Wednesday, March 20, 2013

LFR Changes I'd Like to See

The LFR is the future and it seems there is no way we can escape it.  So might as well make it better for everyone wouldn't you say?  Here are some changes I would like to see that I believe would make the LFR better for everyone.

10 Man Option:

I've written about this many times and even explained why there will never be a 10 man option.  Doesn't mean I don't want one and it doesn't mean I don't think it would be a good addition.  Sure, the middle of the pack guilds like mine that can blow through the LFR with ease with equally skilled players will choose to do 10 man only and go with all guild, thus making it harder for the lesser skilled players because there is no one there to help them but it would also give those lesser geared players more of an incentive to get better.

If they can not even do the LFR they will have one of two choices.  Get better, or stop doing it.  As long as people with any degree of skill, even middle of the pack normal only guilds like mine, continue to go in there and do all the heavy lifting for them there is no incentive for them to get better.  If they can sit back and do bad and collect loot, why do better?  If they can stand in stupid and get healed through it, why move?

Without the better players in the 25 man version the player base will do one of two things.  Evolve into something worse than it can already be or get better.  Either way it would be a bonus to anyone that is already one of the better players that LFR is a push over for.  We would not need to deal with those people that want everyone else to do the work for them any more and the bad attitudes that follow them as well as having the added bonus that others might actually learn in the environment because they have to learn to get it done because there is no one there carrying them.  This would mean more beginners might actually become raiders because they had to learn.  As it stands now, beginners are being taught this is what raiding is and that is a scary thought.

There would need to be some restrictions of course such as you can only queue for the 10 man with all 10 players.  It would not be a "finder" so to speak.  But it would be a quick way for 10 people scattered all around to go in, collect some loot, have a few laughs and earn some valor and then go back to where they were.  It would be fun.  Fun and LFR are two words that are not often used together but with the 10 man option it could be something you begin to hear all the time.

A 10 man LFR would also have the added effect that smaller guilds from smaller servers could better teach new raiders from that.  I think that would be a huge plus.  I often bring new people along to the 25 man but being we are not really most of the 25 people, there is only so much we can do to control things and test their abilities.  10s would allow that to a much greater degree.

So yes, adding 10 mans would, or could, be very bad for the game, but it would, or could, be very good for the game.  Only one way to find out, and that is to add it.

Walk Ins:

Or at least the ability to queue up and not want outsiders to join.  If we have a guild group of 18 and want to do it with 18 let us do it with 18.  Let us walk into the LFR version of the raid with just 18, collect our loot and valor, and go about our day without having to wait in queue or have others that might actually make it harder with more people because those added people have no clue what they are doing.

I think that having a LFR walk in option would be a huge plus to the game.  Lesser guilds could use that for their raid night and make raid teams to just walk into it.  It would help build community by pugging the LFR version for alts on small servers like mine that have such a small selection of raiders even capable of normal modes.  It would be a great way to recreate the one thing blizzard is lacking more than anything else, community.

Walking in would not be like LFR as in you get 90 valor after three bosses, it would be 30 valor per boss downed.  So you could do 1 or 3 or 5 or 7 or however many you feel like doing.  Walking in would also not have any lockouts and could be reset as often as you like, however the one loot per boss per week would still stand but you would always get 30 valor per boss even if you kill the same boss 10 times in one week.  This would allow people that already did it to help out some under geared or under skilled guild members.

It would also work as an excellent catch up system.  If a guild wants to take my just hit 90 437 item level warlock into ToT LFR they can being they are just walking in.  It would create, as I mentioned, a tighter knit community because people would once again need each other, even if only for this easy content.

It would also allow people to go with the groups they want. Only have 17, screw it, lets do it with 17.  Not to mention all the fun you could have if you were one of those classes that like to solo content.  Being able to walk in would mean you can now solo some bosses you would not be able to solo until much later on normal due to mechanic or gear reasons.  Again, adding more fun to the game for some while not taking any fun away from anyone else in the process.  That, my friends, is the definition of an excellent move when you can add something without taking away from anything while doing it.

A walk in system would also mean you can walk into old LFR raids for transmog, fun or soloing adventures.  While there is only one (2 parts) old LFR in terms of level at the moment, next expansion there will be many of them, so why not let us go back to them instead of how it is now where once we pass it, it is gone, forever.

Functional Banning System:

There needs to be something that locks people out of certain parts of the game and it needs to be used.  Blizzard is so gun shy to ban people because they do not want to lose their subscriptions, so why not just ban them from certain areas.  You go crazy in trade calling everyone names and using every curse I've ever heard and a few I haven't, you get banned from trade, not from the game.  That is what I am talking about and it needs to be added for the LFR.

If someone gets reported multiple times for pulling when they are not the tank, ban them from using the LFR system for 2 weeks.  Make the ban account bound too so they can feel the pain when none of their characters can do it.  Someone goes on a rude tirade in the instance channel, ban them from speaking while in the LFR for a few weeks.  Someone continually comes in as a healer and refuses to heal, well now we refuse to let you queue at all for a few weeks or at the very least remove your ability to queue as a healer for a few weeks.  If you abuse it, you lose it, seems fair to me.

People break the rules because there are no real rules.  There needs to be real rules with real penlites that back those rules up.  If blizzard does not start taking action against the non healers that only queue as a healer because it is quick it is the same as them saying they are fine with that.

While one or two healers doing that might not kill your group, can you imagine pulling the boss with all six healers wanting to DPS instead of healing?  A friend of mine had an LFR where that happened.  I'll admit I did laugh but at the same time I thought this proves why there should be action taken against these people that abuse the system.  Because people see others do it and not get in trouble for it so more and more will do it.  You will agree with me if you ever get a group with all healers DPSing and you can not kick them because they all have kick protection from being kicked so often.

Blizzard needs to create a system to teach these people because no matter how many times we kick them they will just keep doing it because they can queue as healers and healers have a quick queue and sooner or later they will find a group that will carry their sorry asses and that is wrong.  They should not be rewarded for gaming the system, they should be banned, and blizzard is the only one that can fix it by creating a system that will ban them for it, only from using the LFR system, not from the game completely.

Older Raids:

How about adding the older raids to the LFR system?  With the walk in suggestion it would be interesting to start off with but those level locked characters and some leveling characters being able to do level 60 raids at level 60, level 70 raids and level 70, level 80 raids and level 80 and level 85 raids at level 85 would be beyond awesome.  It is hard enough to pug older raids as is, but pug them at level with everyone of the appropriate level would be 100% impossible, at least on most servers if not all.

Adding the older raids, even if they would be super easy with respect to it being LFR and you would expect people of that level to be in leveling gear and not end game gear, could be great fun.  Make is so 60-69 have access to the level 60 raids, 70-79 to the level 70 ones, 80-84 to the level 80 ones and 85-89 to the level 85 ones.

Would it get a lot of use, maybe not, but I am sure it would get some and it would be a nice upgrade to make the LFR system that looks like it is here to stay a part of the entire history of the game instead of something just added later.


If I've said it once I've said it a million times, the LFR is too hard for the people it is intended for.  While it is easy when I go in my guild groups, it is not intended for us.  We are a group of people that will make our way through normals slowly and that is where we should be.  For people like us, that communicate and do have to deal with mechanics that require said communication the LFR is nothing more then a minor obstacle to 90 valor points and filling out a few slots to make our normals easier.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Who it is created for are the people that I would never allow on one of my raid teams.   Like the mage we tested out and did an MV run with that never broke 28K on any fight, or the warlock we gave a shot because we did not have one and she could not break 25K effectively making the mage look good.  Just as a side note to give you an idea about my server, those two where the best of all the people we found when looking to fill the caster DPS role.  I was so glad one of our old players came back.

Those people are the ones that the LFR is made for, so make it for them.  Make it so people doing 25K can manage it with ease.  Make it so healers that can't manage to put out the healing numbered we did while 85 at 90 can heal it.  Make it so tanks that think all their job consists of is do DPS while being beat on and have no idea what mitigation is can tank it.

Honestly, that is who the LFR is meant for and it is basically not designed for them.  Right now I would say it is designed for my guild.  Middle of the pack average.  Just do normals, maybe a rare heroic here and there, so we can run in and have some fun one shotting watered down versions of what we just spent 2 hour wiping on the night before.  Sorry, it should not be like that.

If they lowered the difficulty it would not change a damn thing for organized groups.  We would still go in and one shot everything, no problem.  But it would allow the people it is meant for to have the chance to do the same thing.  How about you design the LFR for the people that the LFR is meant for instead of designing it so groups with communication?

Basically I have no real issues with anything difficulty wise with the exception of things that require communication.  If you need to tell people run from everyone when this happens, attack that one when the other thing happens, stack up for AoE heals, etc, anything that needs any sort of communication needs to be removed.  Everything in looking for raid should be, at the very least, manageable even with a complete group of people that never did the fight before and do not understand the mechanics.

That is the key to difficulty in the LFR.  If it is something you need to communicate you need to remove it.  Or at least make it like they did with crush, so it can not happen more than once every 30 seconds, so basically it just becomes part of the LFR, every 30 seconds it happens.  No fuss, no muss.  There should never be a need to communicate not to stand in the circle.  That is how they should remove the difficulty factor.  Put things that happen on a timer and just happen.  Do not make them depend on if the group communicated things correctly.


Anyone that has ever raided anything outside of LFR will tell you that the trash can be more deadly then the bosses.  Some of ulduar trash took us longer to learn how to clear then the bosses did to learn how to beat them.  Or those dwarves in BWD, we wiped on them 6 times our first time up to them only to one shot the boss the first time we faced it.  Trash in raids has always been a big part of the raiding experience.

But in the LFR is should not be like that.  You are not teaching budding raiders.  You are letting lesser players experience content, get gear and valor.  That is it.  Even the skilled players are there for the same thing, some quick fun, gear and valor.  Remove the entire trash being part of the experience aspect from the LFR.  There is no reason for trash to be anything more than round up mobs and mow them down, just like in a heroic dungeon.  Make it that way.


I think a new loot system for the LFR should be put in place.  This random stuff is annoying, at least to people like me with little luck.  Have a system where when you do not win something the chance to win on the next boss is increased.  So that way no person will ever go forever without a win like my poor priest did last tier doing all 16 LFR bosses three weeks in a row and never winning one piece.  One piece every 5 bosses seems reasonable.  If you get lucky you can get a lot more, but if you do not, you chance to win goes up each boss until the 5th boss when you have a 100% chance to win something and then it starts all over again.

The LFR, for many like myself, is a means to an end.  To fill some missing slots, to gear up alts should I ever decide to do anything with them, to get some valor.  There is no reason to make anyone go an entire tier of the LFR using coins on the same boss every single week and still never getting the item they want.  Yes, I am looking at you sha touched weapon.


A random raid finder would be a  good addition now being we have a nice selection of raids to choose from.  Offer a little more, say 30 extra, valor for doing them as a random.  Even if it can only be gained once per day it would mean that instead of people signing up for 9 different (soon) LFRs they will just do a random.  This will make it faster to assemble groups, using the people in the random to fill out the specific queue people.  You could even offer those incentive baggies, even if I always hated the idea, some people do seem to like it, so you can get people to fill in the role most needed, in recent times that would be a healer.  A random LFR finder might also help not only for faster queue times but when people need nothing from any of them it would make for better runs by possibly getting the higher geared people in the lower ones.

Off Spec Loot:

Allowing people to choose what loot they get when they run could be a double edged sword but it could also help a lot.   While there could end up being fewer tanks and healers because they can go the route of the easier DPS role and still get their tank or healer gear some people might be willing to tank or heal for the quicker queue if they knew they could still get the DPS gear they actually wanted.


In the end all I want is the LFR to be fun and as it is, it isn't.  It is too hard for the masses which makes people bitchy.  It gives people bags of gold all the time which makes people bitchy.  It makes people feel like they have to carry other people which makes people bitchy.  It feels like you wait forever just to be subjected to all of this and getting nothing worthwhile for your time investment which makes people bitchy.  There is no fun factor to the LFR unless you can manage to assemble a group of 25 people to go into it together and do it as a group.  But that is too hard on most servers, hence the reason I go back to my first suggestion, 10 man option.

What changes, additions, etc, would you do with the LFR to make it better?


  1. interesting ideas.

    If I ran LFR - there would be no wait time of more than 10 minutes. After 10 minutes it would start and the toughness of the raid (increase or decrease of the mobs/loot/bosses) would depend on the number and class of people signed up for that LFR encounter.

    Seems simple enough.

    thats all from me today.

    1. Scaling content based on the number of people doing it would be amazing. I am sure it would take a fair deal of work coding side to get something dynamic like that done but I think it would really be worth it.

  2. All very good ideas.

    The trash is ToT is hellish for LFR and some of the bosses require too many people to follow mechanics. As you said, if it requires coordination/communication, it doesn't belong in LFR.

    For the difficulty, and to support 10-man walk-ins, they should nerf everything down by 30% and just have the 10 and 25 be exactly the same encounter. Random groups fill to 25. Walk Ins are whatever size you want. Was doing the new ToT LFR last night. Got into an existing group that was on Ji-Kun. No one really knew the encounter but we tried to coordinate. Took us 5 pulls with coordination and ended up with the 20% buff. Just nerf everything by 30% and forget about the coordination... And get rid of the "wipe the whole raid" mechanics. Balance it such that it is relatively easy for 10 coordinated people following mechanics and for 25 random people not following mechanics. Makes it a great place for raid teams to learn mechanics without a wipe for each screw up.

    If I just need valor, I cycle through the older LFRs to find the shortest queue (usually MSV), so a random option would be great.

    Off-spec loot doesn't effect me but seems like a good idea.

    They changed trinkets to the new RPPM system where proc-chance increases over time if it hasn't procced. Loot should work the same way. Instead of a guaranteed drop off every 5 bosses, it should be off every 5 kills of that boss. That way loot tables aren't a problem. Let's take Jin-Rohk for example, first kill since getting loot = 20% drop chance, second kill = 40%, etc. Resets every time you get loot from the boss. It's not that much data to keep track of so there shouldn't be any excuses.

    Blizz will probably never figure out a proper banning system so that's probably a lost cause.

    For older raids, they could just add a queuing system with minimum LvL and iLvL requirements (heirlooms should count since they're basically lvl appropriate epics); no max LvL restrictions though. No need to change anything else. Basically use it to incorporate a less-coordinate OpenRaids system into the game for xmog/achievements. Include 10/25 for both Normal and Heroic (where applicable). On Convert To Raid, they have a lvl specific raid team that is progressing through the old raids. It's not that difficult because characters, even at lvl, are much more powerful than they used to be.

    1. You mention a flat nerf and I agree. I think a flat nerf would be the way to go, to some extent.

      There are some mechanics that you can nerf all you want and it will still wipe a group and they should not be in LFR.

      It would be interested if they ever added the failure buff to real raids like they have in the LFR. Could you imagine on progression night wiping on a boss 20 times and ending up with a 100% boost in the real raid? It would make it so that basically anyone can do it. I wonder... would something like that ever happen.

      I think, for fun, I would have myself a level locked hunter for each raid tier level and try to get him BiS. That would be great fun in my opinion.

  3. Man, I've wanted a "[ ] Nope, Just Us" option for LFD and LFR since it came out... especially for 5-man content. As things are now, I'm not sure a 5-man hunter group could do a random queue for a heroic even though they'd be perfectly clearable. Same for a 3-man group with a raid-geared dps. Sign me up!

    I'm on the fence about the "remove the wipe the whole raid" mechanics... it would certainly make LFR easier (and I've often wished that things like crush didn't exist in LFR) but at the same time, I do actually view LFR as a viable way to learn general fight mechanics to make it easier to step up to regulars. I know not everyone actually does LFR fights "properly", even when they KNOW the mechanics (I actually know folks who ignore mechanics and in one case I do it myself, the 4th boss of MV... I refuse to stack in front of the first boss, I've died way too many times when it was just me and the tank up there and while floor tanking breaks are occasionally welcome, generally I'd prefer to be playing), but it does make it easier to transition if all of the mechanics are actually there, just less dangerous.

    Having said that, I wouldn't complain if they got rid of those mechanics. And half the trash in HoF and ToT.

    1. A few other comments from further points.

      Blizz has already talked about the possibility of increasing drop odds for BONUS ROLLS (not for main boss drops)... I think that's an interesting approach to take since getting nothing from a bonus token does seem to bug me more than not getting loot off the boss itself. That also means someone running the same boss multiple times a week to use up bonus tokens for a particular piece of loot will be rewarded more quickly... might not be what they WANT, but RNG is still RNG.

      They've also talked about letting you multi-queue for LFR (like when selecting specific dungeons rather than a random). I actually prefer that approach, I'm avoiding HoF whenever possible these days so I'd be queuing for anything but. I don't even need a bonus for doing it.

      One thing I'd do to try and balance out queue times is a bit counter-intuitive and may not actually work but I think it could... don't give insta-queues to anyone who queues as a group with a healer or tank. Enforce a, say, 15m minimum queue time for them. I think the reason why you see 45m or 60m dps-only queue times is because so many dps are jumping the queue by teaming up with a healer or tank - there's no downside to doing that, only upside. I wouldn't be surprised if MOST healers or tanks are queuing along with dps, which just makes hte situation worse for those who only queue as dps. And yes, I'm absolutely making this suggestion from the perspective of a primarily solo dps queuer... but logically, the overall total queue time for everyone running LFR shouldn't change in the long run by doing that, it would just balance it out which should result in shorter solo dps queue times. WTB someone with some queuing theory background to verify. :)

    2. Agreed, by saying "get rid of the "wipe the whole raid" mechanics", I meant that the mechanics should not cause wipes in LFR. The mechanics could still be there but messing up shouldn't be as painful to the whole group.

      New patch just removed some trash from ToT LFR! Have to see how much but it's a start.

    3. I agree with the 5 man thing, we should be able to go understaffed it we want and I am absolutely sure a 5 man hunter team can clear all dungeons with little or no effort. I am sure most bosses could even be two manned with a blood DK tank and a hunter.

      I too view the LFR as a way to learn some mechanics, but like the wind or the sound rings in LFR, they will not kill you so you can get hit and use them as a learning tool so when you enter the real raid you can avoid them. But crush is a different story. You get hit by a ring or knocked back on your run by the wind and usually you only hurt you. You trigger crush over and over you are hurting everyone. That is what I means about raid wipe mechanics. One person should not have the ability to wipe the entire raid because they are did not know, are just bad, or want to cause trouble.

      I would like the multi-queue for the LFR so you can queue up for a few at once. That would mean one wait time because you would be first in line for the next one when you got out.

      People are doing like someone in my guild with 2 account does. He queues with his healer for his second account to get in fast then just closes the healer application to make it look like the healer DCed. He is is instantly and he is happy.

      I really should active my second account and do that too. It is a brilliant idea. Bad part is, I would feel bad doing it. But after a night like last night where I waited an hour to get in the new LFR, got in on the last boss, wiped 3 times before killing it and then needed to wait another 1 and 20 minutes to get into it again so I could do the first two bosses, no wipes on those, it shows the system is horribly broken. It took me 3 and a half hours to do one LFR because of two insane wait times to do one thing? Yeah, something is wrong.

    4. Well, here's an idea for LFR raid wipe mechanics... scale them back in terms of raid damage but put a stacking debuff on whoever triggers it so the damage caused by the ability to that person increases over time... 200% per application, where 2 or 3 stacks will one-shot the person the next time the mechanic happens.

    5. As long as it only kills that person so their bad play does not ruin it for everyone else I'd be all for it. It might actually be a better way to teach people, like that, then just letting them fail.