Friday, September 26, 2014

Will You Run Dungeons in Warlords?

We have been hearing a lot about the warlords gearing pyramid and that dungeons would become a basic part of the gearing system in warlords but I worry for the lasting success, or even usefulness of dungeons, for many reasons.

First think of why you run dungeons.  I'll gladly share why I do.  I run them as a starting gearing measure on my main thanks to the LFG dungeon queue.  I hit max level, usually one of the first on my server, so it is not likely there is anyone to run them with.  So I use the LFG dungeon queue to get a group.

I learn the dungeons usually during this time (plus my beta experience) so as guild mates hit max level I can help them and explain what is going on.  I do this not because I am a nice person, but because it makes their lives easier which in turn makes my life easier.  Call me selfish if you must but someone usually has to teach others, might as well be me being I was there first.  Selfish would be those people that call people out for not knowing how to do things but refusing to tell them how.  Well, maybe if you told them and didn't keep it to yourself than they would not mess up.  Sorry, that was a little side tangent there, but that always does come up in new dungeons.

I then run them to knock out the achievements but I am never in a rush for them.  I got most of this expansions solo toward the end of ToT when I was a little bored.  I went in on heroic and did the achievements myself.  I never use the LFG system to get achievements.  Any I get when doing them in a random is pure gravy.

Then as the expansion goes on I might pop in there for some valor, some justice to convert to honor or to buy heirlooms with, and maybe to get some gear on newly or under geared alts when a guild group is going.  Also as an added plus in mists there was the addition of reputations you could get and some alts got their reputations up completely just doing one dungeon (and one scenario) a day.

Looking back on how I use dungeons as a tool to play with in the game I can't help but think they are going to be basically worthless in warlords.  Don't get me wrong, they will or could still be a stepping stone for many, but over all there will be little to no repeatability with them and that has me worried not only for the dungeons and their usage, but for the future of the game if this is the design they choose to go with.

Let me explain why I think dungeons will serve no purpose at all in warlords unless they change something.  And yes, there is still time to change something.  One positive is that there can be warforged loot in dungeons, but that is not really all that great of news, as you will see, because the warforged loot would still be greatly lower than LFR gear.

1) Sub Par Gear:

On my main I will surely run dungeons on day one.  There is no doubt about that.  Getting that gear will basically be the only way to get gear on day one so, as always, I will do whatever it is within my power to get the best gear I can get outside of guild to better prepare myself for the guild runs when they do start.

With that said however the gear that comes from dungeons is sub par at best.  If you can manage to round yourself up 3 crafted pieces and finish up all the quests in nagrand you can probably just enter LFR when it comes out and get better gear than dungeons.  Being LFR is insanely easier than dungeons that does seem like a compelling reason to just wait for the LFR if you can already meet the item level requirements to enter it.

Yes, you heard that right.  As much as blizzard says you do not need to do LFR when push comes to shove and you only have time for one thing which one are you going to choose, the one that drops lesser gear or the one that drops better gear?  You will choose LFR.  So yes, you still need to do LFR people.  Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but blizzard lied to you.

Sure you can do dungeons and go straight to normal raids in dungeon gear but that requires three things.  1) That you are a really skilled player that can pull off doing the numbers needed for normal while only in dungeon gear.  2) Someone willing to take you if you are only in lower, possibly much lower, item level dungeon gear.  3) You need to be ready to raid before the LFR comes out.  Because lets face it, dungeon gear will be great gear until LFR comes out, but once LFR comes out dungeon gear moves to the back burner because there is better gear out there.

All in all, there are no decent gearing options in dungeons.  You might run specific ones for a specific drops but you might not if it is only one or two pieces and you are already downing raid bosses at a decent pace.  So the gear in dungeons is a major issue.  Lets not forget that much better gear will drop from much easier content.  Just think about that for a second.  Better gear and easier content vs worse gear and harder content.  No contest.

2) Difficulty:

Sometimes blizzard learns from their mistakes.  Sometimes they don't.  This is a case of they don't.  The idea of making heroic dungeons harder is admirable.  I will admit that.  But the bottom line is that anything you allow random people to group together for with the in game finder will be destine for failure when you add any degree of difficulty to it, even if that is only minimal difficulty.  How could blizzard have not learned that by now?

Hasn't blizzard learned anything from cataclysm and over 2M lost subscribers thanks to difficult dungeons?  It sure as hell does not seem so.  While mechanics wise nothing in any of the ones I have done seem all that difficult, I can say, without a doubt, that I am the only person to ever have lived through a dungeon and not died once on a beta.

Not saying I never died.  I died plenty. But I have never met anyone in any of the dungeons I have done on beta that lived through the entire run, besides me.  I know, beta is beta, but still, if a group of people that are going there with the intention of testing and learning, working together and sharing strategies before the pull, all with hellscreams downfall titles, and some idea how to play their classes, can not get through dungeons without dying, how are your random people doing to do this?  Seriously.

Blizzard decided that to random for the dungeons you would need to get a proving grounds silver.  Again, an admirable idea with the best intentions, but this has to be the worst idea ever.  I managed a silver on my rogue the very first time I tried it and I suck at my rogue.  I would not even bring myself into a dungeon and inflict myself on others as bad as I am.  I also have failed silver on my priest the first time I tried it.  Failed.  I heal heroic raids just fine, not great in any sense so don't get me wrong, but I am capable.  So my priest whom I am okay at would not be capable of queuing up for a dungeon but my rogue which could not fight his way out of a paper bag could?  What is wrong with this picture?

You want a better gate to using the LFR system for heroic dungeons I got one for you blizzard.  To queue for a heroic dungeon you need to have deadly boss mods downloaded, updated and active.  If it is not downloaded, updated and active, you may not use the random group finder for heroic dungeons.  I think that would help the quality of game play in dungeons a hell of a lot more than a proving grounds silver which, as it turns out, proves absolutely nothing about a players ability to play.

3) Incentive:

Everything, even more so lower content, needs to have an incentive to do it.  I mentioned the early characters will have the gear incentive, but once LFR comes out and crafted gear becomes more available that will decrease a great deal if not completely.

But what about other incentives?  Exactly, what about them, there are none.  In mists we could run dungeons for reputation.  No need to do that, you can not get reputation that way.  We used to be able to run dungeons for valor so we could buy gear, or upgrades to gear.  No need for that, there is no valor which means not valor upgrade or valor gear.  We used to be able to run dungeons for justice that we could buy older gear with, heirlooms with and convert to honor so if we wanted to test the waters in PvP we could get starter gear.  No need for that, justice is being removed so all the things justice were good for are gone as well and so is that incentive to run them.

I am finding it very hard to think of any reason to run the dungeons other than to get the achievements from them, which if I do them like I did this expansion, I can go back and solo them all later when I am bored.  Or create a guild group for them, but not use the random system for them.

4) Wait Time?

I put this one with a question mark because no one can tell the future, but I really worry about the wait time for these dungeons after the first month or two when even the slower levelers have all manged to pass them on the gear scale.  With sub par gear, more difficulty, and no real incentive to do them, why would any geared player ever do them?  Why would any skilled player ever do them, even more so if they can get much better in LFR or normal if they are that skilled?

So if no geared player would do them and no skilled player would do them what exactly are you left with?  You are left with really really under geared people (which are the people that actually should be there) and people that might very well be on characters that they are not very good with, like me on my alts and many lesser players.

So you are left with poorly geared poor players in slightly more difficult content.  How well do you think that is going to go?  Be honest, I already know the answer.  Not to mention, with no incentive to do it less people will queue for it and with the sliver proving grounds requirements less people will queue for it, so this in turn means longer wait times.

I really worry about the future of dungeons in warcraft because they have no future as they stand now in their current state offering a piss poor gearing option with a higher difficulty level than those that would need that piss poor gear can probably handle and no incentive and quite possibly a long wait time for them.

Now, what post would be complete from the grumpy one without offering my idea for a solution.  Get ready to shoot this one down because I know there are going to be faults with it but I believe it can both bring life to dungeons and make them more what they should be, the back bone for the beginning of the gearing process and a viable option to do not only to pass the time but maybe gear up slowly.

The Solution:

Give all players, not just tanks and healers, a baggie for completing the dungeons.  Tanks and healers would of course get their additional bribe bag.  Have this reward (as in baggie here) offered all the time.  Not once per day like in BC, wrath and mists, and not 7 per week no matter when you do them like in cataclysm, but each and every dungeon completed.

When you complete a dungeon you get 100 apexis crystals and a baggie.  The baggie would contain one of the follow guaranteed, one sorcerous air, one sorcerous fire, one sorcerous water or one sorcerous earth, which are crafting materials that are slightly harder to come by and needed in massive quantities by professions.  They could even give it a slight chance to contain two just to mix it up, like 30%.

But that is not where it ends, that is not enough.  You would also have a chance to get a extra bonus roll coin which would be a very small chance and not count toward your 3 per week total.  Added to that you would have a small chance to get a item for your current spec selection when you open the bag that will always be, even in later patches, equal to the current raid tiers top LFR pieces.  In this case, it would start at 650 items.

Oh, and I really would like that must have deadly boss mods (or an accepted equivalent) downloaded, updated and installed part.  So much better than I like the proving grounds idea.

Now, the solution might not have cured much of anything but it did add incentive.  It made the content repeatable.  If there are two things this expansion needs, and dungeons more so, is incentive to do them and a reason to repeat them.  Giving people a way to get apexis crystals, gear, crafting items, extra raid rolls, and other junk would most definitely give people an incentive to continue to run it.  And when those knowledgeable people with better gear and more skill are around when those people with lesser gear and lesser skill get into a group it will not be the nightmare it would be without them.

You know what I love about dungeons in mists now?  The fact I can solo them.  I love being able to go in there, even more so with two or three guild mates, and just burn through the thing for fun.  You see, I want my scheduled content to be challenging, like raiding, and I want my time sink just for fun stuff to be fun, like dungeons.  I might be different from everyone else but it would not surprise me if a fair deal of people agreed with me on that one.

So with nothing really to offer in warlords (as it stands) will you be running dungeons or just skipping them like I will most likely do on every single character past my first because there is really no incentive to do them?


  1. People will run dungeons for awhile simply because they can be run multiple times with chances for loot to drop. Sure in LFR the loot is better and the content is easier... but you can only do each available wing once a week and actually get loot.

    LFD and LFR are both "solo" content methods of getting gear. So at least for the first few months of WoD people will run LFR early in the week whenever they have time. Then after that (assuming there are still upgrades for them) they will run dungeons to try and polish off the holes in their gear.

    Players will stop running dungeons when there are no more upgrades to be had from them. LFR will expedite this process, definitely. But simply due to the fact that running dungeons for loot is a repeatable task people will still do them.

    If blizzard continues to add more dungeons with each tier that has loot upgrades then people will do those too. Especially non-raiders that don't raid beyond LFR.

    1. The repeated uses of dungeons for gear is about the only thing it has going for it as I see it. I believe to make it more worthwhile there would need to be something else however. As I mentioned, if ONLY people that need gear run them, they are not going to be fun at all and people will quit playing when things are not fun. See cataclysm heroics.

  2. I definitely agree. I'm done getting gear from dungeons in the first week of the expansion (or the first week after hitting max level on an alt). If there is nothing else to get from them, I don't run them.

    Throughput MoP (especially the last 6 months or so), I didn't run dungeons very much because I was usually valor capped with nothing to spend my valor on. If I needed valor or jp for an heirloom, I'd run them and scenarios. Of course, I could probably solo them just like Grumpy, but I haven't bothered. I'll go back and do the achievements at some point (solo, if possible). But in general I didn't run them much.

    In WoD, there will be no reason to run them after I've exceeded the LFR entry iLvL.

    1. There is one achievement you will need 5 people for, the schools out one, because it will only port any one person once and you need to kill 50 adds and there are 10 per room. So you need 5 people ported to get all 50 adds. Otherwise the reason can be soloed I am sure. Can't think of any that would be a problem.

      One note when doing schools out. Do not have a monk in the group. Monks will auto attack back when they are hit, the only class which dos so, and they might kill and add. As you need to kill 50 and there are none to spare this will ruin the achievement.

      Odd, a post about dungeons and I turned it into an achievement conversation. lol

  3. Ok right where do I start? Never before have I wanted to be in beta as much as I do after reading this post. Seeing for myself, it gives me a handle on things that just reading doesn't do.

    Anyway, first off your idea about DBM. I get where you are coming from but it would never fly for a couple of reasons. First off there are other boss mods out there, BigWigs comes to mind, but there are probably others, so blizz would have to allow for choice. Plus they would never make an addon so official, if they were going to do that then they'd build it into the UI themselves. Which is probably something they should do, given how necessary I think we both view DBM/equivalents. However, some people with skills do run without it. I had a paladin healer on my raid team. He knew the bosses inside out. If I'm honest I used to make him explain the fights to the team as he was a lot more concise and clear than I was. He didn't run with any addons, not a single one, including DBM. There were times when I thought that his death could possibly have been avoided if he ran with it. However, he died no more or less than anyone else and everyone makes mistakes. He was a good healer and a good raider so his lack of DBM aside I was always happy to take him. I realise he's probably the exception that proves the rule but even so, there's no way DBM could be made mandatory if it would lock someone of his skills out.

    Now to get to the main point. I'll be right back as I'm going to dive into wowhead in the hope of proving you at least partially wrong.

    Right ok so dungeons drop 630 ilevel. LFR drops 640 ilevel. If you are looking to raid, then for this first tier yeah LFR would be a thing. Thankfully usually on subsequent tiers if you cleared normal/some heroic, and your luck wasn't completely abysmal then LFR didn't offer anything after that. Of course if you were me then you were still using rep trinkets in Siege as they wouldn't damn drop.

    Anyway, that's for if you are looking to raid. Now, I'm looking at trying Warlords out. I used to raid, clear normal, some heroics, nothing special. However, I can't and won't commit to a regular raiding schedule anymore. Also you know my opinion on LFR. I won't set foot in it if I can avoid it. Where that will put me with something like the legendary ring I don't know. Maybe I can pick up some flex, sorry normal runs with a friend or something maybe, we shall have to see.

    However, dungeons are what I want to run. Dungeons are what I am hoping to find my endgame in which is why I really don't like this post. Mostly because I believe you which sucks.

    It all comes back to the removal of valor really. No valor gear, no upgrades when you got good pieces (I only ever upgraded normal+ raid gear, but then I was raiding). No catch up mechanic for bad luck, for alts, for clear incremental progress for 'casuals'. Seriously I think that has to be blizz's biggest mistake. You know how much I used to love running dungeons. I barely touched them in Mists as they were superseded so fast, they weren't worth running. I did them for achievements and that was it. I had so hoped Warlords wouldn't be more of the same.

    Ok I wanted to dispute your points and I kinda can't. Maybe, just maybe, if they introduce new dungeons in subsequent patches then there will be some progression there at least. It won't be the glory days of dungeons but for this LFR hater, it could be something.

    1. An additional point re the DBM gating suggestion, my current raid team has members that have DBM installed, and sometimes other things like GTFO. That doesn't stop them from failing repeatedly to do the thing they need to do at the correct time - despite the warnings, timers and verbal cues from DBM. No addon can deal adequately with incompetent.

      I'm hoping to run dungeons, since I won't be raiding, but this summary is also depressing for me. I enjoy dungeons in general, but MoP's lack of new ones got old fast.

    2. I really don't want to do LFR either. I'm hoping for this first tier I don't have to. If I could have my 3 crafted items (hopefully all at 665 upgraded or close), along with all the 630 level gear maybe I'll be OK. Also, throw in some luck with those warforged dungeon gear drops (maybe a couple) I might be OK for this tier.

      However, come the next tier, LFR gear will be much higher than what I'd have, I assume, so dungeon gear will be irrelevant and I'd have to do LFR to have decent gear for the new tier, unless they surprise us with new dungeons. This is especially true for new alts i level. Unless there are ways around it, which seems doubtful.

    3. @Taitrina

      It would have a few options, but I get where you are going at. It would then make an addon an official part of the game so to speak and if that were the case why not just add that stuff in game to begin with. Which they said they would never do. But when fights need it, even more so for the average player that is not quick to pick up on things, it should be required. My opinion only of course, but take it as you will coming from a raid leader that still need to yell at people to do things that do have a boss addon and don't notice it.

      I ran them all on beta with 0 addons. I did not die to stupid stuff. I could figure out what was going on. Yes, I know they are not needed, I did just fine with none, but for the majority of players it is needed.

      LFR drops 650 gear, and 640 gear. It is like the MV vs HoF and TotES LFRs. The small first one drops lower gear and the others drop higher gear. Meaning the difference between dungeons and LFR is 20 item levels and if you see the HUGE increase on stats on gear you will see 20 items levels is massive.

      The first stages of the LFR can be done in dungeons only. I got some of it done, so you can at least get the starter rings.

      You can roll in challenge mode dungeons, which there is no queue system. You get chance at a 645 piece in a bag when it is done as long as you finish it, even if you don't make as little as bronze, just finish it. So there is a little challenge for a small group if that is what you are looking for.

      You, like me, liked the catch up system of badges and points from BC through cataclysm. I really wish they would being that back. It was a fantastic motivator to run dungeons.

    4. @Drea B

      I mentioned in my reply to Taitrina the same thing. I still have to yell at people to do mechanics with DBMs installed, but at least it helps some.

      In a side note, the dungeons were fun, where challenging, and were, at least when I had no gear, rewarding to do. But with no continued reason to run them I am worried for their future usefulness. That is what this post is about. Once the newness and gear factor wear off, there seems to be no reason to run them.


      As you said, unless when the next raid comes out they add a while slew of new dungeons, you will be forced into LFR on any new characters. No ifs and or buts about that one. Just a sad state of design.

      I have always been of the opinion that with each raid tier the gear from the dungeons should be upgrade but I understand why they are not. However, the valor system worked wonders for this. With the new raid tier came new valor gear and new reason to run dungeons to get valor to buy that valor gear. Once more I say, valor gear was the greatest motivator and was, and will remain, the only reason to run dungeons past opening week. I fear that without it dungeons have no future in the game outside of the initial release.

  4. There were a couple mentions of crafted gear, but that's not going to help much. As usual, Blizz is making them horribly expensive and laborious to craft. Currently, one piece of 640 gear takes 10 days worth of cooldowns. The upgrade to 655 takes another 15 days and the upgrade to 665 takes yet another 20 days... So it would take 45 days to make one 665 piece... Supposedly, with the garrison building and the profession you get two daily CDs, so those numbers could be cut in half, but still... That's a ton of work for one piece of gear.

    1. The crafted gear idea is fantastic. The time and requirements for it are insane. They always seem to come up with decent ideas and then screw them over some way. My biggest issue is not only that it takes so long to make but you are limited to 3 crafted pieces.

      And that does not mean 3 leather pieces either. That is 3 crafted pieces over all. So If I have my engineer make the helm I can only have 2 leather pieces. If I pick up a craft ring or neck, I can only have 1 leather pieces. It is 3 crafted pieces over all. Counting all professions as one. I would love to know who came up with the moronic idea to limit it to three and then who made the idea worse so that all professions count as one so I can kick him in the shin.

  5. The more I read about this xpac from people really analyzing their beta experiences, the more I am convinced that WoD will be Blizz's "jump the shark" episode. The elimination of valor effectively means that only people who raid with a decent raid team can get decent gear, and then if and only if the RNG gods favor them. Those of us who raid with mediocre-at-best raid teams are out of luck or stuck with LFR and pug options. The value of professions is pretty much gone, for a lot of reasons, not the least of which you described. And Blizz is pretty much dictating that I must spec BM on my hunter. MM will be pretty much a caster type play style, which if I wanted that type of play I would roll a mage, and my favorite SV has been all but stripped of any meaningful burst dps with which to help down bosses at critical moments. Not to mention the whole stat issue with gear, which you discussed a few weeks ago.

    There simply cannot be anyone at Blizz who actually plays this game on a normal server with a normal player population. This is gaming of the devs, by the devs, for the devs. I want to like WoD, I really do, but I am not optimistic that it will be anything other than an unmitigated catastrophe.

    1. I have been on the opinion that no one at blizzard actually plays the game for a long time myself. So many changes over the years make little to no sense and can not be explained.

      Time is running late but I still have this little sliver of hope thinking they will do the right thing. They will turn apexis crystals into something akin to valor and offer more than a few lower than LFR gear pieces with it. But if history proves anything, and as they say history is damned to repeat itself, there really is no hope they will fix this.

      I called this expansion raid or die, and it was, my tanks are proof of that with their crappy 510-530 item levels because I refuse to tank LFR and there were no other gearing options worth doing. Next expansion is taking it a step further. It is even more raid or die.

      One day blizzard will realize that people like to get gear. Giving them gear, or a means to get it, keeps them coming back and subscribed. They need to make the raid gear better, of course, but still offer slightly, not hugely, lower gear outside of raiding, or people will start leaving, as they have been in droves since blizzard started this hardcore mentality.

      First with harder heroics in cataclysm and then with raid or die in mists. They started to bleed subs and they continue to forget who pays the bills, the casual players. Next expansion takes the worst of cataclysm (harder heroics) and the worst of mists (raid or die) and puts them both together to put the final nail in the coffin of the casual player.

      You might be right, the shark most definitely had been jumped. If wow never became more casual friendly they could have stayed with this design. But it did and you can not step backwards or it will kill the game. Just look at the subs as proof of that.

  6. My honey (lock) does not use DBM and raids heroic just fine. Actually, uses only 2 addons in all and they are AH related. My RL never asked my honey to get it, not even once. Having it as a requirement would be silly.

    1. You made one fatal error in your statement. You are comparing apples to oranges.

      The difference between "intelligent" players and "random" players are about as far a part as new york and japan.

      I have and could raid without DBMs and so could hundreds of others, not really hard for anyone with a few extra brain cells that notice they are standing if fire or missing any other simple mechanic.

      The thing is, just because I can do it, just because your GF can do it, doesn't mean the majority can. Never ever use the "because I can do it anyone can" argument in an MMO. It does not hold water.

      You have to think of the bigger picture, the one where 93% of the max level players (as of last numbers) have never even stepped into a heroic raid.

      The game, at least in randomly grouped content, needs to be designed for the 93%, not the 7%.

    2. I get your point and agree with it. Just that I bet I'd see neverending rage on my honey's part if this was implemented. VERY short fuse. Yes, I'm being selfish.

    3. I can surely understand that. Why should she need to?

      However, I am sure the decent players would be more likely to accept some inconvenience like downloading an addon (even if they might rage about it) to make it easier for everyone than the players that do not wish to try. So if it keeps they players that refuse to try out, I am all for it honestly.

  7. Where in the sam hill of an elf did this post come from?!? Great Auntie Zelda, I guess no cookie for me.

    -roo the "where in the hell have I been?" hunter

    1. I post nearly every week day. Sometimes on rare occasion I even post 2 things in the same day. But that is rare. Don't want to tire my fingers out.

    2. did you catch the interview with Blizzard CEO and he made a statement that "mmo's is not where blizzard wants to be". Now I am paraphrasing, of course, but that's pretty much the gist of the what he was saying. Hmmm, now if someone can shed a little more light, it would be appreciated, hmmm, GE?

      -roo [I'm finally RETIRED!]

    3. I think it basically means they know warcraft is a sinking ship and instead of saying they want to make the efforts to save it and do the best they can they can say "we do not want to be making mmos" as an excuse for losing customers.

      Basically, it is a statement from a business standpoint so if things go back they can say "we told you we were not focusing on that". They are just trying to cover their asses from the massive failure that warlords is going to be.

  8. The more I hear about this expansion, the less and less I want to play it. No decent gear, no dungeons, no rewards for anything, crafting obtusely complex and time consuming, ad nauseum. Does Blizz never read the forums? Or analyze why millions of people have stopped paying them? It’s infuriating. I want to give them my money so they give me a fun time. It appears they want my money and don’t want to let me have fun. Pitiful.

    1. Blizzard, I will admit, is doing what they believe is best. They just have one HUGE problem with overcompensation. People complained about not enough dailies in cata, so they added way too many and then gated stuff needed behind them in mists, so people complained about having too many and now warlords has none. Not one single quest hub at max level.

      See, they are listening, they are just not all that smart in implementing. The over overboard with everything they do.

      I am sure if they added just as many dailies as they had in mist into warlords but decided to gate nothing behind them, just vanity stuff like pets, mogs, mounts, etc, people would love it, or at the least not hate it.

      People complained about easy dungeons in wrath, they made hard dungeons in cataclysm and wasted their subscriber base plummet, so they made them a little easier in mists, and people complained they were too easy, so they are going hard again and they will lose subs again, no question.

      This is case of bad listening. Dungeons, or any random group content, should be easy. You never know who you will be put into a group with, so they should be easy enough for any group to do. Leave challenge mode for the, get this, challenge.

      Once again, they listened, but did not understand what they were listening too.

      So I will not say blizzard does not listen. But I would say they do not listen to the right things and are even worse at interpreting what they are listening too. Like people saying they hated the mists dailies did not mean they did not want dailies, it meant they did not want things gated behind them.

  9. I see I wrote something above, but I am flying blind in this now. WOW was and is the most successful mmo in the history of gaming. It will never be repeated. it has become more than a game as it is a way of life for a lot of people. And to be sure, it brought out MMO's from the darkness where only nerds were interested in these types of games to the mainstream where everyone, singers, sport stars, actors, average mums & dads, rick mums & dads, etc, played it and talked about it.

    Yeah that's a good thing. So for that asshat CEO make that statement, is bad. You stand behind your product... oh wait... sorry, I forgot. This is 2014. No one does that anymore. never mind.

    1. Good companies still do. Always stand by your product. The only time a company ever stops standing by a product is when they are going to stop supporting it. Which, being wow is making over 1B per year, I do not see them ever even considering stopping supporting it.