DPS, Tank or Heal. If they continue to fail despite all help, if they are holding back progress, than removing them is the only (and painful) option.
    The trick comes how to decide if someone is failing. With DPS that's easy - but healers and tanks are a different matter.

    Completely different in a 5 man setting (or in LFR) - if you go there as Tank/Healer, and you can not perform to a minimum - you will notice it YOURSELF. And no one likes to fail, so either you will get better or go back queing as DPS. We all know the queue times. And that leads to the impression Tanks/Healers are more important (or valuable) and you start treating them differently.

    For a good run everyone needs to perform. Problem is - is there any content that REQUIRES a good group in the way Heroic Shattered Halls did? Or Heroic Magister's Terrace? So why get aggravated about it if a DPS fails?

    Rauxis, chosen of CAT

    1. You nailed it. It is easy to pin failure on DPS because there is a number. Sure there are tanking numbers and healing numbers but those are more about the "feel". A healer does not need big numbers to keep everyone up, but if they are not keeping everyone up even if they have huge numbers it does not matter. So they can not be judged on numbers. Same for a tank unless it is a rare fight where even the tanks DPS matters. You judge that by if the DPS can go all out or not and have no aggro issues and if they are using their defensive cooldowns. Being threat is a non-issue now, that means they have cooldown rotation and you can't see that through recount.

      For a good run everyone needs to be good.

      I do not get aggravated by it, I just wonder why people don't seem to care.

      If I play a game I try to play it well, or at least correctly. Why are so many people okay with everyone doing it wrong?

      Who plays a game and doesn't play it correctly? DPS it seems.

  7. I completely agree with you that good DPS is much rarer in this game than good tanking or good healing. I am playing all three roles, just in case, so this isn't role bias.

    Similarly to you, I am sick and tired of finding 8k-9k DPS people literally in every random group.

    That said, this was going on for such a long time already that I no longer care. I passed some kind of a threshold on that at least a year ago. In a non-random group, I mostly ignore DPS meters, because everyone is pulling their weight. When they don't, I and others will help with friendly advice, etc, but this happens rarely. In a random group, I ignore DPS meters, because it is hard not to cry if you look on them, and because no matter what you do, bad DPS will still be there, every time you are in a random group.

    It is really sad, but I just don't see half of the people in random groups improving on their horrible (HORRIBLE, F*** HORRIBLE, YOU HEAR ME, YOU STUPID 9K M***S! ... sorry for that) DPS anytime soon. Thus, I no longer care.

    1. Perhaps I will get there at some point where I do not care. In a way I am there already, I have carried those 3K warriors and 4K warlocks enough to not care, but I don't think I will ever go without bitching about it here.

      I'll go back to what I always say. Why play a game if you are not going to even try?

      What type of person has fun playing a game they do not even have the desire to try at? I can't understand that.