Friday, February 6, 2015

Would Scaling Dungeon Gear Rewards Help Them Remain Relevant?

I remember when warlords of draenor was announced and blizzard said they intended to make dungeons remain relevant for a longer time.  I had my doubts.  We all know how it goes when it comes to dungeons, at least when it comes to people that raid.  As soon as you start killing raid bosses dungeons become completely irrelevant.

With the addition of LFR which basically means that anyone can be a "raider", it diminishes the usefulness and life of dungeons even further.  Add that to the fact that they removed valor and justice and the associated things you can buy with them and you have little to no real reason to run dungeons any longer.

It seems blizzard moved in the opposite direction of what they said they had intended to do.  With the exception of having us need to do 5 dungeons, 4 on heroic, as the starting parts of the quest line for this expansions legendary item, the ring, there are no real reasons for anyone that is not seeking achievements to do dungeons at all.  The gear is poor in comparison to what you are able to get as soon as LFR comes out and the rewards otherwise are non existent, even when considering tank or healer baggies and the 50 garrison supplies.

So it got me to thinking about what would make dungeon more relevant for a longer period of time.  They can not just amp up the difficulty of them and have them reward higher level gear because there will always be brand new characters hitting 100 that will want to start the legendary quest line and it would be unfair to have them have to do a dungeon tuned around a 680 item level when they just hit the 615 item level required to enter them.

So what options are there really?  I say let dungeons stay as they are and have been since the beginning of time.  The more gear we get the easier they become to the point of being face roll easy where most raid geared classes could solo them by the end of the expansion, I see nothing wrong with that.  If anything it helps those new 100s get the "old" stuff out of the way faster as they try to play catch up.  Not to mention, it is fun to have some mindless steamrolling fun in a dungeon that you are only doing for the daily reward anyway, at least for me.

Then thinking about it I came to the conclusion that the garrisons held the answer, or at least one possible answer.  Garrison missions to be more precise.  The garrison missions for the raids count the number of raid kills you need to have in a particular difficultly for which reward you will be getting.  So say you have the highmaul raid mission and no raid kills you would get a 655 item from the box and once you kill 15 bosses on normal you would get a 670 from the box and once you kill 15 bosses on heroic you would get a 685 from the box.

So why not tie this idea to dungeons to keep them relevant longer?  Not exactly in the same way, but using the idea that your current progression dictates your dungeon rewards.

My idea would be this.  Dungeon gear that drops will be 630 basic and as you kill raid bosses it can go up.  Not like missions to the "next" level but to that level.  Like lets say you killed 15 highmaul bosses in LFR, when you do dungeons the gear that drops will be 645.  If you kill 15 highmaul bosses on normal it would drop 655, heroic, 670, and so on.

This would work on multiple levels.  One in that is becomes a reasonable replacement for valor gear and what valor gear was originally intended to do, fill in missing spaces.  Now if you are, lets say, regularly killing heroic highmaul and still have not gotten a pair of legs, you can go do some dungeons to try and get a pair of legs equal to the current content you are doing.

The idea is that as you move up in the gear that you are normally attaining anyway from raiding, you can continue to get dungeon gear at the same level you are capable of attaining gear to begin with.  So it is not giving you anything better than you are capable of attaining anyway to begin with.

For non raiders this will mean they can move up their dungeon gear from 630 to LFR level each time a new LFR comes out, for the casual raider they can move their dungeon gear from 630 to normal or heroic, and so on.

This would mean that everyone, from the person happy with just 630 gear that never touches a raid to the mythic raider that can't seem to get those illusive bracers to drop has a reason to run dungeons.  It would keep dungeons relevant not just until you get the one thing you might need, but always, for the entire expansion long.

One big "problem" I could see people saying is it would be face roll easy but as I already explained, that is really not a problem.  They should be face roll easy for people in raid gear.  That is absolutely working as intended. They are only intended to have any difficulty in a random group at the minimum item level, and they are at that point, so no reason for anyone to ever say they are "too easy" because in better gear they are supposed to be "too easy".

The other problem might be that people would, or could, gear up too quickly that way.  Once you down 15 bosses at a specific raid level just spam dungeons until you have all gear of that level.  I can see that point and I believe I have a solution for that as well.  Instead of the gear they "drop" being equal to your current raid level, have a bag at the end of the run for everyone, a bag they can only get once per day and that bag would contain 1 piece of gear, guaranteed, for your current raiding level.  So the dungeon would still drop 630 gear otherwise, but once a day you have a chance to get something that very possibly could be an upgrade.

I know I would still do it that way.  Legs have been an issue for me so far and I would run it every day in hopes of getting a pair of legs.  Heck, even if they were not an issue I would run it every day hoping to get a pair with the best stats for me, or one that is warforged, or one that has a gem slot, or one that has an additional stat or even better one that has it all.  It would most definitely give me a reason to run dungeons every single day and you can be damn skippy I would run my dungeon every single day.

As it stands now, dungeons have already run out their welcome as far as I am concerned.  My alts do the dungeons for the legendary by direct queue and then never touch another dungeon because there is no need to.  Maybe if someone in guild is going I might tag along for fun, but otherwise, dungeons are irrelevant as soon as you finish the required ones for the legendary, even on alts that you rarely or never play, and I believe there is a way to fix that.

So do you think scaling dungeon gear rewards would help dungeons remain relevant like I suggested, or do you have another idea to keep them relevant?

25 comments:

  1. Even a bag once per day would scale you up too fast. Seven pieces of gear a week for 4 weeks and then there would be no point to LFR either.

    I think the answer would a chance at a loot bag at the end of the dungeon. Similar to loot off a raid boss, you get a chance at a piece of gear but show the loot roll, perhaps using imagery similar to a gambling slot machine.

    You don't always get it (usually you don't). This will keep people coming back, but they won't be bathing in gear at the end of a couple of weeks.

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    1. It "could" not would. And for it to do so you would need to have some luck. For instance I would only need 3 things from my current bag level and it is quite conceivable with my luck and the fact there are so few I need I could go a month without seeing an upgrade from it, but it would keep me doing dungeons. So even a 100% loot from bag would not gear you up really fast.

      I would quickly tire of this "maybe" I get something. I would rather get something I don't need than not get anything at all. The game needs more to let people feel like they win once in a while instead of always being on a treadmill that never rewards you.

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  2. Hmm, I see potential for scaling the gear, but agree with Anon, that it *would* be abused. Heck, with my current lfr + crafted 630 gear, most dungeons are cake walk. A decent group can run multiple dungeons an hour.

    How about dungeons dropping fragments for loot rolls? Running dungeons, each drops 1-3 'broken [extra raid roll token]', Use: Combine 10 to make a single ___ token.

    How about making dungeons scale? Use the 'proving grounds' technology of gear scaling, so that you can never out-gear a dungeon. It will always push you down to a max gear score.. I had envisioned Blizzard using this technology on the legacy dungeons. Run Hellfire Ramparts and you'll be running (effectively) with ilevel 85 gear. Of course, my recent cloth farming would have been a lot harder solo, but with it 'scaled', Blizz could also add all these legacy dungeons back to dungeon finder. Imagine that?! Here you are at 100, running a vanilla dungeon with a random leveling group for cloth, while everyone else get's the epic (level appropriate gear).

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    1. "A decent group" makes me giggle a little. Tell that one to a guild mate who tried to random for GR and spent the better part of 7 hours there wednesday and never got the second boss down.

      First you have a 50/50 chance to get even a halfway decent group and then even if you get a decent group you still get no real reward from it.

      So "ease" is not really an issue, reward is. I would rather struggle with a bad group knowing I will get something good than blow through it in just minutes with a super group and get nothing worthwhile. Dungeons need rewards if they want people to do them. That is the bottom line.

      Your idea is not a bad one at all, however it would have to not count toward the 3 per week, so we could get more than 3. Otherwise all it is doing is giving us another way to get our 3 and we already have enough ways. I can buy my 3 with garrison resources, honor or apexis crystals, all which I have lots of and no use for already. So running a dungeon instead of using unless currency is not really a good motivator, at least not for me, unless I get extras that way.

      I do not think scaling the dungeons up will work. What if I go in on a 680 and the rest of the group is some random people 615? Who do they scale it too? I say leave it as is. My reward for me gear is to make them a cake walk, no need to take that away from me, let me have my fun with destroying a dungeon solo basically.

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  3. I would do your current raiding difficulty minus 10 ilvls. then it becomes good catch up gear without making your actual raiding irrelevant. You also wouldnt feel compelled to do the same content at lower difficulty since dungeons would be preferable.

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    1. That would seem very reasonable as well. I could see that working as well, or even better.

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  4. "I know I would still do it that way."

    Yeah, everyone would. In fact, every raider would kill 15 bosses on heroic the first day or two of content and then do a heroic dungeon every day.

    Why do you think forcing Mythic/Heroic raiders to do a heroic dungeon every day is a good thing? They're already likely spending 8+ hours a week working through the raid zone. You think that'll make them happier or be constructive for the game somehow?

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    1. I don't think it matters what they think, it is not for them, it is for the other 99% of the player base. You can't design the game around the few. So do I think mythic raiders would be happy about it? Don't know, don't care.

      They would be no more "forced" to do it as a mythic raider as I am forced to change servers if I want to raid mythic.

      I choose not to, they can choose not to. Choice, it is a wonderful thing. Something blizzard does not have right now. This would offer it.

      Bottom line is blizzard can do something to make dungeons more relevant past the first week of the expansion and this is the only idea I can personally think of that could breathe life into it.

      If you have any other ideas I would love to hear them. But reward needs to matter and once raids come out I can't see any other reward they could offer.

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  5. I do agree with the sentiment here. Whilst the scaling idea might have some niggles you are correct in the fact that we needed something to keep the dungeons relevant.
    At least with the valor/rep system people would continue to want the dungeons for something or other whereas most characters don't really need dungeons without even having done them all even once.
    Seems a waste of someones effort designing them.

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    1. A large waste of designing effort of they are going to make them to be one week content. Once raiding comes out they are almost irrelevant, and that is sad. Would love to see them be able to breath some life into is somehow, but to do that there needs to be reward on par with raiding as that is what dungeons are competing with.

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  6. wow, lots of ideas. anyway, what happen to gear dropping to be relevant to ones class? Why am I finding "treasure" that is for cloth wearers and not for mail BM hunters? I thought Blizzard said they would fix that, but like everything you mentioned GE, it ain't.

    just more food for thought :D

    -roo making a wish sandwich! Taking two pieces of bread and wishing I had some meat.

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    1. The treasures in the world are set items. They are the same for everyone. Bosses in dungeons, raids when set to personal loot, quest rewards, they will all be relevant to your class and spec.

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    2. maybe treasures should be personal loot. oh yeah, sorry, blizzard fact. how silly of me to think any different.

      -roo

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    3. That would be cool if they all were of use to the person that picked them up. But being as most of them are throw away items that we just vendor it would make no sense for them to put in so much effort to make different versions of each.

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    4. well, I don't know GE. I figure simple tables - the game sees a BE hunter, the gear is mail with agi. if it sees a warrior, it is plate and if it is a tank type warrior (sorry, forgot the different types) it puts on more sta. there, personal gearing solved. :)

      Not sure how lvl 655 or higher is junk. I have a couple of 670's, and I still have one 630. Cant find it's replacement. :(

      -roo

      A haiku for you...

      Once was a sad roo
      Just sat there and took a poo
      And made the sound moo

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    5. The stuff you find in the world is always a low level. I think 608 is the highest piece. So that is why they are vendor trash really.

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  7. For some reason, I don't like the dungeons this time around. Maybe I'm getting old or something, but in previous years I was all over dungeons, doing the achievements while still in greens. This time I didn't bother. I find them too long and meh. Which is odd, because they are technically well done. I still have some quests from the inn I haven't done yet (I didn't even bother taking the dailies). In previous years I would do them for fun at random times. Maybe because I felt I was capping valour? Then again, I didn't do scenarios for valour so that's probably not it.
    I think maybe the only thing that would probably make me do them would be giving me the tank bag even if I queue with a friend.
    On the other hand, I completely hate how people didn't do CMs at all last expansion but now that there was gear everyone was jumping on them with the same ridiculous bullshit that pugs in general are. So putting gear in places where people wouldn't step in otherwise doesn't seem the right way to go. I have no other solution, but I'm just getting sick and tired of different services selling you everything that provides gear - daily CM, raid, you name it. It's like nothing matters anymore but the gear. People don't even try to hide anymore they bought a raid kill or a gold CM.

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    1. Maybe we are just getting old and our interests are changing? I am sort of the same. I usually went out of my way for the achievements, now I am in no rush what so ever. No real motivation to do them and like you said, it is not because they are bad or anything, just not interested.

      I get what you mean about CMs, but you are talking about 2 totally different forms of content. CMs are something only a few can actually do, even if many want to. I do not like them putting gear behind them. That is wrong. Dungeons are intended for everyone to do, they are easy, they are accessible, they fits all skill levels and it is really easy to carry people, it could work there I think. That is where gear should be locked behind.

      I am actually considering buying a CM gold run this time. I do not have the desire to repeat last expansion of waiting forever to get groups, learning, then relearning, then doing it once more as we keep replacing people, all to take forever to get gold. I think I would much rather pay to get gold.

      Am I capable? 100% capable of doing CM golds. Do I have the friends that are willing to do it and learn and are capable? No. So buying it is really my only option, or go through hell trying to get it like last time. So if the opportunity comes up and the price is right, I will buy them in a heartbeat, even for real cash if need be.

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    2. Seeing as everybody and their mother is buying them, they no longer have any bragging value. So if you have the money, buy them. I completely understand and support the decision.

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    3. I think of it as saving me the trouble of finding my own group.

      I remember on one of my alts I paid my way into a SoO run after I hit 90, just to get some gear. I was the best person in the group both numbers and mechanics wise. So even if you "pay" it doesn't mean you were carried, so to speak. It was just easier to pay a few gold to be sure to get a full clear than to try to pug and take your chances.

      That is the only problem I have when paying on my main. Would not mind for an alt, but on my main I am sure I am better than 99% of the people selling those runs. Really bothers me that I don't people to run them with myself.

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  8. I'm not sure that gear from dungeons will keep people doing it. If you make it too high then it's too easy for people to gear up that way, but I think there should be some other incentive rather than gear. Maybe award a valuable item as the reward rather than Garrison resources (which a lot of people would be capped on now anyway). Maybe a savage blood?

    The CHANCE of an epic drop at the end of a dungeon could be incentive, rather than a guaranteed drop. Like how Darkmaster Gandling had a small chance of dropping Headmaster's will (or the old Headmaster's charge - oh I loved that buff). I wonder if that would make the dungeon more palatable and relevant?

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    1. For a chance? Nope, it would not get me to do them. I'll raid and get my drops instead. Tell me I "will" get something, even if I do it 100 times in a row and never get anything I need, because I am getting something and that sometimes "might" be helpful, I will do it each and every day.

      I am sick and tired of RNG and the "chance" for things to happen. I am too old for that. Give me a task, reward me for doing it, stop telling me there is a chance I will be rewarded. That sort of game play as worn out its welcome with me.

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  9. http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/361836-whats-the-point-in-dungeons/

    6.1 introduces new daily quests
    ...
    You're provided a random task
    ...
    One of the task types is to complete a specific dungeon, and you'll receive a bag with gear up to (I believe) 655 ilvl
    ...
    --
    Regards,

    regardsanon

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    1. I saw that today, doesn't seem all that exciting really. 655 gear is also rather poor at this point in the mix, should be 665 now, minimum.

      It is a start, but it is not enough to get me to do dungeons, hell no, not even close. Not even on alts that need the gear. I would rather go on an alt run to BRF normal and get 665. Or maybe even squeeze into a heroic for 680. 655 gear is not motivator enough for me. But it is a step in the right direction, too little and too late, as always.

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    2. I think the rewards are perfectly placed at 655.
      That's the equivalent of Highmaul normal and Blackrock lfr, which will be an upgrade for the vast majority of players.
      You are in very much of a minority if 655 gear is not enough reward even for your alts.

      This small change does exactly what you wanted. It extends the life of dungeons, just not for you.

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