Why is LFR a bad option if it perfectly fits Bobs needs? And who says that you *need* to kill the bosses in normal? On top of that, they got scenarios now for the slower guys that give better loot then even LFR, and challenge modes can reward gear as well. I think there's a sense of "failure is not an option right now" with some of the people on these boards when it's perfectly fine to not be able to kill a boss. And I've seen many of the guilds with Bobs go into ToT and at least be able to take down a few bosses.
I believe you're looking at it all wrong. A Friends and family guild wants to do things together, they want to hang out with Bob because despite being terrible Bob is good people and everyone loves hanging out with Bob. Bob can run LFR with 24 strangers, but he's not paying to play with 24 strangers. Bob and friends can go into LFR and be grouped with 15 strangers, but there goes the whole playing with friends, which Blizzard has stated many times they believe is vital to the game.
So what you want to give is 2 options "Get better or quit" By the numbers we're seeing, people are taking the quit option. And you are in the group that believe this is a good thing. Blizzard and the other group doesn't agree.
I still haven't seen any real reason why a 10man LFR+ option is bad. All I see is "Normal is easy enough, if they can't do normal, they should quit" That's just a terrible mindset. The best way to ensure that Heroics stay heroic, is to ensure that the baddies and normal have something to do. You should be begging Blizzard for a 10man LFR plus option. Else you're really advocating that Blizzard go back to nerfing normal and heroics for all so that everyone has something to do with their friends and family.
And now I want to thank Mad Murdock for putting it so perfectly. For making me see that I know bob and I like bob and I would really enjoy playing with bob.
Actually when he mentioned bob it reminded me of a few people I know and I want to share my bob stories and explain why I like being able to play with bob.
Bob #1: The PvP guy.
This bob is more of the PvP type of player in a PvE type of guild. A military man that has served with people in our online family. So even if we are not a PvP guild he is our PvP guy. He is our family. When I am in the mood to PvP he will gladly go with me and include me in his little crew that does them. He will go out of his way to teach you everything you need to know about the battleground, he will play the leader, he will play any role needed. He is well geared for PvP, well skilled for PvP and very knowledgeable and a good teacher for PvP.
How anyone can be that good at PvP and so bad at PvE I will always find astounding. It escapes explanation. He can go blow for blow with the best of them but telling him to move from the charge on horridon so that he is not facing the group when he gets to you is like I am speaking a foreign language to him. Usually PvPers make for amazing PvEers when they try but bob #1 is the exception to this rule.
He tries his best to keep at least one tank, one healer and one damage dealer at least close to current with their PvE gear. When we are missing a person for our 10 man he is always the first to offer to help and also the first to offer to sit when someone better comes on. He knows he is not a great PvEer but he still wants to help in every way he can, if we need him while at the same time being completely content if we never do.
Bob #1 is good people. He will stop what he is doing to help you with a quest, give you an instant queue to a dungeon or the LFR on his tank or healer, make you anything you might need from his professions and he is always very upbeat and happy. All in all a good presence in the clubhouse.
Sadly, bob can tend to be a problem sometimes. Even on the first boss in ToT. While we carried him as a healer in hopes he can get some gear and carried him as tank when I was the other tank and called out everything that needed to be done we can not carry him as a damage dealer. At least not as we should. We have 8 manned the first boss. We do not need his damage. But he just can not move when targeted. Like I said, lightning reflexes in PvP and can't run out of a puddle when in PvE, I don't get it. I finally told him, to NOT stack in the puddle with us. That was the only way to get the boss down.
So Bob #1 is a bad PvEer. I've proved that 100% haven't I? But I like Bob. I want to be able to play with him once in a while without having to change how we do things because he really isn't that great at PvE.
Bob #2: The Healer vs. Mechanics
Bob #2 is actually an extremely good raider in most senses of the word. She keeps up on her class, always knows the changes as soon as they happen and works tirelessly on getting gear when she is not raiding. She comes to the raid with materials as she is a jewelcrafter and enchanter so if anyone wins something she can make what is needed so they can get it on right away. She has not missed a raid in 3 years, she comes with her own food, flasks, and anything else you can imagine. She is the ideal raider.
But some mechanics she just has issues with. Not sure why but as I always say, some people are just better at things than others are and we all have something we have an issue with.
The first time we went to HoF she had an off night, as we rotate healers. We were lucky enough to get the first boss down on that first night. The week after she sat out so we could test a new healer and we one shot it that day. The third week she came in and she was dying every single attempt.
She just could not get the circle thing. Not sure why, but she died to it every single time. We wiped 8 times that night, more than we wiped before the first time we beat it. She knew it was all her fault too. I did not say as much but when the healer dies so early in a fight every time, people know why you are wiping. Like I said, she was a good raider, she knew it was her fault and offered to step out.
I told her she was not allowed too. Not in a mean way of course. We are a team, we win as a team and we wipe as a team and we all need to learn, today is just her day to learn. We took a five minute break and I was told by a friend that she was crying. She actually felt bad as if she was holding us back. While to someone in a more progressed guild would surely say she was, I would say we are just experiencing her time to learn. Just because we all learned it faster doesn't mean everyone learns at the same pace.
I whispered her some words of encouragement and let her know that we had not downed the second boss anyway, so it is not like we were losing loot because of the wipes, we will get this down before the night is over, she is getting better.
She did get better. Took another 4 wipes but we got it down. She kept apologizing over and over even if we all said it was no problem. Some people just take a little longer to learn things that others. That is something a Bob would do right? Well this Bob #2 I like to raid with. It just takes her a little longer to grasp some things.
On an interesting note, she made it through the tornado's on the second boss her first time. I don't know a great deal of people that could say that. Like I said, we all have our own learning curve. Bob #2 just takes a little longer to learn some things.
Bob #3 : The Airhead.
Bob #3 is a girl. I am not talking the type of girl that is horrible and gets taken along just because she is a girl or because she is dating someone. I am talking the skilled, but sometimes common sense deprived person. If you will excuse the expression, Bob #3 is a complete airhead.
If you have fallen off the bridge when there is no wind multiple times, you might be Bob #3 and not even realize it. I just can not play with her in non raid content sometimes. I find it infuriating. She is an excellent raider, willing to sit out or level another character because we need that role filled. She will learn that role and be ready to play it at our current level as fast as gear drops will allow. She is dedicated, but she is also, as I said, is an airhead.
If there are mobs anywhere in the room, she will walk right into them. If there is a pat that we say you need to avoid, she will surely AFK right where they pass. If we take a 10 minute break it is not uncommon to come back to the entire raid being dead because she accidentally pulled the boss. She dismounts herself mid fight at least 5 or 6 times a night if not more and no one has a clue how, not even her.
If there is a boss fight going on she is a beast. Great at whatever you have her do. When there is not anything going on, expect her to pull mobs to you even if you were one hundred percent sure there were no mobs within miles.
This type of behavior would clearly label her a Bob even if her ability might seem to say otherwise. If you do not think this is Bob behavior, just trying doing a heroic scenario with her and saying, lets skip this pack only to her her say, okay, and still run right into them.
While I actually do not like playing with Bob #3 sometimes, I do like to raid with Bob #3.
Bob #4: The Noob.
Back at the end of wrath a very quiet and very bad player joined our 25 man. It was the 30% ICC buff days and we were blowing through everything so we had no issues bringing them. Even after they got a lot of gear they still could not break 3K. Think back if you can, 3K in ICC with the buff would be roughly the same as someone doing 15K in 500 gear now. Horrible.
He got a little better as time when on. He was always up for everything but really not that good at anything. He was on vent all the time but he never said a word. As rude as this might sound at first, it was like he was our mascot. He tagged along with us everywhere we went and no matter what we did. Honestly I could not tell you if Bob #4 was 13 or 30, I could not tell you if Bob #4 was male or female. But Bob #4 still found a way to grow on you.
Somewhere between wrath ending and cataclysm beginning Bob #4 changed. He became a vocal part of the guild and a great player. Even earned an actual raid spot when we started raiding in cataclysm, not just a fill in spot because we needed a body role like he had always been either.
If you look now you will see his name littered in the top 50 on every world of logs fight since around firelands when he finally went from the getting better to the holy crap you are good phase. Not only can he put out the numbers but he avoids the avoidable, never misses a raid, will tank for anyone that needs instant queue, will craft gear and even grind the materials to craft gear, if someone needed it.
He was once a Bob, Bob #4 if you will, and now he is indispensable as a raider. We kept him around because he was our mascot, he became a part of the team never saying a word even if he was not great or even good. It was that time we dragged him everywhere that made him want to get better. He liked doing those raids and from listening on vent he knew that when we started the cataclysm raids he would not be a part of them. So Bob #4 said, I need to get better, and he did. If it were not for us playing with Bob #4 he would have just quit the game because he had nothing to do. He even has said so himself. Sometimes a Bob can be the best thing that ever happened to a raid team. In time.
Bob #5: Mr. & Mrs. Bob
All family and friends type guilds have these Bobs. Most if not all casual guilds have these types of Bobs. They are the "we only run together" crew. One is usually good and one is usually bad. Don't go assuming that it is the male that is good and the female that is bad however or you will have egg on your face. I have seen it go either way myself. Actually, more often than not, it seems the female is the better player. Eat that one "girls don't play wow" crowd.
But they are good people and when we can squeeze them in we like to play with them. They are fun to have around, knowledgeable about the game and in some ways even more knowledgeable about some things than anyone in the raid as raiding is not their focal point.
Sometimes you can get just one of them, usually the good one, but most times you have to take them both or get nothing. Like those nights where you are down a tank he will tank, as long as there is an open space for her. If there is, we would surely agree. Although we all know she is bad, that doesn't mean we can't do content, or it shouldn't right. Because Mr & Mrs Bob are nice people and sometimes it is nice to do something with them.
We actually have a joke this expansion or Mr & Mrs Bob thanks to MV. They are two third players. We could do MVs first four bosses with them but could not down the fifth. Kind of hard when they are both doing DPS in the 20s. But hey, they were fun to play with and we were capable of doing a few bosses with them. But even that only happened after we past MV and over geared it a little.
The Mr & Mrs Bob I am thinking about at the moment have since quit the game as there is no place for them any more. They get brutalized in the LFR because they are not good players and we have been focusing on new stuff so there were no older raids to invite them to that we would get some bosses down with them. It is sad to see them go. They were really nice people.
Bob #6 - 10,000+
There are so many bobs out there that fit so many stereotypes that I could not count or list them all even if I wanted to. But what Mad Murdock said is so true. Sometimes you just want to play with bob because you like bob. No more, no less. You just like bob and want to play a game with him.
So the answer to that question would be I think there should be a 10 man version of the LFR and/or a difficulty lower than normal but higher than LFR.
Perhaps that 25 man I mentioned in my last post would have not been so horrible if there were such a thing. LFR, with that group filled with Bobs, would have been a joke but normal with them was impossible. It shows there is a clear gap there. And all those people, those Bobs, are the ones that gap leaves with nothing. And sadly for me, if I ever want to run 25s again on my server, I am going to have to take a few Bobs along like it or not.