I've bought up this welfare gear topic before but thinking about the new upgrade system to gear it has me thinking about it again. People like to call point/emblem gear welfare gear and I've often stated that those people are about as off base on their assessment as a penguin would be sun bathing in the Bahamas.
If spending points is "welfare" to those people that do not understand the definition of the word, what is upgrading gear? Being you will use valor points to upgrade it would that mean they are welfare upgrades?
There is no difference between someone buying the valor legs because it is an upgrade or upgrading the raid legs with valor. Both people saw an upgrade, worked to earn some valor, and got the upgrade they needed.
I think that upgrading gear with valor points just proved my point for me. Valor gear is earned gear. Raid gear is for the instant gratification crowd that just wants to kill a boss and collect loot, no additional work required.
Lets just look at the facts. Take a pair of pants that cost 2250 to buy with valor.
How much work would it take to get them:
Daily quests (without valor of the ancients) : 450 daily quests
Daily quests (with valor of the ancients) : 300 daily quests
Dungeon (one per day only) : 29 dungeons at one per day
Scenarios (one per day only) : 57 scenarios at one per day
Raid Bosses (before buff) : 90 kills
Raid Bosses (after buff) : 57 kills
As you can see, when it comes to buying gear there is no easy way to get it. It is going to take a fair deal of work and a fair deal of time. Added to that, you can only get 1000 valor per week so you would be limited on how fast you can get things.
A raider can get a full set of gear while raiding all in one week with some luck, because it is freebie gear you do not need to work for as loot always drops from bosses. Raid gear and its guaranteed drops that do not limit you to how quickly you can gear up is for the instant gratification crowd that does not believe gear should be earned, it should be lucked into when killing something you were going to kill even if it dropped nothing for you anyway.
For the valor gear people they have to earn it but have an artificial wall put in to slow them down so that even if they do everything they can in game and work their asses off as in doing every daily every day, all raid bosses, and running dungeons and scenarios until their eyes bleed, they can not get it any faster as they are capped at 1000 per week. Best case would be to mix and match a little of each and cap each week and still wait 3 weeks to get your new purple pants.
Valor gear is welfare gear?
Welfare my ass, that is hard work. 450 daily quests are not just going to do themselves
Raid gear is welfare gear if people really feel the need to use the word for something. You kill a boss and get your 40 (was 25) valor. That is your pay for doing the job of killing it. The loot that drops off of it is bonus stuff, as in extra stuff you get for doing something you were going to do anyway. If you use a coin you can even win two things instead of just one but at least you had to earn the coin to use it. Getting loot off a boss you have already been paid for, in terms of valor as we already recognize that as the currency for gear, is welfare gear
Now I know many people will never agree with me and will continue to call valor gear welfare gear. I will just respectfully say we can agree to disagree. But that does not change the fact that having upgrades for gear has to change the perspective of some of them on valor gear as once you upgrade a piece of gear it is now valor gear. It is no longer a raid piece, it is a piece that could not exists if it were not for valor.
I wonder if those people that like to call valor gear welfare gear will consider themselves as walking around with welfare upgrades? Perhaps someone will say to them, nice welfare upgrades you got there and they will be sure to respond, I earned this gear raiding and worked my ass off to upgrade it.
I will silently sit back and laugh and think, you did not earn it raiding, you got lucky with loot that drops from something you were going to kill anyway even if nothing dropped for you. And how if you worked your ass off to upgrade it, but someone that worked their ass off to buy it, is theirs welfare and not yours?
The community, on average, is not smart enough to realize that valor gear is the only gear (outside of PvP gear) that you actually earn in the game so they will not be capable of realizing that their upgrades come from the same resource that the other persons gear comes from, valor. If one is welfare, so is the other. You can't have it both ways.
Lets say you are in best in slot in every slot and you upgrade your gear with valor. Does it now become welfare gear because you spent valor on it? I would be willing to bet those insecure people that have to put everyone that is not as good as them or not in a guild as good as theirs down for using their valor on gear when they used their valor on upgrades when both do the exact same thing, upgrade a piece you have. The only difference is one was BiS and one was not even close. But valor was used for the same thing in both cases, an upgrade.
Valor is currency, earned currency, and what you spend it on doesn't matter. Upgrades or gear, you earn them either way. Maybe all those uninformed people that keep calling valor gear welfare gear might begin to learn the value of work and earning something when they want to upgrade their gear. When they realize that earning valor is not as easy as looting a boss you were going to kill anyway and getting your loot when they now need to actually work to get valor to upgrade it putting them in the same boat as the people that bought valor gear in the fist place. Needing valor for their gear.
I wonder what the shock to their system will be like when they are limited as well. Instead of just winning gear and putting it on and letting the instant gratification moment bring a smile to their face they now need to earn 1500 valor to upgrade that piece and unless they have some stocked up they will not be able to upgrade it instantly, like they have become used to having it ready all at once being when it comes to raid gear it is as simple as pick it up and put it on, no long drawn out work involved.
Now it will take them two weeks and a lot of work if they want to upgrade the piece they just got as a drop. It is suddenly hard work. It is no longer win gear and do the gem, enchant, reforge thing, they now need to earn, work for it if you will, 1500 valor to upgrade that piece of gear. It is no longer good enough as is. A shock to the system of a person that has been playing the lazy route to loot since point/emblem gear was introduced.
Someone that is trying, actually trying to be the best they can be, like people grinding valor to buy gear that they can not get otherwise try to get the best they can in the one way available to them, the raider that used to just get their drops and run with it now need 1500 valor for every single raid piece they get. If they want to give the appearing they are trying to be the best they can, you can judge that by how many of those BiS pieces they actually worked their asses off to upgrade.
In the end I would have a lot more respect for someone that has all valor gear over an all raid geared player that is not upgraded because the valor decked out person worked their ass off for that gear and the raid geared person with few or no upgrades is just lazy and only has gear because he got lucky enough to get a drop off a boss.
The valor gear player is my type of player, they will do whatever it takes to have the best gear they can get even if they are not raiding or not lucky with drops. They will work as hard as they can to be as best geared as they can. I like players that give 100%. Just sitting around waiting on a raid drop screams of the lazy instant gratification crowd, you know the type, they are the first ones to say that someone else has welfare gear.
So whenever you hear someone use the words "welfare gear" when referencing valor gear point out to them that if they really believe that they should not upgrade their gear with welfare upgrades or they will be just as bad as those people in that ~shutters~ welfare gear.
Will the thoughts on valor gear change now that the raiders that used to say they do not need valor gear now need the valor, for their gear?
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Because wiping for hours on a boss to learn the encounter isn't work its welfare? This is by far the biggest strawman I've ever seen you set up and knock down.
ReplyDeleteLook valor gear isn't welfare epics but neither are raid epics good grief.
If you consider raiding work you should really rethink raiding. That is the fun part of the game even when wiping all night. Winning loot is only a bonus.
DeleteI guess it all depends on your perspective. If you consider raiding work then you will say you worked for your gear.
DeleteI personally like to raid and I raid to kill stuff because it is fun. If I win loot awesome, if I don't no big deal I will kill it again next week easier than I killed it this week.
I would rather the easy route to killing mobs to get loot than grinding valor all day long every day.
Like I said, perspective. Raiding gear is the easy route to loot.
I think that's the point. Valor gear never should have been considered welfare gear.
ReplyDeleteI think it'd be interesting to see the stat breakdown on "why people raid?". I never raided for gear; it was a nice bonus to get gear; but I was there to have fun with the raid team. People, who just wanted gear or complained about not getting gear during the raid, really annoyed me.
I think that gear should all be purchased or crafted. From a game design and immersion perspective, having a sword drop from a boss that uses a big hammer just doesn't make sense. I'd rather we 'roll' on the scraps of broken armor and weapons so that we could take it back and have it crafted into epic gear by craftsman (preferably, other players). And be paid a 'bounty' (valor points) for each kill that we could trade at special vendors for epic gear (valor gear).
I agree. I've been saying for a long time that raid bosses should not drop loot, people should earn their loot.
DeleteSay MV for instance, it has 6 bosses, each boss should drop 1 token for MV loot. When you have 6 you can buy 1 item from the raids loot table.
So lesser guilds only downing the first boss will get 1 piece every 6 weeks. Average guilds downing half the raid will get one piece every 3 weeks and good groups that can clear it each week would get 1 piece a week.
That is how raid loot should work. No lucking into it. Work. Earning 6 token for clearing it and buying your gear one at a time is working for it. Letting luck take control and winning 4 pieces in one run (like someone did last night in my run) is not work. Sorry.
You jelly of my raid gear? Enjoy your dailies, scrub.
ReplyDeleteHow cute, someone thinks they are special because they get easy loot and are too lazy to earn their gear. Bet your raid gear isn't upgraded either because that would be too hard for you.
DeleteYou jelly because people that aren't lazy like you have upgraded raid gear?
Meet the Welcome to WoW guy. Everything that is wrong with the game.
DeleteHe is just the standard wow player, anyone better than him has no life and anyone worse than him is a scrub.
DeleteBut yes, that type of attitude is a welcome to wow sort of thing but one that has been around a long time.
I agree with Anonymous number one that this is a strawman argument. I haven't heard the "welfare" complaint since Mists: it applied to an earlier time, when you could blitz through some dungeons and be ready to raid in no time. You can't really hold it against the current hard-slog daily model, as that model wasn't about at the time.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that the hard-slog daily model is effectively being portrayed here as the redemption of valor gear. What you've said suggests that a gear-gain system is only valid when it's difficult. In turning the tables like this, the mentality of the "omg welfare!" crowd is coming out on top, in a way, because their belief that gear should be a grind is forming the core of the argument.
Personally, I've always felt that "welfare" isn't an effective insult. Welfare means you get the basic stuff you need. In the WoW sense, that's the kit to explore more content. There's nothing wrong with that.
And I would say that raiding is the more enjoyable method of gaining upgrades, rather than less difficult.
Raiding much more enjoyable in my opinion. I would rather do that every day than run dungeons or do dailies after I already hit exalted.
DeleteI'll be the first to admit I would rather take the easy route. If I could raid on all my characters and get them geared in raid gear I would but that is not possible. My alts still need to work for their gear as I am not currently using them and I am not afraid of some work.
Perhaps that is why I understand that valor gear is work and some don't. If they have one character they would not need it. My healer doesn't need valor gear, my tank doesn't need valor gear, but my DPS that is sitting on the bench at the moment needs it if they want to keep up.
The term is still used as reading the forums and seeing people use the term over and over in a few posts just this week is what gave me the idea for this post.
Perhaps it is not used as much as people are starting to realize that valor gear is earned gear but not all of them, see anon # 2 that thinks he is special because he doesn't work for his gear.
There will always be lazy people like him that think they are cool because they are lazy and then get angry and defensive against people that work their ass off to get stuff that isn't even as good as what someone else got the easy way.
And people like him still call valor gear "scrub" gear because they are uneducated and/or lucky. They will never grasp the concept of what valor gear is there for, to help gear people up and to fill slots you have had bad luck with drops on.
I will bet you anyone that ever called valor gear welfare gear has never beat the same boss 30 times praying that what they needed would drop and wishing there were a valor substitute because they have bad luck with drops.
I will still never think of raiding gear as working for it. Lucking into it, yes. Not work. Doing something you enjoy doing it not work, never has been and never will be.
If you are just raiding for gear and no other reason, then it is work, but it wouldn't be rewarding work; it'd be frustrating work, like digging ditches for a lottery ticket...
DeleteIf you are raiding to enjoy raiding, it's not work at all; it's like going to a party with friends and sometimes winning the door prize.
For most people, I'd assume it's somewhere in between.
Like Grumpy, I don't like RNG. There have been a lot of times where team members hadn't gotten any raid upgrades for many weeks due to RNG. We've DE'd and vendored so many heroic raid items because they couldn't be used by our team due to RNG. Sometimes people would get an upgrade. Sometimes someone would get 3 or 4 upgrades and give 1 or 2 to other team members who could also use them. But boss drops were never a reliable reward for raiding. The epic gems were a reward. The 100 VP per kill was a reward. Playing with your friends was a reward. Beating the content was a reward. Performing better than you did last week was a reward. Gear and Mount drops were rare (or very rare) surprises.
I hate RNG because RNG hate me. I have seen the same happen. Like holy paladin gear drops every single time we do not have a holy paladin in the group. Not one, not two, but off every boss.
DeleteRaid gear is a bonus, it is not something to be counted on and I agree. If you raid for gear you are going to be let down and get frustrated unless you are lucky and if you are lucky and only raid for gear you will get bored quickly once you do not need any gear any longer.
Raiding for gear might be why some people do it and for them it is work but it is all about perspective. I do not raid for gear so any gear that drops is a woohoo free loots moment for me.
Lazy players count on raid drops only, dedicated players use everything they can to get gear, raid, valor, BoE, you name it, and casual players that do not have time to raid get valor gear only.
Perhaps there is a nice balance there. Something for everyone.
I have to say that as a raider although I do love to raid and have fun with it, I put a lot of work too. And I think that diminishing my work like that is wrong. I would also argue that there are people loving the dailies so this is the easy route for them. As it stands I can't say either is easy. And I should know, I ve done them both FOR my raid. Because to go into the raid I need to best gear I can get in every means possible. And the loot that drops from a boss I wiped and wiped? Believe me, it was definitely not an easy win.I am not devaluing players that spends hundredths of hours grinding that valor because I do it also if nothing else. But you shouldn't be so easy to devalue so much raid drops either. My raid is definitely not easy.Its fun, but it's not easy. It's hard work that I enjoy doing and the loot that I get? Hard work paying off my friend.
ReplyDeleteI'd have to agree that raiding is work in a sense, so the gear is well and justly earned. So is running a lot of dungeons or doing hundreds of dailies.
ReplyDeleteA difficult heroic boss for example may take several hundred wipes to get a first kill down, especially when undergeared and unnerfed. I fail to see how that should not be rewarded and why anybody would ever consider it welfare gear.
On that note, I feel that neither should be regarded as welfare gear, both take quite a bit of effort to get.
Finally, if you really feel that dungeons are "work", you should probably be doing as few of them as possible (and avoiding LFD altogether) while raiding as much as possible. I personally find dungeons quite enjoyable (at least with a good LFD pug), but judging by what you are saying, the things you have to do to earn VP are not in your mind "fun". At the end of the day, it's a game, do what you find fun. For you, that appears to be more raiding and less LFD.