Unless something changed that I have not noticed the new patch will land with no new valor gear from vendors. You would think that being I raid that would not worry me too much but it does. As it stands, this tier is ended soon and I have won a total of 2 pieces from the raid. Admittedly they were two powerful pieces. I have the top two normal mode hunter trinkets, both thunderforged. Can't really complain about that can I?
But maybe I can. The tier is ending and those are the only two pieces I have won in the raid. The only time I ever saw a hunter ranged weapon even drop was when I was tanking and even that it was only once. I've played the role of the good prepared raider by getting my coins for my bonus rolls and using them on the bosses that dropped the best pieces for me, specifically weapon bosses, and I still come up empty.
It makes me wonder, where would I be without valor gear? I would have no 522 neck, no 522 ring, no 522 wrists, no 522 waist, and no 522 off set piece (hands, chest or legs). I am currently using the 522 legs as my offset piece because nalak, despite killing him every week since he first appeared, has not dropped the legs for me. I was at least lucky enough to get the gloves off him however. But between nalak and oon that is the only 522 piece I would have seen outside of the raid if it were not for valor. Maybe I could have purchased the head or boots as craftables, but when comparing to what things are going to be like that is not a fair comparison as there will be no new craftable patterns that will be of current raid gear level the next patch either.
So no valor gear and no craftable gear of raid level next patch means little old me is basically left ungeared because of bad luck. As it stands I am the only person on my raid team that sims under 200K, and that is a miserable 160K.
As someone said to me in vent yesterday, what I lack in gear I make up for in skill. There have been a few, very few, times where I beat all of those 4 people that sim higher than me. I am usually pretty close, but as they all get their thunderforged weapons and thunderforged offset gear and 522 tier pieces, I am being left behind. I am becoming the weak link no matter what level of skill I play at. When we get to the point where someone can completely screw up, like happened to someone the other day, they can still end up 5K or 10K ahead of me because of gear alone.
All I need is for a few agility pieces to drop, a few mail pieces to drop, and even if I did spend half the tier on another character I still have enough kills under my belt that I should have won at least a few pieces here and there. Even the two trinkets I won were luck. One was on a coin roll and the other was passed to me because they felt bad I had yet to win a piece all tier.
When we enter the next raid I am the weak link from the damage dealer department and my skill, no matter how hard I try, just can not compensate for the gear any longer. I always went out of my way to do everything I could to offset my lack of luck. I cap valor asap so I can get the valor gear, I spend like gold is going out of style for whatever crafted items there are or BoEs that might appear on the market. So I might not win gear but I am never left too far behind because of valor.
I am currently at a 530 item level. I got my legendary cloak without any help from raid drops, but that was more a skill thing than a gear thing anyway. Although you hear stories of people blowing through it like it was nothing, they all had at least a 530 before they did the fight. I didn't even have a 530 after it when I put the cape on. So I needed to make up for gear with execution. It was not a hard fight, but it was designed that you do not need a high item level to do it if you were lacking. You could skill it. You could earn it.
But that is what I am talking about. I was rewarded for the effort I put into it. What I could not win in the raid I made sure to get outside of it. Be it valor gear, crafted gear or quest line gear.
What am I to do next expansion with my luck? There is no valor gear, there is no crafted gear at current raid level, there is no quest line to get me anything more than an augmentation to something I already have. Without raid drops I will be nowhere. I will get nowhere. I will fall even further behind the rest of my raid team thanks to my incredibly bad luck.
I will become a liability to our progress the next patch because I will always be a dollar short and a day late to everything we do because I can not get gear except to wait for the random gods to smile on me. And they won't. Remember, we are talking a person that just got the mount from UP after over 1000 attempts on multiple characters over the course of years. While I might have moments of luck here and there, over all, I am rather luckless.
I am really worried about a world without valor gear. I am worried because as the raid leader if I want to put my best team forward next patch, because of gear, I would have to sit myself. In the grand scheme of things, if I am this behind (simming 40K below the others) this tier with valor gear, how far behind am I going to be when everyone in the raid is in 553 gear except me who will still be rocking my 530 item level because there is no valor gear?
I could grab a 535 or two off the island, but that too is luck based so I won't count on it. I could grab some 545 craftable gear, but that will still be behind current level gear and I could never justify spending top dollar on lesser gear but I most likely will be forced to as it will be my only option and I hate that. I will still do what I always do, I will try as hard as I can to make up for my lack of luck. The difference is, no matter how hard I try, without raid drops I will be hurting my raid team and I just can not do that.
I have a feeling this might be the end of the line for me because of my bad luck. I love to raid, but if I am going to hurt my team by being woefully undergeared and there is nothing I can do about it except wait for luck to throw me a bone I might just have to stop raiding all together. And I don't think I would continue playing at all for very long if I can not do what I enjoy doing, and that is raiding with my team. So yes, I am really worried about a world without valor gear. For people like me, I needed to it at least attempt to keep up with everyone else. Thanks to luck, or lack thereof, it looks like my days raiding might very well be drawing to a close. Will my subscription follow?.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIt bothers me because I want to be able to contribute a meaningful percentage of the damage when I am on my hunter as that is the role I am in.
DeleteIf I do not have any way to get gear, because nothing mail agility ever drops, I will effectively be holding the guild back as we move along.
Why would any person that raids and actually cares about their performance purposefully hold a group back?
At least when not getting drops there was something for me to get to at least hold me over while I waited for drops that never came. Now that option is no longer there and unless my luck changes I will be raiding the next tier in last tiers gear.
Which basically means, I won't be raiding at all because I refuse to hold my group back.
And being I like to raid, that is why it bothers me.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteBecause there should be some control over some of it. That is what valor gear was, control over bad luck.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteYou must admit silencing shot is the best shot on their tier. By a long shot.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteBinding shot is going there.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteYes. It used to be a talent, level 15 I believe. Then it was removed and given to MM only. Then it was removed from MM and put in as a replacement talent for silencing shot which was being given to MM only.
DeleteThey have bounced the shot around a lot. I used it some, it looks okay and has its uses, but over all it is really just another personal utility item in the hunter tool kit. And we have one huge tool hit to begin with.
In the end it went back to that line of skills because the other 2 along side SS were garbage for the top end hunters. Now, with it there, they are all garbage.
Flex! The mode for the semi-skilled and the loot-unlucky.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, though, if you're not getting loot, chances are someone else is. The only issue is if you're sharding a ton of gear. Maybe you are at this point but I doubt you were until recently. As long as someone is getting upgrades then there's no problem with a stable group.
Having said that, if you're at i530 and performing appropriately and the rest are generally beating you... sheesh, you shouldn't be having ANY issues with normal-mode fights. You couldn't possibly be holding anything back. At that gear level you should be able to slot in with a heroic group and not hold THEM back.
And yes, that's with current-tier VP gear. I'm not sure how things will shake out next tier. I *hate* the idea that crafted gear will be sub-raid gear (crafted gear only works if it's BETTER than raid gear &/or is relatively cheap to make which it never is for epic gear) but I do like the Island i535 gear, that'll be a lot more viable than the Barrens i489 gear and I even thought that was a pretty good idea (would have been better if the Jujus were BoA, though).
Just bear in mind that this will be the last raid, in 5.4 you won't be gearing up for anything... you'll end up with enough gear to finish the tier. You won't need the equivalent of i530 gear, in other words.
The lack of VP gear is curious, though. I have to think there'll be some other way to gear up implemented but if there is I'm not hearing it.
Unlucky is unlucky. Still won't win on flex unless I get lucky. Now I just have three modes each week to not win anything in.
DeleteYes, the others in the guild are all geared. Some don't even need anything else out of normal. But that does not change the fact that I feel as if I end up holding back the group if I can not keep up.
Sure I can be happy they got something but that only goes so far. How can I lead a raid group when I am the worst person in it thanks to gear?
This tier is not want I am talking about. We still have a tank and two healers that are way behind do to their own fault, in the 515-520 range. But we are fine for normals and they are not a problem, DPS wise at least. When I am the lowest DPS and I am pulling 140K or so on most non buff fights we are way over powering normals.
What I am talking about is what if I get no gear for the next tier and everyone starts moving into the 250-300 range and I am still sitting at 140K because of gear? Then I will be holding them back.
I am not asking for a ton of valor gear, but just a few things here and there, even small pieces like rings, waist, wrists, neck and back would be nice.
I don't like the idea there is nothing for me except to hope for luck. Either get crappy flex gear, or worse LFR gear or super lucky world boss gear, which is up to 559 actually, I will still be left behind the 8 ball as long as luck is involved in the gearing process.
I would just like to see luck be removed as a factor for gear. Change it to every 5 times you kill a boss you pick one thing off the loot table. I would be content with that.
Yeah, flex won't help you get gear but it'll make your iLvl a bit less critical. :) I was half-joking with that part, though.
DeleteAnd yeah, I sympathize, I've gotten only a few significant upgrades out of ToT normal and 2 of the 3 slots I have left are both covered by Council, a boss I've been killing and using a token on weekly for 4+ months and hasn't dropped EITHER of the 2 items I need (there are only 3 items on his loot table, the 3rd has dropped about 5 times... has been useable each time, at least, it's a trinket, but STILL). Half my gear is VP, half is more or less equivalent to VP. I have the i522 tier pants from Nalak, not from Ji-Kun. I get it.
I look at it along the lines of when I fill in with another raid, I'll only take loot if none of their regulars needs it for main spec. In exchange, I expect they'll factor that in to bringing me back, my dps won't change but I've increased their RAID dps by passing the loot to a regular. If a raid doesn't do that I won't help them out. There's a synergy there that most raid leaders I've dealt with understand and even appreciate. Same thing with your group... as long as someone gets loot that they can use, you aren't holding the group back. If you had more loot that means others would have less loot, the overall effect on the raid wouldn't change. Plus, that makes it easier for you to run an alt than it would otherwise, they're sacrificing less dps that way. If I was a RL/LM in a raid that had issues bringing the same 10 every week, I'd probably give loot first to those who DON'T have alts they'd be willing to bring in, I'd intentionally gimp those who might be doing some swapping, either to alts or to alt specs. Nothing against those players but you want to maximize your chances of success.
This is totally different from a situation like when someone gets all their required gear and then once they're done with that they flip to an alt. That person would never get loot on their new toon unless loot was about to be sharded (I'd give loot to off-spec before that person) and I'd probably charge them for the lost shard. I have no problem with that kind of change when it won't hold the group back progression-wise but it comes at a cost.
Yeah, I get that, I tried to be clear on the context. But again, as long as bosses are dying and someone's getting gear, it doesn't MATTER that they're at 250K and you're at 150K vs them at 230K and you at 250K. Overall raid damage will be the same either way. The only way it matters is if there are fights that have a PERSONAL dps requirement (Elegon is really the only example I can think of off-hand) where everyone needs to have roughly the same, high enough gear level, or if your health falls back enough that you're being killed by unavoidable mechanics that everyone else is surviving (Heroic Jin'rokh during the transition phases is a decent example of this, you're a lot more likely to lose someone with 100K less health). Those fights are rare, though, so it shouldn't actually be an issue for your raid, especially if you're the RL.
Plus, there won't be NO gear available... and what you do get can be upgraded, apparently. Ultimately, what will matter is if you can get a weapon. If you can get a weapon, nothing else matters.
And yeah, I'd love a bit less RNG in the gearing process, especially at the high end and especially when dealing with multiple (or a ton of) toons. Some day, perhaps. Hell, I'd be okay with a chance that the bonus tokens don't actually get you a bonus roll, what they do is allow you to get a higher %age of getting a particular item IF one drops. So, technically lower odds overall of getting SOMETHING but if something drops, what you want has a better chance of showing up. That might be an interesting bonus mechanic and way more optional in the early days when all gear is good gear.
It a way that "alt" thing is what hit me. Sure we were late to finish the raid so that meant a lot less kills over all, but I was forced to tank a great deal and that meant I lost out on loot. I figured, better to tank and get going than not tank and not raid. As raid leader I make that sacrifice for the group. My main does not have a kill on the 10th or 11th boss as I tank those. So that hurts too as 3 of the 4 things I can use in there drop off those bosses.
DeleteSo maybe it is not all about bad luck but a little "doing it to myself". I could easily say, I am not tanking because I need stuff. But I look at it like you said. If I tank we down things and everyone else gets better which in turn makes me better and takes some of the pressure off of my because I do not have the 3 things off those 2 bosses.
I agree, in the end as long as I can get a new weapon I might be able to catch up a little.
I am really just worried that without drops I won't be pulling my own weight. And as the raid leader it makes that ten times worse.
Oft times it is said, the raid leader should be the best player on the team. Won't happen with mine because I have a #1 in the world type healer and melee damage dealer, but I should be at least 3 and with lesser gear that just will never be possible. If I do absolutely perfect, I will still be dead last by a long shot.
It is the luck thing that worries me. I want that safety net back, the one that protected me from my own bad luck.
I don't think I've ever had a regular run (or even an occasional fill-in) where the RL is the best player. Usually they're dealing with things that the rest of us aren't (watching for issues, probably calling out mechanics as necessary, calling for cooldowns, etc) so if they're also the top performer it probably isn't saying much for the rest of the raid.
DeleteBut yeah, don't stress the loot until/unless it becomes an issue. I doubt it will, especially if you run Flex. LFR-level gear should be plenty for Flex raiding in capable hands.
I just want to get a couple things clarified. So valor in 5.4 will just upgrade any gear that we currently have or get from the Timeless Isle?
ReplyDeleteAnd that gear that is on the Isle is 496 and 535 ilevel?
Thanks!
Yes, valor will be for upgrades only.
DeleteThe gear on the island is 496. However, if you do not use the token to turn it into a 496 piece of gear and you get the upgrade token you can upgrade the 496 to a 535.
The celestials will give 553 gear and the new legendary only world boss will give 559.
"Sure I can be happy they got something but that only goes so far. How can I lead a raid group when I am the worst person in it thanks to gear?"
ReplyDeleteThat happens all the time to me - and I'm speaking as the GM of a 13/13H guild. Unless tons of loot is being wasted, stop worrying about the gear - if it's staying within the raid then the raid is improving which is what counts.
I'm not sure what your raid composition is but perhaps that's a problem. On top of that, you can be smart about raid drops - if you and a warrior tank have 496 legs and 522 tank legs drop, the warrior obviously gets it. But if a Protector leg token then drops, you should get it before the warrior.
Outside of bracer/belt/boots/weapon, every other piece of gear overlaps with a ton of people (either agility gear or Protector tokens).
If anything, I think Valor gear causes a bunch of issues in the current environment: http://balkothsword.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-flexible-raid-item-level-conundrum.html
You are basically a full raid tier above me. We might give some heroics a try this week or next, but never got around to it being we basically lost a total of 8 weeks to horridon and tortos. No other boss in there took more than one night and a few no more than 1 try.
DeleteI am also partly at fault because the few time something that I "could" use dropped I passed on it because I felt the raid would be better off with someone else having it because I split time between my hunter and tank do to necessity.
I am going to head over there and read that.
"I am also partly at fault because the few time something that I "could" use dropped I passed on it because I felt the raid would be better off with someone else having it because I split time between my hunter and tank do to necessity."
DeleteWell, I don't know what your armory is, but if you've kept up on Valor on your hunter you should have the following at this point:
530 Neck
530 Shoulders
608 Cloak
530 Chest
530 Bracers
530 Gloves
530 Belt
530 Legs
530 Ring
530 Trinket
In addition, you could have the following from Heroic Scenarios (have you done one every day?):
524 Helm
524 Boots
524 Ring
524 Weapon
The only item you've be missing is a trinket - let's assume you have the 496 Shieldwall one since that's guaranteed (though Elegon/Lei Shi/Darkmoon/Shado-Pan trinkets might be better).
That gives us (9 * 530 + 608 + 4 * 524 + 504)/15 = 531.87 ilvl. That's the ilvl you should be at without winning a single raid drop (just valor purchases and Heroic Scenario drops).
"Oft times it is said, the raid leader should be the best player on the team."
ReplyDeleteI disagree entirely. I also know for a fact that I am definitely not the best player on my team - at best second place, and at times in the past there was no way I was above fourth place.
What matters is that you contribute effectively while raid leading. One of the people who used to be in my raid (had to take a break for RL reasons) who outskills me used to run a 25H raiding guild - and he was HAPPY to not have to raid lead since it meant he could do more DPS. He liked not having to worry about the whole raid and watch all the cooldowns and such.
Hell, I play a shadow priest - which means I'm often last or close to it on the damage meter.
If you can actually find me quotes from heroic raid leaders who actually say the raid leader has to be the best player on the team, I'll figure out some suitable reward to give you (maybe some rare pet if I have it and you want it). But again, speaking as a raid leader of a 13/13H guild on two nights a week, I strongly disagree with that statement.
Hell, even Google disagrees: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/business/13hire.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
"For much of its 13-year history, particularly the early years, Google has taken a pretty simple approach to management: Leave people alone. Let the engineers do their stuff. If they become stuck, they’ll ask their bosses, whose deep technical expertise propelled them into management in the first place.
But Mr. Bock’s group found that technical expertise — the ability, say, to write computer code in your sleep — ranked dead last among Google’s big eight. What employees valued most were even-keeled bosses who made time for one-on-one meetings, who helped people puzzle through problems by asking questions, not dictating answers, and who took an interest in employees’ lives and careers.
“In the Google context, we’d always believed that to be a manager, particularly on the engineering side, you need to be as deep or deeper a technical expert than the people who work for you,” Mr. Bock says. “It turns out that that’s absolutely the least important thing. It’s important, but pales in comparison. Much more important is just making that connection and being accessible.”"
If you're a competent player, you can easily raid lead. People want a leader and organizer more than they want a "raid leader" who can pull 5% more damage.
I can relate to that not having to worry about everyone thing. I am sure it effects my game play but I try to limit the impact by over preparing sometimes. Doesn't always help.
DeleteI will accept your word for it as you are far more progressed than I. Having done more give you a in the position to see it in a perspective I couldn't.
What you are saying sounds like what I am often told by the raiders. They always say they appreciate all the work I do because it allows them to do what they do without ever needing to sweat the little stuff.
Like if someone asks, will dispersion work on this, I know the answer even if I do not play a shadow priest.
Or on so many first kills I changed the strat mid fight and we got the kill. The people trust me to lead them to a kill and even if they are not the caliber of player like you have in your group I am very proud of them. It does feel good knowing that a measure of any success we might have is based on them doing what I tell them to do.
Now, to break into that next level. I think we just need another tank and another healer (and me to catch up in gear) and we could easily be 13/13 instead of 12/12 and not even trying heroics.
"I am sure it effects my game play but I try to limit the impact by over preparing sometimes. Doesn't always help."
DeleteIt always impacts your gameplay even when you think it doesn't, I promise :P
But believe what your raiders are saying. Think of it this way - even if they're lying then they're lying because they still want you to raid lead for them. So that says something.
"I think we just need another tank and another healer (and me to catch up in gear) and we could easily be 13/13 instead of 12/12 and not even trying heroics."
Are you constantly recruiting? What is the niche of your guild - you need to be able to say "You should join our guild versus the other 383249219 similar guilds because BLANK."
And how far behind are you on gear - like I mentioned above you should be at 531+ ilvl even without a single raid drop.
I was around 520 when we started heroic modes. Catch up in gear for what?
Delete@Balkoth The only piece of gear I want is the weapon as everyone else had normal mode ones and I still have an LFR one. I do fine without it, more than ample to get the job done.
DeleteJust stuck when you are sometimes 20K behind everyone else. I am not used to being in that position.
We are always recruiting. But we are on a smaller server. It took us 3 months to fill a tank slot. Just to get an idea how bad it is sometimes. We need two other guilds to fold to find one decent tank between them.
What we offer is a relaxed pace that usually still sees progressions though normals, even if rarely into heroics. We are also the only 25 man guild on the server. We also have, most likely, three of the most skilled players on the server that are always willing to teach and help others. Like I said many times, we play it casual.
I would like to see my main 10 progress further however. I know they can do it. But it is a big jump for a casual guild and it could easily alienate the fledgling 25 man team.
@James
You have a guild with more skilled players that are into progression than my group. Could we have done heroics at 520? Maybe. Would they be easier in 530 because we are not as skilled as your group? Absolutely.
"We are always recruiting. But we are on a smaller server. It took us 3 months to fill a tank slot. Just to get an idea how bad it is sometimes. We need two other guilds to fold to find one decent tank between them."
DeleteYou need to be recruiting off-server. Always. You cannot simply recruit on your own server.
"Could we have done heroics at 520? Maybe. Would they be easier in 530 because we are not as skilled as your group? Absolutely."
There are no DPS or healing checks for the following bosses:
Jin'rohk
Horridon
Tortos
Megaera
Ji-Kun
Iron Qon
If you can kill normal Lei Shen, the rest is just practice and execution on those bosses - extra gear won't help all that much.
Also, if you look at my math above, everyone on your team SHOULD BE 530+ ilvl at this point - they can get that without a single drop from normal modes.
We are not very progressed so recruiting off server is really hard. Lets look back a few months, when we were on the forth boss when most guilds where starting heroics (or finished with them). What decent player would want to pay for a server transfer to do normal modes?
DeleteWhen you are doing better you can recruit off server. When you are not you can't. Sure, we have had some additions over the years from off server, but we do not stress that because we really do not have anything to offer other than some decent people to be around.
The "real raiders" are all 530, and that is all the damage dealers, one tank and one healer. We still have 2 healers and a tank that are behind the curve.
Personally I am with you on that. There is absolutely no reason what so ever that anyone that considers themselves a raider would not have at least a 528 item level minimum right now.
"What decent player would want to pay for a server transfer to do normal modes?"
DeleteYou'd be surprised - there are a lot of people on REALLY backwater servers looking for guilds. No, you're not going to get amazing players, but you can get decent ones who are willing to learn and improve.
Horridon was both, depending on what pov you looked at. Adds needed to die fast enough. This is why people went for 2 healers instead of one and often one had to be disc to lay some damage on Horridon himself. For us, two healers didn't cut it, so we used 3, making the dps check increase.
DeleteMegaera was a bit of both, again. Adds needed to die fast. Heads needed to die fast. You couldn't just let the boss breathe 60 times on the tank, which effectively made it a dps check. We used one tank - you don't use one tank because there's no dps / healer check. And healing was hard on rampages with no off-healing from hybrid classes.
@Balkoth
DeleteI guess that is true because we do have a fair deal of players that had alts on my server that switched their main over to join our 25 when we started doing 25s. So maybe recruiting for it might work. We did get lucky to get one amazing player out of it. Used to be in a top guild but got tired of that raiding environment and wanted to step back. She has really helped out crew big time.
@James
My guild used three for horridon as well. We were lucky in a way as we had decent damage dealers so it was more an issue of getting into kill priority and moving from crap. However, even with 3 healers it always seemed to be the healing that held us back there, not the DPS. Again, the three shaman issue. It was brutal on that fight.
How would you one tank it Meg? I mean I've done it when a tank went down, but it really puts a hurting on you. I guess it would be a gear thing. My tank is only 518 and two heads rip me apart if we do not down it before the 3rd breath.
"Horridon was both, depending on what pov you looked at. Adds needed to die fast enough."
Delete99% of that was focus - if you had enough DPS for Lei Shen, you had enough DPS for Horridon. But you needed to focus down the priority adds and not wildly AoE.
I'm not saying there is no DPS check. I'm saying it's not worse than Lei Shen.
"Megaera was a bit of both, again. Adds needed to die fast. Heads needed to die fast."
Even on our first kill, we were having to STOP DPS to avoid killing the heads too fast. While two tanking it. You were doing B/R/P/B/R/P/B?
We really have to twiddle our thumbs now (or completely redo the healing cooldowns).
"My guild used three for horridon as well."
We're talking about Heroic Horridon, Grumpy ;)
"How would you one tank it Meg?"
It's really not needed and makes it far more difficult than it should.
Sorry, I'm stuck as the normal guy here in the heroic conversation. But at least I can get some hints. ;)
DeleteMy current gear:
ReplyDeleteValor gear: 5
LFR drops: 3
Rep gear: 1
Crafted gear: 1
Legendary quest: 1
Nalak drops: 2
Raid drops: 1 (1 other that I'm not using)
Thunderforged raid drops: 1
531 iLvL
Yeah... no valor gear is going to seriously suck... That's my top source of gear since I'm not on an active raid team.
"Yeah... no valor gear is going to seriously suck... That's my top source of gear since I'm not on an active raid team."
DeleteThat's the whole problem. If you're not on an active raid team, your items should be coming from LFR (potentially Flex in 5.4).
Also, where's the Heroic Scenario items in that list? 516s for a lot of slots.
My 3 lfr pieces I have are two Tier pieces and a weapon. The 516s don't beat tier and getting a good itemized weapon from a scenario is far too much RNG to grind them out just for that, so there was no good reason to do the H scenarios other than valor.
DeleteHardly anyone does them on my server anyway so getting a group is just annoying. I've only done a couple of heroic scenarios as a result.
There's practically no raiding community on my server anymore, so this is the best I can do. According to WoWProgress, I'm the 7th best geared hunter and 56th overall on my realm. Which is pathetic since I'm only 3/12. It seems that raiders on my realm are too lazy to grind valor and upgrade their gear or buy valor pieces to fill in the slots where they haven't gotten raid drops. Also, it seems that Thunderforged items are really rare (10 mans only on my realm); probably because raiders on my realm are too lazy to get their coins for extra rolls. Furthermore, a lot of raiders on my realm still don't have the 608 cloak from the legendary quest line, which also means they are lazy.
Sure, I wasn't on an active raid team, but I worked my ass off to get the gear that I have.
This is how I (and many others) play the game. I want to be as fully geared as I possibly can so that I can jump into a raid team whenever a spot is open. I've done that for the last three expansions that I've played (except for DS, I pugged into a heroic raid team and got a permanent spot til the team fell apart in Mists, so I had almost full heroic gear by the end of Cata).
Personally, I feel that all gear should be purchased/crafted and available to anyone who puts in the effort to get it. Active raiders should have an easier time getting the currency/mats just by raiding, but that's the only advantage I think they should have when it comes to gear.
The whole idea of loot dropping off mobs/bosses seems silly to me on many levels (loot pinatas! how does a giant turtle (or whatever) drop a sword, boots, and a ring? did it swallow them or something?), but that's how most games work.
Looking forward to Connected Realms and the xrealm options for Flex but not looking forward to having no purchasable/craftable gear.
"My 3 lfr pieces I have are two Tier pieces and a weapon. The 516s don't beat tier and getting a good itemized weapon from a scenario is far too much RNG to grind them out just for that, so there was no good reason to do the H scenarios other than valor."
DeleteIn other words, you wouldn't even use valor gear for the two tier slots.
And H Scenarios take 10-15 minutes a day and give amazing valor - how would you rather earn valor? Doing something that doesn't have a chance to give you a huge upgrade?
"Hardly anyone does them on my server anyway so getting a group is just annoying. I've only done a couple of heroic scenarios as a result."
So do them cross-server. You only need three people - you seriously can't go "LFM Heroic Scenario" in Trade or contact a friend on another server and have them ask?
"Sure, I wasn't on an active raid team, but I worked my ass off to get the gear that I have."
While I don't know what your armory is, I'm going to guess and say "No, you haven't" because you haven't been doing a Heroic Scenario each day.
"I want to be as fully geared as I possibly can so that I can jump into a raid team whenever a spot is open."
There are PLENTY of spots open. Maybe not on your realm, so just transfer. Why spend $15 a month being miserable? Or wait for Connected Realms at this point, I guess.
"Active raiders should have an easier time getting the currency/mats just by raiding, but that's the only advantage I think they should have when it comes to gear."
So something like all gear from ToT is 522 but only heroic raiders can expect to get full 522s by the next patch? Normal raiders will get 50% 522s (and the rest 496s) and LFR players will get 25% 522s?
Sounds like a lot of people in LFR wouldn't like the idea of only getting 4 items during an entire tier.
"In other words, you wouldn't even use valor gear for the two tier slots."
DeleteBecause Blizz makes set bonuses really powerful. I'd have to be an idiot to buy valor pieces for those items if I had already won them some other way. Heck, I've got a 522 normal chest in my bank that I'm not using so that I could get a 4pc set using LFR items. That doesn't mean that valor gear is useless. Valor gear is for filling in for bad RNG and for catching up or keeping alts geared and as a gearing path for casual players. Currencies for raiding gear have been in the game for years to serve those purposes: currently valor, emblems before that, etc.
"While I don't know what your armory is, I'm going to guess and say "No, you haven't" because you haven't been doing a Heroic Scenario each day."
The only useful thing I could get from a heroic scenario is a slightly better weapon as already mentioned. I have not needed valor points for weeks and I haven't done LFR for weeks since I finished the legendary quest. I reached my gearing cap weeks ago. The only place I can get more meaningful gear is by raiding. My iLvL is 531. Even if I had a 524 weapon, it'd only be 532. Apparently that's where normal raiders on my realm are and it's the end of the tier, so that's fine. The topic of discussion is next patch where we won't have valor gear which means that alts/part-time raiders will have no catch up mechanism anymore.
"So something like all gear from ToT is 522 but only heroic raiders can expect to get full 522s by the next patch? Normal raiders will get 50% 522s (and the rest 496s) and LFR players will get 25% 522s?"
I have no idea where you came up with that. I never said there should only be one level of gear or that gearing should be several times slower than it currently is.
I'm suggesting something like the PvP gearing model rather than the RNG-based PvE model. There are many ways to do that, several of which have been discussed in articles and/or comments on Grumpy's blog already so I won't reiterate them here.
"Why spend $15 a month being miserable? Or wait for Connected Realms at this point, I guess."
I am waiting for Connected Realms as I already stated. However, if that isn't all they've made it up to be; I will be another one of the many lost subscribers. And you may say "good riddance", but it's the casual players that have kept this game alive, not the raiders (they have and always will be a small minority of the player-base).
@Balkoth
DeleteIn his defense, I was looking for the gun for a while being it was a minor upgrade from the LFR one, or could be. I wanted to test it as I have read different reports.
I did it every day for a while and finally gave up. I got a total of 1 516 piece ever and it was for something I had a 522.
Heroic scenarios are all about luck and being the loot table is huge it really is not a reliable source for gearing.
@Jaeger
Some reports show the 516 gun as a minor upgrade, 1K, but others show it as a loss. I always wanted to try it myself just to see but never had any luck with it either.
My gear is similar to yours make up use. I think I have one more LFR piece because I have only got one of the pieces from nalak. But that is the 530 I have to the 531 you have difference most likely. My one crafted piece is the boots. They were well worth it.
Yeah, I had seen similar things about the 516 weapons, and like you, I did HS for a while but had little luck with them. Since it was questionable if the weapon was truly an upgrade or not, I just gave up.
DeleteI did one yesterday though since I'm stockpiling some valor for the patch just in case. Only got gold and didn't get the bonus (was in a pug with a tank and a healer so we missed the timer by about 30-45 seconds...).
With a tank and a healer that is not so bad only missing the timer by that. I usually go the 3 DPS set up and we blow though them easily. With enough damage there is no need for a tank of a healer. Even more so if you are a hunter. ;)
Delete"Because Blizz makes set bonuses really powerful. I'd have to be an idiot to buy valor pieces for those items if I had already won them some other way"
DeleteSure - but my point is that removing valor gear wouldn't have made a difference for those pieces (or other pieces from LFR).
"The topic of discussion is next patch where we won't have valor gear which means that alts/part-time raiders will have no catch up mechanism anymore."
Valor isn't a catch up mechanism, it was meant to provide a guaranteed source of character power as the tier progressed. Justice or its equivalent server as a catch up mechanism.
So this tier, if you didn't have valor gear, you'd still be able to get 516s from H Scens or 502s from LFR for those valor slots - which means you might be 4-5 ilvls lower at most. Which is still 526+ ilvl without raiding very much, apparently.
I guess I don't get your complaint.
"I have no idea where you came up with that. I never said there should only be one level of gear or that gearing should be several times slower than it currently is."
You said every piece of gear should be craftable and that heroic raiders should get access to the crafting material faster than normal raiders which is faster than LFR.
Give me a 2-3 sentence description of what your system would entail for gearing rates. And keep in mind that the point of gear in PvE encounters is to slowly nerf them over time.
"However, if that isn't all they've made it up to be; I will be another one of the many lost subscribers."
Why? You're spending $180 a year and who knows how many hours on WoW, but you're unwilling to spend $25 to turn your entire experience around? Why? That's like three hours of work at minimum wage.
"In his defense, I was looking for the gun for a while being it was a minor upgrade from the LFR one, or could be. I wanted to test it as I have read different reports."
It's like a 3000 DPS upgrade for casters. Maybe it's somehow different for hunters or something, but a 16 ilvl upgrade (though you lose out on a socket) is more than the difference from a normal to heroic weapon. Honestly curious how it could be worse.
"I did it every day for a while and finally gave up. I got a total of 1 516 piece ever and it was for something I had a 522."
You're guaranteed one 516 the very first time you do one with the quest. I regularly get a epic - usually at least once a week. It's good valor, extremely fast, and is more likely to give an upgrade than LFR.
"Give me a 2-3 sentence description of what your system would entail for gearing rates. And keep in mind that the point of gear in PvE encounters is to slowly nerf them over time."
DeleteThe gearing rates could be similar to what they are now, just currency based instead of RNG based. Many people like working toward a goal in measurable steps, whereas praying to the RNG gods can be very frustrating. The model works well for PvP, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for PvE. However, I don't expect Blizzard to ever make such a change; they seem very set in their "roll of the dice" methods.
"Why? You're spending $180 a year and who knows how many hours on WoW, but you're unwilling to spend $25 to turn your entire experience around? Why? That's like three hours of work at minimum wage."
Firstly, I have no idea which server to go to. The group of people that I've been playing with for the last couple years doesn't exist anymore, so I would have to find a new server where I don't know anyone. Secondly, s server xfer for me would cost at least $60 since I'd need to bring a guild bank over (I'm not going to throw away over 1M gold). The main thing is that I don't have a definite server to switch to and am not interested in bouncing around several times to find a good realm/guild. I'd potentially rather find a different game to play.
"It's like a 3000 DPS upgrade for casters. Maybe it's somehow different for hunters or something, but a 16 ilvl upgrade (though you lose out on a socket) is more than the difference from a normal to heroic weapon. Honestly curious how it could be worse."
It appears to be 1-2k for hunters depending on the itemization of the weapon. Agility is our main stat by far (more than double the secondary stats), so the lack of sockets hurts a lot. For example, the upgraded HS weapon has 1588 agi, but the upgraded LFR gun with both sockets has 1774. The other HS gear are poorly itemized for hunters as well, so they aren't that compelling as upgrades.
"You're guaranteed one 516 the very first time you do one with the quest. I regularly get a epic - usually at least once a week. It's good valor, extremely fast, and is more likely to give an upgrade than LFR."
Like Grumpy, the guaranteed 516 I got was useless because I already had a 522 for that slot and I've gotten nothing else from HS. LFR served multiple purposes: gear (up to a point), ToT rep to unlock valor gear, and legendary quest items (and valor, but never did LFR specifically for valor). Once all those reasons were exhausted, I ended up with only a weapon that could be replaced by a lucky HS drop and no need for valor anymore (everything had been purchased and fully upgraded by then).
"The gearing rates could be similar to what they are now, just currency based instead of RNG based."
DeleteEr, you said...
"Personally, I feel that all gear should be purchased/crafted and available to anyone who puts in the effort to get it. Active raiders should have an easier time getting the currency/mats just by raiding, but that's the only advantage I think they should have when it comes to gear."
which seems to indicate people in LFR should be able to get the same gear as people in Heroic raids, just as a faster rate. Saying "Heroic bosses should drop Legendary Points to buy heroic gear while Valor buys normal gear" or something like that is very different from saying "Heroic gear for doing LFR."
"The model works well for PvP, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for PvE. However, I don't expect Blizzard to ever make such a change; they seem very set in their "roll of the dice" methods."
Because PvP is about fighting other players - there's no nerfs to the content. PvP is all about supposedly equal terms where player skill determines the outcome.
PvE is definitely not equal - getting more gear is SUPPOSED to give you an advantage over a static boss. Bosses don't steadily get tougher to scale up to gear you get.
Finally, randomness has been *proven* to be more entertaining to people. It adds a sense of excitement, of opportunity. You never know what you might get. But Blizzard also recognizes that too much randomness isn't fun, so they put in stuff like roll protection, valor upgrades, and/or valor gear. But it's a supplement, not a primary source.
"Firstly, I have no idea which server to go to."
Put up an add on the guild recruitment forum - I guarantee you'll get a bunch of hits. Then figure out which guild(s) look the best. Talk to them, listen in on Vent/Mumble if you want.
"Agility is our main stat by far (more than double the secondary stats), so the lack of sockets hurts a lot."
Ah.
"Once all those reasons were exhausted, I ended up with only a weapon that could be replaced by a lucky HS drop and no need for valor anymore (everything had been purchased and fully upgraded by then)."
Okay - and you have over 530 ilvl. What more are you hoping for? A guaranteed 522 weapon? Is that your only concern? Sounds like you're plenty geared for me - more than enough for next tier's LFR, more than enough for this tier's normal, more than enough for this tier's heroics, more than enough for next tier's normal.
@Balkoth
DeleteThe 516 gun has a swing timer of 2.70 whereas the 502 has a swing timer of 3.00. Being all hunter damage is based off of base weapon damage the 2.70 speed gun might actually be a DPS loss instead of a gain as the weapon damage is lower because of the faster swing.
There have been many discussion on various hunter sites and the results are varied on whether it is a DPS upgrade or not. Some say yes, some say no.
I wanted to get it myself to run some tests first hand and see what it looks like. I can read all I want but with different reports the only way to get a true feel is for me to try myself.
Then there is the issue with the random stats on scenario items. If you get one of the weapons with hit or expertise, don't even try it, it is a DPS loss. If it has mastery, it might be a toss up, but if it has haste and crit it might, just might, be an upgrade.
So you need to get lucky to get it then lucky to get the stats you need on it just for the possibility that it might be a slim, and I do mean slim, as in less than 1K DPS increase.
It is one of those things where if I got it I might use it if it was indeed an upgrade. But with the super rare change to even get a 516, then the super rare chance it is a weapon, then the super rare chance it is one with the stats you need, it is not a viable way to go about upgrading a piece.
"Being all hunter damage is based off of base weapon damage"
DeleteTechnically it's normalized to be base weapon damage + (AP * 2.8). But yes, all else equal, a slower weapon will be slightly better.
"There have been many discussion on various hunter sites and the results are varied on whether it is a DPS upgrade or not."
No one's simply run some simulationcraft while using both weapons?
But yes, I get what you're saying in general. However, that also makes it sound like even getting a 522 weapon won't be much of a difference - ESPECIALLY if it's not the Durumu one (since the others have hit and/or expertise, right?).
They have but people argue the results nonetheless.
DeleteThe Durumu one is an 8-11K increase for me. So it is surely worth it. I think the real reason I am behind on the sims has more to do with tier gear. I only have one 522. I have not even gotten the legs off nalak even if I have killed him every week since he was first available.
No way in hell is the Durumu bow an 8-11k DPS increase and a well itemized H Scenario weapon a DPS decrease.
DeleteNow, there's no guarantee you'd get a well itemized H Scenario weapon, but it would have to be at least a 3-7k DPS increase even with everything you're saying if Durumu is 8-11k.
Checking Mr. Robot, although not the best it is easy access to check. It does seem like they changed some of the stat weights but not counting hit and expertise 516s the 2300 and the other 6800 so you are right based on comparing to an upgrade 502, it is closer to your numbers.
DeleteOne addition thing to take into account, which I am not sure if that does, is that a gem slot can be added to the ToT weapon and it can not to the scenario one.
Trust me, it was a much higher difference before they redid their site. It was around 1700 to 8800 last I checked and was as high as 11000 at one point. I look often so I am sure of it.
Like I said however, robot is not a perfect, but it is an easy place to check.
"Like I said however, robot is not a perfect, but it is an easy place to check."
DeleteMr Robot is significantly better when you provide your own stat weights from SimCraft, just an FYI. Or even stat weights from another source. Don't trust any of their default weights.
Yeah, it seems to over value hit and expertise even if you are capped. Even in relative when you do not need any it still seems to over value it.
DeleteIt always kind of bugged me that you could get equivalent gear to normal mode raiders just through valor and world bosses. Sure it wasn't as fast and it was convenient to be able to gear up alts to sub in to normal raids, it just seemed to me that normal mode raiders should get have a little more than just the weapon slot over non normal raiders.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I'm not a fan of having no valor gear at all. At least flex level valor gear would be nice.
I would be happy with flex level gear for valor. It would at least give my alts that I do not run on something to grab once in a while.
DeleteSeems like if you do not raid, you do not get gear, is that is now the only source for it.
I have 3 90s that have never stepped into a raid this expansion thus far. None of them are geared great, but at least thanks to valor gear they have more than enough gear to kill mobs in the world with great ease.
I wonder when this "gear is only for raiders" idea became so popular.
Because people doing only LFRs or sometimes not even doing any raiding were getting nearly identical gear to normal raiders.
DeleteI wouldn't object to valor gear being at LFR ilvl (and I have suggested that in the past), but the idea of valor has NEVER been an easy way to gear alts.
In BC, it was an alternative to raiding (doing Heroic 5 mans which were not something you could waltz into by any means - and you had to do a ton of dungeons to get a single item).
In WotLK, you AGAIN got them from raiding - then you could get them once per day as an incentive to do a daily heroic but that was only 14 emblems a week, max.
In Cata, valor was made much more accessible, but it involved either raiding (100+ valor per boss kill) or spamming tons of heroic dungeons. Blizzard also realized this created a problem where people did nothing but dungeons to slowly upgrade gear via valor - people got sick of it. There was no excitement or mystery.
In MoP, Blizzard's been trying out a few ideas, but you'll note that you have to do ToT in some form (LFR, normal, heroic) to buy valor gear from it. Which continues the idea of "gear is only for raiders."
Valor has supposed to be a supplement for items dropping - not a replacement for them.
"Because people doing only LFRs or sometimes not even doing any raiding were getting nearly identical gear to normal raiders."
DeleteWhy is that a problem? How does my having a 530-ish ilvl detract from your enjoyment of the game?
Also, a normal only raider at this point would still be better geared: 535-538 depending on their luck with thunderforged items. They'd have probably done a couple heroic modes as well and maybe gotten a piece or two of heroic gear, so could be 540-ish.
"Also, a normal only raider at this point would still be better geared: 535-538 depending on their luck with thunderforged items."
DeleteI've cleared 13/13H multiple times now. I have two Thunderforged items. It's so rare we assume it doesn't exist except for Ra-Den (which is guaranteed Thunderforged).
"Why is that a problem? How does my having a 530-ish ilvl detract from your enjoyment of the game?"
It throws off the effort/reward curve. The basic idea of WoW is that you do harder content to get better rewards. Higher level quests give better gear. Harder dungeons give better gear. Harder difficulties give better gear.
When you let people get nearly the same reward for doing only LFR as for full clearing normal, you strongly reduce one of the incentives of normal raids - better gear. This leads to less people going to normal raids, which is bad for the game in several ways. It not only reduces the raiding pool but a lot of this people will quit because LFR is an awful experience.
Imagine an extreme example - imagine that on your farm you could grow "Epic Scraps." You need 2 scraps for bracers/rings/etc. 3 scraps for belt/shoulders/etc. 4 scraps for chest/helm/etc. 6 scraps for weapon/trinket. And you can get 16 scraps a day. These epics that you assemble are identical to ToT drops.
How many people do you think would bother doing ToT normal as opposed to literally farming a set of 522 gear in less than a week? And then these people will quit because they have no more gear to shoot for and no social experience or team to keep them playing.
In short, being able to get a 530ish ilvl without raiding is bad for both the raiding population, people's enjoyment of the game, and the health of WoW itself.
"The basic idea of WoW is that you do harder content to get better rewards. Higher level quests give better gear. Harder dungeons give better gear. Harder difficulties give better gear."
DeleteWhich is still the case even with LFR and valor gear. In order to get better gear, I need to do normals and then I'd need to do heroics. I can get better gear from normals: two tier pieces, a weapon, a better itemized trinket, thunderforged items. The incentive is still there. For heroics, everything would be an upgrade. Personally, if I had a group of friends to raid with, I'd raid just to raid; the gear drops are not my biggest incentive; for me, it's about progression and friends. Most raiders I've met are not just "in it for the lootz".
"How many people do you think would bother doing ToT normal as opposed to literally farming a set of 522 gear in less than a week? "
You even say that's an extreme example, so it doesn't really help your argument. Of course it would be stupid if all normal level gear could be obtained in a week. However, the speed with which people can get gear is not what we are discussing. We are discussing the mechanisms through which people should have access to gear.
How many different PvE progression paths does this game have?
Hardcore Heroic raiders:
Heroic Dungeons for a day->Normals for a week or two->Heroics for a few weeks->farm or quit til next tier
Progression raiders:
Heroic Dungeons for a day->Normals/LFR for several weeks->Heroics for several weeks (usually run out of time or finish just before the next tier)->farm or take a couple weeks off til next tier
Casual raiders:
Heroic Dungeons for a day->Normal/LFR for most of the tier->maybe a couple of Heroics for a few weeks at the end of the tier->never finish before the next tier comes out
Casuals:
Heroic Dungeons for a few days->LFR for several weeks->Heroic scenarios / a few Normal pug groups if lucky to fight the first boss or two->progression would essentially stop after several weeks if there was no valor gear to grind for, so they'd just quit and potentially not come back next tier since the game doesn't have progression for them. Honestly, valor gear doesn't solve the problem by itself anyway, it just extends their progression to be closer to the Progression raiders. I still ended up with 6 weeks with no good way to progress.
All playstyles should have a progression path to keep them occupied until the new content comes out. Hardcore Heroic raiders are the ones who kind of break the mold but they are the lowest percentage of players and it's probably good for them to take breaks between their crazy progression runs.
If the only PvE progression is raiding, then many casuals would just quit.
Blizz is trying to give casuals another option for progression with Flex, which will help some. We will have to see how many it will really help. The lack of valor gear though will hurt raiders as well though; it will still remove what you state is the primary purpose for valor gear. Progression and Casual raider will be "forced" to do Flex to fill in missing items since they can't buy the gear with valor.
I am most definitely not the standard player, I will say that up front. But...
DeleteEven if I was able to get all best in slot gear the day the patch came out I would still play and I would still raid.
If people stop playing or stop raiding once they got gear they are not really "players". They are just fair weather fans like the people that only root for their team when it is winning. When there is something in it for them they do it, when there isn't they don't.
I run ICC runs for achievements, Ulduar runs for achievements, I run all old content for achievements, even if I don't need them any more but to help others get them.
Do I need gear from them? Hell no. I do it because I like to play.
Same goes for newer stuff. Do I raid for gear? Nope, never have and never will. Yes, I love getting an upgrade and I do believe that getting gear should be secondary. It should be easy. Gear means nothing except a means to make things easier. I play for the sake of playing.
Lets take right now. The last week or so I have been trying to get people the ahead of the curve achievement being the tier is about to end. I saved a lock out on one of my characters and have been filling groups trying to get them in so they can get their kill.
If I am making a group and I hear someone say "I already got it" so they do not want to help others get theirs, that means they will no longer be invited to my runs when the new tier comes out.
If all you raid for is the gear or the achievements and not the fun, you are a selfish person that I want nothing to do with.
I play for fun, I want to enjoy myself. Give me completely BiS the day a patch comes out and I will still subscribe the entire time because I enjoy playing. It has nothing to do with the gear.
However. If they are going to keep this "random is random" bull shit in game where you have to kill something 20 times to get an item because everything is based on luck, it makes it frustrating. Even if I might not raid for gear specifically, knowing a upgrade drops and never seeing it sucks.
If they had a better loot model, like Jaeger suggests, then it would be fine. Killing a boss 20 times and never seeing something drop sucks big time. But if the gearing model said "kill XXX 20 times and collect your trinket" it would be fine. Why would it be fine whereas the other way it would not? Because in 20 kills you know you are getting it whereas the other way some lucky bastard gets it first try and it takes you 30. Screw that. Make it a standard 20 for it for everyone and I can get behind that design for loot.
Random is random sucks. If anything random drop gear would make me quit the game a hell of a lot faster than letting me have all BiS the second I log in.
Having gear makes things easier. It makes me capable of helping others because I over gear things. It makes the game more fun because you can bring others along on something they might not get to on their own.
You might say that people would quit as soon as they had BiS. I say that those people are the type of people the game would be better off without. Who wants to play with those selfish people anyway? I sure has hell don't.
"I got what I want so I am not playing any more". Seriously, those are the people that would quit. I say good riddance.
"Which is still the case even with LFR and valor gear."
DeleteNo, it isn't. You can cap valor by doing dailies or heroic dungeons. In effect, you can get better than LFR gear for doing stuff easier than LFR.
Valor gear was less of an issue prior to LFR - but when it replaces LFR as a primary gearing source, it's a problem.
"Most raiders I've met are not just "in it for the lootz"."
I never said they were. I said better gear in normal is an incentive to get people to START raiding. Once you actually start raiding, the loot becomes less appealing and the other stuff matters more. But getting people into raiding in the first place is a large issue.
"You even say that's an extreme example, so it doesn't really help your argument. Of course it would be stupid if all normal level gear could be obtained in a week."
Of course it helps my argument. The point is that people want to do stuff that gives them a possible reward. They like being able to get some kind of upgrade or improvement. If you remove that from the equation, far, far less people will do said content.
"Heroics for several weeks (usually run out of time or finish just before the next tier)"
If by "several weeks" you mean "several months," sure.
"LFR for several weeks"
There's your problem.
"I still ended up with 6 weeks with no good way to progress."
That's *because* of Valor, not in spite of it. It's expected that you're running LFR for most of the tier, not several weeks. The fact that you were getting guaranteed gear that is generally BETTER than LFR is *why* you had six empty weeks.
LFR, ignoring coin rolls, is supposed to give you 1.8 items a week. Even if we assume you get 2 usable items per week via drops and coins, that means you're doing a minimum of 8 weeks. In practice, it's far more than that due to repeated drops. This is intended.
"If the only PvE progression is raiding, then many casuals would just quit."
I would completely agree, but giving out free normal mode quality gear is not "progression" and if anything diminishes LFR even more. I'm hopeful for Flex, Timeless Isle, AND Pet Battles. Pet Battles have been an amazing addition for a lot of casual players.
"The lack of valor gear though will hurt raiders as well though; it will still remove what you state is the primary purpose for valor gear."
No, because we'll have item upgrades, which gives an additional power boost each week for playing above and beyond gear drops.
"Progression and Casual raider will be "forced" to do Flex to fill in missing items since they can't buy the gear with valor."
We'll already have to do both LFR and Flex for trinkets and tier. Nothing changes there.
"If all you raid for is the gear or the achievements and not the fun, you are a selfish person that I want nothing to do with."
DeleteTwo important points here:
#1, there's a large difference between "I only raid for gear and achievements" and "I like being able to get gear and achievements."
#2, if someone asked me to help them with Heroic Sha of Fear, I would say no unless I knew them. Why? Because I have zero interest in wiping repeatedly on a wipe where I already wiped over a hundred times to learn originally.
Now, if I never got the kill while current, I might be more willing to try. But, in effect, you're asking people to give up hours of their time for no concrete benefit for them. Sometimes social bonds makes this worth it. Often it does not.
If I had the choice between running Heart of Fear again with random strangers or going and playing Starcraft 2, I'd rather play SC2. Choices do not exist in a vacuum.
"Give me completely BiS the day a patch comes out and I will still subscribe the entire time because I enjoy playing. It has nothing to do with the gear."
I would posit that even you would get tired of full clearing Throne of Thunder for 24 weeks with no gear drops. There's a difference between running a place a few times and having fun and running the place a few dozen times.
"Make it a standard 20 for it for everyone and I can get behind that design for loot."
Then gearing becomes boring. You know exactly when you'll get a certain piece of gear and there's no feeling of "I don't want to miss Durumu this week because the crossbow MIGHT drop this week!" You also lose out on the raid being able to assign loot to specific people to help progress.
Your method ALSO means that your raid gears more slowly. Right now your raid is guaranteed to get two items per boss, and typically both are usable, at least for the first few weeks. If your raid has to wait for people to kill the boss 20 times and then each person gets a guaranteed item, then nobody is getting gear each week and you aren't getting new gear to help you progress.
"Who wants to play with those selfish people anyway? I sure has hell don't."
While some of them may simply be incredibly selfish, I suspect a lot of them just like the idea of feeling like they have something to progress toward. If they feel like they've accomplished all they can, they'll quit.
I understand what you mean with only helping if you know the person. There are some things I will not do with some people. Not for selfish reasons but because it is not worth it.
DeleteLike in my guild there are a few people I will not run heroic scenarios with. They just make it hard and quite honestly I do not feel like soloing them because they die instantly because they stand in things all the time.
But if it is something I think we can do, I will help them. I only say no when I do not feel there is a reasonable chance of success.
I did say at the beginning of the post that I am not like most. So I agree with everything you say. For many they need the feeling of getting something. I take my joy in the feeling of getting people kills. Like when I spent 2 hours wiping on lei shen to try and get some people the kill before the next patch. I was frustrated, sure, we kept dying to stupid avoidable stuff. But I kept going because my reward (as nothing even drop for a hunter there) was to see other people get the kill. So yes, I admit, I take my rewards from a different place than most. I love hearing someone excited they downed a boss more than any loot. Except maybe a rare mount. ;)
So what you want valor gear to be?
ReplyDeleteWhat it was suppose to be - raider patch for bad luck, your case? Or what you keep fighting for - gear for questers. Cause, you know, you don't need that gear as a raider, you kept saying. You get gear from raids as a reward, you kept saying. And so on...
And another thing. How much did you raid on your hunter? I recall you saying you don't even have a full clear on your hunter. Which raises the question - what kind of gear do you expect to have for that? have the people that have the better gear always been there? Maybe it's not even your bad luck, maybe it's good luck on their part.
And that's slightly bullcrap. I'm looking over some numbers of ours. Hc Megaera, 531 avg iLvl. Hc Durumu, 535 avg. Hc Twins, 533 avg. How exactly are you holding people back, I ask?
And sim... our hunter sims for 204965.6 dps on 545 iLvl. That's what you need to get to for 200k+. Our mage - 256550.1 for 544 iLvl. What exactly do you compare your sim dps to?
I meant as in holding them back next tier.
DeleteIf luck is the only way to get gear as there is no valor gear, I will be stuck in last tiers gear as they all start getting the new gear and I will end up holding them back.
We could easily walk into heroics now. A 517 healer and a 518 tank might be a minor issue, but the rest of us are well geared for it. That is the only thing holding us back, not me right now. I am fine for heroics. Now.
My worry is about the future. It could all end up being for nothing. Maybe I will get lucky. I am due for it.
One week left to this tier and I got my bow. Better than last tier where I rocked the 489 and never got the sha touched, even the LFR version. At least I get to use my new 522 bow for a whole week.
Now I am happy. ;)
The four DPS in my group sim (although only 2 can actually approach their sim numbers) 216K, 206K, 190K and 189K and there is me at 160K.
"If luck is the only way to get gear as there is no valor gear, I will be stuck in last tiers gear as they all start getting the new gear and I will end up holding them back."
DeleteIf nothing is dropping for you and they're gearing up extremely quickly, then you won't be holding them back. You typically get the same result from having one person at 180k and one at 220k as having two people at 200k each.
I offer a 100% personal guarantee that, if you raid with your guild on your hunter each week, your gear will never wind up holding them back from anything.
"A 517 healer and a 518 tank might be a minor issue, but the rest of us are well geared for it. That is the only thing holding us back, not me right now."
That's not even remotely close to a minor issue. It's a complete non-issue. Start working on Heroic Jin'rohk and Ji-Kun at a minimum - they're extremely easy and gear doesn't matter.
I am sure in the long run things will drop for me. It will even out. I just hate not being able to do what I know I would be capable of because of random number generator.
DeleteThere is also the skill issue.
The 517 healer cost us finishing the raid this week again last night because she could not handle the transitions. She has no common sense where if she sees one person run to the right swirl she runs there too. I kept having to say, if you see someone running there, run to the other one. Learn to adapt, learn to see what people are doing, learn to use some common sense, it is not hard. All stuff like that.
It is not only gear, it is playing with the people that are there. A team is only as strong as its weakest link and yes, that 517 healer is holding us back. Not because of gear but because of reaction. My 498 healer out heals them in movement fights. I am the same class, so it is not a class difference. It is that she has absolutely no common sense in fights that require it whereas I spend a lot of time and effort thinking about how I can do things and when I will and I have common sense.
If I sit her and bring a new recruit in I am sure we could be 6/13 at least tomorrow. But we are not a hard core guild so I will not sit them because of it but I must admit after last night I am going to.
I do not care that she does not have her ahead of the curve and other do. The difference is, for all the others, you were not in group.
We got to the last boss again, I rotated 3 people out that did not need gear off it to get three people in so they can get their kill. I understood there would be some wipes because they needed to learn it, I am fine with that, but when you spend 2 hours on a boss that you should be able to kill in less than 10 attempts even with 3 new people, it makes you realize that some people just are not raiders even if they have been raiding since vanilla.
Now the problem is, how do I break that to her. She is the reason that her and 2 others do not have the kill.
So the issue with the 517 healer is more telling that they are 517. Not because the gear matters but because they are 517.
As you said, there is no reason anyone even without raid drops, should be less than 530 now. So that is why her 517 is a huge issue. Not because she is 517 because because that 517 shows she just is not trying.
"It is not only gear, it is playing with the people that are there."
DeleteExcept, as you pointed out later, the gear doesn't even matter in this case. If she could handle the transitions, she'd be fine with 500 ilvl. And since she can't handle them, having full heroic Thunderforged would not help at all.
"If I sit her and bring a new recruit in I am sure we could be 6/13 at least tomorrow."
I wouldn't go THAT far :P You'll be wiping on some of the fights for a bit as you nail the execution.
"I am fine with that, but when you spend 2 hours on a boss that you should be able to kill in less than 10 attempts even with 3 new people, it makes you realize that some people just are not raiders even if they have been raiding since vanilla."
We brought in two new people for Heroic Lei Shen last night. It took us over three hours to kill him.
"Now the problem is, how do I break that to her. She is the reason that her and 2 others do not have the kill."
Tell her that she needs to improve her situational awareness and ability to react well.
Tell her to PvP - it's a good way to increase that.
Tell her to make sure she practices by running a H Scenario each day and make the timer - there's stuff to avoid in all of those.
Tell her to try Challenge modes so she can learn in those.
Tell her to do the two "Ready for Raiding" achievements for the Golden Lotus (survival rings).
Tell her to go practice in the vault on the Isle of Thunder king where you have to jump from platform to platform.
That's just off the top of my head. There are a lot of ways for her to try to improve if she wants. But when it comes down to it...
"517 shows she just is not trying."
You can tell her that too.
I recall a post of yours when you described some 'Bob' healer that failed and failed but you still wanted to play with. Is this the same healer?
DeleteI wouldn't bring in 3 new people to a second boss kill, I'd bring two tops. To each his own.
@James
DeleteNo, that is another healer. We have some healer issues. ;)
Even with the three new it should not have been a problem. The healing is minimal when people do the right thing and we could easily 4 DPS it so bringing a 5th isn't really hurting.
It was all about people not moving correctly, or more so one person.
@Balkoth
Okay, maybe I was over estimating with the one night thing. But I do think if we actually put some effort into it there are 6 bosses we would be able to do in less than 10 wipes each.
I can't get anyone in my guild to do challenge modes. It is the one thing I wish I were in a more "serious" guild for. I want to do them but I can never get a team to try. I assembled one once and they gave up on the first pack of trash.
Sad part is the healer I mention is always willing to go for things like that. I just do not want to take her because I know with her there we will never get it done.
Catch 22 there. She is willing to do it, but is not capable of doing it. And it is always excuse after excuse. I actually got a little snippy with her the last couple of weeks about that and I am normally not that type of raid leader. I kept telling her, shut up and play. Stop making excuses, just don't make the same mistake next time.
As much as I like the player as a person I am about to give them a kick from the regular raid team because I am about as fed up with excuses as I could be.
When you need to tell someone to shut up over and over during the fight, they have worn out their welcome.
"I can't get anyone in my guild to do challenge modes. It is the one thing I wish I were in a more "serious" guild for."
DeleteAdvertise on the realm forums or even cross realm.
"Sad part is the healer I mention is always willing to go for things like that. I just do not want to take her because I know with her there we will never get it done."
I'm not saying you'll succeed with her. I'm saying the experience will help her improve if your goal is to help her get better. If she's capable of improving, that is.
"When you need to tell someone to shut up over and over during the fight, they have worn out their welcome."
I'd say they've gone well past wearing out their welcome >.>
I have a few people now that are willing to go and will stick it out and have the skill. Just need a tank and another damage dealer. Most damage dealers, even the very good ones, seem to have an aversion to going there because their damage is so "low". I don't think they get what it it really about. lol
DeleteI think she is capable of improving. She used to be better but the last year she seems as if she is really slipping. I'm guessing it has something to do with more than just the game itself but it is not my place to delve into real life. I do leave myself open for people to come talk to me however and I doubt it would come as a surprise to you but a great many people do come to me.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI rarely do any weekend blogging. That is when I am busying doing what I do every weekend...
Delete... trying to take over the world.
Pinky: "Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?"
DeleteThe Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky—try to take over the world!"
-straws of kazzak-eu
You nailed the reference. :)
Delete