Now on to the rant.
I have a new target on the blizzard workforce to be displeased with. Not like I have not shot down things he has said before but Bashiok has really crossed the line between being clueless or playing "the company man" into flat out disrespect for the player base.
In a thread voicing the their dislike for the double gating of valor gear, reputation and valor, he has been going on and on towing the company line that nothing is wrong and you have choices. But recently one post went past just being clueless and into the him telling someone to "go fuck yourself" category.
The posters comment:
They're talking about the reputation needed to purchase the valor gear. Not getting the valor itself. All of my alts are valor capped but you know what I can't do?
SPEND IT.
Why? Because I refuse to do xmillion dailies, or farm a million warscouts on all of my alts.
Bashiok's Reply:
Shado-Pan Assault rep is gained by killing bosses, not doing dailies. But whatever, item upgrades are coming back in 5.3 (and they're cheaper) so that'll be a nice way to dump some VP.
There are two reasons someone might be upset with this lack of a response response. And then there is a third, mine. I've often see things a different way and this comment is no different.
Problem 1:
"Shado-Pan Assault rep is gained by killing bosses, not doing dailies."
- He totally missed what the person was getting at. They are using dailies as an expression. What they are trying to get through his thick and apparently dense head is that they do not want to grind reputation as well as valor. Reputation should offer rewards for the level of reputation you get and valor should be able to purchase valor gear. They should not be combined. Shado-Pan Assault grinding is like a weekly, or a set of four weekly if you will. Doing the LFRs each week to get your reputation, which in many cases is a hell of a lot more annoying then doing dailies. So Bashiok trying to use that as an example that they do not have to do dailies not only fails, but is a horrible way to attempt to justify, explain or address this persons issue with the double gate.
Problem 2:
"item upgrades are coming back in 5.3 (and they're cheaper) so that'll be a nice way to dump some VP"
- So he thinks that the person is complaining they have all this valor and nothing to spend it on? Clueless just does not explain how far off base Bashiok is here. There is not knowing, and there is purposely ignoring. He purposely ignored what the person said. They did not say they had nothing left to buy with valor. They said they have nothing to buy with valor because they do not have reputation. They are not looking to "dump some VP" because they have nothing to do with it you dimwit.
I look forward to 5.3 and the vendors to upgrade my gear coming back so I can upgrade gear. I have all the reputations and I have nothing left to spend valor on. Fine, your answer would be awesome for me if I asked what I should spend it on being I do not need any valor gear at all. I, however, did not ask that question. Someone else that needs a lot of gear asked it and you basically told them, upgrade your 483 gear in 5.3. You did not address their issue which was they want 489 and 496 valor gear and can not get it because they refuse to do dailies. Or, to an extended purpose, they might want 522 gear but they are currently not raiding on that character and refuse to do the LFR to get Shado-Pan assault reputation. They are capped with nothing to spend it on. They just want to buy some gear. How hard is that for Bashiok to understand. What happened to choices? There are no choices here. Want valor gear, grind reputations. Not exactly a choice is it? That is what the person was trying to get at but Bashiok is just too slow on the uptake to understand one simple train of thought by a poster with a legitimate question.
But wait, now to the words that pissed me off and made me want to write a post on a Sunday.
Problem 3:
"But whatever"
See, Bashiok does understand, he just does not care like the rest of the staff. But whatever is their way of saying, go fuck yourself. So let me translate for you, go fuck yourself, if you don't like dailies upgrade your crappy gear come 5.3 you loser. The person said I would like to be able to spend my valor without grinding reputation and all he could say is, wait for 5.3 and upgrade your painfully dated, low item level, useless crap gear. Real nice.
It shows he knew what the person was getting at and just did not care. The player base doesn't mean a damn thing to him or to the people that represent the company on the forums. Because instead of talking to their player base and hearing their gripes they continuously post as if they do not understand what the problem is and dance around it.
But whatever, that is their way of saying go fuck yourself.
I really do hope that person who bashiok was so rude and disrespectful to quits the game and when they ask that person to send in the survey of why they left he can say, because of Bashiok.
Hopefully Baskiok will find his way to the unemployment line very soon because he sure as hell is not capable or willing to do his job correctly and actually understand and convoy the message between the people and the developers of what the problem is. Even if the customer is wrong you need to treat your customers with respect. Even if you want to say go fuck yourself to them, you say it to your buddy in the next cubical. You do not basically come out and post it on the forums with a disrespectful, but whatever.
Some might say it is harsh to ask for someone to be fired because of a few rude comments here and there toward the people that pay their salary. Perhaps he was just getting sick and tired of people on the forums which I could understand 110%. Maybe he just has a moment of weakness and said something slightly snaky and did not mean it as it came out. Perhaps I should not call for them to be fired because they need to pay their bills, they need their job, and there is no reason to fire them over it.
Well, you know what I would say to Bashiok if he said that?
But whatever. Go find another job.
You don't but whatever the people that pay your salary. If you can not address their question. Don't. Do not disrespect someone like that by dismissing what they said with a but whatever.
I have to admit I've become increasing disenchanted with the 'company line' recently. I used to defend it sort of like "well that might not suit me but I can't have it my way all the time" type defense. You know I'd say "well I can see why they've done it, I might wish it was different but this way is probably better for the game". Well screw it because it's not, it's annoying and I don't like it.
ReplyDeleteI always used to roll my eyes at the frothing at the mouth CRZ haters. However, now I'm just hacked off. I like the technology that means I can quest with friends on other servers, but that is when you are in control of it. This forced CRZ garbage is ridiculous. You lose all the advantages of a low pop server (less competition for resources, rares etc.) and get none of the advantages of a bigger server (more active population, more guilds, thriving economy) so really blizz needs to bite the bullet and just merge some servers already. This fake half merging is just screwing people over.
Anyway I just want to say I agree with you. They are just head in the sand, ignoring it you know "la la la la we can't hear you" because we aren't saying what they want to hear. I still love this game, I'm not going to stop playing but their decisions are getting worse. It is removing choice which is the number one thing you should never do. You need more choice, not less. Otherwise people feel boxed in, they feel like a rat on a treadmill, they feel like they can't do what they want, like what they want doesn't matter.
Blizz needs to smarten up and they need to address the issues that people bring to them. Even if they don't do anything they should at least have the courtesy to let us know we've been heard.
I was never a fan of the CRZ from the start. Still am not. Although I will admit they have fixed many of the technical issues I had with it, it still has not fixed the problem of if I want to be on a small server, let me be on a small server.
DeleteYou had a line there I would love to see repeated over and over and over on the forum until someone with a brain reads it.
"You lose all the advantages of a low pop server (less competition for resources, rares etc.) and get none of the advantages of a bigger server (more active population, more guilds, thriving economy)"
It is a lose/lose situation for small servers. Nailed it.
If they took half as much time actually listening to people as they do insulting them, perhaps they would notice there are problems and it is not always a case of people being whiny kids.
Bashiok just being Bashiok, I'm afraid.
ReplyDeleteEver since his rise to infamy (and the corporate ladder) over the Real ID on the forums issue from late Wrath, the guy has made comments that make me scratch my head (to put it politely).
Newcomers asking legitimate questions about Heirlooms in regular PvP got an answer that makes me as XP-Off player steam (in short, 'cuz they worked for their gear, you lazy bastard' ).
Yeah right, as if a) a whole plethora of Twink Gear you actually did work for iso buy with spare lowest denomination currencies you have lying around hasn't been directly or indirectly nerfed over the years and b) that lazy card could not be played by us where Alt Levellers are concerned just the same, if not more as while you can't blame a newcomer for not knowing how and if he can spend time on something in -game, established players obviously DO have the time to get gear, they just chose to do so on a high-level character instead - which is okay, but don't go whining if other established players make different choices in their priorities..
Or the 'doozy' when he said that it is perfectly legit to roll Need on everything the game allows you to, no matter how socially unacceptable (Off-Spec or even No-Spec).
Other examples can be digged up (also from e.g. the D3 Forums) but it it should be clear I'm not a fan ;)
Over here we have more CM's that can taut the company line beyond the point of rediculousness, but the sheer offensiveness of Bashiok is luckily spared to us.
I've lets out a few words about him before. I could call him one hundred and one names and it would still not do him any justice on how low my opinion is of him.
DeleteThe person does not play the game, and if they do, they do so in such a closed in community with only people they know because they seem to be clueless about everything.
I really have to wonder how he, and others like him, keep their jobs. If someone from my company started in with some of the shit he has said to my customers I would fire him in a heartbeat.
Just plain rude. It's like talking to a teenager, that sort of commentary is not acceptable when speaking with customers. I don't know who this Bashiok person is, but his language sounds like a petulant teenager, and language/attitude I wouldn't let my teenager get away with. I'm assuming however that his calendar age indicates he should be beyond this phase.
ReplyDeleteIt still doesn't address the fact that I acquire VP faster than I can even do the rep grinds. I have a shaman unable to spend her 2800 VP until at least 2 more weeks of rep grinding. Which means she'll valor cap and be unable to get the rep without going over 3000. Unless she wastes VP on a 289 to replace a 283 before he can gain enough rep to buy the 522. Which is another beef, why the reduction to 3k VP max instead of 4k?
Is the answer, "You should have planned ahead and calculated out the VP per quest/run you'll need to get enough rep to spend your VP and not done that last LFR that didn't earn you rep?" That's BS, I shouldn't need a three week future projection of my VP gains to be able to spend it appropriately.
I happen to be one of those people that did plan ahead. I like that stuff. However, everyone is not me.
DeleteBut do I say, but whatever? No.
I say it sucks. It sucks for people that do not want to do it. Do not have the time to do it. Do not have the skill to do it. It can be annoying as hell and is too complicated for many.
This is a game, why not just let people play it and not have to make a three week schedule to play it. I agree with you.
But Bashiok doesn't and he sure as hell would tell you a few choice words if you pointed it out to him.
It does sound like he is acting like a child that did not get his way. I am taking my ball and going home. Not a good way to represent a company.
Can I get an AMEN!
ReplyDeleteGood post.
Thank you. :)
DeleteIt's simple, really.
ReplyDeleteNEVER talk to CMs or take them seriously. They might be good guys but they invariably fall into defending the company from the community, which is an idiotic misinterpretation of their role. Their reaction to anything - anything! - is to try and show that the inquirer does not have a full story, that things aren't quite so black and white and all that jazz. They are basically trolling without realizing it. I don't know whether this is because the job is so harsh, it makes everyone a troll, or because the job is so bad, everyone who isn't a troll quits. I don't know and I don't care. What's important is that CMs do not try to understand you, they try to find holes or incompleteness or biases in your posts. They do not do the thinking. They can't answer you, really. They can merely reply with whatever seems relevant = whatever you could have googled in 5 minutes.
Talk to the developers (Ghostcrawler, Holinka, one or two others). They are the ones doing the thinking. Yes, sometimes they seem cocky and rude and everything else. But they do the thinking. You CAN get through to them, you can make them see your point. You can get a reasonable reply from them. There's no guarantee you will like it - I don't like how they prioritize their development, for example - but you will at least have a discussion, you know, with arguments.
But CMs - they are a waste of time.
GC is not much better. He is rarely as rude as Bashiok, that is true. And I have seen him actually listen to people a few times and even more amazingly he has changed his mind when presenting with solid information so some credit is due. But I often get the same feeling from him as I do from everyone else on the team.
DeleteWhat game are they playing?
I swear it seems 99 out of 100 times their answers seem like they are talking about a completely different game.
I think the term 'different game' could be very well appropiate, simply because even between regular players there is a world of difference if you
Deletea) play on a medium let alone 'dead' Faction/Server vs a High Pop one (in the EU, most MVP's seem to play at the High Pop servers and some CM's have let it slip they play in those same Guilds)
b) time of day/ night (WoW at night is whole different beast than playing at peak hours in the weekend, LF's stay put after a wipe for example)
c) premade/Guild play vs PuG/solo play
People who have to rely on the later have a...different playing experience than if you basically only play with the same people al the time (open door, but considering how they used to push premades in PvP & play in such at the PTR, I'd be surprised if solo play constitutes the majority of their playing time where Instanced content is concerned)
I do have bad news however ;P : from a Profile interview on the the Blizz site, bashiok used to play a Hunter in Cata
Absolutely. When I play on my small server or my big server or my RP server, it is a completely different experience.
DeleteThey play in their closed environment and believe that is how it is or everyone. Sadly, they are mistaken.
Maybe he should start playing one again. We would get buffs that way because he would keep saying they are weak. ;)
Josh "Lore" Allen is joining the CM team in a month. I hope he doesn't get dragged down to "corporate mouth-piece" like the others, but it's probably inevitable.
ReplyDeleteHe will, that is the way it works. Kiss the bosses ass or you are fired.
DeleteCan't say I blame them in a way, they are just doing their job and if they are told they can not go against anything that is company design they shouldn't.
As long as they keep their cool and do not become trolls like Bashiok it is all good. You kind of expect him or anyone to be a company man. It is all about how you treat people while being so.
I'm going to (shockingly) take the other side on this post, specifically related to your #3 point, the "But whatever"...
ReplyDeleteThe "But whatever" clearly wasn't intended to be dismissive of the original poster, replace "But whatever" in the original response with "That aside" and I believe you'll get the actual intention. He's acknowledging that he nitpicked in the first part by pointing out that SPA rep is from killing bosses, not from grinding, and is signaling his intention to respond to the main issue at that point.
And then he sidesteps the point, but that's another issue altogether.
(I'm not a linguist, I just play one on the Internet)
Poorly phrased? A bit, but I actually like that the CMs don't use corporate-speak when they communicate (party lines, sure, but at least they generally speak in normal language, even in official posts).
I find it helpful to recognize that Blizzard believes double gating is reasonable and read their responses from that perspective. I don't AGREE with that stance, to be clear (I liked the Firelands system of raid-only rep gear being purchased with gold), but I understand that they believe it. I just wish they'd finally come out with some sort of dev blog post on the subject to clear the air, don't think I've ever seen a "this is why we think it's a good idea" post and one is long overdue. Sidestepping the thousandth double gating complaint of the week serves as little purpose as the thousandth complaint itself. We're well past the "Asked and answered" phase of the double gating discussion.
Disagree. The "but whatever" bit reads to me as "you are wrong when you complain about dailies, perhaps you don't even know that the latest rep is gained in LFR and not dailies, *but whatever*, I will explain all that to you since that's my job to deal with ignorant fools like yourself, and btw you'd be able to spend valor even without doing LFR with item upgrades - which is obviously something you don't know about either".
DeleteI am not trolling. I read enough of CMs posts, they almost all reek of this "we'll educate you" angle. Unfortunate choice of words, you say? Keep reading these blues and let's talk again in a year or two.
I understand what you are saying, it could be read a different way, but if you follow the tone, his tone, during the course of the post, it was without a doubt meant to be dismissive.
DeleteJust look at the rest of the comment, it was all dismissive. First part ignores that it is still grinding rep for gear, the last part ignores that the person can still not buy the gear, and that middle but whatever was only placed there as a transition go screw you comment.
Like I said, I can see it meaning something different and in most cases that is how I would see it, but this is the world of the internet where you can not hear the tone something is said and can only infer it based on the previous conversation and to me that is why I came to the belief I did, that it was rude.
As far as the asked and answered phase, I think we are still in it. It might have been asked 101 times but it has never been answered. As you said, not once did they post anything saying why it is this way and why they think it is a good idea.
If they did so, the discussion could go on. But this I am right, you are wrong, but whatever attitude is bad for a CM to have.
@ PvP Anon
DeleteIt is so true, the more you read them the more they sound condescending.
Not sure why either. They pretend like they are smarter and educating the person but when you read his reply like that one there he is only showing how ignorant he is. He disregarded the question completely. I am sure the poster knew that shado-pan is raid rep. I am sure the poster knew he could upgrade gear. What the poster wanted to know is why he can not buy valor gear but all he got was some jackass that thinks he knows what he is talking about giving him a but whatever.
I can see their job as being extremely stressful. I would not want to deal with the people on the forums and I do not envy their job at all. But if you are going to do it, at least try not to be a disrespectful jackass while doing it like Bashiok is.
You can't assign tone to written text you are just bringing your preconceived feeling forward. They sound more condescending in your head because you want to read it as such just like I read all your post as whiny.
DeleteBashiok, is that you?
DeleteSeriously, the only person that would read that as whiny is someone that was offended by it and the only person that would be offended by that post is the person being called out in it.
Yes, you can assign tone if you read everything the person says. If a person is coming off as harsh, that is how you read it. If a person is coming off as condescending, that is how you read it. You can tell if a person is angry, upset, happy, disinterested, or whatever. If you read a lot on the internet you learn to read between the lines. Sarcasm is the only thing that usually slips through the cracks. Otherwise, when following a person, or people, and reading what they say, you get a real feel for the tone they are saying it in.
Sure, it might not be as we perceive it but the history of posts does tend to lead itself to a pattern.
This is another of Bashiok's latest postings that makes me very uncomfortable http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8796570575#9.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to read your thoughts in this matter.
Over all that was not one of this worst posts as far as content goes. He explained it a lot further than I would have thought he has the capability to do.
DeleteHaving motes be account bound is the #1 thing I want right now in game with a healing black smith that has none and a hunter that can not use them that current has 214 spirits of harmony.
I think his force 2 professions on an account this is hyperbole and does not mean anything. Just showing how outrageous that would be.
Personally I like my profession stable. I get new gear I can gems it, enchant it, make my leg pattern, my shoulder pattern, my belt buckle, and anything else that might pop up all by myself. I do not need to bother anyone.
If anything the only issue I would have with his post is he is thinking too old school. No one used to have alts, that is how it was, but around the end of wrath everyone had 2 or 3. Even the most casual of casual players. The part is might be missing is that the game has changed and perhaps it is time for professions to as well. But at least he didn't just but whatever this person.
He also did point out that they might remove the soulbound status, just like they did with orbs before it and various other items. That is the only reason I have not traded in all my spirits for golden lotus to sell, because I am waiting for that day to come.
Funny thing is, while I have argued the same in regards to Professions, that in my opinion still not justifies why the spirits shouldn't be treated like the Motes from TBC and Wrath ie be tradeable goods.
DeleteBoA motes, like BoA in general, means that players live in their own little universe (to put it strongly), even cross-Faction. I can see why designers would be against that (though not WoW's as if they wanted Professions to be more relevant, creating evermore Vendor-bought Heirlooms isn't exactly helping)
Tradeable motes means that Motes are just another commodity people can interact over - something that incedentally players of Chinese WoW love to be able to do (yet couldn't do with the expac aimed at them and voila)
So while I can see how they don't want Motes to be BoA, I find it odd they didn't make them like the other Motes, I have a hard time seeing why it should be bad if player A could craft an item for player B by using Motes brought to him by that player B or a player C.
I would really love if they could be traded personally. I disagree with the reasoning, but I can understand it. I don't like it and I will keep asking for the ability to trade them, but at least he answered this question with a real answer. And that is what is more about. Not our feelings on motes.
Delete"What they are trying to get through his thick and apparently dense head is that they do not want to grind reputation as well as valor."
ReplyDeleteSome times people need tough answers. Right now this is the way the game is designed but just because you don't want to do something doesn't mean that it's going to change or that its open to change. I don't want to drive to the store AND pay money to buy delicious ice cream that's like Paying twice for ice cream because I have to pay money for gas. That's a silly argument and it got slapped down boo hoo.
Then he could have done what his job is, appease the masses. Say something like...
Delete"We are aware the double gating has turned off some people but we can not change it mid expansion. The designers have taken note of all the issues people have had with it and hope to never have the same situation happen again and maybe finding a more suitable middle ground."
Instead, he just insults people.
As I said, this post has nothing to do with the rep and valor issue. It has to do with one seriously inept CM that has no clue how to do his job correctly and treat the people that pay his salary.
Even if he was full of shit. Even if they have no intention of not doing it again. Even if he wanted to slap the person upside the head because he was sick and tired of hearing the same old song and dance. He should have just told them what they wanted to hear.
There is a difference between a tough answer and sounding like an jerk when you answer. He sounded like an jerk with his.
Take your reply for example.
Perfect tough answer until the end. If you put a period after "that's a silly argument" but as soon as you added boo hoo to the end you lost all respect anyone could have for your response because it when from a well thought out opinion to sounding like an jerk.
Just like your post!
Delete