Thursday, June 25, 2015

Are Mythic Dungeons Worth It?

I've been reading around on peoples take of the new mythic difficulty dungeons and the comments seem to range from the foaming at the mouth raging that they are too hard all the way to the with a quality group of players they are still too easy opinion.  I try as best I can to give things an honest assessment and not base it off just how I did it or who I did it with.

If I entered a mythic dungeon on my 650 something rogue with my limited skill playing one, or melee in general, and was with a group of like skilled players I too might end up in a foaming at the mount rage over how difficulty it was.  Same goes for how it felt when I went in with a guild group and we had no real problems at all and moved right through it I could rightfully say it was not nearly as hard as I expected it to be because it was leaps and bounds easier than launch day cataclysm heroics.

I am not a great player, never have been by any standard, but I am better at some classes than others.  I had no problem tanking one on my druid but I think I might have some issues tanking one on my warrior who is only a mere 3 item levels lower.  It all comes down to a skill factor.  I tank more on my druid than I do on my warrior.  Same goes for playing a damage dealer.  On my 683 hunter I have zero issue meeting the requirements for the dungeon but even if my rogue was in equal gear I am sure it would be hell. 

So while I am not a great player I do believe I understand, perhaps better than some of these people posting their assessments, that everything is not so black and white.  You need to consider the content in reference to who it was created for and what it was designed around.

I think the issue some people have, the ones that are having a lot of issues with it, is that they thought it would be a quick and easy way to gear up alts and that is just not true unless you are fairly good at playing said alt.  So they go in there with a skill level roughly equal to me on my rogue and have troubles and say it is over tuned.

Hopefully not sounding elitist here but no, it is not over tuned.  You are either under geared on your character, not skilled enough on your character, or have a group that has people that fit into one or the other of those categories.  Perhaps even both and if you are in a group of both under geared and under skilled players and have trouble it is not because it is over tuned, it is because those people should not even be in there.

Bottom line is if you are lacking the skill needed to pull the numbers, can't follow the mechanics and / or do not have have the gear capable of doing such, you are going to have a really bad time in mythic dungeons.

The same goes for the other way around for the people that say it is too easy.  When I tanked one on Tuesday night I was on a 672 tank with two DPS at 690, one at 675 and a healer rocking 694 gear.  The four people I went with I have been playing with all expansion, two of those four I have been raiding with for at least four years.  We all know what we are doing, we know how to work as a team, and on top of all of that we over geared it.

Saying something is "too easy" when it is supposed to be "too easy" for you is not exactly honest feedback.  Honest feedback would be it was easy for us because it was supposed to be easy for a group like that.

One thing to remember is that later in the expansion when everyone is rocking item levels in the 710s and 720s mythic dungeons will be just as faceroll as heroic are now with people in 660 gear.  It is just the way of dungeons.  Five man group content quickly becomes trivial with gear to some extent.

The issue I see with all these people complaining one way or the other is that they do not seem to understand who these dungeons are aimed at.  The people saying it is too hard for them just need to get better playing their class and the people saying it is too easy already our gear it so not one is really impressed that something they over gear is easy to them.  I'd like to believe they seemed sort of well tuned for who they are intended for.

Now the question is, who exactly are the mythic dungeons intended for and what is their expected difficulty for the people it is intended for.

I think the design would give a group of all 670 players an appropriate challenge.  If you are less than that it is just going to make it harder than it needs to be, or impossible if you are not skilled, and each bit over that is just going to make it that much easier as long as you follow mechanics.

I was tanking it at what I believe to be an appropriate item level but being backed by a very geared and skilled healer and three damage dealers all capable of pulling 60K or more on short burst type fights like you see in dungeons made it easy.  That does not mean it was easy just because it seemed like it was.

I think, my opinion only remember, that these mythic dungeons were designed with the idea of people around a 670 item level looking for upgrades.  It should work to be a suitable challenge, but not overly challenging, for people at that item level with good skills and it should be rough, really rough, for people around that item level with lesser skills.

So basically what I am saying is that I think mythic dungeons are just perfect how they are for who they are intended for.  The only real issue I see is that it was not marketed correctly to explain who they were intended for.  That is why some people think it is too hard, because they think it is meant for them, when it is not, and others think it is too easy, because they think it was meant for them, when it was not.

But that is all fine and dandy and not the real reason I decided to write this post.  As I said I was reading a lot and seeing the people complain that it was too hard or too easy but it was one comment that had nothing to do with difficulty what so ever that really grabbed my attention, as it made a lot of sense to me.  It was about the reward.

The person pointed out that a person, solo, could manage to get themselves 695 gear on T2 with much less difficulty than a mythic dungeon has to offer and much less hassle as there is no need to assemble a group.

He also pointed out that mythic dungeons are harder than normal mode HFC and after stepping foot into it for the first time last night I would have to say I wholeheartedly agree with him there.  Normal HFC drops 690-705 gear, which is better, and seemed to be easier than a mythic dungeon.

His point had nothing to do with the difficulty, no argument that it was too hard to too easy.  His point was that no matter you view mythic dungeons as or for who you think their intended audience is, the reward for doing them is out of line with other modes of gear collection and I have to say I agree with him.

What do I believe would be correct for them?  Hard to say but based on the examples he gave I think all bosses should drop 700 loot and the last boss should have a chance to drop a 715 piece.  That, in my opinion, would put it more on par with the current gearing options otherwise.

So the problem with mythic dungeons is not the difficulty or lack thereof.  It has nothing to do with blizzard not correctly identifying who the content was intended for.  It is all about the reward for doing it.  That is the main problem with mythic dungeons.  The carrot at the end of the stick looks kind of old and moldy when you compare it to other, much easier, options out there for gearing.

Do you think blizzard should rethink the rewards from doing mythic dungeons?  After seeing his comparison, I sure think so.  It should at the very least be a higher item level than the apexis crystal 695 gear in my opinion, easy or hard does not matter, only the carrot does.


  1. To anwser your question: yes

    Gwyndel - Thunderhorn EU

  2. Iirc, blizz said it was meant to be an alternate progression path. So basically for people who don't raid for whatever reason. From this pov, I think the gear is acceptable. Something for a group of 5 friends, maybe ex raiders who want a bit of a challenge in a comfortable / no pug / no investment environment. Too small of a nieche, though.

    1. Alternative to what?

      If someone chooses to level gear progression through dungeons they can't. If you only do dungeons the best item level you are going to manage is a 636 item level. Hate to say it but unless you are as skilled as the guys in method and paragon or really want to spend a ton of time wiping until you get it right, I don't believe anyone can do mythic dungeons in 636 gear.

      Although, I would love to get 4 other people that are willing to try it with me, could be fun.

      If it were to be an alternative to raiding then it is way over tuned to be honest because you can not move from heroic dungeons to mythic ones.

    2. With craft and garrison (without stepping foot even in lfr), you get around 670. Though yeah, more miss than hit on this one.

    3. Read Jaeger wrote below, he made his best in slot non raid list.

      Not one single mythic dungeon piece.

      So I stand by what I say, it is not an alternative to gearing up outside of raiding.

    4. I don't get it, I said no raiding at all. He mentions LFR pieces that need to drop in there, legendary ring that assumes at least LFR, assumed World boss drops and so on.

      My alts have around 655-660 and don't have crafted gear, BoEs and never did LFR or world bosses. So with a few crafted I'd assume they'd be 670 which I could see in some people who aren't really into farming and want to avoid large groups.
      Have two ex-raider friends in this situation who are thrilled about Mythic dungeons (don't know how long that will last).

      I actually don't believe grinding is all that popular, nor doing lfr every week. Only did each world boss only once (on my main).
      You can stick to your opinion, but don't count on what you would grind out, grinding is actually not fun to some people. And most people actually don't plan BiS pre-raid gear if they don't raid.

    5. Okay, replaced his LFR tier pieces with baleful 695 gear. Still better than mythic dungeons and easier to get.

      And really, I do not consider LFR as raiding, at least not in sense we are talking about. It can be queued for, it is easy, and anyone can do it even if they are not very good at the class they are playing. So it might be "raiding" but not when talking about gearing up without raiding. LFR does not count as raiding for the purpose.

      You are right they do not plan BiS gear if they do not raid, but they do look at item level only if they do not raid and will put on whatever has the highest item level. With that said, 695 gear is highest item level.

      I also think you are confusing "me" grinding where I would get it done in a weekend and "them" grinding where they would by two pieces a week.

      It is not as much of a grind as you think. Just doing all the dailies and killing a few rares you might stumble on means around 10K apexis crystals a day, that means 3 695 pieces a week. So yes, people are not into grinding like me, but there is absolutely no grinding involved for 3 695 pieces per week. Just time. If they have time, just doing dailies will get them gear. If they do not have time, well they need to go play another game or be happy with whatever gear they already have.

  3. From the latest forum posts it seems that WoD is the perfect rehab program for people addicted to WoW-crack. They seem to be headed for the exit in rather substantial numbers again.

    Maybe I'm wrong but this expansion is just an endles stream of blunders.

    Found a new game to play here though. Got into World Of Warships beta. It's beyond awesome. Has that little spot of "Entertainment Glue" which reels you in and hooks you. Like WoW used to have until recently.

    1. I do agree that blizzard seems to not be designing for continued play and repeatability like they used to. They seem to be creating stuff for one time use and for an MMO that goes stale fast.

      Hope the game works out well for you. Never played it but I have heard of it. Sounds like if you are interesting in that type of game it could be pretty good.

  4. I haven't done any yet, but a friend said they reminded him of early Cata Heroics since they took an hour to complete.

    I'm guessing there's no iLvL requirement? If not, there probably should be.

    The rewards don't sound adequate though. I was using AskMrRobot to figure out my BiS gear options (no raid gear or pvp gear).

    I have 3 crafted that I'll upgrade to 705/715.
    Then the rest is:
    3 Empowered Baleful 695 items.
    2pc LFR tier set (685)
    2 705s from World boss
    4 BoEs (could be another 705 from World Boss and 3 more Balefuls)
    Legendary ring

    The 685 items from the Mythic dungeon aren't worthwhile and I doubt that the chance at a 700 has a decent drop rate. They usually don't. If the last boss always dropped 700, it might be worthwhile as an alternative to Baleful gear.

    If they had guaranteed 700 items and if I could queue for them (min iLvL 670), I'd do one every week. Otherwise, I'm not really interested.

    1. I would say they are not as bad as cataclysm release dungeons, but they are comparable, sure.

      I don't think there is any item level requirement because you need to walk through the front door. There is no random grouping system so anyone in your group is someone you are okay with running with. So no level minimum is really required. This will allow people to help gear friends with fresh 100s later once they get used to them and start really over gearing them.

      Yeah, mythic dungeons are not really a different gearing path, and as you have show, even without raiding, not one single piece of it is worth getting. So the reward as an alternate gearing system is lacking.

      I don't think I would ever queue for one, even if they had a 710 item level minimum required to do them with a queue system. Most players in this game would not have a clue what CC, priority targets, interrupting, line of sight pulls, controlled pulls, etc are all about.

  5. I haven't tried them yet, but I will go and have a look and see. I thought they were a bridge for those moving from normal BRF to normal HFC, and I wonder who is actually doing them. I would do them just for curiosity but I don't NEED them. Hopefully someone out there needs them...

    1. From a blue tweet I am expecting normal BRF to move directly into normal HFC, no need to fill the gap there with some dungeons that are actually harder than normal HFC which is what they would be bridging the game to.

      I will do them on alts, if I feel comfortable with doing it on them and I will do them on my main, all of them, once each for achievement sake. Otherwise they serve no purpose after I do them once, just like the original release dungeons.

    2. With play time not being overly abundant these days, I don't think they offer anything that makes them a priority for me. I'll probably complete the new zone before I even think about touching them.

      And I'm not even sure that I'll do them then. I used to be all about the nerd points, but lately, unless an achievement rewards a pet, mount, or title, I can hardly muster the will to give a damn.

      WoD sickness.

    3. I still seek nerd points because they give me direction, so to speak. When I am sitting around with nothing to do, or better yet nothing I want to do, I'll look at what achievements I can go get and that creates content for me. So they are not really nerd points for me, they are content check points for me. Have I done [Mythic: Iron Docks]? If no, lets get too it. Woot, something to do.

      Outside of that, yes I agree. With less time to play and less than interesting rewards, I really do not think mythic has anything real to offer me either. If I had more time they might work for my alts if I can get people to carry them.

  6. So here's how you get felblight. Make a level 1. Do Kazzak. Repeat as needed. Seems very popular on our server.

    1. Wow, so cheesy, so great. lol

      How long before blizzard changes it to make it impossible for anyone under 100 to be summoned there?

  7. Personally, sounds a lot like when Blizzard introduced the ICC dungeons. Those were hard because people planned to faceroll them like they had before. Now comes a dungeon that requires a bit of planning.

    I've been spending all my time in 6.2 trying to get flying completed, and I had forgotten mythics were even introduced. Maybe this weekend, I'll have a moment to run my 660 warlock through the grinder. I'll let you know how it goes..

    1. I can see these mythic dungeons being pretty face roll soon enough with people getting raid gear soon. However I think the difference is there are still a lot of things in them, off trash mostly, that can one shot people if not interrupted. So even if they start becoming face roll easy, there will always need to be at least one person on the ball or deaths will happen.

      You have to hand assemble a group for them. Can't queue for them. So if you find a group willing to work as a team you should do fine. You get a group with a tank that thinks he is superman and some gogogo dps and you could be in trouble. Good luck.

  8. They announced that next week, the chance of Mythic dungeon loot of being warforged to 705 will be tripled, so any drop will have a much higher chance of being 705. We'll have to see what the chance is though. If it was 1%, then 3X doesn't do anything....

    1. Yeah, triple near 0 is still near 0. So that does not mean a hell of a lot. But if getting 705s is more likely then I could see running them. I could use 705s in nearly all slots.

    2. Did 4 of them tonight, out of all the loot that dropped there was about 1 warforged piece per instance. Pretty good in my opinion.

    3. It is better now that they upped the chance of them dropping and increased the item level. I am still having a hard time finding groups for them on anything other than my tank.