tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post684934950678277530..comments2024-03-27T07:57:48.010-04:00Comments on The Grumpy Elf: What If: The Faction Divide Without OrcsTheGrumpyElfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-86651499951544952082014-08-04T08:26:33.157-04:002014-08-04T08:26:33.157-04:00Much better designed, and still would have arthas ...Much better designed, and still would have arthas (possible) for a future date which to this day proves to be the highlight of the MMORPG days.<br /><br />Blizzard should have done it your way.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-3550061003603179572014-08-04T08:25:04.025-04:002014-08-04T08:25:04.025-04:00That is very good, liked the old god influence and...That is very good, liked the old god influence and the change of the factions (which is what I was aiming at). I more so liked how the development went along moving a lot slower in the story telling mode and it ends before even the BC expansion as we know it.<br /><br />You know how to make a story last. Too bad blizzard rushed like a mad dog through everything they had an ran out of ideas so soon because they have no one else capable of creating something new.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-30864333825148871192014-08-04T08:20:04.197-04:002014-08-04T08:20:04.197-04:00I like your story thus far and find it interesting...I like your story thus far and find it interesting how each race is its own faction. Would suck for PvP design but would be interesting from a play point.<br /><br />I would try to be friendly with all of course.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-49949521307755425542014-08-04T08:15:44.781-04:002014-08-04T08:15:44.781-04:00I disagreed with the way that was handled complete...I disagreed with the way that was handled completely. Alliance should have laid a heavy hand on the horde even with new leadership. Even with the past history of working with Vol'jin. Alliance has lost so much since garrosh took control not even counting the big bomb of theramore.<br /><br />It is bad writing, bad story telling, and bad form for blizzard to have handled it so poorly. There should have been a serious win for alliance here and should have even been more if they were to let the horde continue to exist.<br /><br />It goes to show you the lack of skill the writers of the game have. I understand what you say about things needing to be done from a game play point of view but a much more satisfying ending could have been written by a third grader for a creative writing project than the "well okay, you might have killed towns and slaughtered women and children for no reason but its all okay now because you said you will not do it again" horrible writing example we were given.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-49361548252389817832014-08-02T14:47:17.193-04:002014-08-02T14:47:17.193-04:00Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:
This is t...Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:<br /><br />This is the timeline for the above counter-factual.<br /><br />Warcraft of the Fantasy Realm November 1994<br /> Humans, Elfs, Dwarfs, Trolls<br /> Blizzards first Real Time Strategy wargame<br /><br />Warcraft of the Fantasy Realm II December 1995<br /> plus Gnomes, Goblins, Hobgoblins<br /> first expansion for RTS game<br /><br />Warcraft of the Fantasy Realm II: On to Northrend April, 1996<br /> Silithids overthrown<br /> second expansion for RTS game<br /><br />NOTE: there is no equivalent to Warcraft III or it's expansion and instead, Blizzard goes straight on to producing WoW, ending up with a much more polished version for release in 2004.<br /><br />World of Warcraft November 2004<br /> Humans, Elfs, Dwarfs, Trolls, Gnomes, Goblins, Hobgoblins<br /> MMORPG, Onyxia/Nefarian plotline<br /><br />World of Warcraft: The New World January, 2007<br /> plus Night Elfs, Tauren, Kalimdor included<br /> MMORPG; Silithid plotline begins<br /><br />World of Warcraft: War in the North November, 2008<br /> Death Knight added, Northrend included<br /> MMORPG; Silithid plotline ends<br /><br />World of Warcraft: The Dragon War December 2010<br /> Flight added<br /> MMORPG; Deathwing/Old Gods plotline begins<br /><br />World of Warcraft: The Mists of Pandaria September, 2012<br /> Monk added, Pandaria included<br /> MMORPG; Old God plotline ends<br /><br />World of Warcraft: Warlords of Draenor December 2014<br /> Orcs introduced, Burning Legion at the back of it all<br /> MMORPG; Orc/Burning Legion plotline begins<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-51913162515793668272014-08-01T15:59:47.473-04:002014-08-01T15:59:47.473-04:00Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader: (continue...Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader: (continued)<br /><br />The next WoW expansion, "War in the North" returns the story to Northrend, the continent of which is added into the playable world. The Grand Alliance of all the playable races works to defeat the menace of the Silithids in Northrend and their undead armies. Players get the Death Knight class as a playable Hero class as the first new class added to the game. The expansion ends with the death of the Silithid Necromancer King, the shattering of his undead armies and the seeming victory of the Grand Alliance. Again the Old Gods are prevented from re-establishing control of Azeroth. <br /><br />"The Dragon War" is the next expansion and stars Deathwing as its' central villain. Flight is added to the game for players and the whole game world is redesigned to handle that capability. Deathwing's defeat ends the expansion. Other than flight being added, the expansion is generally rated a failed experiment as only five levels were provided and no new territory was gained. Instead some portions of the existing map were redrawn to account for flight and the effort that took caused all other efforts to be more limited. <br /><br />It did bring us to the next expansion, the Mists of Pandaria, in which the mysterious continent of Pandaria was revealed for the first time and thereby completing the reveal of the North/South and East/West geography of Azeroth. Again only five levels were included and again, ultimately, the Old Gods were behind the conflict as the reason for it occurring. Flight was included from the beginning of the expansion for anyone with the skill learned. Pandarians become the newest race, and Monks are added as a class. The Pandas are laughed at and generally scorned by all the "cool kids" but prove to be popular as a playable race. <br /><br />And that brings us to now...to World of Warcraft: Warlords of Draenor, the newest expansion in which some mysterious force from beyond has opened a portal in the Swamp of Sorrows. Fear of a lawsuit over the use of Orcs having diminished over time, Blizzard decides Orcs will be the featured story. Dominated by the evil nihilistic Burning Legion the Orcs of Draenor make their first appearance in game, pouring through the Dark Portal and opening a whole new chapter in the history of Azeroth and the Grand Alliance. Controversy sweeps the fan base as it is announced that flight will not be available at the beginning of the expansion and may well be disallowed in the world beyond the Dark Portal all together. <br /><br />No one yet realizes that the Burning Legion even exists as the expansion opens, but it does and it is coming to Azeroth. <br /><br />There, does that adequately provide a literary exercise in what if?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-4167217476544442662014-08-01T15:58:53.319-04:002014-08-01T15:58:53.319-04:00Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader: (continue...Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader: (continued)<br /><br />Warcraft of the Fantasy Realm II comes along with the Silithid non-player race (very similar to the Zerg--which is understandable) as the central villainous race. As part of the overall story, the various humanoid races of Azeroth expanded to include Gnomes and Goblins as well as Hobgoblins (in place of Orcs, which Blizzard fears to use for threat of a lawsuit from the Tolkien family). <br /><br />Warcraft of the Fantasy Realm II: On to Northrend shows the end of the threat of the Silithids as the war shifts from the realms established by the various races to the frozen northern lair of the Silithids. The Silithids Necromancers in particular are of great concern for the seemingly endless armies of undead they can raise. This results in a final grand battle that ends in a mana explosion that ends the threat forever...or until Blizzard realizes that a MMORPG is the next step for them to take.<br /><br />World of Warcraft is released with Humans, Elfs, Dwarfs, Gnomes, Trolls, Goblins and Hobgoblins as playable races, each of the six as their own independent faction and reputation. In an innovative decision, Blizzard gives each player a chance to determine his or her relations with other race factions on an individual basis, determined by the quests that are chosen by the individual player. The game world consists of the lands of the Eastern Kingdoms only, there is no hint of Kalimdor anywhere to be found yet, much less Northrend or Pandaria. Each part of the Eastern Kingdoms map is about twice the size of its' current configuration, with the transition point being the bridge at the mid-point of the two halves of the Eastern Kingdoms. All of the nations, tribes and clans of playable races are loosely associated in a Grand Alliance (think League of Nations or United Nations or even a very weakly organized NATO).<br /><br />Onyxia and Nefarion provide the villainous backdrop for this version of WoW much like in the original vanilla WoW. At the end of the cycle, in preparation for the first expansion, a mysterious ship arrives at Menethil Harbor with two new races asking for help. In the first WoW expansion, "The New World", Kalimdor is added to the game with Night Elfs and Tauren becoming the two new races. <br /><br />The Silithid menace again rears its' head and the whole expansion is a desperate war pushing back towards Silithus and the final confrontation. The control of undead by the Silithids leads in turn to the creation of the first Death Knights, a fearsome NPC whose presence on a battlefield is a cause for great concern. But even with these terrible troops added to the mix, the Grand Alliance finally manages to eke out a win, preventing the Old Gods from escaping back into Azeroth. <br /><br />to be continuedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-77617477382618964422014-08-01T15:57:24.545-04:002014-08-01T15:57:24.545-04:00Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:
Well I am...Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:<br /><br />Well I am pretty sure I know what a "what if" or counter-factual story is. The idea is that one thing is changed and then all subsequent events that flow from that one event are affected to varying degrees. The fun lies in the changes that flow from that one particular moment being altered. Of course, the events are fictional in the case of Warcraft, but that has only a minimal amount of influence on how a counter-factual works. The fact that this is a game history, setting up a game to be played by real (or mostly so, I have my doubts about some players) people also has a lot of influence on how the history goes. <br /><br />A case in point is how gently the Alliance treated the Horde despite having a chance to utterly crush them during the Siege of Oggrimar. That was a game decision, one not based on any degree of realism of the actions available nor on any real history available to the characters involved. For what reason, other than it is a game that is not ending, would the Alliance finally have given up the chance to utterly demolish the Horde when the chance came? <br /><br />Now in my case, my chosen point of the what if would be through the character of Medivh. He, while under the heavy influence of the Burning Legion's Sargeras, opened the portal on the Azeroth side. I would start it at what if Sargeras never thought to turn his attention to Azeroth at that moment while he was still working on conquering Draenor. So what if Sargeras ignored Azeroth and Medivh, then what would the history of Azeroth be like, allowing that Blizzard published Warcraft of the Fantasy Realm instead of Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans? <br /><br />In that game, each of several fantasy races are presented with their own story of life in a fantasy realm and the conflicts with other races. Instead of a mere two races, such as Orcs and Humans, the game originally includes Humans, Elfs, Dwarfs, and Trolls, each with several subsets of independent city-states or clans or tribes. Each race has its' own storyline of several scenarios length and ultimately each race faces each of the other three at one point or another in open conflict.<br /><br />to be continuedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-11568059523770828042014-07-31T19:01:31.709-04:002014-07-31T19:01:31.709-04:00I didn't say remove the orcs (go back and read...I didn't say remove the orcs (go back and read - you will not find any reference to orc removal), so there :Þ <br /><br /><i>"Fiery the angels rose, and as they rose deep thunder roll'd. Around their shores: indignant burning with the fires of Orc."</i><br />William Blake's "America: A Prophecy"<br /><br />-roo (no kidding here!)-abhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14899567485973250660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-56544638049110570492014-07-31T07:30:49.850-04:002014-07-31T07:30:49.850-04:00You, like everyone else it seems, missed the entir...You, like everyone else it seems, missed the entire concept of the post.<br /><br />Every seems to think "remove orcs" and what would happen and then reflect on how the world we have now would be different without them.<br /><br />Sorry, that does not work, not in fantasy, not for a what if.<br /><br />If there were no orcs things would be different but not necessarily different in the way you and others describe.<br /><br />For example people say without orcs there would be no faction divide at all because there would have been no reason to create factions.<br /><br />Yes, in the history as we know it. But if there were no orcs that history means nothing because it never happened. A different history would happen, and that is called fantasy, a what if scenario.<br /><br />Factions could still be made. The undead could still become. Lich king could still exist. The burning legion could still attack. Azeroth could be stronger, could be weaker, could be wiped off the map of the universe.<br /><br />Can't just say that without orcs none of this would happen because without orcs the history you know does not happen. So have fun with it, enjoy the fantasy of it, make up a story, and make a decision on what might happen in a world without orcs.<br /><br />I don't think anyone understood what I was going for here. More creative writing than anything else.<br /><br />An old god coming from the ground could very well mobilize people. A fight for resources to defend their land could create conflict between sides. Anything can happen. Things would just develop differently without orcs.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-57315616225671592672014-07-30T19:39:21.914-04:002014-07-30T19:39:21.914-04:00Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:
Hmm, no O...Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:<br /><br />Hmm, no Orcs...<br /><br />That means the Burning Legion never made a second attempt on Azeroth. Which in turn leads to Medivh never having been corrupted, and from there the history of Azeroth is so wildly different that speculation is almost worthless. Of course, that fact won't stop me speculating.<br /><br />The human kingdoms and the High Elves alliance originated if my memory serves, as a result of the troll wars in ages past. Without the undead scourge ever having a Lich King, which without the orcs, they would not, there would be no Blood Elves. The Human/High Elf alliance would never have become as strong as it did but on the other hand, war between the two races would have been unlikely with an always existing Troll menace. <br /><br />Without the Orcs, the Tauren would have likely never have founded their kingdom in Mulgore and indeed, the Centaur tribes might well have pushed the Tauren into extinction. The Centaurs were certainly threatening to do that when the Tauren and Orcs first encountered each other. <br /><br />Without the Orcs and the threat of the Burning Legion re-emerging, Night Elfs would have had very little reason to come out of seclusion and ending their policy of isolation. The thing likeliest to bring them forth would be the reopening of the Gates of An'Quraj, one of the few events that the Burning Legion did not have a hand in bringing about (or at least one that I recall). <br /><br />For much the same reasoning, neither Dwarfs nor Gnomes would have reason to become that involved beyond trade and the occasional border war. Certainly much the same reasoning applies to the Goblins. Also the fact is likely that the Draenie would not have crash landed on Azeroth, never having the chance to escape as all the Orcs that originally came to Azeroth would instead be concentrating on destroying them. <br /><br />The Worgen of Gilneas would not have lost their kingdom to the undead of Lorderan as there would not be any such undead kingdom due to the lack of a Lich King and therefore a lack of Sylvanas as their founder. Indeed, by this time, Arthas is likely sitting on the throne of Lorderan, having replaced his aging father due to natural succession and not murder most foul. <br /><br />The Silithid menace would have likely replace the Scourge as the main bad guys of the game in my opinion. Undead would still be around but in much more limited quantities and under much less powerful leadership. Also the very terms Alliance and Horde would not have any meaning in such a world beyond the literal meaning itself and not as a political tool of identification. <br /><br />Yes, the world of Azeroth would still be a violent, bloody World of Warcraft but things would be oh so very different as to the why of it without the Orcs. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-19732041825366490842014-07-30T16:48:28.423-04:002014-07-30T16:48:28.423-04:00I knew you were up to no good, helping the Taurens...I knew you were up to no good, helping the Taurens GE! <br /><br />Now think on this - what if there was no alliance or horde. One would play what ever race, and then deciding - to go horde or alliance, but, be able to switch alliances later or go back to neutral. Now what does this mean - who knows (I don't for my thinking process just left), but think of it....-abhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14899567485973250660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-35861945689354439102014-07-30T16:36:53.948-04:002014-07-30T16:36:53.948-04:00nah, we're not! Some blood elf started that r...nah, we're not! Some blood elf started that rumor.-abhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14899567485973250660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-47220977215603353662014-07-30T15:49:48.250-04:002014-07-30T15:49:48.250-04:00Very true. Did not think about the LK needing the...Very true. Did not think about the LK needing the orcs to even be who he was.<br /><br />I knew about the other things you mentioned that are because of orcs but I am also "imagining" a reason for factions to become factions. Not sure what the problem would be but lets say if there were one, which sides would they belong to. Good point with the blood elves which also would just be high elves.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-90648434035431877702014-07-30T15:16:56.432-04:002014-07-30T15:16:56.432-04:00If we're eliminating all orcs from azeroth (no...If we're eliminating all orcs from azeroth (not just dark portal orcs) then there would be no Lich King, and with that removal, the Forsaken and Death Knights (if not from LK removal, removal of the original orc who created them) would follow.<br /><br />IIRC the breakdown of the High Elf - Human alliance was due to the Scourge attack on Silvermoon -- either not offering reinforcements,not helping to rebuild, or due to Arthas leading the charge -- so those elves would be solidly with the Alliance, as long as it benefits them. They wouldn't call themselves Blood Elves either, that was only after the attack.<br /><br />Thrall united the races of the Horde, without him they would have never come together. The Alliance formed to fight against the orc horde that swept across the Eastern Kingdoms. Humans had no reason to cross the ocean to Kalimdor, so they never would have encountered the night elves. Without the united front of both Alliance and Horde, Archimonde would have destroyed the world tree and ushered the invasion of the Burning Legion.<br /><br />Without orc involvement, WoW would have no reason for faction splits, only racial splits that can be overcome by players. Amani Trolls may hate humans and high elves for their attack on Zul'Aman, but there's no reason a Darkspear troll wouldn't be able to prove himself to either race, or even raid with other mercenaries (players) of those races outside the sight of the racial leaders. The focus would shift from faction activities (Garrosh bombed Theramore!), to player actions (Grumpy helped the Tauren fight off centaurs!), putting the player at the center of the story rather than the player discovering the story. <br /><br />It appears that this is the direction (without the faction removal) that the story will be moving in WoD. You (the player) are the most important person to the draenei or frostwolves as you work your way through their zones helping them. The danger with this is that it shifts the questing portion of the game further toward a single player focus, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing at that stage.Tess Vazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574100605275284316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-85237475037383391492014-07-30T14:00:19.136-04:002014-07-30T14:00:19.136-04:00I don't think blizzard would remove orcs, so n...I don't think blizzard would remove orcs, so no worries about anything like this happening. lol<br /><br />If blood elves are arrogant and pretentious then they would be the perfect match for humans because humans are too. ;)TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-10756248430437639432014-07-30T12:51:37.932-04:002014-07-30T12:51:37.932-04:00interesting. But you don't have to worry about...interesting. But you don't have to worry about this not being "official" lore, as Blizzard has changed the "lore" to suit them thru-out all the expansions anyway. :-)<br /><br />-roo<br /><br />PS - I really don't believe "Blood Elves" would be part of the Alliance due to BE's being arrogant and pretentious. But it is very possible Taurens would be. <br />No one wants goat people... They look evil.-abhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14899567485973250660noreply@blogger.com