I thought I would put in my two cents to answer a question no one asked me. The whole argument of looking for raid being required content or not.
I will give you the perspective of a casual raid leader. One that has never been in a world first guild or even a server first guild. Server 8th is the highest we ever got and that is only because it is a smaller server. So we are not a great guild but I believe we are a fair representative of what it means to be a casual raiding guild.
Now, with the back story it is time to give my opinion.
Looking for raid is required content. Anyone that says anything else fits into one of three categories.
1) An exceptional player, the type that finished MV week one while only in heroic gear and some crafted gear.
2) Someone that likes to think they are an exceptional player but rationalizes the fact they still have not downed any bosses in MV as their guilds fault, their lucks fault or anyone elses fault but their own.
3) Someone who doesn't want to raid or would rather wait to be carried.
Now, why do I believe looking for raid is required content?
If I am assembling a guild run I will ask people if they have done the LFR. The reason for this is that it makes it easier to explain. People might have done it 100% wrong in LFR but at least when I explain things they will know the room layout. Another reason is that if people are not willing to gear themselves up do not expect me to carry your ass. Raiding is a team event, one that everyone should contribute to. Doing the LFR is you learning the plays from the playbook. Any decent team player at least checks the plays out before showing up for the game. If you can not be bothered to run LFR to try and get the 476 chest I can not be bothered to drag you along and let you roll on a 489 chest that someone else actually worked for.
For ANY guild that did not clear MV before LFR came out the LFR is required. If it were not required for you and your guild you would have cleared MV already. Simple as that.
Now, look at the math, the number of guilds that completed MV before the LFR came out and the number that didn't. The number of guilds, less that 1% I am sure, that cleared it before the LFR came out did not need it so it is not required for them. For everyone else, the 99% of the player base, LFR is required content.
One note I would like to make about this however. It is only required now, at the start of the expansion. Later on, we will move into the next tier with full gear from the tier before, so LFR becomes optional, it is not needed. You can run it to get some pieces you never got from the previous tier but the previous tiers gear will easily be enough to move into the next tier with. Being this is the beginning of the expansion is why it is required. When people are starting the gearing up process.
Later on, LFR will be for quicker valor capping, alts, and trying to get pieces of a lesser quality that you have had no luck with in the real raid. It might feel required, but it is not. Now, it is required. Later, it won't be. But I will still ask people if they have done it and with two equally geared and equally skilled players I will always choose the person that did the LFR over the one that didn't. So perhaps, even later, it will still be required, by the 99% that is.
Yeap, LFR is required content for any player / guild that can not clear the content easy without it. Basically that means 99% of the raiders out there.
For my raiders, LFR is required. That is just how it is, it makes it easier for everyone.
Added Note:
Just because you can do a raid without 476 gear does not change the fact that 476 gear will make it easier. You can do a raid without gems, you can do a raid without enchants, you can do a raid without reforging, you can do a raid without flasks, you can do a raid without potions, you can do a raid without food, but do you? Nope. Because having those things makes you better, makes the raid easier. If there is something to be gained in the LFR gear wise, it is required to try and get it, just the same as all raiders should be required to gem and enchant.
It might not seem standard now, but once upon a time gems, chants, food, flasks, etc where also considered extras only the hard core players worried about and now they are the standard, they are required. Just like LFR is, or soon will be.
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What absolute tosh
ReplyDeleteThere are no real hard dps checks in MV, the enrages are all relatively easy to hit providing you don't fuck it up
Meaning execution is the major factor, gear is not the problem for any guild that has fitted themselves out in hc gear
It's the same bullcrap that people were spouting when then DS debuffs were added, "if you havn't killed DW by now you need the debuff" even if they were slowly making progress through the zone the normal way
If you can not down it with 463 gear, you need 476 gear. Simple. It is not crap.
DeleteIt has absolutely nothing to do with execution. It has to do with gear. Gear makes up for people that suck at execution. Healers can heal more, tanks can take more hits, DPS put out more numbers to make the fight shorter making it easier on everyone.
Any fight is easy when people do the dance correctly. Every fight is even easier when people have better gear to make the dance as short as possible so people do not mess up.
Gear makes things easier.
LFR is required.
Just because you can’t down it in 463, DOES NOT mean you need 476. Yes it will make things easier, but you do not need the gear to clear the raid.
DeleteExecution is everything, gear is simply a cushion. Multiple guilds have cleared MV in (As you said) Heroic and a few crafted pieces. If gear was the almighty, you would see these guilds farming all epic/476 pieces to get there first clears of MV.
Your first sentence in this reply is indicating you must have better gear to progress if you can’t clear it, then at the bottom you implying it just makes things easier. So which is it, is gear a necessity, or does it just make things easier?
Lets see. 50 attempts with 463 gear to down something, or 20 attempts with 476 gear to down something.
DeleteI'll take 20 attempts thank you.
Yes, you could do it in 463 gear but if the 476 gear is there and you do not take it you are gimping yourself.
Yes, the 476 gear is needed.
Can it be done with less? Yes.
Why do it with less when you don't have to unless you want to make it artificially harder? Not sure, perhaps you can answer that one. You are the one that doesn't want better gear.
Gear makes it easier. Easier is what everyone wants.
Yes, some will not be able to do it at all and will need that cushion. For those that need that cushion, they need the gear.
So both things I said are 100% accurate. Some will need it, some won't. Both will take it when it is offered however, need it or not. Simple as that.
Anyone that can get an upgrade from the LFR that refuses to do the LFR because "it is not needed" is not a good player in my opinion. A good player gears themselves the best they can. If something is offered in the LFR that is better than something you are currently wearing, a good player will do it, a good player has to do it, that is what makes them a good player, because they try to be the best they can be and gear helps them be better. Even if it is only for cushion sake.
"It has absolutely nothing to do with execution" this is just down and out wrong. Gear will not let you survive a double explosion on the stone guards, or someone exploding on your raid in phase 3 feng.
DeleteIf you are wiping 50 times on any boss and not reaching an enrage timer it is absolutely 100% down to execution. Even if that simply means your damage dealers need to get better.
You act as if your raiders are performing 100% and don't actually have anything to learn from each encounter.
True, gear can not heal you through that, it will not let you survive it either. But what I said is still true.
DeleteIt has absolutely nothing to do with execution. Execution is a learned thing. You learn it as you go. Gear makes no difference in execution. Unless you are talking a run speed enchant, then maybe it might help.
Now, knowing that execution is a learned thing, it comes down to gear. The more gear you have the faster the fight is and the less chance people have to make a mistake with the dance.
You can go in there naked and execute perfectly. Without gear it means nothing. You will not down bosses without appropriate gear and the better the gear the easier it gets. As I said, it has absolutely nothing to do with execution. If you do not have the gear to do the boss, knowing how to execute means nothing.
I didn't say it was about my raiders, I said a blanket statement, that gear matters. The more you have the easier the fight gets because the fight gets shorter and some mistakes can be made up for.
So, once again, with that said, as long as there is any upgrade you can get from the LFR, it is required.
I do not give a crap if you can down MV in 440 item level gear. Doing it in 476 is still better. So it is still required.
And upgrade is an upgrade, need it or not.
Of course you won't don't the boss without meeting the mathmatical requirements (seriously is this the level of your arguament? it should be completely obvious and not worth mentioning), but to hit them (and also be well within them) you only need the heroic level stuff.
DeleteYou didn't say gear matters, you are saying gear is all that matters, which is completely false.
But hey, the nerfs will be in within a couple of months no doubt and you will probably be done with "gearing up in LFR" by then.
I dare you to post "execution doesn't matter in raiding" in any warcraft forum though
You keep missing the entire concept of what I am saying. Execution doesn't matter at all if you can not do the fight.
DeleteWhen I first went in there, and as you might know from reading my guild is casual so we are not going to down things ASAP, we learned the mechanics.
We got the the point were we were hitting the engage timer because we needed more gear. Admittedly only 2 people were even above 460 when we did it, but execution means nothing, you do not need gear to learn execution, we learned it without gear. You need gear to beat bosses.
Execution and gear are two completely different things. When taking about gear, execution means absolutely nothing.
Gear will not make you execute better but it will make you do the job better. Stop trying to throw the two things into the same argument. Execution means nothing. We learned the dance before we had the gear, you do not need gear to learn execution. You need gear to down bosses.
Running it every week; no point after you have normal gear.
ReplyDeleteRunning it at least once before doing normal mode; part of the preparation like watching videos and reading strategies.
Personally, I've done it once with 10+ guildies on the night the 2nd half opened up but I haven't had time to play much, so I'm not raiding anyway (much to the disappointment of my guild leaders...)
I'll do it as long as I need gear from it. I'll do it because it will be the best option to valor cap. I'll do with so guild mates that are just gearing up do not have to go in there alone.
DeleteI do not like it, I said it back with DS and I will say it now, it is still way to hard for the average wow player. Sorry, as watered down as it is, the average player is not capable of doing it.
Once the better players all stop doing the LFR it will be a nightmare. It is too hard for the people it is meant for.
I would like to see the statistics of people that have cleared LFR, cause im pretty sure for it being as tough you are saying it is for the average player, that with DS LFR and MV LFR gets cleared alot by these average players for it being too tough for them.
DeleteEver think that by the time the better players stop going in that the average players will all have better gear to push through it also?
There will always be some better players, on alts even, that help the group through the LFR.
DeleteIf you took the, lets say #10 DPS, and filled the ground with just that person, you would never finish a LFR, ever. Simple as that.
The healers would run out of mana, no matter how good they are. The tanks would run out of cooldowns, no matter how good they are. The mobs would live to long and it would end up being a wipe.
The LFR is too hard for the average player. When in most groups the #6 DPS is less than 25K you have to think that if everyone was doing that all fights would become statistically impossible.
"Later on, we will move into the next tier with full gear from the tier before, so LFR becomes optional, it is not needed."
ReplyDeleteSo, all the paragraphs about how it's better to 'learn the fights' in LFR go out the window once you're geared up?
Might as well have stated "LFR is mandatory because we don't think heroic dungeon gear is enough to clear the first raid tier of this expansion" and be done with it.
For the majority of players dungeon gear was not enough to clear the first tier of raiding. It was designed for people to need LFR gear unless they were on the cutting edge.
DeleteI also did note at the end that I would still want people to do the LFR even if they were fully geared. Seemed like you stopped reading after the line you quoted, here is the part you missed.
"But I will still ask people if they have done it and with two equally geared and equally skilled players I will always choose the person that did the LFR over the one that didn't."
So there was more to it than just the first tier needing the LFR gear for most players.
Perhaps I remember incorrectly, but didn't' according to MMOchampion about 1% of the subscriber base down MV before LFR, which would be about half the Raider population if we go with Zarhym's number and your own from 'Is Raid content compelling content?' (ie abt 2% regularly Raids Normal+) ?
ReplyDeleteNot really trying to argue here (I do agree with the 'practice run' philosophy for example) but the 'required for 99% of the player base' is pushing it a bit, considering the actual interest in Raiding.
I said 1% of the raider base, not 1% of the player base. Only 7% of the player base even raids.
DeleteWhen I mentioned player bases here I meant the raiding player base, not the entire player base. I should have been more descriptive, my fault, sorry.
That's rather harsh ... so you actually enforce people doing LFR if they want to be on your raid roster?
ReplyDeleteI get the 'do it once to check out the fight so it's easier to explain and you've seen the boss and what he does and and etc'.
But making people have LFR items because they are otherwise 'holding back' your progress ... i dunno
"" Yeap, LFR is required content for any player / guild that can not clear the content easy without it. Basically that means 99% of the raiders out there.
For my raiders, LFR is required.""
So you're saying you can't clear the content without it?
I agree old Blizzard should just make them all (lfr/normal/heroic) share the same lockout. No more of this nonsense about having to do something you don't want to.
On the other hand, I am not that found of dailies, so guess what, I only do them when I feel like it (10% of the time) or when I'm with a friend DPS who tags just about the entire zone while I heal him.
Saying I have to do this but I don't want to and it's Blizzards fault makes me feel 'meeeehh' inside. If you don't feel like doing something, they just don't.
LFR is not mandatory to clear normal content. Sure it might give you a 0.1% edge statwise, and a 50% edge mentally (because I'm wearing purples dude!), but honestly, no it's not mandatory.
But I get your point of view as well, as a raid leader pushing your guild to progress, you want your team members to be as optimal as possible. And when people talk the 'I don't want to, I shouldn't have to blabla' ... yeah that must be annoying.
How is it harsh?
DeleteIs it any different than telling people to go on tank spot and watch the videos? Is it any different than sending them to some site to read a description of a fight?
I can not see people watched a video or read a strategy but I can tell if they were in the LFR.
It is not harsh in m yopinion, it is what every raid leader has been doing since you were able to find raid guides online, he tells the raiders to read the guide. I tell them to experience the watered down version. No difference. I do not think it harsh at all.
As for if we can't without it, don't know, have not tried without it. But being I had to tank at the last moment I did it with my bear that just hit 90 and had a 450 item level, so I know it can be done but why would anyone want to do it with a full group in 450 gear? I am sure with enough effort we could do a few bosses. We are not world beaters or even close, so gear helps make things easier. Could we do it? Maybe. Would we do it? Anyone that would do something in 463 gear when there is 476 gear readily available is hurting themselves for no good reason at all.
Not sure where you come with LFR gear being 0.1% better. It is leaps and bound better than 463 gear. Just one, of many examples, is someone in my guild. Was doing between 40-50K DPS in heroic gear. Picked up 4 LFR pieces, 1 valor piece and the darkmoon trinket and he is now doing 70K-80K. So unless you are saying that the darkmoon trinket and one valor piece gave him nearly a double boost to ability the LFR loot played a HUGE part. It is much better than heroic gear. It is not some 0.1% increase. Not even close.
In the end I look at it like this, anyone that is content to go into a raid with 463 gear when there is 476 gear out there that is easy to get is not even trying. Not saying they need it, but if it is there, you should get it.
Same with the buffs. We didn't need the buff in DS, but did we turn it off? No. Why would you turn off the buff. Same as why would you raid in 463 gear when you can raid in 476 gear.
Anyone that does not have the best out there is not trying. Thus, LFR is required if you actually care about how well you do.
I enjoyed reading this post, as I do most of your posts. Our guilds seem very similar, although I think mine raids less often and therefore with slower progress. Our raiders are fine with it, though. We are casual raiders, so our expectations try to be realistic.
ReplyDeleteWith that said, I am not sure I agree with you 100%. In particular, I think the title and opening premise are in conflict with this statement from the end: "For my raiders, LFR is required. That is just how it is, it makes it easier for everyone."
I actually AGREE with that sentiment. My raiders all run LFR on a weekly basis; however, I would not say any of us actually see it as required. We do it voluntarily, to give each one of us slightly more wiggle room as we try new bosses. We do it, as you noted, to practice the bosses in "easy mode" so that it feels more natural.
That's not "required," though. Requirements are things like needing a certain item level to even enter a raid, or needing a completed attunement quest. This is a player-driven system.
And just like other player-driven systems, such as asking every raider to watch a strategy video for a new boss, it's something that is completely subjective. Some raiders, and some raid teams, will feel more compelled than others to participate in that activity. Part of finding the right "fit" as a raider is finding people who share the same expectations for these compulsions.
Because of that, despite the fact that I DO agree with your stance as far as leading your raid, I can't agree that LFR is actually required. YOU require LFR to be on your team. It isn't objectively required. It's a small, semantic thing, but I also think it makes all the difference in the world.
Glad you like them and I see where you both agree and disagree.
DeleteWhile it is true I have never kicked anyone from a raid because they said they had not done it in the LFR I do urge them to do it and bring them on the guild run for it. It just makes life easier for all over it. Even more so when a raid has been out for a while and most of the time we just pull and never explain because everyone knows their job. Having had someone run in the LFR makes it so much easier to explain.
So some guilds ask people to watch videos, some ask them to read strats, I tell them to run the LFR.
For gear, for experience, for the feeling, for the real raid because all of those things will make the real raid easier.
While you might not require it, so to speak, try doing a raid with a casual guild where no one knows anything going into it.
You could get to 100 wipes before downing it. If they at least experienced it in LFR it might bring that down to 50 wipes. If they all got some gear from it, it could bring that down to 20 wipes.
It might not be required, by you or many, but when you look at the difference between a 100 pull boss or a 20 pull boss, I will require it.
Why should I have to wipe an additional 80 times because the people in my group refuse to do the LFR? I shouldn't. So they do it.
"1) An exceptional player, the type that finished MV week one while only in heroic gear and some crafted gear."
ReplyDeleteActually, it was required for us too, since we needed the gear for heroic modes.
Okay, so I guess even the exceptional players needed it. Thanks for speaking up on the matter. Goes to show it is not just us "casual" players that need the boost that LFR gear can offer.
DeleteThe difference is we need it to finish normal and you need it to finish heroic. ;)