Sunday, June 24, 2012

Do People Really Think This is What Acceptable is?

Before I start I must warn you this might come off sounding a little harsh and I know that the people this is aimed at will never read this.  That is because if these people where the type that actually read anything about the game they would not be that bad.

Out of complete and total boredom I decided to do some dungeons this weekend on some of my more geared characters.  They don't need valor or anything from any of them but I figured it would be a fun way to pass some time.  I was wrong.

I ran into people doing 2K DPS, tanks that could get one shot by hogger and healers that apparently thought their job was to heal themselves and no one else.

Do people really think this is what acceptable is?

Is it acceptable for a damage dealer, even at a 329 item level to do only 2K DPS?  Even if you were in all player vs player gear 2K DPS would not be acceptable.  One group I was in the tank said something to the person doing that low and their answer was "I am doing very well for the gear I have".

Doing very well?  A healer doing 2K DPS is doing very well in the DPS department being it is not their responsibility to deal damage, not an arcane mage.  When it is your responsibility to deal damage the words very well and 2K DPS are on different sides of the universe and should never be used together.  No, I am not being a elitist saying this, I am just stating fact.

At the absolute worst, a 329 item level, no gems, no enchants, and limited knowledge of your class I would say 5K or 6K should be the lowest you ever do.  With some knowledge of your class 7K or 8K under those 329, no gems and no enchant circumstances would be reasonable and for some classes, it might even be doing very well.

I decided to do what I normally do and keep my mouth shut.  The dungeon was going fine.  We had one damage dealer doing 20K and the other damage dealer doing 8K along with the tank doing 8K so that one person doing 2K was not really hurting us.  As I was healing and having no issue, I was not worried.  But it was interesting to see what would transpire here with this conversation between the tank and the damage dealer that was, in his own words, doing very well.

The tank started in nice enough and asked the mage when they started playing.  Oddly enough they said they started playing in BC.  The tank followed up by asking if he was new to this class and the mage responded that this is his main character, the one he has been playing since BC.

This is when the tank started to get a little more into it.  He asked, if 2K is doing very well in cataclysm what did he do in BC and wrath.  No response.  He said.  I thought so.

We pulled a few more packs and he did not get any better and the tank asked, how hard is it to hit one button over and over.  The mage said, shut up, you do not play a mage and you do not understand what is involved, I am doing very well with my gear.

I inspected him and saw something that amazed me.  He had a 342 item level, some of his items were even enchanted and he had all his gem slots filled.  Now I was sure he was trolling the group.  Doing bad on purpose.

Either way that still means the question is the same.

Do people really think this is what acceptable is?

Is it acceptable to come in and troll people or acceptable to come in and be that bad.  Same question no matter what his reasons for doing badly were.

Another run as a healer I got well of eternity and the first mob in there seemed to last a year and a day.  When the fight was over I had done 28K HPS.  What would have happened if I where not a raid geared healer.  There is no healer in the game that could have saved them in level appropriate gear.  If you were in 353 gear, even fully gemmed and enchanted, that would have been a wipe.

Is it acceptable to put that type of pressure on the healer?

Another healing one in stonecore we would have wiped every single pull if it where not for me being a raid geared healer and I started to think this is the reason there are no new healers in the game.  There would be wipe after wipe and the healer would be blamed for each wipe for not keeping people alive.

When everyone is attacking different things, none doing more than 6K DPS, the tank is barely of item level to begin with and most of that gear is DPS gear and no one is even considering interrupting the guy that turns into that spinning thing a non raid geared healer would have never been able to handle it even if they where the most skilled healer in the world.

It is wrong, completely, 100%, totally and unequivocally wrong for people to go into a dungeon and do that badly either because they can not do better or are not willing to do better and expect someone else to pick up the slack for them.

Do people really think that is what acceptable is?


  1. It is acceptable in a game that provides zero in-game feedback as to how much DPS a character is doing, how much they should be doing, and whose design is that a healer running OOM is supposed to be the signal that the DPS failed.

    Personally, yes, I absolutely agree that that level of DPS is atrocious. The mage could have equipped the Ruthless Glad wand for 700 Honor and wanded his way to 1051.4 DPS while otherwise naked.

    But I ask myself, how is that mage supposed to know? Download 3rd-party mods? Read the forums? Clearly he has no friends who are willing to take him aside and teach him what rotation he should be using. And the game itself teaches nothing.

    But, yeah... yikes. 2k DPS was laughable in Wrath, let alone Cata.

    1. The game design for people that do no go out of their way to get better is horrible. People that look outside for information will always be better. It is sad that people go through the game like that mage thinking they are doing just fine.

  2. I agree, there is a HUGE issue with wow (and MMOs in general, really) where the game is so easy to play solo that people think it's fine to do the same in group content and there's NOTHING in-game to tell you otherwise. DPS that figure if they're hitting the same buttons they do while soloing they're doing their job, tanks that think that as long as they hold aggro (irregardless of mitigation and cooldowns) they're fine, healers that think that they only need to heal the tank. I started in BC just like this mage, and it only ever occured to me to look outside the game for basic class information after multiple different groups told me how badly I was doing. I was doing just fine solo and it very literally never occured to me that I SHOULD look outside of game for how to play in-game.

    I often say a 15 minute google search taught me more about how to play WoW than the 21 days of /played it took me to get to 70.

    1. This is so very true. The game does not teach anything. Even when leveling took longer and was somewhat harder it only taught you some things like how not to pull too many and how to kite or interrupt. So while it was better when it took longer it still taught nothing about rotation or maximizing what you can do.

      Well said and very true.

      You will learn more searching on google for 15 minutes than you ever will in game.

      That is something blizzard needs to address more. A game should not require you to look for outside resources to play it.

  3. Grumpy, Kurnmogh had a very good post about this just the other day, about how she thinks Blizzard really needs to implement some kind of OFFICIAL tutorial/guides etc. to teach players how to play. Because though we know there's countless blogs/EJ/forums/etc, many players don't, and if it's not on the official site or in-game they will never see them. I'd recommend checking it out -

    1. I think his mage was my mage. lol

      Actually my mage was not as well geared but I can give my mage some credit over his. At least he had no gear on it that had spirit or... ~shutters~... agility.

      That was a good read, thanks for linking it.

    2. Having just leveled an arcane mage I'll go and defend at least the spirit pieces. The agi etc pieces I have no excuse for, and I'd most assume they're there for gaming the ilvl requirements of lfd.

      I remember using that same helm myself for a few dungeons since it was a clear upgrade over the pvp one I had before it. At least it has a meta and you can reforge the spirit.

      None of this ofc gives an excuse to do lousy dps, with mostly pvp gear to game the ilvl requirements you should still get to 15k+.

      Just saying taht getting all the "correct" gear can sometimes take weeks depending on luck and playtime.

  4. Back in Vanilla how did you know you were doing good DPS? The bosses died. You didnt have meters, or many other addons you have now.

    If the bosses died why would you feel your DPS was lacking or needed improvment. Maybe this is where he is coming from, he doesnt have any addons, and all the times he has gone into a dungeon, bosses have died and it gets cleared.

    He also probably runs with people like you who dont help him, just logged onto there blog to complain about someone doing 2k DPS. Instead of Shooting him to a Mage blog/WoW forums some other site to help him improve. You are part of the problem.

    1. I would have helped if he wanted help. He was doing just fine, even said so himself.

      I go out of my way to help people that want help but I've learned in my many year of real life and gaming that it is impossible to teach someone that does not want to learn.

      If you run into him and want to talk yourself blue in the face and have him tell you to shut up because you do not know how to play a mage and he does, have at it. I won't waste my time.

      If he said, I'm not sure what I am doing wrong, I am trying my best THEN I would have spent a hour with him if that is what was needed and he was willing to learn. I would have even queued up for more dungeons with him to help him along the way and to help him get the faster queue.

      I never have and never will turn away someone willing to learn. If you read my blog you will know that I am always there to help people and defend the people others attack that do not deserve it because they try.

      Don't make assumptions, you know what the saying is when you assume.

  5. I couldn't agree with you more. I don't even use the dungeon finder anymore, and my healer main is the last character I'd consider taking in there.

    1. Oddly enough my healer is the one it bothers me least to do it with.

      I can not stand tanking for people that all attack different targets or attacking before I even get to things.

      I can not stand doing damage and seeing that I am doing more than 50% of the over all damage even on characters I suck on, but damage dealing is still leaps and bound better than tanking randoms.

      As for my healer, I feel like I am in control 100% of the time. I can usually set the pace for the group and people seem genuinely more accepting of a healer helping them than they are when a tank or damage dealer says something.

      If someone says they do not know the fight and a healer explains it they will usually say thank you but if any other role explains it they seem to have that, whatever, attitude about it.

      That is just from my personal experience of course and I do get just as frustrated and sometimes more so when people do not move from bad but of the three rolls, at this point in the expansion, being an over geared healer is the best of the three to run randoms with.

      I would never, repeat, never bring a newly geared healer into the randoms now however. Even knowing how to play one I believe 90% of the dungeons I have healed on a gear healer I would have failed horribly at if I was lesser geared.

      I feel bad for anyone trying to learn to heal with the outrageously bad players in randoms now.

  6. Bit divided on this.

    On the one hand, as long as stuff dies, the group doesn't, and people are generally pleasant enough, I do not really care where exactly the damage comes from, though I am the first to admit that's mostly because I do not Raid and one of the reasons why I do not Raid.

    On the other hand, I'm a big supporter of ''You Yank It, You Tank It'' , and both the changes to Threat and the fact that, due to several factors, Tanks have been made +/- obsolete for the content I used to like (ie Vanilla Dungeons) have made me stop Tanking early Cata.

    (random thought: I'm still not sure how it was possible to - repeatedly - grab Threat with my 64 -dw, purely PvE - Surv Twink from a 85 Tankadin. Nicest thing to say is that as far as dealing damage goes, I might be doing something right)

    1. I've always said it as a joke... No matter how good the tank is I bet I can grab aggro within a few seconds of the pull on my hunter.

      Hunters have insane arrgo generation and that is why they have the absolute best aggro management tools in the game. It is the balance in the game and that, in part, is what I love about it.

      As for the topic.

      I too am torn when just put down to the basic concept. Did the boss die? Did everyone else live? Then all is fine.

      I agree with that 100%.

      But that does not change the question. Do people really think it is acceptable to play like that?

      Just because the boss is dead and no one died it is still not right to enter a group and let everyone do all the work for you. Sorry, not acceptable at all.

      Perhaps it is just that I have a great deal more self respect. I would never put myself with random people and expect them to carry me. It is wrong.

    2. Yes and no.

      The root cause is that the way the endgame is currently designed - Frosties/Valor for first Patch Heroics etc. - the designers expect more geared people to help lesser geared people clear content to get their badge gear.

      When they then created the LFD tool, this process was extended to helping/carrying strangers.

      Now, as long as people are trying their best and are otherwise agreeable, I don't mind carrying or being carried, as that's basically the design of the game, and (I know this is a very '8%' thing to say) I don't really expect the current endgame to be enjoyable and anything but a pointgrind in the first place, so as long as the points come flowing smoothly and people aren't too much of a bother I'm not overly concerned with these things (though, again, I realize that with Raids it would be of higher importance).

      [ Do note I always Gem my gear, if only for the Socket Bonus, and it will be no surprise I tend to Enchant my Gear as well (I readily admit one of the reasons I mainly play DK's at cap is because of their free Weapon chant, the less money wasted at Tier Resets, the better) ]

    3. The key in something you said there was the "if people are trying their best".

      I know a fair deal of different types of players from overly kind to overly harsh and they all say the same thing when they see someone doing badly... at least they are trying.

      That is the key and that is wherein the problem lies. Many people just do not try. Simple as that.

      As someone mentioned here, that mage could have pulled over 1K DPS just using a wand and being completely naked otherwise. So 2K means they are not even trying.

      That is the type of person that sours the entire community because we are all human and human nature will make sure we never forget that one mage while the 47 other mages we saw before them were fine.

  7. Are you sure there wasn’t something wrong with the mod? 2k honestly seems impossibly low for a one-button spec… An Arcane mage could only have cast Arcane Blast about four times in a two-minute encounter for that to have happened, and I’d even be sceptical about that.

    On topic, though, I deal with this differently while doing the Hour of Twilight dungeons. There are three bosses in each so I’ll judge the damage on the first boss, request an increase for the second if it’s abnormally poor, and kick for the third if no increase appears (encounter specifics considered, of course). I have a macro for every DPS spec in the game that highlights the absolute bare bones of how said spec constructs its damage, so I’ll whisper that to the offender and hope to see the requested changes. Each macro consists of an absolute maximum of four buttons in order to keep things simple.

    It sounds rough to kick people who are otherwise contributing to a clear, but I’m not helping new or inexperienced players by ignoring them; also, I tend to find that most people react well when whispered and are honestly appreciative of any advice.

    Deliberately bad players or trolls can go fuck themselves.

    1. I'd guess you get a lot of F U type whispers back. From my experience most people seem to think they know what they are doing and do not take kindly to people that try to help them.

      The few people that do take kindly to help are usually the ones that will freely admit they are learning the class or not very good at it. They actively look for advice. I like those people and love to help them.

      As for the mage, I think he was doing badly on purpose.