Wednesday, November 23, 2011

Guild Loot Drama

One of the best parts of being in a casual guild that is mostly an adults only guild is that there is usually no loot drama.  Unlike kids most adults are reasonable when it comes to loot.  What I don't get today I will get next week.  That is the way most adults think of things.  Not all mind you, but most.

Our guild has some very simple loot rules, as most casual guilds do.  One main spec win per boss, two main spec wins per raid unless no one else can use the item main spec then you could have more, and if something is a much bigger upgrade for someone else the officers have the right to assign it to someone more needing.

The third rule has never been used.  Usually you just mention that it will be a huge upgrade for someone else and the person passes it without even needing to be asked.  Another beautiful thing about being in a casual guild filled with adults.

That rule was put in place if it ever came down to something like someone wanting a side grade, 10 more crit and 10 less haste, even if it is an upgrade, over someone that was wearing something 26 item levels lower.  We have never had to use it, but that is why the rule exists.  Our members are smart enough to know that a side grade for them, even if it is an upgrade, is not more important then a real upgrade for someone else.

So where did the loot drama come from?

Someone that was not even in the raid at all.  This is the main reason it bothers me.  I am not the guild leader so I left it be but if I where the guild leader the offender would have been guild kicked so hard he would land on another server.

If other people left because they agreed with him, then I say good riddance, we do not need people like that in our guild.  Everyone is replaceable, even me as the raid leader is replaceable.  I have no problems waving goodbye to anyone that causes problems.

As I am the raid leader however I can handle it from my standpoint.  Mr trouble maker will no longer be invited to any raids I assemble.  I have no patience for trouble makers.

First the story of what happened, then what he did.

We downed Domo and the warrior, shaman, hunter shoulder token dropped.  I don't think I have seen one drop this expansion.  Might have been one in T11 but I do not recall.  I know none have dropped in T12.

Everyone in the raid had at least 359 or better shoulders except for three people.  Me (hunter), another hunter and the shaman.  See, no warrior, shaman, hunter tokens drop this expansion, that is why we all need the token.  All three of us where in heroic shoulders.  Oh joy.

The hungerer also dropped.  The rogue already has it so me, the other hunter and the feral druid all rolled on it.  The other hunter won it.

The shaman and I rolled on the shoulder token and I won.

I offered the other hunter the option of the shoulder or the trinket.  He knew of the one item per boss rule and I felt I would give him the choice.  Either one would be an upgrade for me so I really did not care.  I also did this in public, so everyone knew.  We do have rules regarding trades or passes so letting everyone know the offer was required.

He decided to keep the trinket.  Same thing I would have done really.  Trinkets are harder to come by but shoulders we will be replacing (or getting if you do not have a 378) in the new heroics next week.  So he made a good decision.

Any other loot is not part of the equation so no need to mention it.

After the raid was over, we did not get rag down of course being we only had one attempt at him being the raid time was done, most people headed off.

I went to turn in my token, threw my agility gem in it and got my enchant and headed off happy to have my four piece set, even if it will only last for one week.

The next day I got a text from the shaman telling me about someone complaining that I should have never gotten that piece and that I should have passed it to her.  He even "backed up" his reasoning for that by pointing on the loot rules that are on the guild web site that state it should be given to someone that needs it more.

He apparently complained about it so much after I left he even convinced other people I was wrong for taking it.  This is why I now say he deserves a guild kick and a hard one at that.

1) It had nothing to do with him, he was not even in the raid.
2) Quoting rules from the guild site and being wrong while quoting them is bad.
3) Trying to create an issue where there was none is not good for the guild.

What it comes down to is the fact that he is a 16 year old boy and the shaman in question is a female.  So you know how all 16 year old boys think.  Come to her defense and maybe he can woo her.  Silly, I know, but he is a kid, what do you expect.

If he ever decides to run his own guild or raids he is welcome to institute the everyone pass to the one that has breasts rule, but we do not roll that way in my guild.  Everyone is an equal.  We do not give loot to someone just because they are female.  Another reason why adult guilds are better.  16 year old boys tend to think with the wrong head most of the time.

There was one little problem with what he did however.  He did not know the connection between the shaman and myself.  I make extreme efforts to never show any favoritism what so ever so no one that did not already know would ever know at all.

I've been friends with the shaman for a long time.  We are not talking in WoW here.  Her and I have been friends for years before I started WoW.  We do the whole phone thing, going for coffee thing, you get the idea.  Our friendship is not from the game, it just happens to carry into it.

So needless to say, she told me everything he said.  If anything proves I do not give any favoritism that sure as hell does.  So much so that he had no clue who he was talking to because I've never treated her any different from anyone else in the guild to make it appear as if I even knew her outside of game.

It is him trying to create trouble that bothers me most.  That is what I dislike.  He is trying to make drama where there is none and that is what can rip guilds apart.  People like him are poison to guilds.

After talking to her I started to think of a list of reasons that would shoot him down.  I have not said them to him but I thought I would share them here with you, the people that willingly listen to me ramble for some strange reason.

Let me point out, all I really need to say is reason one.  Any argument he has was lost after that one alone. The others just popped to mind to point out how amazingly wrong he was to complain.

1) I won the role.
2) I had not won anything this run, so the 2 per raid limit does not apply.
3) We both had equal shoulders, so it was not a "bigger upgrade" for her.
4) If applying the "bigger upgrade" theory, it got me the 4 piece set, it would have been #3 for her.
5) Applying the what is best for the guild idea, we heal things just fine.  If anything we are over healing rag with three healers.  We need more DPS.
6) I never roll when I am on an alt at all.  My warrior, my priest, my shaman, my druid, my paladin, have all been in firelands.  None of them have ever rolled on one piece of boss loot.  I always pass to others being these are not my mains.
7) I've only missed one raid in two years, she has a 60% attendance rate.
8) If we ever decided to two heal rag, she would be the one healer sitting out and she knows that.
9) She would have offered me the piece even if she won it because in her own words, you are here more than I am and will get more use out of it.

She even said that to him.  She told him that it would be put to better use for me.  She pointed out a lot of the things I said like her attendance and he would not give it up.  He kept pushing about it about how I was wrong about how it was bad for the guild that I "take things for myself" that other people need.

Mind you, I do not consider it taking things for myself.  It is only the second piece of gear that I have even rolled on in firelands that was not from trash on any of my characters.  I usually let everyone else gear up first.  If I ever saw the BoE polearm I would roll on that but I have never seen it drop.

He said to her that I decide who gets gear because of something I said last week when we were on Domo.  Someone had to leave so we bought him in as a fill in and I told him that if the polearm drops he can not roll on it, it is going to our feral druid.

Since firelands came out we, as a guild, have agreed that any of the BoE polearms that drop the feral druid would not roll on and if the one from Domo dropped no hunters would roll on it.  I am sure many guilds did the same thing.  It is fair and it is a well known decision the guild is aware of because of the added bonus that the polearm has for druids.  Just our luck we have never seen either of the two drop.

I am guessing this is where his opinion that I decided who gets loot comes from.  Because we invited him into a fight and I told him that our druid would get the polearm.  In my opinion, if that is his reasoning then he is an immature, selfish, trouble making, useless team member.

I was considering telling the guild leader, who I am sure will read this, that they either kick them from the guild or I leave.  That is a harsh response to things and I will not actually go that far but that does show you how strongly I fell about it.

I will however make it well known, should the event ever come up, that I will not team with him.  He will never get an invite to any raid I assemble and when we do our other teams if he is in the raid they will need to find another tank or healer to fill the hole because I will not be in the same raid with him.

If he asks me why, which I am hoping he will, I will tell him everything I posted here.  I will explain that I do not like people that start trouble for the sake of starting trouble.

I will explain that I play the game for fun and it is not fun to have to worry that some immature person is most likely going to cry over someone winning a roll over him or even worse, cry over rolls that do not even involve him.  Bitch about your bad luck with rolls, complain about your bad luck with rolls, but never start a problem about it because you think one person "deserves" it more then another. 

Sure, some people do deserve it more then others.  In T11 we had a new druid healer gearing up that we got a few nice pieces for right off the bat and she has never raided with us since even though she is still in guild.  I did not think she deserved them back then but she won the roll and that means she won.  My opinion of if she deserved it or not is irrelevant.  This is a casual guild, everyone that helps kill the boss deserves anything they win the roll on.  It is as simple as that.

If we where a hard core raiding guild then you can start talking about who "deserves" gear.  I can assure you that no hard core raiding guild on the face of the earth would say that a player with a low attendance rate and a connection so bad they can not even run addons "deserves" it more than someone with a near perfect attendance rate and a rock solid connection most of the time.

I'll give her all the due respect she deserves however.  She is an amazing healer.  She heals all that stuff with absolutely no add ons with a low frame rate and still manages to stay competitive and avoid mechanics.  I know she spends a lot of time memorizing the fights on you tube because as she says, she needs to react as well as if she has DBMs without actually having it so she has to study it to make sure she does. 

I don't think I could do what she does, raid reaction sure, but healing without a healing addon?  I am spoiled, I don't think I could do that, maybe with mouse overs but she does not even use those.  She heals old school vanilla type healing.  She is an outstanding healer, I can only imagine how good she would be with a good connection and a decent computer.  So credit where credit is due.  But that does not means she deserves something more then someone that won the roll for it.

Again, the thing that gets to me the most about this is that he is trying to create problems where there are none and he is actually swaying people into agreeing with him because he will not give it up.  I don't like trouble makers and I would love to see him gone.

He is just lucky I am not a jerk or I would have kicked him already without even consulting anyone.  I am a fair person, about as fair a person you will ever meet in game.  So I did not kick him even if he deserved it.

What are your opinions?


  1. Some days, even with rules, people make drama. In this cases, there is one thing to remember.

    You won the roll. As Raid Leader, your word is final.

    My only additional comment would be this: talk to him now, point him at this post, and explain to him why you are angry. Not grouping with him has the potential to just cause further drama.

  2. I agree. Talk to him first. You might be incorrect that he is a teenage boy coming to the defense of a helpless female. In his mind, he might honestly believe that an aggressive personality person is taking advantage of a passive personality person, nothing to do with gender or anything like that. I know that sometimes people are just too nice or extremely reluctant to bring up things that they really should. For example, an old tank guildie of mine was the nicest person ever, and when tank loot would drop he would let others take it over him even though it was TANK LOOT, and we basically had to force him to take upgrades.

    Chances are, you are completely right. But let him explain why he feels the way he does first, before deciding you never want to group with him again and potentially causing more guild stress. Remember that while it's crystal clear to you, he doesn't have anywhere near the facts about your/her attendance etc, so it's quite possible that he looked at an isolated incident, thought it looked unfair, and simply stood up for a guildmate. It's possible that once you explain things, he'll go "ah, I see, I didn't know" and it'll be no big deal at all.

  3. I gave you officers the right to /gkick any individual as needed because I trust you folks to not use that power for grins and giggles. If you need to kick someone, do so.

    I have been out the last few days, so I managed to miss all this and as such, I only have your version of what went on, but you know what...that is all I need. You have done nothing to change my trust level in you, so I accept your story as a reasonably accurate accounting of what went on. Don't hesitate, if someone is making drama, advise them with a whisper to not do so anymore, and with continued drama, publicly in guild chat explain that drama is not allowed, it is a kickable offense, and that so and so is now gone. Remove all alts, and be done with it.

    I ain't gonna have my blood pressure raised on account of someone bitching unduly in guild chat.

    Also, even tho I missed out on my try at Majordomo Staghelm, congrats to one and all for getting him down.

    Anon, Grumpy's GL

  4. Oddly enough I never had the chance to talk to him about anything.

    I got online and he was in a TotFW pug with 3 other guild mates. They had someone drop and asked me if I wanted to come. I said, no, I want to level my new hunter some.

    I was not privy to what was said in the raid as I was not there but an officer that was said he dropped group and then quit the guild.

    I had not even seen him or spoke to him since the incident. He did that all on his own.

    Apparently, it seems he wanted drama and when I did not confront him, it pissed him off even more.

    I did not kick him and I was willing to talk to him. He never gave me the chance.

    Not sure what happened, but when he cools down if he ever wants to talk to me I am up for it.