Everyone makes their options based on what happens to them, the people around them, and their immediate surroundings. There is nothing wrong with that. How can someone formulate an opinion on something they have no frame of reference for?
The key to keeping your tainted vision from getting too skewed is the accept the fact that any opinion you have is based only on your available data, from whatever sources it might come. I too am often victim of my own tainted vision as I can only judge things from my own experiences or the experiences of others that I can believe to be true. However, I attempt to keep an open mind on most things.
Lets take raiding for example. I keep saying that horrirdon is way to hard for the average normal mode raider now. It is based on my own personal experiences, it took us a long time. My servers progression, where only 8 guild have even downed him, mine being one. And all the horror stories I see on the forums. I've also went so far as to go down the ranks of wow-progress to see if my servers situation was like those of other servers. As it turns out, it is. Many servers have less than 50% of the active (as in having downed the first boss) guilds have downed the second and on small servers that number could be even higher.
With that data I give my opinion that horridon is just too hard for the player base as is. I have my own personal observations to fall back on and the additional information I was able to collect to think about. Hence the reason I came to that conclusion. I would also feel safe in saying that opinion is accurate for the majority of the player base and even more so the majority of non-hardcore raiding guilds, to which it would be an easy fight of course.
So with all that said I can understand that other people might see things differently but sometimes I think the biggest problem on the forums, any forums, is the inability of people to see things from any perspective but their own. They have a tainted vision and refuse to believe that any vision but their own is true.
Take this next line as the perfect example of someone, that in my opinion, has no grasp of reality. Paraphrasing it of course.
"You can hit 90 and get into a pug to go 12/12 in ToT on day one. Anyone that has not finished throne is either bad or not trying. My monk full cleared in a pug 2 days after I dinged."
This is the perfect example of a tainted view. From my own tainted view I can tell you that on my server most ToT pugs fail at even getting the first boss down and none have ever gotten the second boss down. As a matter of fact, that is the reason there is a lot of buzz going on with my guild trying to assemble a 25 man group and getting to the 4th door on week two with what is still a relatively weak crew. Because my 25 is basically still just a pug of my guilds alts and whomever we can recruit.
I must first say I don't believe a word that guy said. I do not think there are any servers in the game where you can hit 90 and get into a ToT pug that full clears. Maybe, just maybe, if you have a main that is doing heroic content and are a very well known person on a high progressed server you can get a spot in a mostly guild group to get yourself carried to a full clear. But that is about as far as I will believe.
This guy however defended himself. He actually believed that you can do this on any server. Any server? My server finally has its 4th guild that has finished normal. 5th is getting close, 6th, 7th, and 8th (mine) are not about to finish it any time soon, maybe next month. With that collection of guilds to choose from, the limited experience of most of them, and the poor player base to choose from, a 12/12 pug is not only improbable, it is impossible.
But the people coming from my perspective are not the ones that turn the forums into a bash fest. No one 6/12 ever bashes someone for being 5/12. Heck, on my server most of the people that have finished it do not bash the people that are 1/12 because they know that with what my server has to offer, downing horridon is hard.
The community would be a better place if people realized that not every one lives in their own tainted view. I see it all the time in the LFR, people love to say, I've done this on normal so I know what I am talking about. As if they are talking down to the others there. They do not realize that for many people it is not that they are incapable of doing it on normal, they are not able to because of outside reasons. Raiding is not solo content. You can be the best player in the world but unless you can find 9 or 24 equally skilled players, you will still be 1/12. Simple as that.
You can not judge a player on their progress in a raid alone. There are other factors to consider and it is only people thinking in their own tainted view that makes them believe that anyone with more progress has no life and anyone with less progress is bad. A tainted view with the blinders on. Most people in the game seem to live like that.
I am willing to accept that there are some servers that actually pug some heroic bosses. My alt shaman on another server has seen them. Have not leveled it since wrath so I can not go of course, but I see them in trade. I also realize that this is one of the most advanced US servers. It is the exception, not the rule.
It seems people too far at the top have a hard time looking down and being realistic. Same goes for people too far down at the bottom not realizing that there is an up. As if their tainted view is not willing to bend. What they believe is right. Always. And that is wrong.
One thing people need to understand is that not all experiences are the same. Just like my bad luck with loot streak. I complain about it, 8 weeks, all bosses, no drops, but that is just one case. Even if most of my characters have that type of luck I know that is not the way it is for everyone. Yet the person that wins everything all the time seems to think that it is that way for everyone.
Maybe all this is about is that I want to know what server it is that you can hit 90 and get into a 12/12 clear on day one. I think I will send my alts over there. If it is that easy, they can carry a crappy lock can't they?
That comment just amazed me about how detached from reality that person is. Even more so how he went on to defend it. Remember, everyone should be 12/12 because you can hit 90 and get into a full clear on any server. Some people just amaze me how blind they are.
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I should have a macro for "You're a moron." to break out whenever someone says something like that.
ReplyDeleteWarning: Generalizations ahead.
Oddly, I find that almost everyone in the game is a bit of an elitist, no matter where they are progression-wise. The really epic players think everyone should be like that, the clueless bottom-of-the-barrel types think their group is what's holding them back and the competent (but not competent enough) raids who aren't killing bosses feel like everyone has killed that boss but them.
The only thing that can break through that is what you did - a wee bit of research. 50% of raids are stuck at 1/12? Yeah, that means something.
There was just another Blizz comment about Horridon being too hard for a #2 boss in a raid. More hope that the 5.4 raid will be more of a ramp than a series of speed bumps.
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Our 10M guild is one of these having major issues. Down Jinrohk easy. Been on Horridon for at least 8 wks.
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We think in retrospect that Horridon had a lot going on for a second boss. We'd prefer a smoother difficulty curve.
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Nobody's ever going to be completely unbiased, I just prefer dealing with people who can accept and embrace their biases. I also wish the vocally biased could be silenced.
I think I am in the "feels everyone beats the boss but me" school. I know if my guild raided more often we would be able to progress further but I rationalize it by knowing that at least I enjoy playing with them and that does matter. That way of thinking works for me, but not for everyone.
DeleteI feel the horridon pain. Took us 5 weeks to beat him. 5 long and hard weeks. There is no reason a #2 of 12 boss should have taken us that long. I know it was all an execution issue. I know it was a we need to pay attention issue. But I believe it was too soon in a 12 boss raid for something like that. My opinion at least. And that is what is killing most guilds right there.
I have been in two groups on two different characters (and a new 25 I am working on) stuck on horridon. One is amazing damage, healing, tanking, but not so great at the dance. That caught them and hung them up.
The other group is amazing at the dance. I mean nothing gets cast. They are that on the ball but they can not meet the DPS requirements. With more DPS they would be fine but that is holding them back.
Guess which one of my two groups got past it first. The DPS heavy one. Mechanics can be learned if you make enough attempts. High damage requirements are harder for people to "learn". So they have to over gear it. That takes time and luck.
So yes, horridon is horrible. I think those words are so close for a reason. ;)
I feel your pain.
I honestly wish there was an option of skipping bosses you have already defeated. If there was I would never do that fight again.
Yeah, the option to skip fights would be welcome but I'm still very much undecided on whether I like lockouts or not. I've had raid groups in the past almost ripped apart just due to lockouts... those of us who need some kills in our week vs those who only care about the progression. MIGHT be a bit different now with LFR (kills are happening at least) but I'm not sure. Luckily isn't an issue so far this expansion.
DeleteIn the spirit of perception, saw these back-to-back gems over on MMO-C... not going to bother posting the Blizz response.
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The difference so far is so minimal that pvp players feel shafted and feel as if they have grinded PVP gear for little to no difference when in competition with PVE players.
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PVP gear feels useless, PVPing feels pointless. There is no reward, pvp players feels like they are always on par if not worse off than that of pve players. Just READ the forums, look at how people are feeling, screw the statistics, look at how fed up the PVP player base is with these changes!
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"Screw the statistics." Yeah, you're going to get pretty far by telling someone to ignore the facts that are actually available.
Put yourself in the place of the Blizz employee who has to respond to that... I mean, true, PvE players are just SHOWERED with PvE gear that's roughly on par with PvP gear for PvP (ie. i522+). No grinding involved at all.
"PvPing feels pointless." If there's any validity in that comment as a whole (there isn't), that statement ruins it and turns it into an "I'm taking my ball and going home" sulk.
If you think PvE gear is equivalent and easier to get? Fine, go get it. Enjoy your lower power and worse gear grind. Rare, random drops FTW.
If you think PvP is pointless, then... uh, don't do it. Your relative gear level has zero influence on whether something has a "point" or not.
You want to know why I have so much tolerance for Blizz when they respond in a way that seems somewhat questionable? Because generally, whatever they're replying to that time, while perhaps reasonable, is such a drop in the bucket vs all of the absolute garbage that they have to deal with on a daily basis. When 98% of the feedback you receive is useless, it can become hard to see the occasional useful ones in the mix and it can become too easy to respond on semi-autopilot. Human beings are human.
Blizz needs to start enforcing a rule for forum posts... you can only speak to your own opinion, not that of others. Period. While anyone's opinion is of arguable value (personal bias, self-interest, etc), at least it avoids the fake majority pack mentality that kicks up so often.
I'll offer my own views, for arguments sake of course.
Delete"screw the statistics"
I've said it before and I will say it again. Blizzard employes are horrible at customer service. However, having to answer things like this I feel for them. I would do the best thing any customer service rep can do. Pass the buck. Saying something like you can not ignore the only available data you have, would be the right thing but sometimes it is better to just ignore statements like that. Them even answering it is their own fault. They should never touch a statement like that with a 10 foot pole.
"PvPing feels pointless"
That falls into the tainted view category. I agree with it. But I do not PvP. One of the reasons I do not PvP is that I feel it is pointless. I do it from time to time for some fun, nothing more. I am not skilled enough to get a high rating and outside of getting a high rating what does PvP offer me, nothing, so to me it is pointless.
I love (said with sarcasm) the people that call PvE gear easy to get. I would trade the PvE gearing model for a PvP gearing model in a heartbeat. PvP gearing is easy gearing. PvE gearing is wait and pray gearing. And no matter how good you are it doesn't make a difference. If it doesn't drop, you can't get it. But again, a tainted view. They are only seeing it from their angle and I only mine.
I think part of the problem is the questions that they choose to answer. I would never even bother with answering a question or statement that there is no answer for.
They need to pick and choose their fights better. I do feel for them because as you said 98% of the stuff they hear is bullshit. But even when they answer the 2% they are really bad with their replies. That is when I often get upset with them.
They need to learn sometimes it is just better to let people vent and not try to rationalize with them. On average from what I have seen, people will only see things from their tainted view.
Arguments always welcome, it's boring when everyone agrees. :)
DeleteWhat I find especially amusing about the PvE/PvP gearing comment is that PvP gearing integrates SKILL into the equation... I believe the better you are (rating-wise), the better the gear you can get, and at some point you can buy awesome gear with lesser points. Does PvE offer ANYTHING like that? I think you'd like to see a skill requirement for PvE gear, I'd definitely welcome it as well... had a completely inept hunter in a ToT LFR last night who kept dying to, well, everything, and kept soaking up BRs... I think he had at least one buddy in the run who kept bringing him up. At least one wipe happened when we ran out of BRs and couldn't get a tank up late. I'm still annoyed about that wipe.
But back on topic. I mean, hell, I bought the i476 (?) PvP pants for my hunter when I was gearing him up a couple of months ago... with honour points. The last time that toon did any PvP was in BC during my period of learning to hate PvP. I did have to supplement by converting some JP to HP, though... and JP are hard to get these days and have a ton of other uses. So, that toon used currency from 4 EXPANSIONS AGO plus a currency that I have about 30K of across toons that are serving no purpose to buy a competitive PvE piece that's even BETTER for PvP. Oh, and HP can also be used to buy mounts for, what, 1/3 the cost of what the JP heirlooms cost? Has nothing to do with gearing, but christ, what more do the PvP folks want when it comes to useful purchases with uncapped low-end points that they get just from PLAYING? You still can't buy i489/i496 pieces without VP or without 5K+ in gold worth of mats.
I don't care how biased they or we are, there's no other way to spin it than PvP is much less frustrating to gear for. Sure, it might require some skill to get the best gear, but that's generally true for PvE as well... and PvP gearing is a consistent process, PvE is almost entirely random (drops) or incredibly time consuming (weekly VP cap).
If anyone's on the other side of this, I'd love to hear about it... what am I missing?
You are so right on Horridon is WAY to hard for his location. We've had him on farm for months now and every time we go against him I still get nervous on that 3rd and 4th door ugh.
ReplyDeleteDoor two took us a long time with no one to take care of poison on our team. Once we mastered the interrupts and stuff we were fine thanks to being DPS heavy. We thought, now we got it. But then we met the 3rd and 4th door. lol
DeleteAs I said about to the other poster. I wish there was an option to skip a boss you have already beaten. I would never do that boss again.
My guild was on Horridon for at least 5-6 weeks. Then the guild pretty much just fell apart. People left, or stopped raiding (I stopped in January due to real life) but I think Horridon had a small role in the frustration and failness.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't just the fight itself I would say.
DeleteDifficult fights are okay, there needs to be some sort of check in a raid, even on normal modes.
If I had to guess I would say it was a combination of three things.
1) The check being so early in the raid.
- Lets get real, a 12 boss raid and stuck on the 2nd? That is not fun. If it were even the 5th it would have not been as big a deal.
2) It was a dance check.
- Dance checks take longer to over come. Everyone has to move to the right place at the right time or it is a wipe. For normal mode players this is the biggest challenge in the game and one that can not be over geared. A DPS check would have at least been something you could see progress on.
3) The fights are too damn long.
- Wiping 100 times can break a casual guild if it is a 3 minute fight, what do you think it s going to do when it is a 10 minute fight. You get less attempts which means less chances to do better and less opportunity to see improvement.
Add those three together, with some other factors I am sure I did not mention, and that is why your guild and thousands like it, died at the hands of a dinosaur.
aye, I would fail the dance check. Dwarves can't dance unless we have some ale first.
DeleteThen I would suggest drinking heavily for some fights. ;)
DeleteMy personal experience with Horridon (1 kill after 4 pulls in an alt run...) doesn't fit the model, but I can't disagree with the data. If the data shows people aren't progressing, then people aren't progressing. Simple as that.
ReplyDeleteMost people aren't numbers people though; they're all about personal experience as Grumpy said. Personally, I strive to be logical about things (not saying that is always the case but I "strive" for it), but people are generally emotional and aren't concerned with data and logic.
For many people, if the data doesn't fit with their argument, it doesn't make them feel good, so they dismiss the data. Doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, all that matters is how they feel.
As Grumpy also mentioned, Blizz seems to feed the trolls a lot though which doesn't help matters.
All we can ever do is strive for that. I try to be open minded to most of the time. Sure there are a few things I will not budge on but I try.
DeleteRight now, as odd as it sounds, the curve for the casual guild is horridon. If you beat him you are ahead of the curve, if you don't you are behind it. That I say is based on data. Sure, since I looked it up about a month ago a lot of the guilds that did not get him down have now done so but the percentages are still overwhleming in how many haven't and how many guilds have broken up because of him. Even one person in the comments here said that it killed his guild.
I find that people that completely dismiss that are usually the ones just trying to make themselves feel better than they really are.
4 pulls really. I am so jealous. Took me 63 I believe. The boss after took 4 however. I can't see how they can make 2 so much harder than 3. But that is just from my experience.
I have my own tainted view on Horridon. We wiped on it for maybe one night before we got the kill second attempt on the next night. Since then we've sometimes wiped once or twice before the kill but increasingly, even after we've had such a roster shakeup, we are one shotting it. So to me Horridon is ok as my team beat it reasonably easily and keep on beating it. Plus Horridon has very good loot, not that it ever drops, but I want it too.
ReplyDeleteFrom that experience I'd say the difficulty is fine. We were stuck on Council longer than Horridon and Tortos continues to give us problems. That being said this week two raids, seven bosses dead. This is my tainted view. Even after we lost our top dps and best healers we're doing fine. We carried one of the worst healers I've ever encountered to Mageara before I had to call the raid early, no way we'd kill it with them healing (or rather not healing) so yeah tainted view.
I can't argue with statistics. My friends guild had 100 wipes on Horridon before they downed it. Another guild I know hasn't long entered Throne but Horridon feels like a big brake to them, compared to how easily Jin'rokh went down. Then there's your statistics so clearly I've been quite lucky with groups. I'll admit that. My initial reaction is "well I suppose it was harder back before they nerfed it and we didn't have any Tier 15 gear" but I don't ever want to be an elitist. Ji-Kun seems misplaced difficulty wise to my group, maybe he should have been second. Primordius is another so maybe third. Council and Horridon are both trickier probably. However tainted view, what is easier to some is harder to others.
We still wipe after doing it. Always takes at least 3 or 4 attempts. So we have most definitely not mastered it. And that is not even taking the 25 man into account which has not downed it at all yet.
DeleteYour story just goes to support what I always say. Each group has its strengths and weaknesses. We destroyed council easy. We call it the loot council because it is so easy. But that is a to each their own thing. Every team will face different challenges.
I think horridon becomes easier for those people that are good at target switching, control and putting out numbers. I would guess a highly PvP skilled group would get it down more than a PvE only group. Just my opinion however. I see guilds around 500 item level having huge problems with him. Once you get to the 510 range you can start to over power him. Sometimes I think that is the only reason we downed him. We got more gear. Only one person below 500 and everyone else between 505-515 when we downed it. Sometimes, that is just what a group needs.
Yeah, my raid wiped on it twice before we got it last night... did have a couple of replacement healers, though, and some role/toon switching vs our more normal group so that wasn't entirely surprising or demoralizing...
DeleteIf a group has good tanks, situational awareness, dps, dispels and healers who can keep the tanks up, sure, a group is going to have a relatively easy time with that. Apparently a significant number of raids struggle with one or more of those aspects, though.
"amazing damage, healing, tanking" - I can't understand what this means to you.
ReplyDeleteThere's so many things to factor in. iLvl for example. A lot of people went in in ToT with iLvl way below 500 and expected to down a Horridon. What do you expect?
What was your team's iLvl when you downed Horridon? Ours was 505. While it was week 1 (without nerfs), I still think that yours is probably lower.
Population is also a big factor, there's no competition, no motivation, no people to learn from and most important, no people to choose from. Your best may be non-raiding material.
Raids always had mechanics that had you doing 5 things at the same time. Halfus for example - watch for debuffs, do the switch right, hold aggro on the whelps and chain cooldowns to survive the two other dragons tanked along these, avoid crap on ground, keep the boss right so dpses don't sit in fire, be ready to hand the healers so they can heal during roar, be ready to use living action potion, execute your rotation perfectly. On a FIRST boss. Is that easier than now? It's not. It's just that that was the tank, not the dpses. Tanks and healers made a backbone that could carry people and dpses felt like they were good. Give the same responsibility to them and suddenly you realize how bad they are. Are the raids really that hard? Or is it actually the fault of responsibility shifting?
I am sure ours was higher. I remember only one person being below 500. So if I had to guess I would say maybe 510 on average. We did not down him week one however.
DeleteBut you asked what I wanted. I wanted to down him week one. In a 12 boss raid we should have easily been able to down the first 2 or 3 bosses in week one as a casual 2 hour a week team, no problem. If the content was balanced correctly.
When it comes to the 25 I am trying to get running I would say only 15-18 of them are actually people I think of as raiders (good or bad) the others are just the best I can get.
You are only perceiving it from as you see it. I tank, DPS, and heal. Although not healing all that much this expansion. I would like to think that gives me the ability to see it from all three direction and I can assure you that the damage dealer is the one role that often times sees the most pressure. Without a shadow of a doubt. But that is my tainted view, as this is posted.
The fights are more difficult. They are less friendly to bring new people into. And they are less forgiving from the get go. In my opinion, T11 was the only tier I recall where the fights had potential to be less forgiving with one mistake and a wipe mechanics in normal mode.
I think your experiences have made you carry out a whole slew of generalizations. Just like mine does my opinions of course. Again, I have played all three roles and I can tell you I never really feel the pressure as much while tanking or healing as I do while doing damage. The role of damage dealers has always been the most pressure filled role.
The faster the boss goes down the fewer cooldowns the tanks need to use. The shorter the fight the less change the healers have to run out of mana. The shorter the fight the less chance someone can miss a step doing the dance. Who makes said fights shorter? The damage dealers.
The DPS have always had the most pressure filled role (in their own way) knowing that they and only they can make the fight shorter and easier on everyone.
Not sure where you come up with your idea that the pressure has always been on the tanks and healers. Like I said, I play all three and only rarely do I ever feel the pressure of tanking or healing but I have never, repeat never, went into a fight as a damage dealer and did not feel the pressure of a wipe or kill was on my shoulders.
All about perception, and, a tainted vision if you will.
Just as an example. You mentioned Halfus so I will use that. I tanked it for my first kill. Grab drakes, switch guy, hit my shift three interrupt focus macro every other interrupt, collect loot.
Damn, wipe. Why? DPS not getting the drakes down fast enough. Okay, need more DPS.
Damn, wipe. Why? DPS too spread out, hurting the healers. Okay, need more DPS and you need to watch where you are standing for healers.
Damn, wipe. Why? Things are living too long, healers can't keep up. Need to get them down faster.
Damn, wipe. Why? Fight is going on too long, tank ran out of cooldowns. Need more DPS.
Damn, wipe. Why? No one interrupting that thing. Mage, blink after second ring and interrupt. Oh, and need more DPS.
Sorry, I don't know what fight you were talking about saying it was a tank and healer thing. That fight was all about the damage dealers, just like almost every fight in the game is.
There is no shift to the damage dealers having pressure now. It has always been that way since the start of raiding.
I used specific tenses, don't mix them up.
DeleteWrath fights were healer / tank fights. Very few were the ones where it mattered much what the dpses did, and that was mostly on heroic. Tank was the one role you knew you couldn't carry at the time.
The jump was obvious in Cata, where dpses who used to be 'good' started to look bad once they had to interrupt and run around. On some fights it was ok because only a few needed to do stuff, on others, almost all had to do it right (Al'akir).
Tanks did interrupts on Halfus. Dps focus dps. Adds all gathered up for the dps. Kill kill kill. Does a dps check make it a hard fight for the dps? Does that mean doing 5 things at the same time?
Every proper raider wants to max out what he does on his class. On alts, not so much. Do you invest as much time into researching how you can solo tank Megaera to cover up the slack for lower dps as you would for maximizing your dps on it?
On Council I sacrifice frostbite, I interrupt Sul, I max dps on Sul (because it matters), I stun the mob, I switch, I manage my personal CDs and keep an eye out for the raid if heals are needed, I plan my raid walls and aoe heals right, I move the bosses due to empowerment. Come and tell us, the tanks, our dps doesn't matter there where we're top dpses and where we tank in dps gear.
Your role is as hard as you want it to be. When we had problems at Ultraxion on 25m I worked on increasing my dps, I didn't stay content that that's not my job.
A role, whichever that is, means you have to do your best given your team. I don't use CDs on heoric Megaera breath one and two and use a small CD on 3 because I know I have to use big CD on transition to 4. Should I say this is defo dps problem because I shouldn't get 3 breaths? Or should I just do my role and adapt? Maybe even shift more dps myself, maybe help with the stuns, maybe that's why there's not enough dps. Roles are a complex thing and they carry the weight you want to give to them.
I am fully aware dps is highly important. It's so important that dpses get geared first (or they should). The fact that dps can be measured and puts some expectations on them does not make and did not make the role hard. What makes the role hard NOW is fights like Horridon. Having to interrupt and dispell and push your pink Direhorn and keep up your dps. Are you under the illusion that my guild doesn't check the logs and compare my dps to other tank dps? Like I check them for dpsing the right thing, for using healthstones and so on.
We all have to be good on every aspect.
I was thinking of your BOB healer on Vizier. We had one once. We told her to sit on the second platform and wait for us there. Now tell your tank to do that. That's also a fight where we have several 'stop dps' phases. HC at least, can't recall normal, we wiped so much on heroic... Fights and fights.
Base line: ALL have to be good now. It wasn't like that before. This is a good tier.
You know... looking at what you say I can't decide what you're saying anymore. Dps numbers matter so that's the hard part. Ok. But that was always so.You seeem to agree on that. Then? What changed now? Mechanics for them. They have to do stuff, along dps. So shift in responsibility. How are we not agreeing on this?
I also didn't say 'pressure'. I used responsibility. I can feel no pressure as a healer because I like the role so much. But that could be the most important thing on that fight.
DeleteIf I go down on a boss, it's usually a wipe. I solo tank a lot of the fights. My healers also hold the notion that they should never direct heal me. Do we really want to talk about pressure?
What's this pressure anyway? Maybe the healer feels pressure because he has to place Ice Torrent right and also keep in range of his tank or the tank goes down. Same mechanic for the fire mage - annoying because he can't cast trap for adds while moving. Same mechanic for the hunter - whatever. What about me when my healer gets Ice torrent and I hear him saying 'Lovely, I have to run now, you survive there, ok?' and there's a breath coming down on me with still a few seconds left of the fire dot from the head before and I'm all out of CDs.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around your notion of pressure. Yeah, I expect the head to go down in one minute, not in one minute 15 seconds. I can single out the lock for doing 30k less than he should. Is that pressure? I'm expected never to die while having CDs either. Is that pressure?
How should I even explain this. All dpses have to dps. All dpses should have similar dps with similar gear in similar conditions of movement. You only shift 'pressure'in dpses when you (for example) use 3 healers in a two heal fight and they have to meet higher requirements than they 'normally' should.
Again, I never said shifting pressure, but responsibility. Dpses have to avoid crap now and place things now and move right and keep an eye out on debuffs and do dispells... basically do things that don't necessarily come with their roles. When was the last time you had everyone on your raid with a dispell dispell? We did that at hc Horridon. Never before.
@Grumpy - As a normal raider, I'm comfortable with one boss every 2 weeks on average... I do expect a few that'll block for another week or so and the last few can take a bit longer as well but I also expect some to go down the first week. 12 bosses, 24 weeks, ready for the next content patch.
Delete@James - You're coming at this from the perspective of a heroic-calibre raider running with a heroic-calibre raid group. Back in Wrath, I ran ICC with a group that was just one step below your apparent level of competence... if I was still running with that group today, we'd probably be significantly more progressed than my current 4/12 group is (Mag is causing issues since we only have 1 healer who can push out 50K+ hps and our dps is good but not great, it's causing an issue around the 5th head that is a literal block... our attempts are all ending within about 10s of each other).
Anyone doing heroic raiding these days is well in the top 10% of all raiders, quality-wise. So yes, you're all probably comfortable with doing 5 things at once. You need to be. We aren't, and shouldn't need to be.
Me, I'm a former heroic (but never top level) raider who's never been particularly comfortable with more than 3 or 4 jobs in any role on any fight... I get distracted and miss stuff. It's not incompetence, it's a skill/age/attention span thing. I probably wouldn't be skilled enough to run with you today, but I'm feeling HUGELY skilled these days compared to most of the raiders I run into, even on normal and it's VERY rare that I'm impressed by anyone in LFR... I can remember once, just once, lately where someone out-damaged me with less gear. ONCE, in dozens of runs (so, HUNDREDS of players).
Problem is, normal mode raids right now are tuned more for you than they are for us. Used to be that you could hide a lower-calibre player as a dps or OT or healer... there was usually a role in any particular fight where you could sacrifice some skill just to keep from having to 9- or 24-man the place. "Just contribute a bit and don't die." My raid could 9-man the first guy in ToT by sitting a dps spot but we need all 3 healers and both tanks. Other than that fight, none of the other 3 bosses we've killed could be 9-manned right now. Period. Your group could probably 8-man them, dropping a dps and healer or solo tanking by taking advantage of various tricks that average raiders aren't even aware of.
Yes, I wish, more than you would probably guess, that the skill level of average raiders these days was adequate for normal ToT clears and not getting stuck on bosses like Horridon for weeks. I wish I could pug and have success on my server. That just isn't the reality for most of us.
Bottom line: ALL have to be good now and there just aren't enough players of that skill level to go around without having to turf friends or long-time running mates. Normal raiding should include, to some degree, the ability to run with those we want to rather than having to make constant quality assessments. Heroic is where you should actually be competing for a spot. I'm not advocating for LFR-level difficulty for normal, I'd just like to see more forgiving tuning so there's some success earlier in the cycle.
@James - Hmm... could have sworn I saw somewhere in one of your posts that you were doing heroic ToT bosses... but I'm not seeing it now. If I've mis-read the situation, apologies, although my points still stand as written, just maybe not as a comparison to you personally.
DeleteI do raid hc ToT. I don't always mention 'heroic'. But I mention things like adds on Megaera, kiting pink direhorn at Horridon, two tanking Council and stuff like that. Even when I mentioned Halfus and Ultraxion I meant heroic.
Delete@James.
DeleteMy mistake then. I apologize. I agree about the responsibility standpoint. If the tank or healer messes up it can usually mean a wipe but rare is one damage dealer messes up would it mean the same unless there is some mechanic involved or it was a DPS check. So yes, tanks and healers do have a role with more responsibility.
Actually yes, I do study up on that. I am the raid leader, that is why. I not only study up on how I be the best I can be, but how everyone in my raid can be the best they can be. My guild is not the greatest at looking things up on their own but I work with what I have and tell them what to do and they are good with doing it.
I think most of what you are saying you are saying because you come from a different perspective. You are talking heroic, I am talking normal. Yes, you could say it is a DPS issue but you know that it is your job to adapt. I know it is my job to do that as well.
Most players that is a huge concept to deal with. Most players adapting is the one thing you can never teach them. I admit I sometimes get frustrated and yell at people when they can not think for themselves. First night on rag, I put a marker to stack for seeds. Guess what happens? I am sure I do not need to tell you.
We stack, the fire is under the marker, no one moves except me and one person. We wipe. Why didn't you move? You said to stack there for seeds. Think people think. The marker is an idea, not an absolutely. Stack near it. But if it is on fire, get the fuck away from it.
That is why I am saying we are talking from two different perspectives. I doubt you ever have to deal with half the crap I do on a daily basis.
And again, I will have to apologize and say I agree on the last part there. Yes, there is less of a carry ability now. Even on normal. Everyone needs to do their job, not just some. I just think we were coming at it from different directions so we saw things from our own angle. But that is true. Everyone needs to be better now.
We actually are agreeing. Just in an odd way if you will. lol
As for us, I always us three healers. On all fights. I have no choice, our healers are just not that good. Which in turn puts that much more pressure on the damage dealers. My damage dealers are great. I can not praise them enough. They really can put up some numbers and if it were not for them we would get nothing done. Three healing everything does make for unique challenges. Would have put this much pressure on the damage dealers if we had two great healers? I don't know, but I believe I would. Not saying my healers are bad, just really unlucky with gear. All the damage dealers are over 520 now, poor healers are still at only 500 and one tank is not even 500. We have had horrible luck with drops.
@ Anon
DeleteI agree with what you are saying 100%. Once boss every two weeks if fine for me. Makes the expansion last longer. But 4 weeks on horridon was horrible. Even more so by the fact it was such a long fight and there is just so much that could go wrong. It was and is overtuned for the casual guild.
We have 8 manned the first boss. Let two people come in to get some gear hopefully. They did not add much to the table, but the two combined could be considered the 9th man. And like you, that is the only fight I would feel comfortable with like that. Could probably get away with a lesser DPS on the loot council, it is an easy fight, but they would at least need to not get themselves killed. So can't really 9 man that one, but that is the closest one to one we could.
I would like to see normal be more normal. Somewhere between LFR and heroic.
If LFR were a 1 and heroic were a 10 I would say normal is around a 7 when it should be a 5.