Tuesday, August 20, 2013

I'd Like A New LFR Loot Design

I've been thinking for a long time, actually since the LFR first came out, that the LFR needs a better loot design.  They have made a great deal of changes.  First was group loot where people would roll need even if they did not need or roll need on things just to keep others from getting them.  This was bad design for random content with that many people that I am still amazed to this day that blizzard actually allowed to go live.

I remember that first week of the DS LFR and 2 bows dropped, I rolled need on them of course as a hunter, and a rogue won both of them.  The same rogue won both of them.  I was upset but not nearly as much as some of the other hunters in there.  If I remember correctly it took another 19 weeks for me to even see another bow drop in the LFR.

Events like that happened on a daily basis and that bought on a change that only some classes could roll on some things.  This fixed some issues but not all.  Like my shaman healer losing a shield to a retribution paladin.  First, why was a retribution paladin allowed to roll need on something that is not for their spec, and even if you allowed them to roll need for off spec reasons why did they get to +100 bonus when retribution paladins do not even use shields?

I put in multiple tickets, and this is most likely when I really began to lose faith in the ticket system.  Not one person that responded to any of my tickets answered my question which was how did a healing shaman that uses shields lose a healing shield to a retribution paladin that does not even use shields.

All I wanted was someone to say, it must be a bug.  He should not have won it.  Anything to acknowledge that there was a problem with the loot system but I got "if they can roll they can win" type responses.  Well, go screw yourself GM.

So when they went to the personal loot system I was all for it.  No longer would my hunter lose weapons to a rogue or my shaman lose shields to a retribution paladin.  I would either win or lose.

Admittedly I was never completely fond of it but it was better than seeing someone else win something they had no right to even roll on because blizzard could not develop a decent and fair rolling system.

I was okay with the personal loot system until the other week when doing ToT normal and I won something I had been looking for and immediately said, thank god I thought I would never win this, I've killed this boss a million times.

And then it occurred to me.  I did not kill this boss a million times.  I killed it 6 times on that character.  It just felt like a million times I have killed it because I have killed it so many times in the LFR on so many characters and it all starts to blend together seeing gold bag after gold bag and when I won something it felt like I had killed that boss a lot on normal when in fact I had not killed it all that often at all.

So while the LFR personal loot system is better than it had been when it was first introduced last expansion and first adjusted last expansion, it still seems to have a horrible side effect, at least for me.

It is making me lose track of who is killing what and where I am killing it because I have killed it so many times on so many different characters in both normal and LFR.  It starts to blend together.  You see baggie after baggie and gold after gold on coins and suddenly it is not one character killing a boss for 6 weeks that did not get anything, it is 8 characters killing that boss over those 6 weeks and it feels like you did not get that piece you needed after 48 kills.  Not 6 like it really was.

Loot dropping from the LFR needs to be removed completely.

You heard me right.  LFR should no longer drop loot at all.  Not even the rare chance of it.  Not loot, ever.

There has to be a better looting system for the LFR, one that does not make people feel as if all they ever do is lose.  After running it week after week and for some people on multiple characters, it can start to feel like you never win anything.  And as one of those people that feels that way I can tell you that is a really shitty feeling.

My proposed change to the LFR loot system would be two fold.  First remove all the gear from all bosses and place everything that drops at a vendor in the LFR version of the raid.  Second is all bosses drop a kill token.  As this tier would drop a T15 kill token.  If you use a coin you get a second kill token on the boss.  Just like loot currently is you can only get something off a boss once a week, so you can only get one kill token a week per boss you kill.

Now to that vendor I mentioned.  Every single piece of gear that would have dropped from bosses is now available at that vendor.  Rings, back and neck for 8 kill tokens each.  Waist and wrists at 10 tokens.  Trinkets and boots at 12 tokens.  Head, chest, legs, arms and shoulders at 16 tokens each and the tier versions of said items at 20 tokens each.  One handed weapons would be 10 tokens, two handed weapons would be 20 and offhands and shields would be 10.

What this would do is make the gearing patterns quite clear in the LFR.  No luck involved.  If you want the chest tier token you will not run it week after week hoping for a drop.  You will just kill 20 bosses and trade in for that tier token for your chest.

It would also remove that feeling of "gold again" off every boss that people have gotten accustom to by now.  No one likes to never win and no one likes to see someone say "hey look I got the shoulder token I don't need because I already have 3 of them" when you have been trying for 12 weeks for it and using a coin each week and still do not have it.

Loot, or not getting it, is just not a fun aspect of the game.  Sure it is fun to get the loot but it is not fun to not get it.  And it is even more frustrating when it starts to feel like you have killed a boss a million times and never get anything, even if you only really killed it 6 times.  Because it all starts to blend together seeing gold bag after gold bag after gold bag.

With dropping tokens that means every time you down a boss, you win.  No matter what.  It gives you incentive to kill all the bosses each week to speed up your process of collecting the tokens and every kill is one step closer to getting what you want.  It is no longer of case of "maybe I will get it this week" as it becomes a case of, I just need 5 more kill tokens to get my piece.  Which in the end, is a lot more exciting then seeing another gold bag pop up, don't you think?

I always have always been a fan of the earn your gear design over the luck design and this system would really support that.  You kill enough bosses you earn the right to buy the gear with tokens from those bosses.  No longer will you ever have to hear someone say, "I have had no luck with drops" because they have no excuse.  If they needed something that costs 10 kill tokens they just need to kill 10 bosses and get tokens.  No luck needed.

I think the LFR needs a new loot design, one that makes people feel like they are winning sometimes and something that does not start to blend in with the real raid as just "another week with nothing."


  1. Disagree completely. Loot RNG is always going to be a core aspect of WoW, it wouldn't be the same game without it, even with something like LFR.

    The non-RNG aspect of gearing up is JPs/VPs. You're basically just proposing a 3rd version of points that's LFR-specific. LPs. LFRPs?

    The thing about RNG is that it goes both ways. Sure, you get dry spells, but other times my Monk, right after hitting i460 for the first time, has a ridiculous string of luck, picking up 11 upgrades in 18 bosses between MV, HoF and Terrace LFR the first week (2 were upgrades of upgrades so only ended up with 9 slot upgrades, but STILL). Sure, I've never seen anything close to that since (and in general that toon's luck has been cold for a while now) but that's how it goes and I still appreciate that great early run, I was raiding on that toon weeks earlier than I might have been able to otherwise because of that.

    The reason why I hate those "I didn't need a 3rd one of these" isn't because they got a 3rd, it's because they're telling us about it, truthfully or not. They're idiots, if they aren't trolling about that they'll just troll about something else. Trolls will troll.

    I do wish there was a way to make RNG a bit less random but I don't think removing it entirely would be a good idea. Without RNG, LFR would be just another grind where you know it'll take 16 weeks to get everything you want. There are more than enough grinds in the game already.

    I'd also up the drop rates in LFR quite a bit... I should be able to have most of what I need out of it within 6-8 weeks. Not all, but most. Right now, the ToT drop rates are too low for that. The revamped 5.0 drop rates are probably pretty close. They probably do mirror the gear acquisition rate in normal raids but I don't think that should be the goal, LFR should be something to run every week for a short period of time, or occasionally over a longer period of time, not something you run weekly for a full tier.

    1. No one likes to feel like they are getting nothing. When you see gold bag after gold bag it leaves a lasting impression that is bad for the game.

      Sure, RNG might be part of the game, but in a situation like this it is bad for the game. People see themselves killing the same boss and not getting anything over and over again and it starts to blend together into "it never drops" when in fact they have not killed the boss 20 times, they only killed it 4, but because they killed it 16 times on another characters it feels like you killed it 20 times and did not get your item.

      Either way. I will always prefer to "earn" my gear ( grind as you like to call it but that is earning ) over lucking into it. Luck is a horrible way to decide anything and the only people that support a luck based system are the people that are lucky.

      As the saying goes, it isn't an issue until it effects you.

      Here is the perfect example of why the luck system does NOT work.

      My monk hit 480, went into the ToT LFRs, won something off of almost every boss, 500 item level the day it hit 90.

      My DK did the MV, HoF and ToES (16 bosses) 8 weeks straight and won 1 item, and that was the 1 item they did not need. Not even including coins which I used on nearly every boss (because of island keys) and that means basically no items with 128 kills. If I include all those rolls you are talking no items in well over 200 kills.

      Both of those cases are extremes. But both of them illustrate 100% why a luck based system for random content is bad.

      With a steady flow, as you would get with tokens, you will always be rewarded for your effort. This will make people feel like they are winning something which in turn makes for happy people. You will never face the wall my DK did where I just gave up or gear up in one run like my monk did and have no real reason to go back.

      I would support a semi luck based system however. Something where you won 1 in 4 times. So if you killed a boss 3 weeks in a row and won nothing the 4th time you would be guaranteed something off the loot table. Sure it might not be what you need, but you would definitely get something. In the end it all comes down to perception and seeing gold bag after gold bag, even if on multiple characters, gives the impression you never win and that is bad because it makes people feel defeated by the game because of luck and that is not good for the health of the game at all.

    2. You're not getting nothing... you're getting gold, boss experience (if you choose to do it properly), rep (sometimes), VPs and, occasionally, gear. Most importantly, you're getting gameplay. Blizz can't directly support someone who doesn't actually value the playing of the game, that always needs to come first and everything else (including gear) has to come out of the gameplay, not the other way around. The only guaranteed loot in this game is crafted or off the AH/BMAH. If you need guaranteed loot, best start working on your gold making techniques. I have more gold than I can spend but I still run LFR rather than buying it. I value the gameplay (most of the time), the gear is a bonus. Gear is normally how I choose WHO to run but that's a function of having more toons than time.

    3. You have to be kidding me if you think that getting gold from them is a worthwhile reward.

      I can get gold putting stuff on the AH. I can get gold doing dailies. I can get gold soloing stuff. I can get gold a million ways in the game that are much more enjoyable than spending forever in queue just to be grouped with a bunch of trolls and AFKers and generally bad people.

      Notice I said bad people, not bad players. Bad players I can deal with, bad people I hate. The only "you lost" reward they can give me that would be worth it is if they sent me money in real life.

      Do not consider gold as winning something. It is your share of the gold dropped from killing the boss. If you think otherwise you never raided outside of the LFR and noticed that you got gold when the boss was killed.

      The only difference is that gold comes in a bag and not from a split when the body was looted. You are not winning gold. You are getting your share of the spoils.

      I too have more gold than I can ever spend and would not waste it on crafted gear unless that crafted gear is BiS or damn close to it.

      Your experience argument is the only one you actually have(outside of the gear issue). I use the LFR to learn and get better at bosses. I do it for myself.

      Rep, I would prefer another way to get it. It is only there when they force it to be there.

      VP, there are better and more efficient ways to get it.

      Gear, is a motivation factor when you have bad luck, and that is what I am trying to say needs to be rectified so it is not so RNG based.

      Gameplay, I would rather the game play be spent on playing the game than waiting in queue for what seems like forever to end up with the chance of being in a group with those people I previously mentioned.

  2. I do agree that the LFR looting system needs to be changed, however, like the poster above I think your system turns into "Justice Points by another name". There needs to be a bit of RNG or there is no point to loot at all. Might as well just sell it all for gold tied to a rep vendor.

    I'd like to see LFR never reward gold bags. Ever. Any boss kill should get you a random piece of loot off the bosses loot table. Maybe it should be weighted to favor your looting spec or maybe not. Every boss some loot though should be the norm for a system like LFR.

    Now your coin flip following the kill should also always reward gear and this should always reward you based on your loot spec. Some RNG is good, but with a system like LFR you need a guarantee of some reward for effort. If nothing else you need to make it easier for experts to gear alts and low skill players NEED access to better gear faster so as not to slow others down more than they already do.

    1. Hm. That's an interesting idea... make LFR gear non-DEable (vendor only), pick a random piece out of the full loot table and hope for the best. The vendor value of the gear wouldn't be much different from the current gold amount.

      Hm. I think that could work as long as the overall percentages wouldn't be too different from what they are now (15% chance of getting useable loot). I think that'd be pretty close as-is, though.

      I like it.

    2. How about having it drop layered gear if you are going to have it "always" drop gear. Like when you really "win" you get a 502 but when you lose you get a 489 or 496, something from last tier?

      That way you are not giving 502 gear all the time. At least it people would feel they are winning something, better then having the feeling of never winning.


      Is 15% really a number? If it is someone must have 100% loot rate to make up for me. I ran 3 characters through this weekend, used a few coins, won nothing on any of them. That is pretty far from 15%.

      If I had to guess based on experience I would say the drop rate for the older LFRs is around 15% now and the current LFRs has to be roughly 2%.

    3. It's a number, MMO-C did some testing based on satchel drop rates (so, failure rates) and it came out to 15% for ToT and 30% for 5.0 content, roughly. Details below.

      The problem with perception is that a lot of people can't actually track a drop rate over time, at best they only remember UPGRADES rather than drops and tend to remember dry streaks more than upgrades. If such a thing doesn't already exist I'd love to see someone make an add-on that tracks satchels / boss kill that can give us all actual personal numbers to work from across all toons. I'll bet the 15%/30% numbers are pretty close for all of us.

      As a minor statistical point, with a 15% drop rate, you aren't always going to get 2 drops in 12 bosses... it's actually less than a 30% chance you'll get exactly 2. There a 14% chance you'll get 0 drops. Here are the drop rates we should all be getting for a full clear of 12 ToT bosses based on 15% (math was a long time ago but I think I remember how to do this):

      0 drops: 14%
      1 drop: 30%
      2 drops: 29%
      3 drops: 17%
      4 drops: 7%
      5+ drops: 3% (this is the sum of 5-12)

      For N drops, the Excel formula I used (substituting each value for N) is:




      Satchel Drop Rate

      Patch 5.0 Raid Finder - Dropped ~84% of the time before Patch 5.2. Now only drops 67.8% of the time (Std. Dev. 3.2%)

      Throne of Thunder Raid Finder - Drops ~81% of the time (Std. Dev. 1.7%)

      Keep in mind that the sample sizes we have for drop rates after Patch 5.2 are fairly small, only a few hundred kills of each boss in LFR difficulty, and only the first three bosses in Throne of Thunder.

      We can assume that when a satchel does not drop, you are winning loot, as we don't save drop rates for bonus roll items. This means the drop rate of loot in Patch 5.0 raids went from 16% to 32%.

    4. It must just be my bad luck kicking in. Or perhaps it is skewed by the fact I do them on so many characters I remember more baggies than I do loot. It could very well be the upgrade thing as well. Because in my mind if I do not need a piece of gear I tend to think of it as how much it sells for.

      I only tend to remember drops when I am looking for them. Like how many kills it took me to get my ranged weapon because over all that was all I wanted.

      That is some great information, thanks for sharing it.

  3. I think this is sort of coming at the wrong issue. The problem, as I see it, is that lfr is used for gearing at all. It shouldn't be a stepping stone to actual raiding. I think we all agree that it doesn't prepare anyone for real raiding, so why should anyone do it to gear for real raiding. When Blizz implemented it, they're expressed reason was that most people who played the game weren't getting to see end game content. Well great, let everyone see it with lfr, but don't make us feel like we have to do it every week if we're already seeing normal raids. The only way to make it feel like it's not necessary is have the ilvls be lower than the previous tier gear.

    Then the people who are doing lfr to see end game content can get something, and it might look cool like current tier gear. But if you were around for raiding during the previous tier, then there's absolutely no reason to run it. The people who are running it won't be gearing up for anything other than the next lfr, so no problem there either.

    As for your actual suggestion, I'd be happy seeing both as an option (which is kind of how valor gear works, I suppose). I would hate to feel like I had to grind out every single boss if there's only one who drops what I need. Though I do appreciate having the option of grinding.

    So throw in the coins so people can grind if their luck is bad, or not if they don't feel like it and are getting lucky enough. And if the ilvl is below the previous normal tier, then who cares if they gear faster. People running LFR for their endgame content are going to be leveling other toons and such, not getting bored because they geared to fast and there's no more reason to keep playing before the next patch.


    1. The LFR can be used to prepare for real raiding. However, by itself is does not do that. But a smart player that wants to learn will find a way to do so in LFR. I learned the maze in LFR because I got to that boss in it before I did in the real raid. But that is because I made the effort to learn. By itself the LFR teaches nothing, but to someone that really wants to learn it can be used as a tool.

      I think you get where I am going, at giving people the option to get gear instead of having it be one thing and one thing only and that is waiting on luck. Luck is not compelling game play to me and even less so in random content with random people that can sometimes be quite frustrating to begin with.

      I agree with dropping the item level too. And no tier sets. While I would be stuck with only 1 piece of tier if not for the LFR, I would just use offset pieces. No biggie. But because tier gear was there I felt compelled to do it. I would love for the LFR to be completely removed from my radar. But as long as there is something I can get from there, be it gear or quest items, I will feel forced to do it.

  4. I would prefer a mixed approach.

    One system that I've seen used the normal drops with an additional currency. Special vendors would only accept this currency, but their inventory was dynamic. After you killed a boss, all items from its loot table would appear for sale at the vendor. It would take multiple kills in current content to purchase any item from that tier. It should take roughly 1.5-2.5 weeks per item, scaling prices similar to valor costs. Previous tier costs are cut in half when a new tier goes live.

    - Too similar to current justice/valor model.
    - Additional currencies would add unnecessary complexity.
    - If valor is used as currency, a reset would be required each tier.
    - Gear everybody too fast and they will retire faster.

    - Drastically increase LFR drop rate, with large increases for previous tiers. (SoO 25%, ToT 50%, MV/HoF/ToES 100%)
    - Option to downvote items, removing them as a random item. Can limit to 3 downvotes per boss, with awarded items automatically downvoted.
    - Loot bags should be similar to Heroic Scenario crates containing gold and at least 2 of the following: JP/VP, advanced crafting materials, vanity item, additional loot.

    1. I like the both idea. Something like if you win a piece you do not get a kill token but if you don't you get a token.

      I can get behind that 100%. That gives options and I like options. Options are good.

      I also agree about the bags needing a change if we are going to keep them in game. Every bag should have some motes in it and maybe even a few lesser charms. Something to make us feel we are getting something for putting up with these random people.

    2. I wish the fail bags contained valor points instead of gold. Valor rewards are still much lower than they were in the past. Herioc Scenarios and Daily dungeons are the only decent sources of valor. Raiding isn't even an efficient source of valor.

      Duplicate gear is just annoying as well; give me the option to DE it if someone in the group is an enchanter, just like in dungeons.

      "You won Crappy Useless Boots. Accept, DE, or Vendor?"

      Also, the vendor prices on the gear should be higher. A duplicate item is currently more fail than a fail bag; at least the fail bag was worth more gold.

    3. I would love to be able to DE the duplicate gear. That would be a great addition to the LFR in my opinion.

      Sometimes getting gear feels like you lost. I've gotten over 100 gold on bonus rolls many times and getting some 11 gold piece I do not need feels like I just got screwed.

      I think you should always get gold + gear (if you get any gear at all) and not just one or the other.

  5. "It is no longer of case of "maybe I will get it this week" as it becomes a case of, I just need 5 more kill tokens to get my piece. Which in the end, is a lot more exciting then seeing another gold bag pop up, don't you think?"


    Because it also means there's no way you'll get it ahead of time. People *like* feeling like they might hit it big this week.

    Also, your suggestion makes it even worse for heroic mode raiders because then you're guaranteed to get exactly the items you want from LFR. Versus being able to stop doing a boss once you have everything you need from them.

    Finally, Blizzard will never increase gearing rates - if they make gear easier to get in some way, they'll make it more difficult in another. If they remove duplicate items, you'll only win items like 5% of the time instead of 15%.

    Not going to say too much here because I'm plenty busy on the other post, but people need randomness to keep things interesting and, even if Blizzard removes some randomness, they'll decrease something else to keep the rate of gearing the game.

    1. How about a layered approach for back luck protection? Where you still have the "chance" to get something, but if you do not get it after 20 kills you can buy it?

      In the end I am not a fan of random. I like order.

    2. "Where you still have the "chance" to get something, but if you do not get it after 20 kills you can buy it?"

      What is "it" in this case? Let's say after 20 kills of Lei Shen I still need the off-hand, trinket, and gloves - does that mean I get to buy all three after 20 kills, guaranteed? Or as many items as I want from the boss's pool?

      "In the end I am not a fan of random. I like order."

      Imagine a world where you could pick two items to get from the boss each week. Imagine the drama of the raid leader having to choose who to give gear to. Imagine the problem of everyone immediately picking weapons and trinkets first.

      Blizzard does not WANT people to always go "Get weapon, then get trinkets, then get tier, etc."

    3. I would say you get 1 item, of your choice.

      I would never want to be put in the position where I pick what drops. That would make for a lot of angry raiders no matter how you do it. There would be no win in that situation.

      However, I would love if there were some order to it. It seems like we DE holy paladin gear every week. If we had a holy paladin he would be geared because it seems every thunderforged drop we ever get is intellect plate.

      Some intelligence to the loot system, or some order if you will, would be a nice addiction. If no one in the raid is that spec or has an offspec for it, then nothing of that gear type should drop.

      Blizzard just wants us to keep paying a monthly fee. If they believed that giving away gear free would do that, we would all have gear. It is not that they don't want us to have gear, it is that they believe this is the best business strategy to keep us paying. In the end they really do not give a crap if we get anything, as long as we keep paying.

    4. "If no one in the raid is that spec or has an offspec for it, then nothing of that gear type should drop."

      Guys, we have a new paladin tank, so we're going to have people bring their warrior/paladin/DK alts so more plate gear drops.

      It would be nice but it would also be incredibly exploitable without some limitations.

      "In the end they really do not give a crap if we get anything, as long as we keep paying."

      But at the same time they know they need to make a game appealing enough that we keep paying.

    5. I did not even think about gaming the system like that. That is actually an excellent idea. I would surely do it.

      It is a hard balance for them. They need to keep people playing and interested. So, as you mentioned, they need to keep the gearing slower or people might get bored.

      I would say this patch worked perfect. My guild will have finished the content (normal for us) a little over a month before the new content. Time wise, that is actually great.

      It kept us busying and moving and gearing and gives us, if we want it, a little break before new stuff comes out.

      But for as perfect this tier design was for us, it was not for most of the raiding community. We just got lucky as the casual guild this tier was meant for.

      BTW: Got three pieces last night. Need to do some math on 2 of them to see if they are side grades or upgrades, but a nice TF upgrade.

    6. "I did not even think about gaming the system like that. That is actually an excellent idea. I would surely do it."

      Yeah, that's part of Blizzard's problem, they have lots of people like me who will try to gain anything Blizzard goes to get an advantage over our competition. And we're not even that hardcore - other guilds would be far worse.

      "BTW: Got three pieces last night. Need to do some math on 2 of them to see if they are side grades or upgrades, but a nice TF upgrade."

      Nice to hear.

    7. Thanks.

      Yeah. I read all about those cleaver use of mechanics things and think to myself, nice work guys. ;)

  6. There should be a formula to it.

    Do Z for X weeks and you will have a full set of Y gear. There could be some luck in there that could allow you to maybe get everything a little faster (maybe X-1, X-2, X-L weeks); X weeks is a guarantee though. There could be catch up like there is for PvP where you can work extra hard to catch up to the players who started in Week 1 or if you miss a week, you can double up the next week to catch up.

    However with Random loot, the average time may still be X weeks, but you might get lucky and get it all in X/4 weeks or may be slogging it out for what feels like an eternity for 4X weeks. The super lucky people potentially get bored and quit. The super unlucky people potentially get frustrated and quit.

    If the system is mostly scheduled with a little luck thrown in, the chances of people getting bored or frustrated are significantly reduced. The challenge is just defining what the appropriate value is for X; not too long, not too short, but just right so that everyone feels they are making progress each week.

    That's how the Personal Loot system should work. If you want to use valor as the currency, that would work fine. Gear drops in LFR and Flex would be significantly lower but you'd earn more valor instead to purchase gear. Let's say it's Flex level gear that is purchased.

    So if you valor cap every week, you'd at least have fully upgraded flex gear by the end of the tier. Maybe with a couple weeks to spare if you were lucky with drops.

    Under this system though, raiding should be the most efficient way of capping valor. Dailies, dungeons, etc would still be available but raiding should be the best bang for the buck. For example if you did a full flex clear, you should cap or at least be close to capping. LFR should be a little less efficient. Normal/Heroic raiders should definitely cap if they kill all the bosses.

    Fail bags should be goodie bags. You always get gold and valor for killing the boss. But in your bag, you get a chance at spec appropriate loot or you will more likely get bonus gold, bonus valor, potions, flasks, food, mats, pets, etc. Goodie Bags!

    Another idea that would go along with this is that instead of getting a random piece of gear (if you're lucky enough to win one), you have a chance at getting a token. The token can be used to purchase an item or upgrade an item. That would work out better than a random piece of gear, I think. Better control over the gearing process.

    On another note, they announced that 5.4 will be Sept 10th. Which is good, I think they still need to do more balancing and testing on the PTR.

    1. I agree that something needs to be done with the random system. Getting everything in one week is as frustrating as getting nothing for 20 weeks. One gives you no motivation to keep going because you have everything and the other kills your motivation to keep going because it feels like you are never getting anywhere.

      It is really hard to balance things out but if they could keep an even flow some how it would be nice. One piece of gear a week seems ideal. It would keep people busy for at least half the cycle, maybe more, and they would feel as if they are constantly advancing on a person level.

      The biggest problem I see is that without raiding there is now no way to ever feel personal progression gear wise.

  7. How is getting nothing but gold bags any different than seeing the same pally plate gear drop every week in normal mode? You still didn't win an item.

    The problem is still going to be the same if you ran normal mode 48 times across all your alts you'd have the same feeling of running it too much and nothing to show.

    They are never going to make gear completely deterministic, and I think doing so would be incredibly boring.

    They will never make current tier drop rates significantly higher because then people will unsub in between tiers. The only reason it's higher for older tiers is catch-up.

    The only real change I want to see to LFR loot is maybe some normalization of the number of drops per boss. One boss drops one item, but another drops six possible. If your item you still need is from that one that drops six possible you are very likely to not see it drop. This was especially a problem with HoF and ToeS as for many classes there was only one weapon for them from one boss. If your weapon happened to drop from a boss with lots of other drops then the chances you went until ToT without a weapon upgrade were pretty high. I think in ToT just the sheer number of different weapons dropping from different bosses alieviated a lot of that, but you still had that problem with the tier pieces and maybe some other specific pieces.

    1. It is all a matter of appearance. In LFR you do not see loot dropping so it gives the feeling that when you don't win, no one wins. When you win, what happened for everyone else really doesn't matter.

      Yes, I know this is not true. I could get a bag in LFR and all 24 others won loot. But not seeing it means nothing drops even if I know better. At least with the paladin gear that no one uses you can curse the RNG for dropping junk, but at least something did drop. That is the difference. It is in appearance, not in actuality.

      I could see a change like that being nice. There are a few bosses that drop nothing for a hunter. And no, I do not mean "nothing I can use" I mean nothing. Sure the last boss drops a trinket hunters "can" use but it is not a hunter trinket. Things like that I mean.

      It would be nice if each boss had 2 or 3 things that could drop for you. It would smooth some things out for sure.