tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post8667010942123604820..comments2024-03-27T07:57:48.010-04:00Comments on The Grumpy Elf: Why are the Casual Guilds Hurting?TheGrumpyElfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-11089657697433418152013-06-05T06:24:17.810-04:002013-06-05T06:24:17.810-04:00Would be much better than heading in there with a ...Would be much better than heading in there with a lot of people that need stuff and downing 3 bosses and disenchanting everything that drops. Yes, it has happened.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-37810486179176547712013-06-04T16:28:24.433-04:002013-06-04T16:28:24.433-04:00Sunwell even had a better loot system in that some...Sunwell even had a better loot system in that some bad drops could be exchanged for loot of the same armor class different spec. Not the ideal of smart loot, but still better than nothing but DE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-34135018604968334322013-06-04T14:10:40.307-04:002013-06-04T14:10:40.307-04:00Agreed. I think I touched on that in the post. W...Agreed. I think I touched on that in the post. When you do not even get an achievement for normal but you do for LFR you know there is an issue with normals feeling worth it for many. Not all, but many for sure.<br /><br />I do not consider the LFR runner as dumb or ignorant. I consider them as a product of their environment.<br /><br />Just one example that explains why I have that standpoint. <br /><br />Last week I was on my rogue and doing the turtle in the LFR. Tank grabs adds, brings them to the foot, I go into my AoE rotation mixing in my crimson tempest, not a lot of damage but really all I can effectively add to the mix. Tank goes down, I am top aggro, I go down. They revive the tank and leave me laying there. No issue with that, I would call for the same in the real raid most likely. But it allowed me to just sit and watch on the foot the entire fight.<br /><br />Not once did anyone in melee range on that foot do any DPS on the bats even if the tank dragged them to that foot. Not once did any of the melee stationed there even attempt to move from falling stones. They just stood there and continued on with their rotation as if it were a patchwork fight.<br /><br />Sure, the healers healed them through it and it could be considered a patchwork fight by that theory but it shouldn't be that way. It is just the way the LFR teaches people to be.<br /><br />So I am not calling them dumb and ignorant. I am calling them a product of their environment in the LFR.<br /><br />You might think different and you are entitled to do so, but to me, if you do not step out of the falling rocks on that fight, even in the LFR, you are not a raider and you are not ready to be a raider.<br /><br />With that said. New players come into the real raid thinking that is how things are done and die to the first thing they are supposed to move from and then blame the group they are in for having bad healers when in fact it was them that was the bad one because that is how the LFR trained them to be. <br /><br />Yes, as a player, a raider and a raid leader, I have seen first hand the taint that the LFR has cast on potential raiders.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-73766871391663398192013-06-04T13:57:21.131-04:002013-06-04T13:57:21.131-04:009 have killed horridon, 4 have killed the last bos...9 have killed horridon, 4 have killed the last boss. So nearly 50% that get past horridon killed the last boss. <br /><br />We are the only guild that does not raid 3 nights a week that has killed him. How do you think those other 4 guilds that raid 3 nights a week feel having only downed horridon in the last month?<br /><br />Hopefully we will get to the last boss one day but being we do not run a lot and reset each week I doubt we will ever get there. Unless we extend lock outs. 12 bosses in 2 hours or even 4 over 2 days sometimes it just not something I see happening.<br /><br />My server is tiny. There are a lot of capable people spread over many guilds. All of us have weak links. I hate to say it but my groups weak link is our healers and the lack of a consistent second tank. If we had that I am sure we would be knocking on 12/12 already with only one extension.<br /><br />Our server has tried the super guild idea a few times. Does good for a month or two and then everyone wants to start their own thing and it falls apart again. Not going to happen on our server and many many like it. The content needs to be tailored closer to what most guilds on servers like mine, and most servers are like mine, can handle.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-52487457709616835972013-06-04T12:51:30.835-04:002013-06-04T12:51:30.835-04:00"There are many skilled players, as in skille..."There are many skilled players, as in skilled enough for making normals easy, that have just said it was no longer worth the time, they will just do the LFR."<br /><br />LFR is merely a symptom of what you point out here - the rewards from raiding on normal mode just aren't worth the time and effort you have to put in to have a chance of getting 'em.<br /><br />I agree with many parts of your post, but I do take issue with the notion that LFR is TAINTING the casual raider, causing him or her to NOT KNOW what REAL raiding is like, which in turn means they're in for a rude awakening if they attempt normal.<br /><br />Why do you perceive the LFR runner as dumb and ignorant in this regard?<br /><br />The fact that a vocal part of the community considers LFR to be some sort of idiot mode is obvious to anyone who can read. People who complain about the simplicity of LFR fights are numerous, and it is clear that the very simplicity - and very OPENNESS - of LFR means that it isn't LEGIT raiding.<br /><br />I think most players see it. I also think most players in LFR don't care. NOT because they don't know any better, however.<br /><br />Here's my theory - potential "normal" level raiders are not tainted in any way by LFR. We like improving our gear and shooting for awesome just as much as anyone, and we're aware that there are spheres beyond LFR. <br /><br />But LFR enables us to do EXACTLY what we want WITHOUT the huge time investment, learning curve, repair bills or sheer pain in the assness that is now "normal" raiding.<br /><br />As you've pointed out, normal raiding rewards aren't worth it to the majority of players. Therefore, when presented the choice between LFR and normal raiding - people are DEFINITELY going to go with LFR over normal.<br /><br />The culture of cluenessness in and of itself is a distraction from that basic "is the effort worth it" argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-80008453531064747482013-06-04T10:03:32.008-04:002013-06-04T10:03:32.008-04:00Personally, I think the odd thing with your server...Personally, I think the odd thing with your server is how MANY have killed the first boss... On my server, about 25% who killed Horridon have killed Lei Shen, is that roughly equivalent to your server? If that's the case then you must have a crazy amount of guilds who are just good enough to kill the first boss and not the second. Sounds like some guild (or at least raid) consolidation is in order if you have that many raiding-interested toons on the server...<br /><br />(and no, it would be better if that wasn't necessary, but in the current reality that seems like a logical suggestion)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-26993826798131867292013-06-04T07:20:49.409-04:002013-06-04T07:20:49.409-04:00You nailed it there. My 10 man, while it can not ...You nailed it there. My 10 man, while it can not do 12/12 yet, can down a few bosses a night. We also have enough rotation players that we can field 15 decent players. So we might be able to do 25s if we could get the main in there to help carry the others but without them the 25 sits at 1 boss.<br /><br />The single lock out is what keeps up in 10s, so we can make some progress, even if not world breaking. Only because I would rather get 3-6 bosses down then 1 and a chance at more. If you know what I mean.<br /><br />I am on a low pop. It is part of the reason my progression is so low. Not many to choose from and that makes things a lot harder. My original team sees me as the only one left from it. Most quit in cataclysm and those that did not quit at the start of cataclysm left at the end leaving only me.<br /><br />You speak of raid leaders and I am the reluctant one. But I know what you mean. I have grown into what you have said. Learning how to adapt to the people I have and their skills. Not just looking at a video and saying this is how it is done. 99 out of 100 times I have to make some changes because my make up demands I do so. Those changes are the only reason we actual down anything. I use a strat on horridon I never saw elsewhere. Before I adapted to it we were always dying at the 4th door. I made some minor adjustments and the first time we did it correctly we passed the 4th door and killed him the first time we were actually on him.<br /><br />I would like to think, even if I do not like being a raid leader and never wanted the job, that I have done well in the position. But of course I am bias, of course I would say I did well. lol<br /><br />I've been looking for a replacement since cataclysm. I want to pass the team over to someone else and just play again. Not lead. But there is no one I think is capable of leading the team. I just can not up and leave them but honestly, it is something I need to consider doing sooner or later. I do not seek heroic progression. Normals are fine with me but I feel I should be clearing ToT by now and not be where I am way behind that. It is a sense of duty that keeps me doing it but it is that same sense of duty that might very well just cause me to quit.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-33002652278573102982013-06-04T06:57:12.557-04:002013-06-04T06:57:12.557-04:00It is worse than mid pack. While your server migh...It is worse than mid pack. While your server might have been a 50% one a month ago (when I checked this) yours has caught up. Mine has not sadly. Not enough people on the server to make many guilds, nevertheless decent ones.<br /><br />Ulduar got the shaft, best raid ever, shortest life ever. ToC came out way to fast and was horrible, even more so coming from Ulduar. The gear thing, as you mentioned, made it a no brainer to abandon Ulduar and that is said.<br /><br />I ended up finishing it up in late wrath, even did all the hard modes then. Really would have liked to have finished it when it was current but ToC came out and we had to move on while we were only 10 bosses in.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-25999567922286374122013-06-04T04:32:00.239-04:002013-06-04T04:32:00.239-04:00Lockouts killed a lot of the normal-mode raiding a...Lockouts killed a lot of the normal-mode raiding actually. A non hardcore, but still progress-oriented guild would usually use 10m for progress and 25m for the rest of the guild to feel involved. <br />We can pull 12/12 with a 25-m from our heroic raiders and the rest of the guild pretty easily, on their own, the rest of the people still have issues on the first 6 bosses. <br /><br />Also, aside from what numbers you see on statistics, a lot of raiders stopped raiding. A lot of proper progression guilds disbanded. Some tried to move and never reformed right on other realm. I've seen Quantum (Fatboss) die under my eyes on my realm. What's left - is not a lot of quality raiders on many of the realms (especially the low pop ones). Raids try to make do with what they have, but how many have its original players on? How many of the newer raiders understand and want progression and are willing to research? You speak of difficulty... I had both arms broken and I still get by, I didn't get better, I got worse, my reflexes aren't what they used to be. <br />Back when there was no LFR, if people wanted to get better gear and see the raids, they had to work to being good raiders. What incentive is there now? Loads of people who have no idea how to use personal cooldowns, helathstones and so on. People don't know how to change playstyle according to boss. Adds need killing and they start explaining how their spec isn't good for them so they just single target the boss and it makes sense to them. They don't know how to chain CC right, they don't understand positioning debuffs.<br /><br />They also hurried content so people that were slower didn't really get geared before ToT and wanted to do ToT. Our 3rd raid group - they have two crappy tanks with bad gear and inappropriate class and they want to solo Durumu and other bosses because I do it. People have lost capability to judge and adapt. Raid leaders, proper raid leaders is also what's missing. A raid leader doesn't just say tactics, a raid leader is responsible to adapt tacts to the team and you see less and less raid leaders capable or better yet willing to do step up and do that. I still blame low pop realms, not enough people to choose from.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18173436197557929355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-16892733251271163882013-06-03T16:03:36.117-04:002013-06-03T16:03:36.117-04:00Actually, I skimmed through the comments a bit and...Actually, I skimmed through the comments a bit and someone pointed out that kills aren't tracked after a new tier comes out so his old data may actually be more accurate that I'd originally thought.<br /><br />I didn't see him taking a lot of heat but I didn't read particularly far into the comments. The problem with posting something like that on MMO-C (or EJ) is that you're posting both to folks who should be able to understand the data (the upside) but also to folks who are probably significantly better than average (the downside). As soon as folks start talking personal experience it completely invalidates the point of the post.<br /><br />On my server (which is, at best, mid-pack), 32 have killed the first boss, 25 have killed Horridon, so we closely mirror the worldwide results (78% on our server vs 80% globally). Your server may just be an outlier... or may be significantly worse than mid-pack.<br /><br />As for my personal experiences, my Wrath raid group didn't really form until relatively late in the Ulduar patch cycle so we hadn't gotten very far when ToC came out and we immediately flipped over (i232 vs i219? No-brainer!). Never really went back to Ulduar until much later in the expansion and I don't think we actually cleared it until mid-Cat during a retro "man, did we ever actually finish Ulduar?" run to take a break from, I think, FL at that point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-31275510972946932912013-06-03T13:04:36.058-04:002013-06-03T13:04:36.058-04:0048 guilds on my server have killed the first boss....48 guilds on my server have killed the first boss. 9 have killed the second. We were the 8th.<br /><br />That is what I am getting at.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-39939613073719972232013-06-03T13:03:38.730-04:002013-06-03T13:03:38.730-04:00Also. the 50% data I took was from looking at serv...Also. the 50% data I took was from looking at servers around my level in progression. I am sure once you add the high end servers that get more done it changes. But servers in my area only about 50% have downed them. I looked at the localized level of skill, he looked at the over all.<br /><br />Both showed the same thing. Horridon is horrible.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-5358705765209975542013-06-03T13:01:54.565-04:002013-06-03T13:01:54.565-04:00Yes, I read it when he first posted it and saw it ...Yes, I read it when he first posted it and saw it on his blog directing people over to that discussion.<br /><br />I understand the people complaining about his numbers but they are missing the big picture. His "drop off" numbers are still correct even if they include the 30% buff. There is still a drop off, and that still shows the trend, 30% easier or not.<br /><br />He is taking a lot of heat and I feel for him. His intention is good and his data is perfect. He probably would have been better including the mid tiers like ulduar and firelands. Mimron was my wall in ulduar. lolTheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-41704033909201256682013-06-03T12:20:16.140-04:002013-06-03T12:20:16.140-04:00Grumpy, have you seen this yet?
http://www.mmo-ch...Grumpy, have you seen this yet?<br /><br />http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1304374-WotLK-to-MoP-A-Trend-Analysis-of-Raiding-Difficulty<br /><br />I'm viewing this mostly in a "preaching to the choir" way but it's only showing a 20% decline in kills for Horridon at this point... that's still massive on a long-term scale (that's worse than the entire DS raid) but better than 50%. :)<br /><br />I just wish he had snapshot data of how the numbers looked when each new raid tier came out... his numbers are tained by people going back and finishing stuff off afterward. It's hard to predict how much that skews the old numbers but I suspect it's significant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-54102103133359810912013-06-02T14:01:21.204-04:002013-06-02T14:01:21.204-04:00I keep getting the feeling that they are trying to...I keep getting the feeling that they are trying to do away with normal modes as well. Sucks for people like me who actually like them. Actually, it sucks for the majority of casual raiders if you look at the numbers.<br /><br />@Netherlands<br /><br />I think the guild thing is why I keep getting people say they would join my 25, but not join the guild. They just do not want to leave their reputation and guild they earn it with behind. Not sure if is huge in therms of how it effects raiding, but it does some.<br /><br />@ Jaeger<br /><br />I heard so many great things about convert to raid and when I finally got to meet one if its members, it is in an LFR and you know those LFR assholes I talk about? Well, he was their king.<br /><br />I really hope that guild does not support that type of stuff. An organized group of trolls is the last thing this game needs.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-61377078407979788052013-06-02T10:52:19.635-04:002013-06-02T10:52:19.635-04:00I'm not sure that hurts raiding though. I'...I'm not sure that hurts raiding though. I've been seeing some groups try to create these MEGA-guilds, like ConvertToRaid. Gamebreaker is trying soon it seems with GamebreakerNation, etc. So larger communities seem to result in more organized group content (who would have thought, right!)...<br /><br />OpenRaid seems to be helping as well but it's only for older content which really limits it's impact.<br />Jaegernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-81374381984641734322013-06-02T06:07:08.761-04:002013-06-02T06:07:08.761-04:00Adding to your excellent post, I know this one goe...Adding to your excellent post, I know this one goes back to Cata but the Guild Perk system hurt small Guilds a lot, with the MoP changes it is somewhat more easy to 'catch up' (but still IMO too hard for Guilds that just want to get the Perks relavant to their gameplay like the looms) but still most people prefer to join a 25 Guild with all the perks out.<br /><br />Not saying it is a major cause but I can imagine it not exactly helping, either.NetherLandsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-72788936090780583532013-06-02T01:00:15.592-04:002013-06-02T01:00:15.592-04:00I can't help the impression that Blizz wants t...I can't help the impression that Blizz wants to kill normal raiding. LFR for the go ....<br /><br />Otherwise - why put in 2 bosses that are fairly hard - in many ways harder then anything else for the tier - right at the start? <br /><br />And you and dead on regarding being overwhelmed. It's not only the mechanics, it's also the graphics - AND Blizzard admits to design raids with DeadlyBoss mods in mind!<br /><br />So you design a normal raid difficulty assuming someone else will create an addon that makes the raid possible in the first place<br /><br />I'm here at loss how incompetent you can be in game design and still have 8+ million subscribers<br /><br />Rauxis, chosen of CATRauxisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-63868403415043834172013-06-01T12:07:09.250-04:002013-06-01T12:07:09.250-04:00I don't raid for gear either, although I do li...I don't raid for gear either, although I do like it of course, but you know how it is. Some do, many do even. It is their main motivation. They would be afraid it would allow people to get their gear to quick and they would lose interest in the game.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-64168774839179099992013-06-01T08:32:13.823-04:002013-06-01T08:32:13.823-04:00Yeah, I'm sure they'd come up with an excu...Yeah, I'm sure they'd come up with an excuse. However, I'm suprised that they added the charms for extra loot to regular raids. It's possible they could go the LFR loot route and that would remove some of their excuses for raid locks.<br /><br />Personally, I don't raid for gear. It's nice to get gear of course, but I'm decently geared from valor, lfr, etc.<br /><br />I raid to have fun with friends, but it has to be fun. Banging our head against a wall or dealing with one-shot-wipe mechanics are not fun...<br /><br />With RL stuff and all the stuff in game, I'm basically one of the raiders who just dropped down to LFR. My life doesn't fit with the guild's raiding schedules anymore. I would have to change servers if I wanted to get back into raiding and I'm not really interested in doing that...Jaegernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-77152696756699851872013-05-31T20:20:03.544-04:002013-05-31T20:20:03.544-04:00I think you were with better people than you give ...I think you were with better people than you give yourself or them credit for. 4/6 2/6 0/4 are the numbers that most raiders finished the first tier with. If you were at that with a lot of roster issues it puts you ahead of the masses.<br /><br />Or maybe it is just the really horrible players on my server that give me a tainted view of my own. Heck, even in DS pugs on my server could only down the first boss most of the time.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-81864402439601275912013-05-31T20:14:33.070-04:002013-05-31T20:14:33.070-04:00That would be an amazing idea. How can we get bli...That would be an amazing idea. How can we get blizzard to actually consider that?<br /><br />I know what they will say however. They do not want to do it because it would help people who try to sell clears and that is against the spirit of the game.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-52094165352941256012013-05-31T17:40:36.185-04:002013-05-31T17:40:36.185-04:00Definitely agree. I'd be much more willing to...Definitely agree. I'd be much more willing to jump in a pug if that didn't lock me out to help a guild group later in the week. I doubt the pug will clear the raid anyways and I may not get into a guild group later. Better to get a couple kills in than nothing, especially if I can still help the guild in case they need someone to fill in.Jaegernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-43788031154486538652013-05-31T16:23:29.362-04:002013-05-31T16:23:29.362-04:00I want to argue but I can't. I agree with you ...I want to argue but I can't. I agree with you in terms of everyone else I suppose. You said that "Someone new to the game will have a harder time breaking into raiding then you or I did." and I do want to argue with this as from a personal standpoint I haven't found that for me.<br /><br />I started raiding for real in Dragon Soul, which is acknowledged I think as one of the easier raids in recent times. It was the raid that gave 'casual' guilds a taste of heroic kills as they managed to progress so well in it. I'd done the odd raid before that but nothing regular, nothing where I wasn't joining an established team and could therefore 'be carried' though I do hope that wasn't the case. I was also a healer then, a holy paladin, so I spent fights looking at the green bar, and as it was Dragon Soul not a lot else.<br /><br />Then Mists was released and I swapped to tanking. I put together a brand new raid team, some people I knew and others I didn't, we certainly weren't experienced with working together. So I'm a fairly inexperienced raider really, only got Dragon Soul under my belt and in a different role, taking on Stone Guard. We wiped for one night before we killed it and yes that was with Jasper Chains. I wouldn't say that the people in the group were good, at least one had never set foot in any kind of raid before.<br /><br />So yeah basically I want to argue about difficulty I really do. Perhaps that's my tainted vision at work. Maybe the people around me are more skilled than I give them credit for. I don't think that we are anything special. I certainly don't think I'm anything special. I do my research, do my best and always try to do better but that isn't special either, it's just being a team player. You have to do your best when in a team.<br /><br />In T14 I was 4/6 MSV and 2/6 HoF because of roster trouble. I was perfectly comfortable with the fights when I had 10 people to raid with. I didn't think the difficulty was too high for normal. I don't feel that I was roadblocked by difficulty, more by lack of personnel. However, statistics rule, if people were blocked by difficulty, and I'm very annoyed by the lack of normal mode achievement myself, then yeah they should change it maybe. I don't want to go back to Dragon Soul easy, I like these raids, but you are right I guess, it's a middle ground thing. Rather than 7/10 it should be 5/10 so not too easy just more forgiving.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17771213542953346538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-7013961189781020562013-05-31T16:01:44.023-04:002013-05-31T16:01:44.023-04:00Thank you.
If I were a wizard I would magically g...Thank you.<br /><br />If I were a wizard I would magically get them to fix it but I am a hunter so we are screwed.<br /><br />Anyone know a mage?TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.com