tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post1928676522693906399..comments2024-03-27T07:57:48.010-04:00Comments on The Grumpy Elf: I've An Issue With Item LevelTheGrumpyElfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-38495056731486361662013-06-28T10:25:15.540-04:002013-06-28T10:25:15.540-04:00That is a nice idea adding something like that to ...That is a nice idea adding something like that to the proving grounds but people would cry if you asked for 100% perfection.<br /><br />What about lag, or computer issues, or things beyond the players control.<br /><br />Heck, I like to fancy myself a decent player and I doubt I have ever hit 100% of my potential. Sure, I have done more than my maximum potential a few times here or there but that was due to lucky crits, not be being perfect.<br /><br />So it is a good idea, but I doubt it would work. To many variables.<br /><br />However, an efficiency rating of sorts would be nice. As long as they did not add a reward to it. If they do, the forums would flood from the tears of people that were not capable of getting their reward.<br /><br />Just my opinion of course, but I do have a very low opinion of those community.<br /><br />Tanks and healers are much harder to judge that way. It is so true. Damage dealers are simple to judge. How much damage do you do. Tanks and healers are complex creatures by design.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-85968467848601024992013-06-28T03:12:55.848-04:002013-06-28T03:12:55.848-04:00@Grumpy's GL, That efficiency rating idea gave...@Grumpy's GL, That efficiency rating idea gave me a brainwave.For people who log the fights or are in the guild that do logs, you can check them on raidbots/epeenbot, but its not that useful for an average joe pug. But in next patch proving grounds coming out in which a dps/tank/healer fights against waves of enemies. What if blizzard designs another proving ground which is basically a patchwork fight and it calculates your effiency rating and attach a freebie 553(or whatever ilvl item are from normal SoO) item if you reach 100% efficeiny rating, and show this rating on armory along with ilvl. This way players will be tempted to meet that rating for the reward and get rated on armory and you can inspect them and see if the person can at least do the dps rotation properly.<br />@grumpy, i know my idea only works for dps and i can not even begin to think how to rate a healer or tanks's efficiency. But as you have said this before, dps are the most important part of the raid , and even with extermely good tanks and healers you cant down a boss if your dps are bad. So its my attempt at solving the problem partially.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-67339211670762647852013-06-26T10:26:48.629-04:002013-06-26T10:26:48.629-04:00That would be a fantastic addon to have. However ...That would be a fantastic addon to have. However I could pick apart a lot of reasons why it would not be perfect in many situations. <br /><br />One being it can not accurately judge healers and tanks. Healers can only heal as much as people are hurt so they can not be judged on numbers only. And even when you do, they could be healing the wrong person, as in neglecting the tank and taking chances just to get some heals on a DPS that they know will up their numbers. What about the tank that takes the full hits from something he could have used a cooldown on? Would he lost points? I let horridon hit me clear out about 3 or 4 times before I use a cooldown because I know I am better off using them for the higher stacks.<br /><br />Even for damage dealers, I know you have not raided at all this expansion but the first boss has a mechanic that if you stand in a certain place in increases damage but people are always be chased from that place. So if someone gets unlucky and chased a million times their damage would be mush lower than it could have been and someone that was never chased might not be as good but having the boost all the time would make them appear better than they are.<br /><br />Yes, the idea is awesome. I would love to see an effective rating for a character, but it is not practice in game really.<br /><br />If you wanted to do some actual inspection world of logs are still the best way to judge someone, but that required they make logs and supply them. It is not as simple as just looking at an item level like we have all become used to doing.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-64268141965574862372013-06-26T07:25:11.600-04:002013-06-26T07:25:11.600-04:00Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:
As far as...Anon, Grumpy's former Guild Leader:<br /><br />As far as a better measurement goes, the one that would be most useful would be an efficiency rating (ER). The ER rating is a player's percentage of actual damage assessed against the player's potential number. A 30% rating obviously is less effective than a 80% rating. <br /><br />The game has mathmetical limits on the amount of damage that can be done in a set amount of time. Use the maximum possible damage as the 100% benchmark and the actual damage done as the percentage rating. <br /><br />As the duration of a fight varies, the actual damage done would be measured against the maximum possible damage for that duration of time. Obviously, dieing limits the opportunity to do damage, so the ER would encourage better play in a baseball bat type of subtleness. The one hit wonder who does 250k dps and dies one minute into a 10 minute fight would show very poorly in terms of efficiency. Death is the usual results when a player does not follow the game plan and the ER meter would show who was doing poorly by dieing early when comparing DPS to ER. <br /><br />Now, not being a programmer nor an add-on developer, I have no idea how hard it would be to establish such a meter, but I would think that would be the single best measure of a player. I certainly think it would be better than using ilevel or gear score or achievement links to quickly determine the worth of a player. Of course no single score would ever be a true measure of everything. The use of ilevel has value for quickly and rationally assuming a 510 ilevel will have a heck of a lot more health than a 480 ilevel character. <br /><br />So an ER %, with ilevel would give maybe the best snapshot judgement for any given player. So with three players looking to fill the last space, one at 77%, ilevel 480, a second player at 55%, ilevel 504, and the third player at 58%, ilevel 520, you would have some idea of who to pick. The third player will have the most health and plays slightly better than player two but not nearly as well as player one. Unfortunately player one is undergeared, so you rather use player one over two clearly, but not so clearly when compared to three. Can player one withstand single blow kills as player three can? If player one can stay alive, then one is the obvious choice as going along with 77% ER will only get better as the ilevel rise, even if the percentage never rises. If player one won't survive single blow kills, then player three will be the better choice as the staying alive part is important too. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-74787793993925306752013-06-26T06:49:56.287-04:002013-06-26T06:49:56.287-04:00If he has arch up, I've noticed many don't...If he has arch up, I've noticed many don't. But yes, it is a good suggestion. If we could send it cross server I would send it to my leveling alt hunters. It is a sweet looking gun too.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-56551079397677787552013-06-26T06:47:25.535-04:002013-06-26T06:47:25.535-04:00That is what I am talking about however. Everyone...That is what I am talking about however. Everyone can get to 520 without even stepping in the raid. So item level means nothing.<br /><br />James, while he is correct, is using an extreme example.<br /><br />Given two people of equal item level who would you choose from his example?<br /><br />Player 1: Tank here, 520 ilvl.<br />Player 2: Tank here, know fights.<br /><br />I would follow up by asking the tank what his item level is. As I said, it still shows their potential. If he says 520 as well, and if he has tanked it before, I do not even bother asking player one a follow up question. Anyone that leads with their item level has nothing to offer except that. Item level is not your characters self worth. Never has been and never will be.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-29680953893858234942013-06-26T06:44:02.721-04:002013-06-26T06:44:02.721-04:00I agree with you 100%. In the example you give it...I agree with you 100%. In the example you give it is clear which one you would choose because it reached a certain item level that can only be attained by doing heroics. If someone can do heroics you have to guess the likelihood they are better than someone else is pretty high. Yes, they could have been carried but those are few and far between for the most part and even if they were heroic carried they would probably still be better than someone else with no skills.<br /><br />But two things I would like to point out.<br /><br />1) You are talking an extreme example. While it is possible to get 535 with only normals if you have the legendary back and all the possible thunderforged pieces it will still show you needed a certain level a skill to get to it. You are talking the top 2% of the player base, maybe even top 1%. My example is meant to show the average player based on item level, not to compare the elite.<br /><br />2) Lets lower your paladin to a more reasonable for the average player number. Call it 520. A paladin says he is 520 and nothing else and the DK says he knows all fights. I will ask the DK a follow up question first. Have you ever tanked it and what is your item level. The person that leads with their item level has nothing to offer except that. Sorry, but you can get to a 520 item level never having stepped into a raid. The person that says they know all the fights would interest me more than the person that thinks he is elite because he has an item level you can get when never stepping into the raid.<br /><br />When you push the item levels to extremes they do mean more by themselves alone.<br /><br />Saying you are 435 means you are just heroic dungeon ready, no matter what your skill level you can not do current raid content. Saying you are 535 means you are near the top 1% of players in the game and reach an item level that shows you had to down stuff.<br /><br />Both are extreme ends of the spectrum.<br /><br />I am talking about comparing two melee who want to join my raid, one 526 and one 516. The 526 one does not mean he is better. Trust me, I have seen it. I've had a 526 item level person not be able to break 80K single target and I have a 516 feral druid on my team that can break 150K on single target without breaking a sweat.<br /><br />Skill > Item levelTheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-50388133839921112952013-06-26T05:16:49.326-04:002013-06-26T05:16:49.326-04:00@James, perfectly summed up my thoughts , it depen...@James, perfectly summed up my thoughts , it depends on what ilvl someone is throwing around, 520ish is attainable by every tom dick and harry in 5.3 counting all the valor rep gear and vp upgrades and considering 510 crafted+upgraded weapon and a 484 relic + vp trinket. Anyone without stepping into normal mode tot can have a 525 something ilvl and its not a representative of skill, just pure dedication to grinding gear. If someone is in 535-540 range then they probably have downed 3-4 hc bosses atleast. And however you wanna spin it you cant get carried in Heroic mode ToT (few exceptions being buying a boost run from top 100 guild). <br />So ilevel represent the summary of gear , in one 3-digit number , you can judge if that person is a lfr/casual player , normal mode player or heroic player. Just that the boundaries between the ilvls of a lucky lfr/casual and a unlucky normal mode raider are bit vague.<br />Now how good you are at reaching the potential maximum of gear depends on what category you belong to. There will be a lot more variance in the LFR/Casual crowd, bit lesser but still significant in normal mode, but for those clearing/progressing heroic modes, most of them will be meeting the simmed dps , with few odd ones at 70-80% of that.<br />TLDR- ilvl do work as a measure of skill , depending on what value you are looking at.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-85893212111353324822013-06-26T02:51:23.516-04:002013-06-26T02:51:23.516-04:00Let's say you were doing some raid last day be...Let's say you were doing some raid last day before reset and needed to pug a tank. Say you get two whispers. One is 'Hello. You still need a tank? Paladin here, iLvl 535'. The other one is 'Hi. DK tank if you still need me, know all the fights, I can link achievements if needed'.<br /><br />My question is: which would you choose?<br /><br />I may be any of the two. My paladin main. My DK alt. So DK has achis from main. May very well be from a healer perspective, you wouldn't know. DK is undergeared. Which you wouldn't know either unless you checked me or my Armory. While throwing my iLvl should probably mean something. <br />That I know mormals and even most heroics in and out. That I can probably survive an entire fight without any direct heals, a beacon or something and I'm set. That I count as an extra healer in the raid and something like having more than two healers on Tortos would be overkill. That I have like 800k health on buffs in haste gear and I can cover for anything, I can even solo all your fights, Megaera included. <br /><br />Sometimes, iLvl just wraps up what you did do, not only what you could do, is all I want to say.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18173436197557929355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-51000352130671446012013-06-26T02:02:21.536-04:002013-06-26T02:02:21.536-04:00When bringing someone with a lower iLvl there'...When bringing someone with a lower iLvl there's one boss we worry about: Horridon. Last phase, the aoe does 500k flat. If no priest in the group, you better have some personal mitigation or an immunity.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18173436197557929355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-21414385098462663672013-06-26T01:56:49.508-04:002013-06-26T01:56:49.508-04:00At least get the Archeology gun and upgrade it to ...At least get the Archeology gun and upgrade it to 471. Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18173436197557929355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-85276396697340774582013-06-25T21:28:18.607-04:002013-06-25T21:28:18.607-04:00aye, thats why there is beer!aye, thats why there is beer!-abhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14899567485973250660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-37452040583881225692013-06-25T20:12:13.481-04:002013-06-25T20:12:13.481-04:00If we did not judge people by item level it would ...If we did not judge people by item level it would be gear score or achievements, or what have you. It is human nature to pre judge people on what otherwise might be seen as imperfect data.<br /><br />Sad but true.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-89855864722596690842013-06-25T20:10:29.825-04:002013-06-25T20:10:29.825-04:00I compete to push myself in the LFR as well. I li...I compete to push myself in the LFR as well. I like to look at what others do so if they do better I can try to pick out why and then learn from it. LFR might be a joke but used in the right hands I do believe it can be a very useful tool.<br /><br />You mentioned health pool and I totally over looked that as a meaningful factor. You re indeed correct. Sometimes you just need that extra gear for the extra health.<br /><br />That is why we usually 3 heal. No offense to them but our healers are not exactly great yet our DPS is well above average. So having that extra healer really allows us to get further than I think we would with only 2. I know we would never have passed horridon trying to two heal it. I have no doubts about that.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-23106420233543574682013-06-25T20:04:24.917-04:002013-06-25T20:04:24.917-04:00That is all about the weapon really. I did it as ...That is all about the weapon really. I did it as BM, so it was not just auto shot, my pet was doing a fair bit of damage. I meant it as all I did myself was auto shoot. So combined with my pet it was 38K. But still, I did have a much much better weapon and weapons do really make that much of a difference.<br /><br />If you are 480 with a 450 gun and doing 45K you are doing quite reasonable. Even getting a 463 weapon you will see a marked increase.<br /><br />Good luck getting a weapon. It means a lot.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-60708480872406482212013-06-25T18:44:53.520-04:002013-06-25T18:44:53.520-04:00well, I guess. :D I'll never see 460, until a...well, I guess. :D I'll never see 460, until a new addon comes out and the green gear is rated at 560. <br /><br />It matters in raids because that is how Blizzard has deemed it - it's your ticket to get into their raiding area. <br /><br />Certain raids require one to gather higher level equipment to be able to go into the raids and have a chance to survive. <br /><br />But as with all things humans (players) do, these ilevels have become the new standards of how well one player is and unfortunately one is now judge in their ability. That's not good. <br /><br />to recap - There is nothing to be done about it, because right or wrong, it is what Blizzard introduced as a limiting factor in raiding. <br /><br />Not their fault players have used it as a prejudicial way of judging others and their abilities in the game.<br /><br />as always,<br /><br /><i>"stay frosty..."</i><br />-roo-abhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14899567485973250660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-75702121476790080842013-06-25T17:17:32.087-04:002013-06-25T17:17:32.087-04:00There is one other reason why I'd generally pr...There is one other reason why I'd generally prefer bringing someone in with better gear that also indirectly ties into health... they simply have more of it, possibly significantly more. You'd be surprised how much this matters. My normal raiding toon has about 470K unbuffed health and is usually one of the last to die. I had a chance to run an i500ish alt with a very good and geared (i530+) raid group recently, they were more concerned about having someone in who knew the fights and had enough gear to contribute, they were willing to compensate for my lower dps than they're used to. Seemed perfect. Except...<br /><br />Man, the deaths. All over the place, most entirely out of my control (most, not all). Their healers were used to their dps having 550K health... my 400K health was an issue, I was dying to hits that their guys could survive. I was also on a toon without any real way of keeping myself alive so there also wasn't much I could do about it, I was just doing as much damage as I could before the inevitable boom. Absolutely seriously, I'd have been more useful to them that run if I'd gemmed and enchanted full Stamina on that toon, I'd likely have done more overall damage at the end of the night despite doing lower dps. Still, they managed to down the bosses they wanted to down so I didn't actually cost them anything but I felt really bad at the end of the run. iLvl definitely can matter, even in ways you might not immediately think of.<br /><br />Side note - we also downed a heroic boss that run, technically making my somewhat undergeared alt my first heroic toon. If anyone suggests that linked achievements is a reason to consider someone worthy of joining a run rather than iLvl, consider this a solid counter-example. There really is no way to tell how good someone is, iLvl is really the only tool that can be used to differentiate players, flawed though it may be.<br /><br />As for 2-healing, I can say with personal experience that the first 7 bosses CAN be 2-healed with a very good group and the first 4 with a good group. I prefer 3-healing with good dps, though, that 3rd healer gives a nice safety buffer, 50% more potential healing with a 20% loss in dps. It's a trade-off that generally works, I think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-46163181198753108142013-06-25T17:13:31.423-04:002013-06-25T17:13:31.423-04:00@Anon
The 38K he mentioned was mentioned later to...@Anon<br /><br />The 38K he mentioned was mentioned later to be unusually high and would depend heavily on the spec you're running. Your i450 gun is what's holding you back at i480.<br /><br />Note: I believe the only efficiency that AMR mentions is based on optimal gems/enchants/reforges and has nothing to do with dps efficiency, for that you'd need something like SimC or one of the various class-specific tools (Zeherah is the hunter one, I think).<br /><br />@Grumpy<br /><br />Where to start. :)<br /><br />I agree that iLvl isn't a good determination of whether they'll be of any use to you or not but it does speak to two things... they've put the time and effort in to gear up (in theory) and they have higher dps potential than someone else. You addressed the second point well so I won't go further and the effort argument may or may not mean anything but generally speaking, if I know nothing else about two people, I'd take one in i520 over one in i480. It's a gamble but if they play equally well the i520 will be the better risk.<br /><br />Because of the difference in importance between different gear slots (weapons > trinkets > chest/helm/legs > etc) and tier vs non-tier I don't generally worry too much about iLvl. When I'm looking to quickly size someone up in LFR (say, I'm running #2 and he's #1 and I'm trying to figure out if I have a chance of beating him on future bosses... yeah, I compete to amuse myself), I'll look at two things... weapons and health. I find a health delta of 40K+ is significant gear-wise, a singled upgraded slot will usually get you 3-5K depending on the size of the upgrade... 100K+ is massive. If I'm hanging with someone 40K+ above me I'm happy, if I'm hanging with someone 100K+ above me he's slacking off. NOTE - this doesn't apply to Warlocks in particular if they're using Sac and assumes everyone is buffed equally. Yeah, some classes have a bit more health than others at the same iLvl but it's a decent guideline without being overly picky and it's easy to tell at a glance since I don't run any sort of mouseover gearscore add-on.<br /><br />I'm looking for a mix of potential and efficiency when evaluating someone... gear potential is useful but efficiency is better, especially since upgrades for an undergeared but very efficient player will give you the biggest impact per upgrade. You want to have enough dps/hps/tank health to down the content but bringing efficient players is generally beneficial whenever you can determine their level of play in advance or from previous runs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9015737272343810105.post-11677220612540264072013-06-25T16:23:31.490-04:002013-06-25T16:23:31.490-04:00I have a painful question. You had mentioned once...I have a painful question. You had mentioned once on one of your toons doing 38k on autoshot. I am Ilevel 480 and mr robot said doing it myself i was at 92% efficiency! my autoshot does 16k.... No matter how hard i play i cannt break 45k damage and i am wondering: can your damage never theoretically get over a certain percentage higher than your autoshot? In other words: if my auto is 16k then am i already so broken I cannot hope to succeed without new gear? My hunter weapon is a 450 - no luck in LRF on a new one yet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com