Tuesday, January 28, 2014

One Hunters Worries About the Ability Bloat Issue

I seriously doubt I am the only hunter out there that has some worries about how blizzard is going to handle the ability bloat issue.  And it is not just a hunter issue, it is an all class issue.  But of course I have a special interest in the hunter angle of it.  Not only because my main character is a hunter but because hunters are the poster boys and girls for the ability bloat issue.

Having played all classes I can say with absolute certainty that no other class of no other spec has had to deal with the ability bloat issues that hunters have had to deal with.  Ability bloat might, just might, mean something entirely different to them however.  For hunters it does not mean we have too many buttons.  Not at all.  It means our abilities all seem the same, at least the damage dealing ones.  That is why it seems like bloat.  Why have three different abilties that all hit for roughly the same thing?  Three abilties that hit for the same amount is bloat.  You could easily just have one ability you hit three times instead of having to hit three different ones.  That is what hunter bloat is about.

And that is where this one hunter is worried about the ability bloat issue because it seems blizzard is more concerned about the number of buttons we have and not as concerned about what those buttons actually do.

Back in the mists beta blizzard decided that it was time to trim down some of the bloat, before bloat was even an issue, and if we can learn anything from recent history it is that blizzard does not understand where the issue of bloat is with hunters based on what they removed and tried to remove.

They attempted to remove abilities like eyes of the beast, immolation trap and concussive shot.  As it turns out eyes of the beast was lost and has been greatly missed by some hunters.  Immolation trap is gone and few if any hunters even notice its absence.  And concussive shot faced a great amount of pressure from the community to not see it removed. 

Many players, myself included as I believe I was first to post about it when I found it on the beta, fought against its removal.  I even made a post as a heartfelt goodbye to one of the true signatures of being a hunter, the concussive shot.  As I said then I will say again, the expression "if you can kite it, you can kill it" only holds true because of concussive shot and kiting is a signature of being a hunter because any good hunter should be able to do it. 

As it turned out I was not the only one to feel that way and in the weeks that followed my post was linked around and other hunters put pressure where it was needed and low and behold concussive shot was added back in.  But not after blizzard tried to keep it gone, gone for good, by making it a glyph that turned arcane shot into concussive as well.  It just would not be the same and the hunter community, this great hunter community, would not and could not stand for it.  With enough pressure blizzard finally realized that they were wrong and in a later beta patch they added concussive shot back to the great joy of many, myself included.

This was all blizzards attempt to deal with ability bloat before it actually became an issue.  They might be a little slow sometimes and somewhat off base, but it seemed someone there at the offices noticed there were just too many buttons floating around, more so for hunters.

The problem was that they were focusing on removing the wrong abilities.  Them addressing the ability bloat issue again means there is a great chance that they will once again focus on removing the wrong abilities.

While eyes of the beast was an extra button, it was not part of ability bloat.  Lets face it, how often did you use it during a fight?  How about never.  Maybe you used it to pull back in the day but the times of using it in BRD to do some pulls many many years ago no one had used it for that in a ages.  It was just a fun thing to do once in a while and it was not really what anyone would call ability bloat.  Yet for some unexplained reason blizzard thought it was a bloat issue and removed it.

Immolate trap could have very well been considered ability bloat.  It was a damaging ability and as such it could very easily be considered something, by some players, that they needed to use.  In the end however it was one of those things you rarely used outside of setting it in place during the pull or during a moment of down time when there was nothing else you could do because it was not a DPS increase to have it as part of your rotation.  Because of its useful only during downtime purpose it is one of those abilities that did not see many, or any, hunters fighting its removal.

Concussive shot, as I mentioned, was a staple of the hunter tool kit.  The community fought for it and blizzard realized that it is something that should not be removed or turned into a glyph.  Chalk one up for the good guys.

But seeing what was targeted during the mists beta leaves me worried about what could be targeted during the warlords beta.  Will blizzard once again go after abilities that are not part of the problem like they did with eyes of the beast, immolate trap and concussive shot?

There are a few abilities I can see being put on the block right off the bat that I would not really like to see go.

Snake Trap:  Lets face it, with the exception of a short time during the mists beta where snake trap was a huge DPS increase to use it has been a mostly useless trap.  Used more for PvP to get people to accidentally target a snake when they tab, maybe, more than for their damage, snake trap like immolate before it only filled the role of a trap a hunter would throw when there was down time.  However, it has some uses, even if most hunters would not even notice it.  I don't think, check that, I know, I would have never been able to solo bloodlord mandokir without it when I first did.

See, that is the perfect ability to fit into the tool kit.  An ability that has occasional and rare uses but it is not part of the standard rotation.  It is not part of the bloat problem. While you can argue that its extremely limited use means it can be removed I can also argue that because of its extremely limited use it is not part of the problem and should be left alone.

Scare Beast:  With the exception of the occasional druid in PvP that I surprise by casting a fear on them and get them wondering how the hell a hunter feared them the uses for scare beast are few and far between.  I can only recall one use I have had for it over the past 3 or so years and that was at the beginning of cataclysm.  Before the nerfs that changed beauty to only have two pups on heroic and cc no longer pulling that fight could be brutal on a group that did not have cc.  In one run I was in someone said, "hunter, cc the dogs".  I said okay and trapped one, wyvern stun another and cast scare beast on the third one only too hear someone in the group say, "you've got to be kidding me".  Outside of the humor factor of it I doubt there were many hunters in the game that would have ever even thought of doing what I did.  Scare beast is not exactly on the hunter priority list and I would not be surprised of 50% or more even knew about it.

That too falls into the category of a great tool kit ability.  It is something we will rarely, very rarely, use but it has its purpose even if we do not have many places we can use it.  So as I said before while you can argue that its extremely limited use means it can be removed I can also argue that because of its extremely limited use it is not part of the problem and should be left alone.

Distraction Shot:  Any hunter that has ever soloed, raided, or just flat out played and used his/her brain once in a while has found a use for this ability.  Blizzard might just look at it as why would a hunter need a taunt, they are not a tank.  I disagree.  Even if this is one of those abilities I keep bound in my PvE set, unlike snake trap and scare beast, it is not exactly like it is something I use often.  But I do have a use for it.

This is one of those abilities that has a lot of uses, it really does, and maybe because of that blizzard might consider it part of the ability bloat issue just like they did with concussive shot but it is not a part of the problem.  Just because I waste a key bind on it doesn't mean it is part of the bloat issue. It is just a rarely used utility in the hunter toolkit and should not be taken away.

Master's Call: This is one of those abilities that I believe every single hunter should have bound and if they are like me have a macro for it to cast it on your mouse over.  I have had various fights this very expansion where I found a use for this ability either it be on myself or on others.  So being I might, or could, use it in as many as 10% of the fights it might be considered something that is part of the bloat.  Part of those abilties I need to use during a fight.  It is not, it is utility.  I could wait for a healer to dispel me instead of removing a slow or root myself.  But why add the pressure on them to handle something I can handle myself.

This is an extremely useful ability and I fear, like concussive the beta before it, that this ability might be on the chopping block during the warlords beta because blizzard seems to love to cut out anything that they think might be part of the problem and if they see hunters using this occasionally, might as well remove it, so it is one less ability they need to use occasionally.  No thank you, the time we use it, we need it, it is part of our tool kit, leave it be.

Those are just a few examples of things that could very well be targeted by blizzard.  Those are things that should not be removed.  And even more importantly, those are things that are not part of the ability bloat issue.

Blizzard just does not understand the ability bloat issue, at least not as far as it pertains to hunters.  We like our tool kit.  We do not mind having 60 buttons we might use once each raid tier, or even once each expansion, outside of PvP that is.  What we have an issue with are the rotational buttons, the ones we need to use each and every single fight, or at least most of them.

Not saying the hunter rotation is hard.  It is not really what anyone would call close to feral druid advanced rotation hard, but what is?  If a hunter is always hitting something they will do okay.

Let me repeat that for emphasis, if a hunter is always hitting something they will do okay.

That is where the problem is.  The fact it feels as if we have 30 buttons we need to hit is not the problem, because it just feels like that, there really aren't 30 buttons to hit.  The fact that all the abilties seem to hit for the same amount.  That is the problem.

When you can just spam buttons hitting anything that is available and do okay you know there is a problem.  The problem is not ability bloat, the problem is ability balance.  Hitting the right buttons in the right order at the right time does not seem to be a large enough boost to see a marked difference between someone that just hits anything.

Sure, it would be nice if we had a rotation like rogues or elemental shaman or shadow priests where we have very few buttons and very few mistakes we could make with them but when we hit them in the right order at the right time we can see a marked increase over just hitting them in any order.

Blizzard scares me talking about ability bloat, it makes me think what abilties do I love having as a hunter that they might take away in the name of bloat.  I don't want anything taken away, nothing needs to be taken away.  The rotation just needs to be redesigned to matter once more.

In the end, this is one hunters worrying, it is me worrying we will end up losing a bunch of buttons, ones we might use only once a year, but things we like to have, and we will be left in the same place we are now, with a rotation that does not reward execution as well as it should when that is where the bloat problem is, not in our utility.  I just hope blizzard realizes that masters call is not the problem, the damaging abilities are.


  1. Hey thanks! Sincerely mean it. Please do post on those other things you use so I have an idea on how to use them. I never use Masters call, or distraction- not that maybe I needed to use them, but in actual practice, never knew what in the heck for. As far as your trick in controlling those 3 dogs - I do it all the time when flocks of birds attacks me or I miscalculate and hit the dang button barrage button. I love scaring things. But I did not know (or should I say rememebr) that druids can be scared too while in cat or bear. I wonder if shamans if in wolf form can be scared? later gator.


    1. Barrage is famous for pulling every single thing in the zone that you had no intention of pulling. I do not use it out in the world, ever.

      I can not honestly say I ever recall trying it on a shaman in ghost wolf. I would suspect it would work. I should test it out.

      Masters call can be used on you, or anyone else, to remove a debuff that slows, snares, or otherwise impairs your movement. There are a few things it does not work on, but it seems to work on most things. I love that ability.

    2. Master's Call is useful in a lot of encounters. For example, I remember using it in ToT on Iron Qon a lot to remove the slow he causes. It also worked on the "turn to stone" ability used by the trash in MSV before Will of the Emperor.

    3. It has a whole mess of uses. I love it. And you can use it on others which makes it that much better.

  2. Crap, had a full post ready to go and accidentally clicked the mouse thumb button and lost it. Ah well.

    Long story short - I believe their focus is on rotational bloat, not utility bloat, so fewer similar rotational abilities going foward (like Black Arrow / Serpent Sting for hunters, for example... I'd get rid of BA and bake the LnL proccing into SeS with a shortish ICD, get rid of auto-refresh or scale it back (2s added per CoS, maybe)). Most classes could use something similar... arms warriors don't need all of slam, overpower and heroic strike as rage spenders, either... HS has been pretty much gutted by now, time to lose it. Warriors also don't need 3 different movement abilities (charge, intervene, heroic leap), just bake intervene into charge (charge a hostile, intervene a friendly) and you saved a button (or having to make a macro).

    I fundamentally disagree with you on the bulk of your post, though. Those rarely used abilities (by few players AND in few circumstances) should also be cut or modified to be more useful, either they're worth having or they aren't, period, and I see zero benefit arguing to hold on to an ability that you use once per year (your last paragraph) or even once per instance. If there's a scenario that requires something that most hunters won't even think of and that's the only solution then the scenario is the problem. If there are other ways around it, which is generally going to be the case, then that's just another reason why the niche hunter ability isn't necessary.

    Since I have the most recent progression experience on my monk I'll use that as an example. Here are lists of the abilities that I use semi-rotationally, ones I use situationally (rotationally on specific fights) and ones that I use rarely, both now and where I'd like to see things stand post-cull... after the cut!

    1. Current semi-rotational: Jab, Expel Harm, Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick, Rising Sun Kick, Spinning Crane Kick, Chi Wave (talent), Spear Hand Strike, Roll, Flying Serpent Kick, Tigereye Brew, Fists of Fury, Xuen (talent), SEF, Energizing Brew, Touch of Karma, Fortifying Brew.

      Current situational: Crackling Jade Lightning, Leg Sweep (talent), Provoke, Healing Sphere, Paralysis, Detox.

      Current Rarely: Nimble Brew, Disable, Transcendance, Zen Meditation, Grapple Weapon, Touch of Death, Resuscitate, Spinning Fire Blossom

      Ones I'd cut without reservation for PvE purposes, at least:
      Fists of Fury (I'd make Leg Sweep baseline for the AoE stun, otherwise I don't like FoF as a rotational ability, too risky)
      Expel Harm (make a glyph to give Jab a self-heal if you're under 50% health with a 30s ICD and you're golden)
      Tiger Palm (bake the 30% armpen into RSK)
      Energizing Brew (minimal dps increase, I'd just toss it)
      Crackling Jade Lightning (crappy dps, mostly useful to stockpile chi while at range... most melee don't have an equivalent, though, so shouldn't be much downside in just chopping it)
      Spinning Fire Blossom (ditto)
      Touch of Death (it just isn't necessary, significantly more of a flavour thing than an actually necessary ability... it isn't even on my click bar at this point)

      Disable, Grapple Weapon, Zen Meditation and Nimble Brew could be cut although I have no particular objection to them sticking around. ZM in particular is an anti-dps ability since you can't dps while channeling, I'd consider making that one Mistweaver-only.

      I wouldn't object to losing SEF but it's grown on me a bit over time, especially once I found an add-on to track it... I'm still amazed that there's basically no in-game tracking on that ability. I'd be okay either way.

      My revamped Monk list.

      Semi-rotational: Jab (with optional heal), Blackout Kick, Rising Sun Kick (with baked TP), Spinning Crane Kick, Chi Wave, Spear Hand Strike, Roll, Flying Serpent Kick, Tigereye Brew, Xuen (talent), SEF, Touch of Karma (THIS is the type of ability you should be fighting for, not Master's Call), Fortifying Brew.

      Situational: Leg Sweep (baseline), Provoke, Healing Sphere, Paralysis, Detox.

      Rare: Transcendance, Resuscitate.

      Done. :)

    2. what type of monk are you? Just wondering - if you are teh same as what i am (and I dont remember : ( ) then I will look at waht you use and see if it makes any sense to me and try it out : )

      -roo (on my lvl 84 monk she is)

    3. I've done that too R, more times than I would like to admit.

      Maybe, using your warrior example, give it charges, like they gave deterrence charges. So instead of having 3 abilities, have one ability with 3 charges.

      I dropped FoF from my monk. Still have it bound and all, but it just does not seem worth the time spent doing it. At least is 99% of the situations.

      Even your trimmed down version of the monk still has way to make rotational abilities. Even if I do believe that monks have one of the easiest rotations, it is still a lot of BS to deal with. The damage dealing abilties need to be limited. You can keep as many situational ones as you want. They are not used all the time and they are what separate the good from the bad players. A good hunter knows if he gets caught in a sand trap on council he can get himself out with master call. A bad hunter waits for a healer and then blames the healer. So I disagree. Masters call is worth fighting for, any good hunter would tell you that. Only the ones that plan to blame the healer wouldn't fight for it.

    4. Crap, lost that reply as well but your web form ate it.

      Quick and dirty, where I ended up isn't too many buttons, IMO. 4 rotational buttons (chi builder, chi spender, nuke, free with cooldown), 2 offensive cooldowns (TeB/Xuen), 2 defensive cooldowns (ToK/FB). Roll, FSK and SHS will stick around because all melee have interrupts and I suspect most/all monks use the movement abilities regularly. I *might* consider replacing Roll with FSK for WW monks, put it on the same charge system as Roll and remove the damage from the landing. Basically just a longer/interruptable version of Roll.

      The abilities in the other categories are pretty minimal (compare that list to the 53 mentioned by Jaeger below, which he DOESN'T consider bloated) and are all quite different from each other, there's no real overlap between them. Those types of abilities don't bug me as long as you don't have 30 of them to worry about.

    5. You are having one of "those" days aren't you?

      Back in wrath when I did some PvP once in a while I had a specific set up just for PvP which included a great deal of things I would never touch in PvP. I had almost 100 macros and key binds.

      If you PvP there is a lot of bloat. Tons and tons of bloat. For PvE I do not think it is all that bad.

      For nazgrim, throw binding shot and flare on binds. For thok throw widow venom on a bind. Etc. All little utility things that might not have much use normally, but if you rotate them as needed it is awesome to have them.

      I have always had 2 key binds that I rotate what goes in them on a per fight basis. I would put my abilities, the rocket pack from loot ship, the extra action button, etc, in those spots as needed.

      Having 30 utility buttons is not a problem. Knowing which ones to use might be for some. But in my experience I have rarely, as in extremely rarely, needed to add a 3rd bind just for a fight. 2 rotating utility slots is usually enough.

      I do not consider that bloat. Personally of course.

    6. It's shaping up that way, yep. I should probably go home early before I accidentally stab myself with a pen...

      Maybe the word bloat is the problem... I define it in this context as "too many abilities" whether talking rotationally or in general.

      Yeah, a skilled player can certainly rotate abilities like that (my only equivalent is that I'll alternate my "floater" hotkey between interrupt and SEF depending on the fight, I normally have interrupt in there, on fights where I'll use SEF I swap that in and have to manually click interrupt... sub-optimal but I doubt anyone but me has noticed it). A class toolkit has to work for everyone, though, not just the top x%.

      Ask yourself what the long-term impact would be if specific abilities were lost. Flare? Binding Shot (and isn't that a talent? I don't mind these types of abilities being optional)?

      No class needs 30 utility buttons. That's my point and I think it's Blizzard's point as a consolidation of the feedback they've been getting over the years. That's the "hunters have too many buttons" brigade.

      Here's an exercise... for all non-rotational buttons, you're only allowed to keep an ability if you cut an ability... so you'll get to keep half. Which half do you keep, which half do you cut?

    7. Bloat can also mean something different to everyone. If I am used to using 8 different rotational abilities it is not bloated, but when they added 3 to it at the beginning at the expansion it sure felt like that.

      So the word could be part of the problem.

      In the long run, it would take away some of the good little things I have gotten sued to doing losing stuff like flare, but it would not kill me. However something like masters call would be a great loss. Just the same, but probably not nearly as much, as losing concussive would have been and that is why I fought so hard against losing that back in the mists beta.

      So I would lose flare to keep masters call.

  3. I took an inventory of all of my BM hunter abilities. 53 total including all the available non-passive talents.

    The abilities that could be considered as ability bloat for BM are:
    1. Level 60, 75, and 90 talents - change as many as possible to passives
    2. Rapid Fire - could be SV or MM only for example

    That's it. Nothing else is bloat. The remaining abilities are either key BM rotational abilities or simple utilities that don't cause bloat.

    I'd also like Blizz to follow through with what they've been saying for a while and remove some of the excessive CC from the game, but that's not related to bloat.

    1. I can think of one ability that BM can lose. Arcane shot. Just remove the cooldown of kill command and make that its focus dump ability instead of arcane.

      Also, ditch serpent sting for BM. It really serves no purpose. Add the DPS that it would get from ticking into cobra.

      This would then allow the abilties to be a little different, damage wise, and create a more fluid rotation.

      Be worried about blizzard saying they want to remove the excessive CC. That does not mean only CC, it means everything that is utility.

    2. There's rotational bloat and then there's simply ability bloat... most of those 53 don't result in rotational bloat but they DO contribute to significant ability bloat. There are just too many abilities. Basically, hunters have too MUCH utility, I'd rather see each class have a similar (smaller than hunter) level of utility. 15 abilities, maybe. Hunters have enough other advantages without also needing to have 85% of the possible utility available to other classes.

      Going through the same process for BM that I did for my Monk above (but with bonus brevity):

      Rotation: CoS, SeS, ArS, KC, FF, BW, KS, Glaive Toss

      I think that's it for rotational abilities you'd hit every minute or less. That's 8 abilities for a single-target rotation... I got my monk down to 4 (including a talent so it's fair to include GT above) and @GE thought that was too many (but while 4 is too many for monks, apparently 6 is fine for BM hunters even if SeS and ArS are removed... ;) ). I think 4-5 is the right number for a rotation, especially if the AoE rotation only differs by a button or so (it does for hunters, replacing ArS with MS).

      For the ~40 or so "other" buttons, get it down to 15, including individual traps, across all specs and that'll be a starting point. Focus on needs, not wants or "doesn't hurts". Do you need Tranq? (wouldn't it be better if mobs just didn't enrage?) Widow Venom? Eagle Eye? Camouflage? Master's Call? Scare Beast? I'm not suggesting you don't use them now, just that you'd make do just fine without them. Things like Misdirection and traps (minus snake) and aspects (which could also be cut) I'd probably keep in but the others are ripe for cutting IMO. Is it possible that your ability to do things that most other classes can't do at all might be hampered a bit in the process? Sure, and that's probably a necessary side-effect, too.

    3. All hunter utility is personal utility. I would argue, and will, that hunters need more utility. Hunters are completely useless in a raid. All they bring is DPS. Sure they can do some little things here and there but other classes can do all the same things and do them better because they also bring raid wide utility. Like a rogue has a smoke bomb, a warrior has his banners, etc. Hunters have... nothing.

      Hunters are not, have not, and most likely will not, be in a good place for a very long time. Their ability bloat is just a minor part of the issue.

      I do agree however that there are too many abilties. Do you recall my opening rotation I posted for BM when the expansion started when we still had readiness? Holy mother of god. We had 24 things to do before we even started thinking about a rotation. Now "that" was ability bloat.

      It has been trimmed down considerably with the removal of readiness. No doubt about that. But there are some more things that can be removed.

      3-5 buttons as main rotation are good. I only say hunters are fine because I am used to it, doesn't mean that a new player will not be overwhelmed.

      They need to take the things like glaive toss and dire beast off the GCD so they can be macroed, lower their damage to compensate, and you could easily fit that into a much nicer rotation.

      Also things like remove arcane from BM and make KC the focus dump, remove it from MM and make Aimed the focus dump, remove black arrow from SV and make serpent sting trigger LnL. Stuff like that could give the specs more individual feeling and slim things down some.

      But any hunter that was playing a hunter when we had a 24 button opening rotation will tell you, we are fine. Where we are now compared to where we were is a great place to be.

    4. You're actually making the point... since hunters have so MUCH utility, none of it can be particularly POTENT. It's spread too thin. If you can cut the abilities back in number, Blizzard can buff them in strength.

      (same argument you've used when talking about the hunter rotation... 8 buttons that all do about the same damage, it would be more interesting if you killed 2 abilities and buffed 2 of the remaining ones to actually make them more worth hitting than the others)

      I'd argue that I use more utility when I'm on my hunter than I do on other classes... MDing incoming adds to a tank, either directly or via dropping one of those fire trap thingies to get 'em on the way so I can stay on my primary target... dropping one of those AoE frost trap thingies to make add wrangling easier or for kiting...

      The only equivalent on my monk is a very occasional leg sweep... bats on Tortos was the only time that comes to mind that was a must-do.

      And yeah, Readiness was a horrible ability... yet many hunter complained when it was taken away. To me, that was an identical reaction to a lot of what I'm seeing here. I don't know whether it's just familiarity or momentum or what but the affection that seems to be in place for very occasional abilities is kind of baffling.

      As for macros, that's one of the prime areas for cutting... abilities that are macrod (like cooldowns) should just be consolidated entirely, they don't NEED to be separate abilities. Abilities should be unique and useful and worth pushing on their own merit.

      And yeah, I'm with you on those rotational changes... but use the same thinking when you look at utility buttons. You don't have to do everything... you just personally need to do enough well to succeed as a group. As long as the revamped abilities for all classes have that goal, it should end up fine.

    5. Now that, a trade off, would make a lot more sense. If we get stuff cut but other stuff boosted because we lost something, it would ease the sting of losing something.

      Hunter mentality. We must so everything. We are the best class in the game. ;)

  4. The challenge with solving the ability bloat problem is that Blizzard has to remove spells that you actually use on a frequent basis.

    Most of the utility shots don't qualify or are too unique and useful to get rid of.

    It really needs to come down to rotational shots.

    1. There are some things it can change as far as rotation goes. (see reply above) The bloat, as it is, is not really horrible even if could be adjusted some to make it better. It is more, in my opinion, that no matter what button I hit I hit for the same amount. That needs to be fixed.

      I also think, which is probably against what most hunters believe, that auto shot damage needs to be reduced, at least 50%. So our actual shots can feel stronger.

      They are going to remove those utility and situational abilties thinking it is helping with bloat. Mark my words. They do not understand what the problem is. They think stuff like masters call is our bloat issue.

  5. @R

    I'm sorry, but I did ask you what type of Monk or you. And maybe you didn't think it was for you but it was.

    I am interested because of how you listed what you do, would be helpful to me. I still dont remember what type I am, but that doesn't matter. I know I use agility. Thank you in advance.

    1. He is a windwalker, the DPS spec.

      The 2 specs that use agility are windwalker and brewmaster, brewmaster is the tank spec.

      I personally like brewmaster. WW is nice and easy and, as mentioned, can be extremely simplified.

    2. Sorry, I did actually reply to that in my original response that the web form munched and forgot for my second attempt. I'm Windwalker / dps, as @GE mentioned.

    3. You are really having a bad day with the reply system here R. lol

    4. thanks! thats me too, I think. that means we use agility right? so if thats so and that the type of gear Ihave, mucho appreciated. I wll follow what you have set up and see if that makes a difference for me when I finish levelign up my mage. :D


    5. Yeap, agility. And being there is no difference between tank agility and DPS agility, you can use any agility leather you find.